COVID-19 has created a situation where we need to social distance. But how to you social distance and protect patients in Inpatient Recovery Facilities?
In this episode we talk to Mandy Baker, MS, LCDC and Chief Clinical Officer for the BRC Recovery Family of Programs, in Austin, TX. Mandy joins us to discuss how COVID-19 has impacted the recovery center including patients, staff, and family. Obviously close quarters is a concern, testing new patients as they come in, and pivoting on some of the treatments strategies.
Tune into this episode to see COVID-19 and Recovery Centers Through a Therapist’s Eyes!
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Listen to Episode #89 – Epidemic related issues with Inpatient Care
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Episode #89 Transcription
Craig Graves: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode 89 of the, Through a Therapist’s Eyes podcast. Chris, my friend, how are you doing today?
Chris Gadzik: [00:00:09] I’m doing all right, man. From the Charlotte North Carolina area. I think we’ve got episode 88 though, man.
Craig Graves: [00:00:14] I think you’re all for one.
Chris Gadzik: [00:00:15] I think I’m all for it. I’m usually off, but what can I say?
Craig Graves: [00:00:20] You definitely are
Chris Gadzik: [00:00:22] through a therapist, eyes, the podcast coming to you again.
He is Craig. I am Chris, where we invite you to see the world through the lens of a mental health and substance abuse therapist. The gold create emotional growth through the medium of this podcast. Being aware it’s not the delivery of therapy services in any way, feedback and discussion on through a therapist, throughatherapistseyes.com, a little foreshadowing for our audience.
We’re going to be doing some new things on there. Stay tuned, stay interested. It’s going to be different soon. I’m willing to say mr. Graves, this is the human emotional experience. What shall we do?
Craig Graves: [00:01:00] Figure it out together.
Chris Gadzik: [00:01:01] All right. So we are a, what is this since you’re good with numbers, sir? What is this?
The fourth, fifth, six different coronavirus special edition.
Craig Graves: [00:01:11] I think it’s about five. Yeah, I think this is the fifth one. Yeah,
Chris Gadzik: [00:01:14] we got a, we got a good one, I think today on, um, and aspect that, you know, I haven’t heard mentioned at all in the news man. The reality of it is people have talked about 12 step meetings and stuff.
You heard people kind of whisper about that and how’s the complicated factor.
Craig Graves: [00:01:32] I haven’t heard that in relation to the, to the quarantine or the virus.
Chris Gadzik: [00:01:35] So you haven’t even heard that. And I mean, it’s so it’s, it gets so buried, man. Well, how about residential treatment facilities for substance abusers and how that’s being affected by said here Covid19.
Craig Graves: [00:01:48] I haven’t heard much about that either. To be honest with you, it’s
Chris Gadzik: [00:01:51] buried, man.
Craig Graves: [00:01:52] It’s been, I can imagine that’s a big deal, but I haven’t heard anything about
Chris Gadzik: [00:01:55] it. And you know, one of the things I’ve liked about this coronavirus step two is we’ve had a. You know, kind of a lot of things, several different guests, and I’m enjoying having kind of a flurry of guests coming in to deal with it.
Would you believe we got another one, man?
Craig Graves: [00:02:07] I can believe it. You believe it?
Chris Gadzik: [00:02:10] We have miss Amanda. Kay. Otherwise I guess ma’am, you’re known as Mandy, is that right?
Mandy Baker: [00:02:16] That’s what my friends call me. Yes.
Chris Gadzik: [00:02:19] Um, Mandy Baker, uh, M S and she has an LCDC Craig over the nation. We have all these kinds of different letters behind her name.
I’m not even sure which one that one is because you’re in Texas. Is that right?
Mandy Baker: [00:02:29] I am in Texas, Austin, Texas from BRC recovery.
Chris Gadzik: [00:02:34] Sweet. And that is LCDC. What is that? I don’t even know. And I’m in the field
Mandy Baker: [00:02:38] is the chemical dependency counselor certification here in the state, kind of like a K doc or. Uh, you know, I’m not even sure what it is, where you guys are.
Um,
Chris Gadzik: [00:02:48] it LCSW and LPC and we have LCS. I mean, it’s crazy. You know, it’s funny. I actually was sitting there with a doctor at one point in a marketing thing years ago and I actually, Oh my God, I felt horrible because he asked me that question. What are the letters, mean that I’d looked at him? I was like, uh, I forget.
I said something that I just, I just wilted, like, you know, I gave a very poor answer. I’ll just say that it’s embarrassing. Anyway. So she is, um, the Craig, the chief clinical officer for BRC recovery, family of programs also formally has done so many other things, uh, CEO of the ranch at, uh, dove tree. Uh, the vice president of clinical services is origins recovery center, cofounder and clinical director of Winhaven counseling center.
And, uh, it gets more interesting Craig prior to her career and all that treatment industry stuff. Um, associate’s director for grants and special projects at the nationally recognized center for the study of addiction and recovery. More letters, Craig, you ready for this? C S a R anyway, she worked as the lead project manager for the efforts to implement recovery services systems, to institutions of higher education across the nation.
Really that’s gotta be some cool stuff, man.
Mandy Baker: [00:04:06] That was a lot of fun
Chris Gadzik: [00:04:08] research. For grant writing. Yes. Uh, with our colleagues at Texas tech, Mandy, uh, manage the development and multiple recovery support systems and colleges and universities across the nation, their work sparked the recovery campus movement, which has significantly impact the ways in which colleges and universities address addiction recovery.
On their campuses. So her deep understanding and study of the 18 to 27 year old demographic resulted in numerous publications, academic journals, books, curricula, and popular press outlets. Mandy, I like to say, I love to meet researchers and people into research because I hate that stuff, but it’s so valuable.
Mandy Baker: [00:04:44] Absolutely. You know, you can either like it or, you don’t,
Chris Gadzik: [00:04:49] I’m in the don’t category. I’m clinician. I like to talk to people too much in the research, but I love it. Thank you for all the work that you’ve done. Seriously. That sounds very impressive. It is super cool to have you on the show. Uh, how did I do with that?
And what did I miss?
Mandy Baker: [00:05:02] You know, not a lot. It’s always one of those things. When you hear your bio read or an introduction of that sort, and it starts to feel a little embarrassing after a minute. So I’m not really honored to be here. And thank you guys so much for having me on.
Chris Gadzik: [00:05:19] Yeah. You know, we, um, we met recently, I think on LinkedIn in some way.
And, uh, another sort of plug for the audience. I think that we have, uh, another one of your colleagues that’s going to be joining us. You guys are actually, I mean, Craig, these guys are plugged in, in, in a certain way. Not like he’s, um, You know, super authority or anything, but he’s pretty, pretty well accomplished.
I would have to say, but you guys have worked with, you know, dr. Phil and the BRC recovery network seems to be, um, really a pretty good leader in, in what you got. What we do in treatment is that, is that, uh, how long you guys been around and tell us a little bit about, um, uh, BRC.
Mandy Baker: [00:05:52] Yeah. So the BRC family of programs is, um, actually, uh, four different programs that are all located kind of throughout the greater Austin area.
Um, and they started out with, with one campus, uh, which was originally known as Mark Houston recovery center. And Mark Houston is, uh, a well known entity in the 12 step world, um, and started, um, A men’s only treatment facility. And since then we’ve added a women’s program to that. Um, we’ve added a young adult male program.
