Now that we are clear on EFT (listen to the last show) we can start building on that to solidify our marriages.
In this episode we talk about Managing Expectations in Marriage. We all have expectations whether they are part of our conscious or unconscious. We develop these expectations from experiences in life including our parents, our childhood, past relationships, and other things. All these experiences mold our beliefs.
If our spouse doesn’t live up to these expectations conflict can arise. So how do we manage all these expectations?
Tune in see Marriage Expectations Through a Therapist’s Eyes!
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Episode #012 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Good evening. Good afternoon. Or good morning to Through a Therapist’s eyes. I am Chris Gazdik. He is Craig graves. I am a mental health and substance abuse therapist. He is a coach. I have a book available soon rediscovering emotions and becoming your best self. And Craig is an unbeatable mind is up running and willing to work with you.
Find him at get this Craig. I wrote it down, man. Proud of me. Yeah. Wininyourmind.com I know you’ve been working on that site. Is it up and running and looking fresh and sharp?
Craig Graves: [00:00:52] Yeah, so looking good. That’s ready to go.
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:54] Alright, man. Congratulations on that. Thank you. We welcome you to through a therapist’s eyes, the podcast, seeing the world through the lens of a therapist and a coach being aware.
This is not to deliver of therapy services in any way. Check out the website. What is it, Mr. Graves,
Craig Graves: [00:01:10] Throughatherapistseyes.com
Chris Gazdik: [00:01:12] where you can get full show transcriptions categories, where you can easily find shows of likeminded topic. I think we got like 10, 15 shows on, on pretty much the topics that we cover.
It’s a really good becoming a nice, well breathed, platform to be able to get good information, put 10 hours in on those shows on a particular topic. And I think you’re going to be pretty well informed.
Yeah, I agree. I think it’s a pretty good catalog.
Yeah. got other things on there that I think that you’ll enjoy a newest, developing Mister Neal.
Was that on there yet? The books are, where are we at with that? They’re
Craig Graves: [00:01:48] totally getting loaded.
Chris Gazdik: [00:01:49] Okay. We’re slowly loading all of the books that we’ve talked about. And as we talk about books and authors and have them on which we will have more soon, you can go onto the site and actually easily find them and, different, different perks along the way with it.
And it’s a way to support the show. Cause we have affiliate links. We get a, I don’t know what, like 7 cents from a book sale.
Craig Graves: [00:02:10] Yeah. I don’t know what it
Chris Gazdik: [00:02:10] is, but every little bit helps to, to help us up, you know, get things bought and paid for and going along with our shows. So mr. Graves, this is the human emotional experience I propose to you that we figure this thing out together.
Let’s do it. Alright. So, I figured, would stay with marriage this week. You know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a topic that we covered last week. I got some feedback too, man. I had to actually somebody that listened to, you know, the episode 11 and then the one that we redid did there, and I hope it’s still are on the site.
As episode one Oh one. I know we kind of talked about taking the numbers off now that we have categories, it’s easier for people to find shows on our thing, but it was cool because they were able to, to talk about how it was, you know, listening to the first one from long ago, and then listening to the remade.
One gave a big platform to, you know, to be able to, to grasp the whole concept. Right. And I thought that was neat. cause marriage is a big issue. It’s a big issue that I find people, you know, very interested in. Maybe, maybe one of the more interested topics I think that we cover. What do you think about that?
Craig Graves: [00:03:14] I think that’s probably true without actually verifying this statement. I believe that we have more downloads of marriage episodes than any, any other category on our site. So that’s a definitely a topic people are interested in
Chris Gazdik: [00:03:31] and I know part of the reason for that, like I said, last time too, is I, I refer a lot of my clients to that particular show because dude, it’s, I use it all the time and we’ll weave that in.
Anytime we talk about marriage, will you probably hear the letters EFT just to nauseate you that’s cause it’s so. Profound in it. So, this is a show I just kind of picked her up a little bit of a random topic. so far as you know, following up on marriage, let’s apply some of the things we talked about with the EFT to a particular area of marriage that I think is, is really interesting component.
That, that when you start going deeper on, you know, such a close relationship is marriage is, the title here managing expectations in marriage. You know, expectations are a big part of, actually probably interestingly the positive fabric that keeps the relationship together and a destructive force that tears things apart.
I just created that on the fly. Hmm. How’s that sound? That’s so crazy. Like contradictory,
Craig Graves: [00:04:35] say that again.
Chris Gazdik: [00:04:36] I don’t know if I can
Craig Graves: [00:04:39] play that back.
Chris Gazdik: [00:04:41] seriously. Well, I think I said something along the lines of, you know, a fabric, a part of the glue expectations could be part of the glue that really holds things together in a very positive and healthy way versus the, you know, to destructive nature that it can did.
It can have expectations, can have tearing things apart.
Craig Graves: [00:05:01] No man expectations cannot be met and that causes things to derail. And that’s the way I see it, how we’re going to get married and live happily ever after. Yeah. I wish this person would put their dishes in the dishwasher instead of leave him in the sink.
Jesus, I didn’t expect this, you know?
Chris Gazdik: [00:05:22] Yeah. And, and, and that’s. Absolutely. I think it is. It’s interesting. It’s easier for you to see the destructive nature of expectations, tearing things apart.
Craig Graves: [00:05:33] Yeah, I think so.
Chris Gazdik: [00:05:35] Interesting. That’s usually what you say when you’re hearing something. It
Craig Graves: [00:05:39] clicks well, you expect, I mean, I think, you know, you don’t expect, I mean, what’s the, what’s the divorce rate.
Chris Gazdik: [00:05:46] Hi. Yeah, it sucks. It’s going down. I
Craig Graves: [00:05:48] think people expect their particular marriage to be better. Otherwise, why would you get married? And we’re not going to be in that category our expectations are much higher,
Chris Gazdik: [00:05:57] right? Yeah. Yeah. So maybe, maybe, maybe through the show, maybe I’ll try to check back in with you.
You think about it as we go. How can it actually be? How can expectations, how can they be. A component that actually holds things together really nicely, because I think that’s actually equally as, so
Craig Graves: [00:06:19] setting some expectations,
Chris Gazdik: [00:06:21] broadly, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know yeah.
Craig Graves: [00:06:24] Like expectations that it’s not going to be easy, the expectations that it’s going to require work and there’ll be ups and downs and yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:06:35] You come at it with that kind of a perspective.
Craig Graves: [00:06:37] Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: [00:06:38] I submit to you that they’re
Craig Graves: [00:06:39] going to be rosy all the time and, you know, be some struggles and some more highs and lows. Just a few. Yeah, just a few. Yeah. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: [00:06:50] You know, that’s part of it, you know, I think that, I was actually thinking about it in a different direction, but you’re right.
I mean, I see that, that you, you, you can, you can see it from that angle. I think their growth good and bad, you know, ultimately at the end of the show, you’re going to realize that it’s kind of how they come about, you know, that is probably the big. You know, the biggest factor there. you know, so, and, but I’ll just, I’ll just give it to you.
The T now really read off from the get go. I mean, one of the things along those lines of, you know, how, how they’re developed. Is is to me a really important part of what we’re talking about. good and bad, you know, so I guess I’m stealing a thunder away from the show and we’ll go much deeper into what is all about this, but, you know, bad, very, very bad destructive tears relationship report when we assume how things will be and then getting angry when they’re not.
And I think that’s what. You were talking about
Craig Graves: [00:07:46] that’s what I’m talking about, right? Yep, absolutely.
Chris Gazdik: [00:07:49] Right. Longstanding resentments can be developed here or remain in place too long or develop a new fashion because expectations also, by the way, change different points of time, you know, with the, with the marriage and longterm marriage is very different than in the beginning.
You know, right, right. So bad, terrible destructive. When we assume how things are going to be. And then we get angry when they’re not good. When we reach agreements or establish norms of longer standing behavior, that’s actually very good expectations to have you have Sunday meals together every week for about three years.
And you’re on the, what would that be for, you know, 30, how many weeks is there? 52 weeks. So we got 150 seventh week. You would expect to have a Sunday meal together. Right? That’s what I mean by norms. So when you have a very normal reality, that is what you can expect. Those expectations are very helpful because it holds us together.
But also then agreements. I mean, if you’re sitting here saying this is what we want, I do, well, I don’t want to do that. Okay. Well, what can we do differently? Okay. Let’s figure this out. Reference our conflict resolution show months ago, right? You go through a process and you come to an agreement. I expect that agreement is going to be followed.
And that is an accountability thing between you and I. We have agreed. And that’s an expectation. It’s funny that you started out negative because expectations, I think carry a bad rap. They get a bad rap and, and. Because there’s pressure, you know what works out better. Craig, if you and I are going to make an agreement, we’re going to go to the gym once a week and you’re going to get my happy but in shape versus nah, Craig, I’m good, man.
I’m going to, I’m going to do this, man. I’m doing this at home. I’m happy when I get home from work being by myself.
Craig Graves: [00:09:48] Well, if you’ve got accountability, you’re going to be much better, right? Yeah. Oh yeah. Bottom line. No, no doubt
Chris Gazdik: [00:09:54] expectations create accountability. Can we say that
Craig Graves: [00:10:00] expectations create accountable if there’s shared expectations?
I’m assuming, I’m assuming what you’re saying is, you know, in my mind and I’m going to get married and live happily ever after, you know, in my mind and I’m going to get married and, Oh, I don’t know, man. I don’t want to sound sexist, but. You know, I just expect things to be one way in my own mind, but unless I share that to my, with my partner in their shared expectations and understandings, and you might even say unless there’s roles and responsibilities and maybe rules and things like that, put it into place then, then things can be bad.
And that’s kinda what I meant by. When you said I was going into a negative place, you kind of caught my attention, but unless, unless they’re shared expectations, I think there’s potential for things to go South
Chris Gazdik: [00:10:56] and Craig, as you’re talking, I write down and it’s going to be in my book, a little blue book that I write quotes and thoughts and stuff from.
And we have just created one together. That will be in the marriage book. Oh yeah. Yup. Yes, sir. What’d you write down shared expectations, create accountability and hold things tightly together.
Craig Graves: [00:11:13] I,
Chris Gazdik: [00:11:13] yeah, I think that’s a, that’s a. That’s a good statement.
Craig Graves: [00:11:17] So I expect some royalties from the marriage book.
Chris Gazdik: [00:11:20] Absolutely not. I wrote it down, man. so that’s where, you know, ultimately where we’re heading and, you know, we have, I have a lot of deeper thoughts and stuff that we’ll kick around back and forth here, but I mean, that’s the, you know, that’s the in and out of it. I, you know, this, this, this was a, some thoughts that I’ve had, you know, a few years ago, you know, working with.
With couples and things and experiencing it myself, you know, I mean, I’ve gotten in trouble, man, in my own head, having expectations that I didn’t really have agreements with. And by the way, this is with friends and other people kind of as well, you know, You, and I could have differences of thought of how things are going to happen, and you have an expectation to me and I have a different expectation to you.
We’re in trouble. We’re going to be fighting.
Craig Graves: [00:12:05] That’s right. That’s right. You know that that’s true.
Chris Gazdik: [00:12:08] It happens in other relationships outside of marriage, but we share an interest. We share an agreement and we hold each other accountable to doing a weekly podcast show. Well, it’s going to happen because if it doesn’t happen, I’ll be mad at you with sort of justified reason or vice versa.
Right, right. Yeah. So that’s the longest short of it, but, let’s talk about what, you know, Definition, right. I like definitions and words and how we, how we use them, what they mean. I think that’s, that’s always an important thing. So quote, unquote, definition of an expectation, a strong belief that something will happen or be the case in the future period.