We’ve added a trauma intensive program. Um, and then we have added, um, a constellation of aftercare support services through what we call segway, um, all throughout the Austin area. So we have about 200 beds under management, uh, in the greater Austin area. Um, you know, we really, uh, we really pride ourselves on taking the hard cases.
You know, we were originally developed for, uh, chronic relapsers and treatment resistant clients. And so, um, we’re really, you know, we’re really rooted in that foundation at the same time. Um, you know, have over the past 10 years really worked a lot, um, to, uh, You know, develop clinical sophistication and you know, all of those things that are so important to support all of the things that we’re seeing coming in right now, you know, I’ve listened to.
Um, you guys, his podcast and, um, a lot of interesting information there, you know, kind of listening from the, uh, the compounded trauma versus, you know, event trauma into, um, you know, the, the pieces on human trafficking and is all of those things. I’m are legitimately hitting our doors. Um, we have to be prepared.
So it’s really great to have outlets and resources, um, like, like your podcast, because you know, it kind of can point us all in a, in an educational direction of like, okay, well, this is interesting. Where can I learn more? So. Certainly appreciate the work that you guys are doing as well.
Chris Gadzik: [00:07:53] I’ll thank you for those kind words.
Yeah. Educational, but I’d like to point out Craig, we have fun as well as educate, right? Absolutely. No, it’s impressive. And, and Craig, what’s cool about that. Honestly. Cause Mandy Craig kind of is not in the field to, uh, you know, especially in whatnot, which is what’s cool about him on the show is kind of getting the, you know, the regular person’s idea of what’s going on.
And Craig, you gotta realize, man, like when, when you hit inpatient recovery and whatnot, Uh, these are, these are pretty hard cases, but it’s even harder when you have multiple components kind of going on. Like it’s cool to hear you say Mandy, that you’ve got specifically for what I used to call years ago.
The tweeners, right? Yeah. Yeah. These guys. Yeah, it used to be, there was such a gap. There’s just nothing for somebody that’s, you know, 22 years old, except for go to the, you know, the recovery unit where there’s nothing. 40 and 50 year olds sitting around and they’re like, Oh my gosh. You know, and then, you know, specific towards trauma and that type of thing.
So that’s, that’s really cool that you guys are plugging gaps for women and, and, and, and special populations as well. Yeah,
Mandy Baker: [00:08:56] absolutely. We’ve, we’ve just really revamped our. A young adult male program to kind of start looking at, you know, I guess what popular literature is calling the boy problem or toxic masculinity and the expressions of that.
And so it’s been a lot of fun to really kind of dive into that and, um, you know, Get it, get it working and help, help some more people.
Chris Gadzik: [00:09:18] That’s cool. So let’s get into the COVID, uh, specific stuff here in just a couple seconds, but I want to kind of start out with a couple of broader things, um, to just to get kind of our audience aware.
Cause a lot of people that are, I think are listening to our show, don’t really know rehab centers. We actually did a show. Uh, Hey, you might appreciate this. When Mandy the, uh, what was it called? Craig? They’re not house or something we did with inpatient stays. You remember?
Mandy Baker: [00:09:42] I don’t remember. I’d have to look it up.
Chris Gadzik: [00:09:43] Oh really? Yeah, we did one. And the reason why I remember it so much, so is because we used, uh, as a promo, a little intro on a, uh, dr. Dimento, ah, they’re coming to take me away. It was so funny to me, but anyway,
we, we, we, we talked about that as an inpatient stay, but we haven’t really talked about re rehab. A whole lot yet.
So, um, I want to do a little general and educate our audience kind of about that. Um, and, and do just a real quick review and a little bit of. Generalized addiction things. Um, what are you starting out with the idea of, of simply what would you say addiction is? I like posing that question. Cause I think fundamentally people kind of do get confused about that and, and a little bit weirded out about that and how that works.
So what would you say like Mandy’s definition of addiction? If you had to pin it down,
Mandy Baker: [00:10:36] let’s start with the hard question, right? You know, I guess if I had to define addiction, it would be, um, you know, the process by which, um, our brains become addicted to a particular feeling or chemical. Right. And they want more and more of it.
Um, even to the detriment of our own survival, basically. Um, Yeah. You know, I, I look at it a lot from a brain based lens. Um, and you know, really thinking about all of the things that are going on when we, um, ingest, uh, alcohol or other substances, when. Um, we participate in other activities that sort of sparked the dopamine response in the brain, like, you know, gambling or sex or all of those things.
I mean, it’s just basically when, when the survival mechanism of our brain is haywire, basically, um, for, for a Texas word, I think you guys probably know that word.
Chris Gadzik: [00:11:30] Haywire, yes We get haywire, you know, I like what you say with brain-based. Um, Lens, you know, uh, the disease model for Minnesota, you know, the Minnesota model from way back before you and I were probably born at least certainly.
Um, well anyway, no age jokes, that one just bombed it bombed in the middle Craig. Uh, but, but, but I mean, you do, you guys kind of operate that way in so far as you know, brain-based lens to me means like, you know, there really is something going on. That’s different biologically that’s really driving.
Something that we totally don’t understand.
Mandy Baker: [00:12:05] Absolutely. And it doesn’t happen in a vacuum, you know? I mean, I always always tell for people or the clients in particular that, um, we’ve kind of got two sides of this, you know, we’ve got your genetic loading and then we have the experiences that you go through in your life.
And, um, neither is executed without the other really. I mean, there, there are people who go through terrible events and don’t become. Addicts and alcoholics or substance use disordered individuals. Um, there are people who have that genetic predisposition and, you know, they never fire the gun, so to speak.
Chris Gadzik: [00:12:39] And, do we have to say substance use or substance dependence?
Mandy Baker: [00:12:43] You can say hi. No, no. You know, I’m just trying to be PC here. They change it about every five years and we have to reorient to everything.
Chris Gadzik: [00:12:51] I know. I miss the days of alcohol abuse, diagnosis, alcohol dependence diagnosis. It makes so much more sense to me.
Mandy Baker: [00:12:58] We’ve got, you know, mild, moderate, and severe.
Chris Gadzik: [00:13:00] Yes. Yes. Yes. Now also I’m curious, in a general sense, have you seen the growing nature in the substance use field with, um, you know, the combination of mental health factors and substance abuse factors? I mean, as you probably know, you know, I’ve, I’ve. Been honest on this show about my terrible frustration with that separation and great divide in our field.
Have you seen more joining, particularly on a rehab level?
Mandy Baker: [00:13:26] Um, you know, and, and, and we work really hard at this. And, and so a lot of my colleagues and partners in the effort to kind of, you know, STEM the tide, but. Um, you know, we can’t really work through one without working on the other. And I think for a long time we tried to silo those two things.
We tried to say, well, you know, if we resolve the mental health problem, then the substance use disorder will resolve or we resolve the substance use problem. Then the mental health disorder will resolve. And, and the truth is, is that, you know, he got to do both. Um, and you know, there’s, there’s so much more that we know about addiction.
Now in 2020, then we knew when I got into the field, you know, 16, 17 years ago, there’s spin, you know, a lot of rapid development in the science of addiction. And, um, you know, I think what we know now is that, I mean, you know, we wouldn’t, um, try to treat someone with a heart attack and ignore their hypertension.
Um,
Chris Gadzik: [00:14:19] right, right.
Mandy Baker: [00:14:21] That’s kind of, you know where we’re at here. We can’t just say, well, stop smoking crack and. Hopefully your psychotic disorder will go away.