Right now everyone’s probably heard like you’re hitting on hard, right? When you get married and you have an expectation that this is what a wife does, this is what a husband does. That’s an expectation it’s going to happen. And then it doesn’t happen. Then you’re just like screaming, you know? So I think that’s a, it’s probably not too hard.
I mean, you know, people generally know what an expectation is. We do agree. It’s not
Craig Graves: [00:13:10] too tricky on this thing. So
Chris Gazdik: [00:13:11] hopefully you,
Craig Graves: [00:13:13] now it’s a strong belief that something will happen or be the case in the
Chris Gazdik: [00:13:16] future. There you go. Where’d you get that? I
Craig Graves: [00:13:18] just thought it up.
Chris Gazdik: [00:13:23] This is an interesting thing. Let’s do a little segment on what you would think also would be easy. People will probably hear this statement, listening to the show thinking, Oh yeah. You know, absolutely. I mean, who wouldn’t I do. Okay. Craig, do you know what your expectations are
Craig Graves: [00:13:43] for marriage?
Chris Gazdik: [00:13:44] For the show for.
Marriage for a friendship, you know, do you, do you know what your expectations are very easily loading it, obviously saying
Craig Graves: [00:13:56] I could probably, yeah. I could probably rattle off some stuff. If we talked about a particular situation,
Chris Gazdik: [00:14:01] if you put thought to it. Yeah. If you were asked
Craig Graves: [00:14:05] it, wouldn’t take too much time to think of what I think of my expectations about a given situation or
scenario
Chris Gazdik: [00:14:11] I’m going to submit to you that there are times where.
You haven’t thought about it, you haven’t been asked. And I think that we’re all in the same boat that we don’t even know oftentimes what our expectations are.
Craig Graves: [00:14:27] Maybe not, you know, maybe not, but I think that, you know, I don’t know, maybe subconsciously that we do
Chris Gazdik: [00:14:35] and there’s, I think a deep point, a deep thought.
Yeah.
It’s not on my show, prep notes, but. You know, I don’t, I don’t think we really understand subconsciousness and how that really deeply works, but I do, I reference it often because I thought it was really cool dr. Spickler’s perspective on tacit learning. I mean, our brains know stuff, you know, that we don’t know our brain knows.
I mean, that sounds crazy. Doesn’t it? It really sounds that doesn’t make sense.
Craig Graves: [00:15:08] Yeah. I thought about, I thought about dr. Spickler today. Oh, did I was having a parent teacher conference with my son’s math teacher and he’s in precalc calculus. And, so the, you know, the, the teacher says, sometimes it looks like, you know, Jonathan gets a blank, look on his, on, in his eyes, like a deer in headlights look.
And he said, he said, you know, kids, they don’t understand. Sometimes they don’t understand now. He said, but eventually they will. Yeah. He’s there. And it might be later on down the road, you said he had one person who came to him, who was a student and now his son is a student and he said, you know, mr. So, and so, why wasn’t it this easy in high school math has changed?
And the teacher said, yeah, the math has not changed exactly the same, but the guy got it now, you know, Anyway, that’s off topic.
Chris Gazdik: [00:15:57] No, it’s actually not off topic because I think that there’s so much going on that level that we really, I mean, you know, I used to say like, you know, how do you feel today? It’s a simple question, but who sits there and really thinks about that.
Now make this point to clients all the time in my office, I ask it and we talk about it and we put focus on it. If you don’t put focus on it to a certain extent, you probably don’t even really know how you’re feeling, you know? And, and in, in a broader spectrum, then in the much the same way, you’re not really going to know what your expectations are from a relationship, from an event, from a person or a situation you don’t cause you don’t think about it, but your brain knows, you know, If I walking your house.
And I, and I, and I heard your dog, I would have an expectation I haven’t thought about this till just now I would have an expectation that that dog is going to come up to me. He’s going to greet me. I’m going to pet him and he’s going to be quiet after five minutes and that’s going to be kind of a nice experience.
Craig Graves: [00:17:07] It’d be wrong in my house.
Chris Gazdik: [00:17:08] Right. What’s going to happen.
Craig Graves: [00:17:10] She’s going to bark for like three hours,
Chris Gazdik: [00:17:12] literally audience, literally,
Craig Graves: [00:17:13] even if we put her upstairs in one of the rooms,
Chris Gazdik: [00:17:15] I’ve actually had, some, some listeners tell me they’ve heard.
Craig Graves: [00:17:21] Right?
Chris Gazdik: [00:17:22] Yeah. Yeah. So, but I didn’t know that I really even thought about what is my expectation going to be when I come and meet Craig’s dog.
Hm.
Craig Graves: [00:17:30] I don’t know. I think we all do have expectations about everything. Yeah. On a subconscious level.
Chris Gazdik: [00:17:37] Yeah,
Craig Graves: [00:17:38] no, I sent you a text. I expected a response.
Chris Gazdik: [00:17:40] Wow,
Craig Graves: [00:17:40] perfect. I did, it was an eye, but you know, I was washing dishes and cutting the grass. Well, I expected to get an answer back a lot sooner than that. Yup.
Well, tough pal.
Chris Gazdik: [00:17:51] And based on your, can we say that based on your subconscious expectations that you haven’t really thought about, you will deduce thoughts and meaning.
Craig Graves: [00:18:04] Yeah, right? Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:18:06] Yeah. That’s dangerous.
Craig Graves: [00:18:07] Yeah. Yeah. You start getting emotional.
Chris Gazdik: [00:18:09] If you think about it,
Craig Graves: [00:18:11] you start getting triggered.
Chris Gazdik: [00:18:13] It’s a word.
Craig Graves: [00:18:14] Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:18:15] It’s a word. And then what happens when you get triggered in your marriage
Craig Graves: [00:18:19] begins to blow up
Chris Gazdik: [00:18:21] it’s not pretty is not pretty, so yeah, on the surface you would think to say, Oh yeah, I know what I expect. I know what I want. There’s a question. What do you want? I don’t know. I just want to hang out. Great.
What will, what do you mean you want to hang out here to house? You want to hang out at a restaurant? You want to hang out in a club. Do you want to hang out at your parents? Do you want to hang out at my parents? You want to hang out? What? I don’t know. Can we just relax? Great. Go with it, Craig. How are you going to relax?
You want to relax? What are we going to do?
Craig Graves: [00:18:54] What do you mean
Chris Gazdik: [00:18:55] in an expectation in a conversation with your wife? Right? You’re going to relax it, you know, in the yard, you’re going to want to want to relax, listening to music. Do you want to relax? Watch some TV. Do you want to read? What’s your get
right.
Write down the word, you know, so you want to go out to eat. Okay. Well, where’s the, what’s the next question we go to.
Craig Graves: [00:19:15] Where do you, where do you wanna go eat?
Chris Gazdik: [00:19:16] Right? I don’t know where you want to go.
Craig Graves: [00:19:18] Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:19:20] What’s your expectation here. You want Chinese? Do you want pizza? Do you want something quick? Do you want something slow?
Do you want something expensive? Do you want something cheap? I don’t know.
Craig Graves: [00:19:27] I don’t know. I don’t care. Whatever you want,
Chris Gazdik: [00:19:28] write whatever you want to, but what’s happening is there’s a subconscious reality and all those little mock situations, right. Where you kind of do know, and there are people that have great problems, serious problems with saying.
What they want simply generally don’t do.
Craig Graves: [00:19:47] Why do you think that is man? And do some people do say, yeah, I want steak.
Chris Gazdik: [00:19:52] Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, the easy answer is we can weave EFT into that. Actually. It’s a good question. Which one do you think is more likely to tell the other one they want
Craig Graves: [00:20:01] the abandonment persons were very likely to say, I don’t care, whatever, whatever you want.
Yeah. The engulfment person probably says, yeah, mistaken. Interesting.
Chris Gazdik: [00:20:09] Why do you think that way? What, what gears your brain that way?
Craig Graves: [00:20:13] I think the abandonment person is probably more of a pleaser. If you will, you know, they don’t want there to be any conflict or any strife, they just want to make things to be happy.
And the other person to be happy, maybe I don’t know, is that where you’re headed
Chris Gazdik: [00:20:28] it isn’t but let’s stay here for a minute because. Both an engulfment person and an abandonment person Can have a tendency to be people pleasers, but it comes from a different perspective. I’m going to be a people pleaser because I don’t want to receive too much attention.
Cause I know that’s going to be criticized criticism of me and control. So. Which one is that
Craig Graves: [00:20:54] that’s the engulfment right.
Chris Gazdik: [00:20:56] Alright. I’m going to be a people pleaser because I want to make sure this person’s happy because if they’re happy, then we’re together and we’re well, and I’m going to race around trying to make that be,
Craig Graves: [00:21:07] yeah.
They’re not going to leave me if I eat what they want.
Chris Gazdik: [00:21:12] Right. Right. So we all run around trying to be people pleasers, but for, but from very different perspectives now. When it comes to stating an opinion or stating a desire, actually saying what you want one person do, the engulfment or abandonment person tends to be externalized because if you know, and we can get then we’re together and that’s great.
One person tends to be internalized. So. I’m going to kind of remain distant and aloof and a little bit safe being, you know, not taking a risk of putting it out there, which one is which
Craig Graves: [00:21:54] you got me there? I don’t know.
Chris Gazdik: [00:21:55] Well, if I’m going to be aloof and not put something out there and be kind of hidden and
Craig Graves: [00:22:01] that’s going to be, the engulfement person
Chris Gazdik: [00:22:02] put a wall.
Yeah. So I’m not going to tell you anything,
Craig Graves: [00:22:06] right? Okay. Right again. Yeah. I’m thinking I’m falling
Chris Gazdik: [00:22:09] a little bit. Yeah. So if I, if I want to put something out there, you know, and make sure you know, so that we can be on the same page, I’m going to be coming at that from an it, from an abandonment perspective, because all my God, we got to do something we gotta be together.
So let me tell you what I think we could do.
Craig Graves: [00:22:25] That’s interesting. Right, man.
Chris Gazdik: [00:22:27] So it’s not always the case and this is this isn’t this isn’t. We just went through a little yeah. All interaction that goes kind of deep into the processes that go on. And this is where people can get really confused when they say, well, I do both right.
But, but, but if you look at the subconsciousness of it almost just to use that word, when you look at the foundational underlyings that happen in these regular daily interactions in a marriage, you’ll, you’ll begin to see, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the primary insecurities that play out. And that is generally, you know, an engulfment person is not even going to be expressing and oftentimes so much so that they don’t know what they want.
They’re not good at answering that question.
Craig Graves: [00:23:04] So the engulfment person is more likely to say whatever you want.
Chris Gazdik: [00:23:10] Funny, right. The abandonment person will say that as well, but for different reasons,
Craig Graves: [00:23:16] see, I say that
right. I don’t
care. What do you want to eat? Right. And if you said pizza or pasta or something like that, I’d say, nah, I don’t want that because it’s just not what I eat.
But if you stay within a certain amount of, you know, certain categories where I could eat, cause I’m kind of a particular eater, you know, Then I really don’t care. Yeah. Unless I’m really craving, which doesn’t happen that often, it doesn’t matter to me, you know?
Chris Gazdik: [00:23:45] And we all do that. That’s like a kind of a year universal thing.
What’s not as universal is, is being able to decipher it. When you really gotta make a decision. When you really got to make a call, it can be, it can be hard for all of us really say the. The answer to the question, what do you want? Cause there’s a risk when you put it out there and we all struggle with taking a risk by putting something out there, but when you’re shut down and walling off and creating distance, you’re going to be less likely to do that.