Chris Gadzik: [00:14:35] Craig, what do you think about that? Chime in on that in a general sense. And let’s jump into the COBIT factors that have kind of jumped in, but he’s kind of listened over the last, you know, year or so. Right. As far as I’ve asked that question several times and, and for that reason, I mean, how do you see the general.
Uh, the general idea or, or actually let me come back to you and get your brain working on that. One more general thing for you, Mandy. And then we’ll go to Craig in the idea of rehab, like, uh, help, help our audience understand, like, what the heck is his rehab stay? Like, why would I go to a rehab facility?
Mandy Baker: [00:15:06] Sure. You know, people ask me that question a lot. Um, and. The best answer that I can give them is that, you know, the very nature of addiction means that we can’t stop doing something on our own. And sometimes we need some type of, uh, separation and, and rehab for all practical purposes is a great separator.
So if I have something that is engaging me biologically, um, over and over and over again, it becomes really difficult for me to step away from that. Um, without some type of, um, intervention that were moved me from whatever that is, if I can’t stop going to the casino, somebody needs to stop me so that I can then get treatment.
I can’t stop using cocaine. I need to get to a place where people aren’t using cocaine. And so I think there’s, there’s two main things about rehab that make them important, particularly residential or inpatient rehab, which is, is the kind of facilities that, um, I work in currently. You know, the, the biggest factor is that we’re taking somebody out of an environment, which they have created to support an addiction and putting them into an environment that is specifically created to support recovery.
Um, And that environmental change over a period of time is often, um, long enough for their brains to sort of clear from the fog and then begin to do the work with, with clinicians and therapists and, uh, you know, recovery mentors and all kinds of, uh, doctors, you know, to treat those mental health illnesses.
Um, you know, but sometimes we just have to, we have to pick people up and put them in a new environment. And, um, for people particularly that, you know, are treatment resistant or, um, have a long history of relapse. Um, sometimes inpatient residential is really the best option.
Chris Gadzik: [00:16:53] Right. You know, it’s funny to me as an outpatient clinician, Mandy and Craig, I’ll say this and turn it over and see what your brain’s doing.
But I mean, it’s, it’s funny, you know, when I, when I meet with somebody in a, in a therapy experience and they have not been to rehab yet, I spend so much time in early recovery, like, you know, sort of, cause I do kind of believe in a teaching model and what we do to make therapy effective, literally like teaching.
The language, you know, what does relapse triggers mean? What does, what is relapse prevention? What is, what is a trigger in the first place? How do I do a recovery network? What is this 12 steps? You know, I do so much to Craig, but when someone becomes out of rehab, dude, like it is they’re on, they’re already speaking the entire language.
You, you know what I mean by language Manny? Oh, sure.
Mandy Baker: [00:17:40] Yeah, recovery is a culture. it really is
Chris Gadzik: [00:17:44] Yeah.
Yeah.
Craig. Is this the first time we’ve talked about rehab centers and inpatient facilities through essay? Is that, is that a true statement?
Craig Graves: [00:17:51] Yeah. This is the first time we’ve talked about that topic on the show. Um, how do you set them up for success when they go home?
Because if they go right back into the same environment they came from, and I know. I know people who’ve gone through this. Right. I got a friend of mine that went through rehab three or four times, and I’m like, dude, moved to Montana and work on a dude ranch for the rest of your life, because seriously, he would come home in the morning from rehab that afternoon junkies would be calling him, trying to get him, to get them some drugs two weeks later.
And he’s right back in the same spot. Right. You know? So, I mean, is there a process to set somebody up for success when they leave there? Or how does that work?
Mandy Baker: [00:18:32] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the problems with the way we look at rehab, so to speak and, uh, America in particular is that we look at it as is sort of an acute model, right?
It’s like, things are so bad. We gotta, we gotta pick you up. We gotta put you in here. We’re going to stabilize your we’re gonna send you back out. Um, and addiction is really more, uh, more effectively treated in a chronic illness model. So in a lot of the same ways that we would try to teach somebody how to overcome, um, you know, obesity or diabetes or, um, you know, things that you can do to help your asthma, you know, over a course of time, um, or the same kind of things that, that we need to do.
Um, with people who have addictive illness and, and with that, you know, um, a lot of the research shows that longer is better and it doesn’t mean that you have to be inpatient for a year, but, you know, it’s kind of like these partnerships, you know, that I would imagine that, that Chris has with some treatment providers and you guys area where.
Um, we kind of use a step down approach, you know, um, we, we get them in, we stabilize them, we start to build skills and then we put them in a safe container where they can practice these skills. And then over time, um, we hope that they become sort of a part. Of a lifestyle. Um, and a lot of it, you know, I, I, a lot of it is about an, I is about identity.
Like who am I as a person? You know, if I am overly identified as a drug dealer or a drug user or a Barfly or a fill in the blank, um, you know, a high roller, um, if I’m overly identified with that, and it’s really hard to strip me away from my whole personality, you know, and, um, So when I come back, it’s a lot easier for me to put that on.
It’s one of the reasons that I’m 12 step programs and other fellowships, um, you know, are very useful because they sort of build that social network around somebody that helps them to support this new identity, as opposed to, um, you know, Not having anything, you know, number one, number one need of people in the world is to be loved and accepted, um, and connected above all else.
Um, and we’re going to find that connection wherever it’s available, even if it’s not the healthiest thing.
Chris Gadzik: [00:20:47] So I’m just gonna poke fun real quick. Mandy, you said we put them in, in a, in a, in a safe container. I just want to point out Craig, that’s not like a, you know, I don’t know what kind of container is that
Mandy Baker: [00:20:59] my friend and a container
Chris Gadzik: [00:21:02] should have.
Mandy Baker: [00:21:04] Yeah.
Chris Gadzik: [00:21:05] And you know,
Craig Graves: [00:21:07] it’s a very sad story.
Chris Gadzik: [00:21:10] So it sounds like you guys are pretty supportive of a, the 12 step community and that type of thing. I’ve kind of heard it. Quoted even before I came a clinician at what works best for most. And so a lot of times 12 step communities are kind of wrapped around and incorporated and embedded into programming for treatment.
Mandy Baker: [00:21:27] I mean, it’s the most widely available free service. Um, in the world actually, probably to help people overcome this problem. I mean, um,
Chris Gadzik: [00:21:36] It started with two dudes in Akron, Ohio, and now is literally a worldwide phenomenon and it’s amazing. And, and how might I say has COVID-19 effect that not at all,
right.
Like, gosh, you know, I told you Craig, uh, you know, I have a client that I’ve talked to and she has, um, Oh, Mandy. She’s, she’s amazed to me where she’s, she’s very active in program and they’re working a great, uh, recovery network. And, um, she’s there. People are literally in the 12 step circles meeting around the world in what I am just fascinated by.
On the online, uh, market, not marketability, but, um, agility of the community. Right. Have you, have you seen that? Like that’s amazing.
Mandy Baker: [00:22:24] Absolutely. Um, it’s, it’s been phenomenal. Um, You know, people from all over the country have, you know, quickly pivoted to digital platforms to go to meetings, to zoom meetings, to online phone calls.
Um, you know, we. Quickly pivoted. We have a very robust alumni program. And so we quickly pivoted to moving all of that online. And, um, it was, it was really a powerful experience. You know, the first time we did that to see, um, 50, 60 little tiles on the zoom screen of people coming in from all over the place, you know, the, the bulk of them were located in Austin, but.