When you’re pursuing, trying to get close, trying to engage, then you’re going to put something out there more likely. Okay. That’s the tendency.
Craig Graves: [00:24:26] Could you take that further and say that particular. Abandonment or engulfment is more indecisive in general or is that a different trait? Cause you know, only they say that the biggest killer of businesses in decisiveness,
Chris Gazdik: [00:24:40] you know, it’s interesting.
Craig Graves: [00:24:42] the biggest cause of failure is indecision and stuff like that.
Chris Gazdik: [00:24:46] I never thought of that you’re asking is indecision a part of the foundations that we find in, in this. I’d really have to think about that more. That’s a pretty, that’s a pretty good question. Really. And my, my first impression, my gut feeling there is that no, that’s not really related to those two insecurities one or the other, but.
But, but I say that, and, and I, in, in the, in the five, six years, seven years, I’ve been, you know, kind of playing around with this emotion focused therapy stuff. It’s it’s thoughts like that, that bump up into my head. And then I think about them and I kind of work them around and I began to see those patterns in couples.
So that’s actually a bit of a new one. I think it’s a really excellent question. does indecision equate one way or the other a little bit? Yeah. I’ll I’ll think about it. I’ll think about it, but knowing your expectations, going back to that. So, so much of a concern to me is that when someone’s not really self aware and doesn’t even know what they are, I think we’ve made that point.
Like, it’s a, it’s a big deal here. Here’s a letter B in this little segment of, do you know your expectations? Well, you know what, Craig, I’ve always downplayed the gender roles. You know, you ever hear anybody talk about gender roles in a marriage,
Craig Graves: [00:25:59] gender roles? yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:26:01] Oh, yeah. What are the norms for the genders?
Craig Graves: [00:26:04] Well, I mean, you know, I guess you went back to the fifties, the, the, the man works and, you know, comes home and the wife’s got dinner ready. She’s taken care of the kids, you know, and that’s kinda the, that’s kind of where you’re going with that. Right?
Chris Gazdik: [00:26:19] A man’s got to drive the car.
Craig Graves: [00:26:20] Yeah, man, drives a car, a woman cooks the food and
Chris Gazdik: [00:26:24] she cleans, he cuts the grass,
Craig Graves: [00:26:26] changes the diapers.
Chris Gazdik: [00:26:28] Yeah. Yeah. Those, those, all those gender norms and stuff, man, I I’ve never really put a lot of weight in and there’s been books written about that stuff. I know there have, there’s been a lot of material created around the idea of gender norms and I’ve never really read a book or come across something that was really proporting, strong gender norms and thought, wow, bam, boom.
There it is. That explains a lot. I haven’t, I haven’t heard that because there’s a lot of, you know, the gender norms for. For men and women would be, men are going to be engulfment based and women are going to be abandonment based. That’s haven’t tell me it didn’t even come close
Craig Graves: [00:27:04] to what I see. abandonment engulfment are different than the gender roles you’re talking about.
Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: [00:27:10] you would think that the man has the man-cave shuts down and withdrawals. You’d think that the woman wants to, you know, meet on the deck and talk all the time and be emotional, being me more emotional and discuss that’s the way they talk about gender.
Craig Graves: [00:27:21] Yeah. But you can still be, you could still fall into those categories and be defined by the gender roles.
We just talked about the, you know, I can be an abandonment man and still be out working. And while the, while the engulfment woman’s at home, Doing our thing, you know?
Chris Gazdik: [00:27:37] Right. And so here’s where, and it’s why it’s on my list. Knowing your expectations. Gendered expectations is a part, I know that sounds a little contradictory, but it sounds, it is a part of knowing what your expectations are because we’ve been, so societaly drilled into
Craig Graves: [00:27:55] Oh yeah.
I totally agree with you, you know, and I totally agree with you. And if somebody has expectations like that, if a man has expectations that. His wife’s going to stay home and take care of the kids while he’s out. You know,
Chris Gazdik: [00:28:07] hanging out with the boys
Craig Graves: [00:28:09] were doing, doing his work or whatever it, she wants to be a, and she wants to work too.
Then that’s something that, that needs to be talked about. And so the expectations are clear when there’s, when there’s a marriage,
Chris Gazdik: [00:28:20] there’s a lot of gendered expectations about it, kids, right? The kids are interacted with. staying at home versus, you know, I mean, guys that are in the, you know, what do they call them guys that stay at home, take care of the kids, that what are they called?
Craig Graves: [00:28:33]
Dads I think a lot, you know, obviously, obviously a lot of those lines have been broken down. Right. And to me it seems like these days the, and more engaged with kids and they were, when I was growing up,
Chris Gazdik: [00:28:46] I think so. I think so
Craig Graves: [00:28:48] I grew up much, much like what we’re talking about. You know, my mom went to nursing school when I was seven or eight years old and, and ended up working out of the house after that.
But up until that point, she was home and my dad, you know, worked and my dad would come home and dinner would be ready and then he would eat dinner. Sometimes he not to go outside and have a game of catch sometimes not, you know, he’d sit and read his paper and he’d watch the six o’clock news, maybe a show or two and go to bed and get up and do it again the next day.
And, You know, for me now, it’s like, you know, and my dad was probably at all my baseball games. I don’t miss any events. I’m going to school and having lunch with my kids, you know, I’m, I’m an, every. event. I have, you know, I’m changing baby diapers and, you know, I did, I did all that stuff. And even a lot of dads do that.
A lot of dads do that.
Chris Gazdik: [00:29:37] I got so good at changing diapers. I wouldn’t miss a play in the football game.
Craig Graves: [00:29:41] Yeah. Yeah. We’re right in looking back. I think a lot of the men that, that I knew as a child, I can just like my dad did, you know, you know?
Chris Gazdik: [00:29:54] Yeah. And I think we have been able to kind of break that down here.
I didn’t expect to spend so much time on this, but you know, that’s fine. I think. My big reservation and particularly why I get frustrated when I hear people kind of go marriage, gender, and that’s where they stay. It, it, it, it destroys people to be able to, to pursue their emotional security with the abandonment and engulfement tendencies.
I mean, it, it, it blocks man from being emotional when they’re in the abandonment role. Cause you feel like a wimp, you feel like a jerk, you know, you just feel like you’re not manly being emotional. And, and, and women, consequently, when they’re in the engulfment role, feel like they can’t, you know, like want the she shed, they can’t want to get away.
They, you know, they’re, they’re supposed to be like, you know, the, the comforting caretaking wife and they don’t feel that way. And I think that we need to recognize that so that we can identify, like, you know, that you, you don’t have to be in the gender norms. And in fact, you’re not emotionally built in, in a way though, the danger of having.
Family, gender norms running in your head and not realize it is terrible, you know? Yeah. So that’s a little bit of a rant there maybe, but
Craig Graves: [00:31:12] yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:31:13] Does that, does that make sense? Did I say that? All right.
Craig Graves: [00:31:17] Yeah, I think you did. I think he did a pretty good job with
Chris Gazdik: [00:31:19] the family culture that
Craig Graves: [00:31:21] has been broken down.
I mean, these days. A lot of families have to have two incomes to make it, you know, so a lot of the norms we grew up with feminism and all this other stuff that’s happened has changed that quite a bit. So the, the roles for genders kind of more blended these days, I would say,
Chris Gazdik: [00:31:38] I think so. And. And probably needed, well, I won’t say probably I think he needed to be, you know, for, for part of what I was just saying.
There it’s a family culture is a, is another big thing about knowing your expectations. Look at your family culture, look at your spouses, family culture. How did that drive your expectations? How does that drive your expectations? How will that drive your expectations? Notice I said that past present and future, because MoMA, when my parents retired, this is what we did and I haven’t really thought about it, but that’s kind of what I expected.
would happened. I don’t know. Yeah, but that, but if you’re not thinking about that and you’re not aware of it, it’ll attack you when you’re coming across with big decisions.
Craig Graves: [00:32:16] Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:32:17] Right. Beliefs drive our expectations. third or fourth cognitive therapy plays a big role here in marriage counseling. Right?
The beliefs that you have will drive our expectations. I think that’s a big statement. That I wanted to camp out on for a little bit. Yeah. We’re okay. On time. When you look at the beliefs that you have the beliefs about yourselves, the beliefs about kids and children, the beliefs about keeping up with the Joneses, whether you believe you have that belief or not, we all want nice things because we see other people have nice things.
Don’t discredit that that’s. A thing, the belief that you have in so far as fear, We’ve talked a lot about EFT again tonight. That’s a big factor that, and, and you know what I mean by beliefs with the EFT, right? Those two, remember the two sections where you’re not in, what I think is an important to you and you don’t care what I’m saying and you’re going to leave me.
And then, you know, the, the other side of it, well, you’re going to criticize me. You’re going to control me. And, you know, I don’t even know my self, you know, those beliefs.
Craig Graves: [00:33:20] Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:33:21] Badly driven by EFT insecurity based fears. And when you’re not aware of them and most people times, and not on that level, most of times people are not aware that they’re on that level.
They’re not, they don’t even understand what engulfment is, you know? So, so beliefs about ourselves belief about our kids, keeping up with the Joneses fears of EFT, play a big part, financial beliefs. What are your beliefs about money? You know, how many emotional financial beliefs and thoughts people have about money?
I know you do the Dave Ramsey.
Craig Graves: [00:33:50] I don’t know, but I’m sure it’s a big list.
Chris Gazdik: [00:33:52] Oh man. You know, money is a huge emotional thing that people have great level beliefs about
Craig Graves: [00:33:59] deep,
Chris Gazdik: [00:34:00] deep. What are the known reasons for divorce? Right? Those are what I used to call flash points
Craig Graves: [00:34:06] I mean money. One of the top
Chris Gazdik: [00:34:07] ones. That’s what they say.
Craig Graves: [00:34:09] Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:34:09] Money and parenting. You know, I think one other thing, things, the big four, you know, the, you know, money parenting, family, in-laws and you know, family culture, you know, differing on those things
before,
Craig Graves: [00:34:21] before, so it’s called, huh? The big four of divorce.
Chris Gazdik: [00:34:25] It’s what I, the way I’ve always thought about it.
The big four reasons. Yeah. Yeah. I’m blanking on the fourth, but I heard Dave Ramsey talking about this once and he said they put a lot of research into it. And he found that, you know, these are the big things that you got to deal with. That religion was one of them, you know, where you really deferred on, on religious beliefs.
Any anyway, I don’t Sue. I submit to you that that’s not that’s that misses the point I submit to you that those topics, miss the point, communication is always on that list to call it the big five.
Craig Graves: [00:34:57] So the big four, You’re saying I missed the point.
Chris Gazdik: [00:34:59] Yes. Yeah. Expectations are a big factor behind. Divorce for sure from the EFT perspectives, right.
Then when those expectations and those fears from abandonment and engulfment are not handled well, then you don’t deal with those big five or four things. Well, if, and this is important, and if you deal with those beliefs and fears from the EFT, abandonment and engulfment perspective, if you deal with those, well, then.
Those big reasons for divorce are managed well, and you don’t have near as much of a problem. You follow that. Yeah. Like that’s, that’s big. That’s crucial.
Craig Graves: [00:35:42] Yeah. Right. I have an issue. Let’s say it’s money.
Chris Gazdik: [00:35:46] Yeah.
Craig Graves: [00:35:47] And then there’s, there’s, there’s something on the table, right. There’s an issue money. And then you’re saying the abandonment and engulfement cycles kicking in, and that just starts to spiral things.
Completely out of control down, down the rabbit hole,
Chris Gazdik: [00:36:04] down the rabbit hole, into the cycle and on and on you go got it for years.