Um, one of the things we realized is that, you know, we’ve got, we’ve got alumni all over the country and a few international and some of them jumped on because for the first time that service was available to them. So, you know, while, while there have been some definite challenges with COVID, um, there have been some real silver linings of things that probably we wouldn’t have thought about.
Uh, until this happened
Chris Gadzik: [00:23:29] and likely will stay stick around
Mandy Baker: [00:23:30] likely we’ll stay.
Yeah.
Um, we will continue even when we can begin to meet in person again, to, to use the zoom platforms so that, um, people. I can access services easier.
Chris Gadzik: [00:23:44] It’s gotta be an amazing reality on a positive note. You know, when you’re, I mean, I mean it, man, you know how powerful it is when you sit down for the very first time you get your butt in a seat, in a church or gathering somewhere and you utter those amazing words for the first time, right?
Hi, I’m Chris. And I’m an alcoholic. Wow. Right. You feel so alone prior to that. After that it’s like, you know, this, you, you could be a part of the group. Like you’re, you’re, you’re connected and loved. How about the power of that? I’m curious if you’ve seen somebody in early recovery, maybe the first time they’d been in recovery network and they’ve uttered those words for the very first time in their life.
And they’ve literally done that on a meeting where it’s hurt across the world. Like, have you, I’m curious, have you seen that?
Mandy Baker: [00:24:33] It has not been my experience as of yet. Um, I am a member of a 12 step fellowship. Um, you know, one of the, one of the things that you know was so cool last night, I, I hopped on a, uh, a meeting with, um, an old group that I used to belong to when I was.
Gosh in my twenties. Right. Um, and I’m not anymore. Um, but there were people on there that were calling in from, you know, different places in Texas, someone from Puerto Rico. Um, and so, you know, you’re connecting with people you haven’t seen or heard from in a long time, people from, you know, Islands people from Australia, Australia,
Chris Gadzik: [00:25:14] Pakistan.
Yeah. And my thing, my point is that I, when I realized about the positive impact of, you know, the epidemic, I mean, like I said, It’s a powerful thing to realize, like, I could be a part of this community, but it’s, it’s humbling and very grounding to know, like, not only am I not alone with something that I felt terribly alone with I’m with people that are dealing with very similar things.
Oh, around the world. Like, if you just, if as we, as the world shrinks almost with some of this stuff, I mean, that’s a very potential positive outcome of COVID 19
Mandy Baker: [00:25:52] I think so too. I think so too. You know, I mean, I think that, I think that people will be really grateful to get back to in person things, but I also think that there will be some newfound wonder if you will, from a lot of what’s happened.
Craig Graves: [00:26:13] So as everything moved to online, do you still have people in facilities? So we still, yeah, we absolutely do. I mean, we still are accepting patients and all of our facilities. Um, it has been an interesting challenge, uh, to do that safely.
Chris Gadzik: [00:26:30] Let’s just pause right there real quick. That’s an important reality.
It feels like to me in like Craig yeah. You’re asking, right? Like, do you still have people in these facilities? The world needs to know, like, yes, it, because people are needing that and fearful of that and not engaging that I fear
Craig Graves: [00:26:53] will go ahead with the testing piece. I’d like to hear what you guys are doing.
Mandy Baker: [00:26:56] Absolutely. I think, you know that the need for inpatient treatment has not gotten any lower. In fact, in a lot of ways it’s gotten more significant, um, particularly we’ve found with, with our. Um, alcoholic population, you know, I don’t, I don’t know what the stats are for other States, but in Texas liquor, beer and wine sales have gone up 55%.
Um, since the month of March, um, and that has posed some unique challenges to us because, you know, the detox detox of patients using alcohol has gotten a lot more involved because they’re drinking a lot more. Um, but yeah, back to the kind of, you know, how we admit patients to the facility, um, you know, one of the, one of the things that is incredibly important about a new person coming in.
One of our programs is that they feel welcomed and that they feel, um, accepted and that they feel supported. I mean, it’s a very lonely and scary thing to walk into a treatment center. And one of the difficulties that we’ve had to address with that is, um, the fact that when somebody comes in, um, we do have, um, the ability to provide antibody test and we do have the ability to provide the, um, PCR nasal swab testing.
And we do that on every admitting patient. Um, the problem is, uh, those PCR results take about 24 to 48 hours to get in. Um, so during that time we have to ask this new person who’s walking into the facility. To isolate in a room by themselves. We bring them their food. We check on them in full protect, personal protective gear.
Chris Gadzik: [00:28:34] Um, wow.
Mandy Baker: [00:28:35] You know, and we, um, a lot of the normal things that we do, like assign them a buddy that has to stay within 10 feet of them, 24 hours for the first 24 hours to help them feel welcome. Go over the rules, orient them. I mean, all of that’s kind of on pause. Um, We have, um, Purchased several, um, tablets that we hand to them when they come in, as they go into the isolation room, um, where they can get on and participate in the groups via zoom maps, or other, um, we actually use another platform.
That’s HIPAA compliant. Um, so that they can log in and participate remotely, even though they may be only 20 feet away from where the group is, they can’t actually go into it, um, until we get those negative results back. And so that certainly poses some challenges for, um, making people feel comfortable and welcome.
And a part of, um, when they get here. So we’ve had to be pretty creative and inventive and worked through a lot of different protocols, um, to get that done, you know, for the first gosh, for the first month of, you know, what people might call that outbreak or the pandemic or whatever. Um, we didn’t have testing available
Chris Gadzik: [00:29:47] at all.
That’s what I was going to ask that. Yeah. When did it, have you always had it for everybody?
Mandy Baker: [00:29:51] No, we haven’t. I mean, we spent, um, we spent a lot of man hours on the phone calling labs, trying to get access, trying to set up talking to the health department, but you know, that’s a worldwide problem. It’s not unique necessarily.
Well, not a world. I say it’s a Countrywide problem. Um, Access to testing and, and, you know, we feel really fortunate that we landed with the laboratory that we, we did, who can get these tests to us and turn around and keep us in supply. And, but it took about a month for us to get there.
Craig Graves: [00:30:23] So, so do people come to your facilities on their own or is it, are they court ordered to come?
Why do they show up? I guess is the question
Mandy Baker: [00:30:31] there’s lots of reasons. Um, you know, some people just decide that they’ve had enough. Um, their life is going downhill. They want to get off the crazy train or whatnot. Um, sometimes they come to us because of legal interactions. Um, they could be court ordered.
They could. You know, have gotten arrested for something and been given an option between, um, in Texas, we have what’s called substance abuse, felony punishment options, or they may have chosen to go to treatment instead of a lockup facility. Um, sometimes people’s husbands wives, kids, uh, spouses partners will intervene on them and say, Hey, your behavior’s unacceptable.
And if you don’t get help, I’m not gonna be able to stick around much longer. Um, so people come to us for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes therapists like Chris make referrals to us or physicians, um, attorneys.
Craig Graves: [00:31:24] Have you seen like a, maybe a decrease or any fluctuation in the people who are coming after this thing started?
I think people would be scared to come. Right. I mean,
Mandy Baker: [00:31:34] I think it’s fair to say that, um, you know, um, we have seen a decline in call volume of people calling to get help. Mmm. And, you know, we’ve been really fortunate in that, you know, the census in our programs has remained fairly stable. It’s fluctuated, maybe, you know, plus or minus five from what we’re we’re used to.
Um, but, um, I think, yeah, there are a couple of driving factors in that. I think one is that, Mmm. At least in Texas. And again, we draw clients from all over the country. Um, we had, uh, we had a lot of travel restrictions put in place. And so for, um, actually, you know, from middle of March until about two hours ago today, they just lifted the travel ban.