Craig Graves: [00:36:09] Yeah. That makes sense.
Chris Gazdik: [00:36:09] Circular back in it. And then you get out of it back in it, then you get out of it back in it, and then you get out of it literally over and over and over again.
It’s crazy. And when I’m coming up on a couples counseling situation and it’s, it’s been, it’s been 10 years of that, or 15 years of that, or 20 years of that, it’s kinda like all, alright, mr. counselor where’s bottom ninth, ending down by five, you know, One out counts to three
Craig Graves: [00:36:39] RIvera is on the mound.
Chris Gazdik: [00:36:41] What are you going to do for me?
If we’re there, as long as the mouth. Perfect. It feels hopeless. People get really desperate with this. And by the way, if you’re listening to the show, just because you’re interested in marriage, Craig don’t wait that long.
Craig Graves: [00:36:59] Yeah. I remember you saying that somewhere along the line that people come to you when it’s almost too late.
A lot of times,
Chris Gazdik: [00:37:06] just so much energy built up this
negative energy. Yeah.
So much negativity.
Craig Graves: [00:37:10] I think it will be so helpful if couples went once every six months just for a tuneup or just for a bang, you know,
Chris Gazdik: [00:37:18] once a quarter. Yeah.
Craig Graves: [00:37:20] Yeah. And maybe had somebody looking in from the outside.
Chris Gazdik: [00:37:23] Couldn’t agree. More
Craig Graves: [00:37:24] Neil shaking his head.
Yeah. But I mean, seriously, I mean, cause you don’t see things. Maybe you don’t see things on the inside.
Chris Gazdik: [00:37:30] You don’t. Cause all that subconscious stuff is working before you started listening to show you never even probably heard of abandonment and engulfment driving your decisions and patterns.
Craig Graves: [00:37:39] I’d never heard it.
You know, that said that only ever before. I’d never heard that before.
Chris Gazdik: [00:37:43] Who thinks that way? Who. You know, who gets, who gets to Dating and starts to evaluate, Oh, this is the way I handle emotions. Oh, well this is the way I handle emotions. Yeah. Okay. Well, when you do that, then this is probably what that’s going to trigger for me.
Oh, I know. Cause when you do that, this is what happens for me.
Craig Graves: [00:38:01] Yeah. I’m going to write it. I’m going to write it online. Dating profile. I’m looking for an engulfment woman. I’m looking for an abandoned,
Chris Gazdik: [00:38:09] right. It’s better with my tendencies when I get triggered.
Craig Graves: [00:38:14] Yeah, get zero dates.
Chris Gazdik: [00:38:16] Oh my God. Friends are going to kill us after this one.
Craig Graves: [00:38:21] It was this guy who was like, gosh, weirdo.
Chris Gazdik: [00:38:24] Let’s move on to another second here. That was funny. Managing your expectations because they will likely change in a marriage over time. I think my brain might be tired and there was, Oh yeah, there was an article that I have in the next show that I was kind of wanting to dive deeply on.
So not this one. It’s kind of a message to myself. Yeah. but managing expectations they’re likely going to change over time is, is something that, that I, I didn’t really even have any articles with this because a lot of this is just kind of my own perusing and thoughts and stuff, but I did land on this and, and honestly, I thought this was really cool, Craig.
I really, I really think that I want to point you to check out that article and read it out. Cause it really kind of proved some things that I thought were pretty neat. Specifically thinking about longterm marriages. It was on psychology today. So listening audience it’s on our show notes. Mr. Mr. Neil will be absolutely sure to have that on there.
Right? And he just slowly nods and says like, of course Chris, that’s what we always do.
Their big point seems to be, you know, how they change early in marriage and in longterm marriages. So that’s not too, you know, brain shattering. But if you really think about that, this actually contradicts a little bit with what I just said about longterm norms. Right. We have a longterm norm, Craig, we, this is the way we’ve done it for 10 years.
And now we’ve gone through a two year period and it’s it’s, you know, and I’m looking at year 13 now I’m ticked off because I want those first 10 years away, it was right. So, wow. You read her packs and flexibility into your life and into your core self. If you’re going to be married for a long time, like you said, I do forever.
Cause that’s hard when one person wants to change a longterm norm and now you want to do something totally differently. And I’m kind of like, Whoa, yo, that’s not the way we, I didn’t sign up for this 10 years ago or 20 years ago. How do you handle that? Right. I have an expectation here that’s 15 years long and you’re telling me, what
Craig Graves: [00:40:44] do you think of an example?
Chris Gazdik: [00:40:45] I don’t think I know, because I want to move on to some healthy expectations for your run out of time, but I dunno. Can you, I mean,
Craig Graves: [00:40:53] I thought maybe you’ve experienced something in your office that you might be able to pull out real quick.
Chris Gazdik: [00:41:01] you know, Religion is something that pops in my mind. Okay.
So maybe we’ll go with that. Okay. Yeah. Look, I have it. We have a 10 year, norm of an expectation that we are participatory in church. We go, you know, two times a month or three times a month. And you know, we’ve, we’ve kind of always done that now. And now you you’re like, I’ve noticed you kind of start slipping.
Are you down with that? I’m a year later and say, wait a minute, dude, we’ve, we’ve gone to church. Like what? Like. Know 10 times together this year. What, what, what do you, what are we doing?
Craig Graves: [00:41:28] Or vice versa, right? Yeah. Or vice versa. Right. There was a guy, his name is Lee Strobel. And he wrote a book called the case for Christ.
And he was a legal editor of Chicago Tribune. And his wife came home and told him that she had gotten saved by Jesus. And he’s like, what? This is not what I signed up for. He was, they were basically atheists before this moment. And so. You know, his expectations of whatever they were doing was working for him.
And he’s like, all great. And I’m not gonna tell you the rest of the story and go look it up, but that’s an example.