Um, we could not, ain’t nobody coming from New York, California, Washington, New Jersey, Connecticut, Miami, Detroit. Anywhere in Louisiana, um, Chicago,
Craig Graves: [00:32:33] you get clients that are from, from all those places we do. We do. Yeah.
Mandy Baker: [00:32:38] And you know, when, when they limited that and said that there was a, um, an approachable quarantine, basically, if you flew into the airport, you were, you were met at the gate.
Like you were going through customs almost, um, by a DPS trooper. Who said you had to quarantine for 14 days or face a thousand dollar fine, or up to 180 days in jail. And that’s a pretty big deterrent for people who probably may already have a little involvement with law enforcement agencies. And don’t really want to have to register their whereabouts when they walk off the plane.
Craig Graves: [00:33:11] Right. That whole thing’s crazy with that. I don’t want to get political, but. You know, bad people have been let out of jail because of the coronavirus. Yet people who are breaking the rules, the rules are going to jail for breaking the rules. It’s ridiculous.
Chris Gadzik: [00:33:27] Oh, we can get a little political. I have no problem with that.
Mandy Baker: [00:33:31] We can switch over to. Some of my favorite conspiracy theory podcast channels here afterwards.
Chris Gadzik: [00:33:37] You did, you did say that when we were talking yesterday or so, you know, I just, I got so many thoughts flowing through my head and I want to say this a as, before we lose it, before I lose it. I really appreciate the way you put a voice to, um, the, the powerful experience of, of, of needing to feel accepted and okay.
I mean, you know, as well as I do, you know, addicted people that Craig, by the way, joke, alert. Yeah. Only about 5% come from self-referral that’s sort of a joke, but not really. Yeah. But I mean, they’re, they’re pounding their last beers in the parking lot. You know, but literally people like they’re the, you know, because of the, the, the difficulty in presenting, I mean, you know, you think it’s hard to come to a, to a therapy session, Craig, and the shame that you feel and the difficulty of like, Oh my God, what’s going to happen to me.
They’re like coming to your facility. That is huge. And, and man I hadn’t thought about in my own little world here in my little therapy office, how. Powerfully difficult. That must be for people to approach treatment, you know, being quarantined and dealing like, you know, individually alone like that, that just shakes my clinical brain a little bit.
That’s terrible.
Mandy Baker: [00:34:52] Yeah. It’s, it’s hard, you know, I mean, again, our staff have been incredible and amazing and willing to. Um, you know, suit up and show up and literally suit up and see and walk in there and just sit down and be like, Hey, you know, I know you can’t get out there with them, but I can be in here with you.
What do you need? How are we going to get through this? You know? And, um, you know, we, we have been very fortunate and, and I think I would be remiss not to give the, the team that works here. It’s a huge compliment in the sense that none of them have wavered in their commitment to, you know, help people.
Chris Gadzik: [00:35:32] Well, you know what, thank you for that. And, and you can do that. And, uh, I want to take a pause in a moment and thank you. For what you’re doing. Cause I have a sneaking suspicion you are one of those folks on the dag gone phone at 12 one o’clock in the morning trying to get the testing. And I talked to you on the phone and you talked about pivoting.
I think I’ve heard the word pivot more than I’ve heard that word in the entire NBA basketball season. Cause you’ve been pivoting, dancing and moving and creating a Craig I thinks she’s pretty much responsible for creating all these protocols and the things that you’ve had to deal with. I mean, man, this must have been a heck of a.
A two, three month period for you.
Mandy Baker: [00:36:10] It’s been a stressful time for all of us. I mean, for the leadership team that, you know, I, I work with on a daily basis who, you know, have consumed and digested immense amounts of research and set up our testing protocols and. Um, you know, I mean, I’m, I’m fortunate and that, um, I’m not, I’m not, you know, the nursing staff who has to show up and like shove those Q-tips up everybody’s noses and things like that.
But, um, you know, it, it it’s, um, you know, we try to have a little levity around it. And, uh, as I was talking with my CEO yesterday, yesterday, and he said, um, he said, you know, I think that. A year from now, we’re going to look back at this time and say, wow, I cannot imagine how much stress we were actually under then, you know, but, but, but you know this, Chris, I mean, you, you get it, you get in front of a client, you get in the room, you just do what you have to do.
I mean, and, and that’s what our team has done here. And that’s what. Um, I’ve tried to do, that’s what we’ve all tried to do is just, you know, gotta do what we’ve gotta do. Um, this, this won’t last forever, or maybe it will, but let’s hope not,
Chris Gadzik: [00:37:21] you know what you’re right. And just to highlight that a little bit you’re right.
Cause Craig, I think I’ve said on the show before, I was honest about it. Um,
you know, as, as a clinician, you kind of learn
how to. You know, compartmentalize your own emotions a lot, you know, every now and again, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll really take somebody home in my head and in my heart, you know, that there was a tough case or something, but, but for all intensive purposes, I can answer my family and friends.
And they’re like, dude, how could you do that all day long? Listen to people problems like, you know, and I’m
like, I don’t know. Yeah. Like you just do you manage that?
But I’ll tell you when you go in there with your own emotion in place as well, like Mandy, I mean the whole first two, three weeks of dealing with this, I’m on managing my own fear.
My own, like what’s going on here is this, you know, trying to get your arms wrapped around this it’s stressful. So you have your own emotion. And all the normal stuff. And I’ll tell you what I was leaving, exhausted, licking the floor for a while, just like, you know, you know, wow,
Craig Graves: [00:38:20] Mandy, have you had people who’ve tested positive?
Mandy Baker: [00:38:23] We have.
Craig Graves: [00:38:25] And what do you do? Do you, do they still get treated in some form or fashion?
Mandy Baker: [00:38:30] They do, you know, I mean, we made a commitment, um, that. Um, addiction kills as many, if not more people annually then COVID. Um, and so you know that we were going to continue the battle on that front as well. Um, when we have had individuals who have tested positive, um, we have, um, it depends if they’re in our residential program, we actually.
Um, set up a separate facility where positive clients go. Um, we have a team of staff that have volunteered to man or women, that facility and, um, They continue with the program that they’re in. So they have some live in-person groups with the staff that’s working over there. And then for, you know, some of the other groups that are a little bit more educational, educational in nature, they zoom into whatever program there.
Um, you know, situated in and we just go until they follow our, you know, the 14 day quarantine and two negative tests and, you know, then we sanitize all their stuff and send them back to the program that they started in. If they’re in sober living. Um, we also, we have some quarantine,
Chris Gadzik: [00:39:42] um, the sober living is where you have your after rehab and you stay there for more months at a time and whatnot.
Mandy Baker: [00:39:49] Yeah. And we send them over there and we, we have purchased, um, pulse oximeters and blood pressure cuffs, and all those kinds of things. They check in daily with our medical team via telemedicine. Um, they walk their vitals four times a day. If we see certain changes, we get them in the car and take them to the hospital.
Um, thank goodness. Nobody in our care has had to be hospitalized from this illness. Um, and you know, it has, um, what are they saying? Necessity is the, is the mother of invention. And so, you know, every time something comes up, we just. Pivot and, um, yeah, there it is. Again, I used to play basketball, so that’s fun.
Um, you know, it’s, it’s been a, um, a very fluid. Experience, I would say. And, um, the same kind of thing has happened. You know, we closed our campuses, no visitation, no, um, tours, no marketing events, no. Um, anything and you know, that’s been, I think probably one of the most heartbreaking things for me about this is, um, that, you know, we have longterm programs.
Some of our programs are 90 to 120 days. Um, since this started and we closed those campuses, there have been families who have sent their loved ones to us who have not been able to see them at all. Um, you do the, you know, we do the family programming on online, but, um, by law and by choice, we, we can’t, um, have 75 people come onto our property and congregate in a small space and, um, you know, run that risk of an outbreak.
Chris Gadzik: [00:41:20] So, let me set that up a little bit. Um, boy, you, you, you know, what are you in my head Mandy or a good therapist? She’s in my head, Craig. She knew I was going there. I’m scared now, now just kidding. Listen. So just set that up a little bit. Yeah. We, you know, we kind of, when I started, uh, getting aware of what’s going on in the nineties and eighties, we really in the substance abuse field began to realize, you know, especially in rehabs, like.
You know, you’ve got to have a family program. I mean, there’s, there’s a family component to all this. I think we’ve, you know, we did a show about family dynamics with, with substance abuse and, and, uh, you know, that’s become a staple and important part to go back to your original question, Craig. What do you do when you get home?
Well, we, we now are really adept in the field. I think I could say Mandy, that we know family dynamics need to be treated as well. Still, probably not up to as much as we need it to be, but you will have family days and family therapy programs you’ll have. People doing structural family therapy strategies in units and facilities.
Um, they’re, they’re introduced really dynamically to like, what’s going to happen when you come home from treatment. I just had a, a teenage come home from treatment and they’re pulling in, you know, their brother and incorporating them into therapy sessions while they’re still at treatment getting ready to come home.
So cool. So we now know that we do a lot of that and how important component that is, but man, W what are we doing now with all that? How have we pivoted there, right?
Mandy Baker: [00:42:48] Yeah. It has been, um, an interesting, yeah, an interesting exercise. So again, thank goodness for zoom and other platforms. Like it. Um, last, let’s see, two months ago, we set up our entire family program on, um, online basically, um, our family department who are fantastic, um, got in there and, um, Put everything into an online platform.
They found specialized zoom links and the family members get on there from wherever they are, um, in, in the world. And, um, they have some education and we’ve even done some multifamily process groups with them, um, via zoom. Uh, and, and let them talk and let them ask the questions. And, um, you know, and, and then we do sort of, you know, family med, family therapy via telemedicine as well, which isn’t totally novel to this, to this instance.
I mean, if you’re doing regular therapy with somebody from far away, you might use that platform anyway, but this is kind of the first time that we’ve done it in a, um, Group facilitated platform. And, um, you know, it’s, it’s, um, it’s an approximator of the real thing, but I think, um, the families have been appreciative of having time to talk to one another because just like we want the addicts to feel supported and included in normal, the families need to have that same.
Um, experience, you know, they need to be able to see that, you know, this isn’t just something that’s happening to my kid or to my husband, or I don’t weigh my parenting. I don’t need to be ashamed. This is
Chris Gadzik: [00:44:26] I as a parent am not alone either.
Mandy Baker: [00:44:29] Yeah. You know, and, and at the end of the day, I mean, connection is really what fights addiction, you know?
And, um, and same thing for the family.
Craig Graves: [00:44:38] Is, is it any, I mean, obviously it’s different, but it is it, as far as the recovery process, I’m assuming, like you said, the connection is necessary. So not being able to physically be in the same room or, or hug a family member or a son or daughter or spouse, is that hindering the recovery process in any way?
Mandy Baker: [00:44:58] You know, um, it may be too soon to tell, um, you know, I hope not. Um, and I think that, you know, inpatient treatment providers around the country are doing the very best they can to. Um, to get it to that place. I mean, I think that there are some things, of course, and Chris, you may, you may agree or disagree, but I think there, there are some really hard things sometimes that are best said face to face, as opposed to screen to screen or, you know, phone to phone.
And, um, and so we’ve just encouraged our team to be sensitive around those things and, and to help clients, you know, discern. Okay. What, what, what is important to say right now versus what is important to say? The next time I get to sit down with them face to face and, um, and those types of things.
Chris Gadzik: [00:45:45] Yeah. You know, I’ll tell you my 2 cents on that. And Manny, I would not have thought this, uh, three months ago, uh, at all. I think I’ve said it on the show when it was some point during the Covid 19 shows, but you know, obviously face to face is the standard. That’s, that’s the way we want to engage, you know, treatment in our field.
And I don’t see that going away. I hope it doesn’t go away. Because I feel strongly about that, but, um, I used to say there’s a little bit of a step down, you know, in, in the, the powerful connection that you can have on Skype or, you know, video conferencing. It was, it’s pretty adequate. I would have said it’s a way big step down on the teletherapy.
Yeah, I am shocked at some of the teletherapy sessions I’ve had. I mean, I would not, I would have, I would’ve fought it. I mean, I would have argued with it. I would have felt like I’m making a good argument. Teletherapy is not as effective. I would have said, and I was wrong. It absolutely is. In my view. It’s, I’ve been shocked about that.
I was going to ask you, I’m glad this came up because I wanted to see if you kind of, if you’ve experienced that much at all.
Mandy Baker: [00:46:46] Um, yeah. You know, I think that, um, if we were to take a poll with the staff here, I think we would say kind of, some of them would, would say, I think it’s great. I think it’s working just fine.
I don’t have any issues. And then I’ve got some who would say. I can’t do it this way. I need to be able to read body language and feel energy and, you know, different things like that. Um, you know, my own personal experiences that, um,
when I have engaged in therapy for myself, which I think is important for all therapists to do consistently or from time to time. Um, I, uh, I have found that I do better face to face because I tend to be. Easily distracted. We’ll put it that way, but I have also seen, you know, some people do really well with it.
Um, and I think we’re talking a lot about like personalities and preferences and all of those kinds of things, because like some people, you know, a little bit of distance, maybe even if that is sort of artificially induced, um, they’re a little bit more comfortable in the therapy room.
Chris Gadzik: [00:47:50] They open up more.
Mandy Baker: [00:47:51] Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gadzik: [00:47:53] It’s it’s, I mean, it’s still by far, the, the standard is going to be face to face because there is so much more that goes in with that, but I’ve just been very surprised. I just remember one time, very particular, I’m talking with a teenager and I think it’s also very helpful by the way the telephonic.
Therapy modalities, you know, meeting somebody and having a couple of few sessions at least to start. I mean, that that’s important. Cause I know these people that I’m talking to you, but this teenager, I hung up the phone and I thought, and then I went to my secretary of my, my office staff and I said, you know, that was the best therapy session I’ve had with that kid to date.
Mandy Baker: [00:48:29] That’s awesome.
Chris Gadzik: [00:48:30] I was like on the phone, like, wow.
Craig Graves: [00:48:34] You know, I think that if I were seeing a therapist online would be fine with me over zoom would be cool if I were going through. A process where I was trying to beat addiction and I weren’t able to have a physical connection with my family and children.
I think that would be diff that’d be a different story.
Chris Gadzik: [00:48:54] It’s a good point. Yeah.
Mandy Baker: [00:48:55] Yeah. And I think I, you know, Craig, I think to that point, I mean, you know, I think it has been incredibly difficult. Um, on the people who, who have kids, you know, and we have moms and dads and treatment all the time, you know, and.
Um, I think, I think for them it has posed an even greater, um, struggle than say, you know, you know, not being able to talk to your mom in person or your dad in person, but, you know, as a, as a parent, I can’t even imagine what that must be like.
Craig Graves: [00:49:26] Yeah. Right.
Chris Gadzik: [00:49:28] You know, you might be interested Mandy, another show to check out or your colleagues and stuff with the family program.
We had Linda, um, hacker. Uh, am I saying that name right? Oh my gosh, Craig save me. Um, she wrote, she wrote a, an awesome book light as a feather and from a mom’s perspective on a, um, You knew her son who had, who had gotten heroin addiction and whatnot. And it was just, it was a very powerful from her perspective and what she went through with treatment and, you know, feeling left out and feeling, you know, the struggle of getting the right treatment and how to engage it.
And, uh, you know, it’s, it’s a big deal, isn’t it? Okay.
Mandy Baker: [00:50:01] Yeah. Yeah. It is. You know, I mean, um, no, especially at our young adult program where they’re not quite launched all the way. Um, you know, we’re looking at the tweens and those kinds of things and, um, you know, a lot of heroin addiction over there. Um, lot of
Chris Gadzik: [00:50:18] Do you all see that over there as much,
Mandy Baker: [00:50:20] I mean, you know,
Chris Gadzik: [00:50:22] it’s big around here, man. I mean, it’s, it’s amazing to me.
Mandy Baker: [00:50:27] Yeah. It’s really interesting to sort of watch trends, you know, and, um, You know, 10 years ago, everybody was talking about methamphetamine and enforcement action was all about methamphetamine. And you know, now it’s all about opiates and opioids. And so, you know, whenever, whenever the law cracks down on something else, like the other one, it’s like, whack-a-mole something else kind of pops back up.
And so we’re starting to see things that I haven’t seen since the late nineties, you know, Cocaine people were coming in addicted to powder cocaine, and I’m like, I didn’t even know they still made powder cocaine.
Chris Gadzik: [00:51:03] It used to be, I would jokingly, but seriously caught the Xanax capital of the world. I mean, it just seemed like everybody was popping footballs and, you know, bars. And Xanax milligrams times 10. I mean, it was nuts. And now you just, don’t people, aren’t pill popping pills and ready pills. We have so much to talk to you.
I need to get to another topic. I’m sorry. I got to transition from. Trauma and recovery, right? Like we know there’s a big connection with, um, you know, rehab and, and, and, and the battles and Wars on the streets and our heads and in our hearts with addiction and you know, how we go around guns and violence and dealers.
And I mean, I don’t know, and this stuff goes and, you know, and then you just deal with the, you know, sexual molestations and the childhood traumas and, you know, PTSD for all sorts of reasons. Well, we’ve talked about trauma on the show as well. You did. You mentioned compound trauma versus, um, simple or, or, um, individual trauma experiences.
You know, this COVID-19 reality. I would suppose just buzzes those trauma receptors. I mean, you’re, you’re literally like just getting into the car and stopping to get gas. Your, your, your, your, your senses are tingling. Like, can I touch the gas pump? You know, particularly in the beginning of this, I know I’m exaggerating a little bit, but like that first month and two, and still very much now I just went to Walmart and I saw people freaking out.
I didn’t speak to anybody, but I felt all of that angst in the air. I think it’s powerful, right? Like how have you seen that affecting a trauma in rehab centers?
Mandy Baker: [00:52:43] Yeah. You know, I mean, You know, I think a lot of it depends on like how much access the clients have to news and, um, all of that kind of stuff.
And we certainly do not do not try to limit them from understanding what’s happening in the broader context of the world. Um, and you know, I think they. Um, every time a new client comes in, we see that fear kind of come up a little bit. It’s like persons coming in, they’ve got them in a mask. They’re putting them in their own room.
We don’t know if he or she is positive or negative or are they okay? You know? And so a lot of just kind of trying to manage that about like, don’t assume that, you know, somebody somebody’s sick, um, At the same time. I think that we, um, in, in the first stages kind of like you were talking about Chris, a lot of that was coming through in our staff.
You know, they were worried, they were scared, you know, they were looking to us for how, how the leadership team for like, how are you going to keep us safe in this work environment? You know, we were trying to figure that out too. You know, I think just the. Um, you know, one of the, one of the toughest things I think for, um, any of us who have experienced trauma, um, or are these sort of unknowns, you know, I feel safe when I know.
Um, and, and the truth is, is like nobody knows just yet what is going to work to, you know, I mean, we were all just kind of in the same boat together. Um, I think it’s been certainly. Difficult for the families. You know, there’ve been instances where, you know, they’re like, we don’t understand why you guys continue to admit people to your programs, like stop admitting, um, understand that.
Right. I absolutely,
Chris Gadzik: [00:54:25] again, listening audience, we are accepting referrals, like, you know? Yeah.
Mandy Baker: [00:54:32] You know, and so with that, I mean, we did for a time, um, You know, have some admissions restrictions on certain places or things like that, just because, um, one, we had the, we had the state travel ban and then, you know, too, we were playing a game of probabilities.
Um, but, um, again, you know, this trauma thing comes up and, um, you know, I think one of the hardest things for some of the. Um, clients has probably been the inability to really get out and move around, um, because our normal program would include, you know, taking them sometimes to 12 set meetings, taking them on outings, into the community, taking them to Waterberg or to get a hamburger.
You know, a lot of those things Waterberg do you guys have a lot of burgers down there? Oh man. You’re missing out.
Chris Gadzik: [00:55:22] I just had a big Mac. Does that count?
Craig Graves: [00:55:26] Well, there’s two of them, right? There’s water burger. What’s the other one. There’s two burger joints on the West coast that we don’t have castle burger. Yes. I think that’s the one that, is that the one with the secret menu? Yeah, Kelly. That’s good. We got to get that here in Arizona about year and a half ago. And it was awesome.
Mandy Baker: [00:55:48] Yeah in and outs. Good water burgers. My favorite though.
Chris Gadzik: [00:55:52] So I’m aware of the time a little bit. Let’s let’s begin. Craig, I want to get your summary, thoughts and questions and all,
Craig Graves: [00:55:58] did you say you don’t shelter people from what’s going on in the world? Is that what you said?
Mandy Baker: [00:56:03] You know, we don’t, I mean, we don’t, we don’t let them, you know, and, and I have encouraged the staff and I’ve continued to encourage myself to not consume. Um, you know, CNN, Fox, whatever your flavor, 24 hours a day, you know, um, when it first started, I was just constantly like, Oh my goodness, what’s happening in New York city.
Look at this, you know? And, and not because, um, No, because I didn’t want to be compassionate and aware and not because we don’t want them to either, but, um, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s sort of
Chris Gadzik: [00:56:33] emotional factors there.
Mandy Baker: [00:56:34] Absolutely. You know, I’ve in this level of trauma, uh, for people that, you know, have family in those areas, they worry about them for, yeah.
So we let them see what’s happening, you know, I mean they can go, um, and we’ve been very forthcoming with them about. What our protocol protocols are. You know, if we have a positive case, we have not hidden that from any of the families or anything like that. Um,
Chris Gadzik: [00:56:58] transparency is important.
Mandy Baker: [00:57:00] Absolutely. You know, I mean, I can, I can only respond to what I have information about.
Right. But I can react to what I think I might know or don’t, you know,
Craig Graves: [00:57:13] I was going to joke and say that 24. By seven news channels are probably the cause of a lot of mental health issues. And cutting that out might not be a bad idea.
Chris Gadzik: [00:57:23] It’s not a joke.
Craig Graves: [00:57:24] And it kind of sucks that you can’t get out too. Cause that’s another thing, right? Sunshine
Chris Gadzik: [00:57:28] and exercise,
Craig Graves: [00:57:29] movement and exercise. It’s good for your, your mental, mental state too. So that’s a shame
Mandy Baker: [00:57:33] We are fortunate that we’ve got land here. And so they’ve been out on our properties playing flag football and. Okay, given that kind of stuff, but in terms of, you know, getting them into a different environment and letting them, you know, leave the premises, um, you know, that, that can over time start to feel a little confining and almost traumatic, particularly if somebody has experienced trauma around confinement in their life.
Yeah,
Chris Gadzik: [00:58:00] Craig, get ready to sum us up, but Mandy, I’m curious, you know, taxing in here a little bit. Well, I’m gonna put you on spot, man, and I’m sorry, but maybe you already know because you’ve been sleeping about it and screaming about it and struggling with it. Testing has been fixed, but what, what are the, how do I want to ask this?
Right? Like. What are the outstanding needs that we have? What are the, what are the ongoing, um, maybe unaddressed problems, um, how we’ve, we’ve obviously pivoted and recovered, right? Uh, but what are the still the biggest things that you to come to your mind that, that, that just haven’t been addressed yet?
Or you’re still, you know, a travel ban just got lifted. I understand you said that a little bit ago, but what, what do we really need to do at this moment at this point? Yeah, for inpatient rehab stays in such.
Mandy Baker: [00:58:49] Well, I think, you know, with regard to COVID that, um, patients is probably the number one, um, factor.
I mean, there’s probably not anybody in the country who hasn’t said at least once I’m sure, ready for things to return to normal, you know, air quotations. Um, and I think that, um, you know, as we. Begin to see restrictions, lift nationwide. Uh, there is a tendency, um, for inpatient rehabs to, uh, to maybe move along that same pace.
And the truth is, is that, you know, we need to be moving in, in a, in a pace that is safe for our clients, and that’s going to require a lot of patients, um, because. We are, you know, not nursing homes, but we are similar to them in the same vein that we have a vulnerable population, many of whom have underlying illnesses, including, you know, uh, immune, compromising illnesses, like HIV, hepatitis, and different things like that, you know?
And. Brokers. Yeah. Asthma, all kinds of high blood pressure. Um, you know, and so we put everybody in a, in a small confined environment, sort of like a nursing home. And the potential for spread is greater than it might be for say you, Chris, who, uh, and I, I don’t know anything about your office, but who may have, you know, two or three patients in there at a time we can go behind , spritz, everything down and mist and clean, but.
You know, we’ve got at any given time, you know, at, at the BRC first facility, you know, for example, you know, we may have 25 men living together, um, and working out together and, you know, sharing bathrooms and group spaces and all of those kinds of things. So, so patients.
Oops.
Chris Gadzik: [01:00:39] Can I just interject that I am tired of cleaning Sorry, can you get a lag? Sorry about that. Oh yeah, we got a little lag. No, I was just going to interject maybe. I mean, I just need to, for my own mental health, say like, I am tired of cleaning my office. Oh my goodness.
Craig Graves: [01:00:58] I heard the hurt news today and it’ll change tomorrow because the news is changing.
You know, like the mask thing, Val, she says wear a mask, the world health organizations that don’t wear a mask and you know, that changes. But they were saying that it is these con when you spend long periods of time with somebody who’s in a confined space and they were saying, that’s why the wall, you know, that’s why Walmart’s, aren’t spreading it.
Cause people are just in quick contact or in and out, you know, there’s a bunch of them. So it’s these confined spaces like rest homes and facilities like yours, where people are sick and they’re with somebody for a long period of time. And they think now maybe that’s how it’s, that’s how it’s moving. So you’re definitely, you’re definitely right.
Chris Gadzik: [01:01:40] Hmm. So, Craig, what did you hear? What was new? What was what’s leftover in your head? We need to get, get moving, but what do you, what are you thinking over there sir?
Craig Graves: [01:01:47] It is an interesting conversation and God bless you guys for, um, continuing to try to help these people, because I know these guys do need help. If you listen to our shows about addiction, you’ll probably hear me tell a story about being on a jury.
I was on a jury a couple of years ago and, um, the kid was, the kid was, um, I’m sorry guys.
Chris Gadzik: [01:02:04] His cell phone is ringing
Craig Graves: [01:02:05] the accused of selling drugs. One of the questions they were asking
Chris Gadzik: [01:02:09] now it’s tonguing
Craig Graves: [01:02:10] was, uh, do you know anybody that has been affected by drug addiction? And I lost count like 20, so I know a lot of folks, so they need help, man.
And God bless you guys. And especially the ones who’ve volunteered to. But to help those positive patients. That’s a, that’s good. That’s that warms my heart, you know, to hear, hear, to hear things like that. So, uh, thank you for what you’re doing and thank you for spending time with us tonight or today
Mandy Baker: [01:02:31] Thanks for having me. This has been a lot of fun. I love podcast, and this is, um, I think my first ever podcast. So, yay. Awesome.
Chris Gadzik: [01:02:39] We may have to have you guys back and get something going East coast, West coast style.
Craig Graves: [01:02:43] Hopefully it’s not your last
Chris Gadzik: [01:02:44] right. So Mandy, I do do something here in a second. It’s confusing. Cause I, you know, we can’t, you know, when I’m sitting down with somebody in the studio here, I like to give a high five.
And to me it really signifies like, you know, Um, it, it’s hard to share. It’s weird to share. And, and, and, and so whenever somebody comes on and touches on anything that they’re dealing with, you know, I like to give a high five. So here in here in here in a second, we’re going to do a, a clap to signify that on the category.
But I just, I really, um, I agree. And I second with Craig saying, man, I mean, you know, you hear, you hear the unsung heroes and, um, I, I just have really felt like in a, in a lot of respects, um, You know, mental health and substance abuse workers are in frontline of this thing. And, um, you know, the courage that it takes to deal with your own fear while helping other people is a real deal.
And, um, you know, taking the risks with the illness in and of itself as well, particularly in rehab facilities. You’re right. Mine is much easier on an outpatient facility, but still all of those outpatient therapists and stuff, man, like, you know, hats off to you and thank you for what you’re doing. And thank you so much for being on our show and sharing with us.
Mandy Baker: [01:03:49] Thank you and same to you guys for helping get the word out.
Chris Gadzik: [01:03:53] Are you ready for our, uh, high five clap sort of thing on three, two, one a good deal, man. Craig, are we done? What are we doing next? I think actually I got an idea of what we doing next. Should I, uh, should I, should I pop the, uh, the information there?
You got anything to Sum us up?
Craig Graves: [01:04:10] No, I don’t have anything else to say. I think you can go ahead.
Chris Gadzik: [01:04:12] So actually, ironically, I think that a, if my show lineup is correct, we’re going to go in hit, um, uh, follow this conversation up with absolutely another longterm care facility, reality. The senior care facilities are.
Uh, so we’re going to do a back to back here, you know, and, and, and talk about what they’re dealing with with elder care and whatnot. So, um, tell them how to click and share an episode and take us out of here. We’ll see you guys next week
Craig Graves: [01:04:34] throughatherapistseyes.com. We have. Each show listed there.
You can listen to it there or on any podcast platform. And you can also subscribe to our social media from our website. That’s really it.
Chris Gadzik: [01:04:47] See you next week.