Chris Gazdik: [00:42:03] Right? Right. No, that’s perfect. And, yeah, it’s, it’s. It’s a big part of when you, when you get people that here we go, we’re quote unquote, not communicating. Well, I hear that all the time, you know, session number one with a couple, right?
I mean, it’s like a staple standpoint. Standby. That’s the issue. Hope you’re beginning to figure out that that’s not the issue, but you know, those are those expectations changing when you kind of needle down into the issues and you kind of see some of these things and you think about them in that way.
And then you, you, you kind of get to that either the vice versa kind of thing. Yeah. You know, it plays out and it doesn’t play out pretty right. Doesn’t play out pretty. So here’s another thing that this article talked about managing your expectations. Right. Having them be too high. That’s weird. It’s interesting.
In fact, I wrote interesting point on the show prep here. Right? Like having your expectations be too high, high expectations are good. We’re always taught. I had high expectations for you son. Right? You’re going to be, you’re going to work here. We were high performance. We, we, we work hard. Aren’t high expectations.
Good.
Craig Graves: [00:43:14] They can be right, but when they’re not met and it, it can cause an issue. If you’re not flexible,
Chris Gazdik: [00:43:21] you know, all you abandonment folks out there. We have a tendency to put on a pedestal, the person that we’re married with. And there is incredible pressure on that. Yeah. I may, I’ve done that. I’ve done that and it feels hopeless.
It’s like, you know, dude, I can’t, you know, I can’t, I can’t measure, I can’t measure that. And that’s when expectations seems so daunting, so overwhelming. I
Craig Graves: [00:43:49] think expectations, high expectations are good, but you have to be open to the fact that they might not be met. And you’ve got to deal with that accordingly.
Chris Gazdik: [00:43:57] Yes, it has to be managed. We’re on a segment here of managing your expectations, you know, find a sweet spot, right. Be, be realistic is what, we’re, what, we’re what we’re looking for. Now. There’s another point that they made that I was thinking about here with expectations and managing them, Lots of longterm managers, they wrote about
Craig Graves: [00:44:19] marriages.
You said longterm manages
Chris Gazdik: [00:44:22] marriages become less emotionally driven, more like a partnership. They cite research that indicates that satisfaction tends to decline. Right. You know, they mentioned, and, and I, and that made me think of what you remember if I’ve ever referred to the biology of love, right?
Craig Graves: [00:44:37] Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:44:38] I heard you say that. I think so. It was very early on a show. I talk about it often though, you know, The pheromones and the hormones are all fired up the, Oh yeah. It has a beautiful little girl there. Boy, I can’t wait to get with her. Well, that guy is so hot. This is awesome. Your pheromones are kicking.
It’s also.
Craig Graves: [00:44:55] Yeah. I talked to, a therapist about that particular thing. Once they told me it lasts about two years
Chris Gazdik: [00:45:01] it’s Oh, it’s gone in two
Craig Graves: [00:45:02] years. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:45:03] Yeah. Starts to decrease at
Craig Graves: [00:45:04] six month
six more than reality sets in right now. The little stuff you thought was cute. Annoys the hell out. Absolutely.
Chris Gazdik: [00:45:11] Absolutely. It turns against you because your pheromones are gone.
Your hormones are like not helpful there. I guess you could say we’re geared to have a new sex partner every two years is the joke. I always like to make.
Craig Graves: [00:45:24] That, you know, I’ve heard that before, too. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:45:27] So, but I thought that was really neat. Longterm marriage has become less emotionally driven, more like a partnership and they cite research.
That satisfaction tends to decline. And then I, the biology of love for all of these that have been married out there for, you know, 15, 20 years and stuff. And you’re kind of getting into like, what are we doing? Ah, you know, I mean that, there’s, there’s some things that are. You know, that are almost working against you, if you’re not managing it right.
for them, it came down to realism. I said that word a little bit ago. I must be on the same page a little bit for them. It comes down to realism and flexibility in managing longterm or short term expectations. I meant to say, let me say that again, in managing longterm relationships, when it comes to your expectations.
Strive for realism and flexibility. I think that’s a pretty golden egg right there. Right. And those are hard. Be realistic when I’m panicked. I have to be close to you and we have to talk. All the time or let’s be realistic when you’re panicked and you have to get away, you have to drive away. You have to get into your soft, quiet, dark place by yourself or your bright place by yourself.
Right. That’s hard to be realistic. Certainly hard to be flexible. I think we all know that case easily made fair. Right? Lastly, older couples tend to become comfortable with each other and have made the proper adjustments so that they can better equipped to handle the demands of marriage. And I think that’s something that, that, that article was kind of focused on, you know, longterm, you know, relationships in, in, in, I just, I really thought that was cool.
Check, check that out. I really believe you’ll like it.
Craig Graves: [00:47:16] Yeah, I’ll check it out, man.
Chris Gazdik: [00:47:18] And then I’m not going to a lot of my own thoughts. And as far as managing, you know, expectations, I’m not going to spend a lot of time on because honestly, as much as we’ve talked about, you know, the EFT patterns, I think that’s what you gotta be.
We focused on the manage. Marital matters. It’s that simple. And that’s a lot of what I do in individual therapy with people and marital therapy with people in, with my own I’m self, which by the way, I suck at it. Right? Stuff is hard, is not easy to, to kick into at, at all. You want bonus material, mr.
Craig Graves: [00:47:56] Graves suggestions on healthy expectations.
Chris Gazdik: [00:48:00] No you’re going forward. Bonus is material is not only knowing your own patterns, not only knowing your own foundations. How about understanding? Compassionately the patterns and the, the fears and the factors for your spouse.
Craig Graves: [00:48:20] Well, hopefully you do, hopefully you do that
Chris Gazdik: [00:48:23] hard enough to understand your own. Yeah. And you’re not in the other person’s head.
Yeah.
Craig Graves: [00:48:28] To get it, but don’t just think you could get that through some conversations about expectations before you got to that point
Chris Gazdik: [00:48:38] directly. One of the goals of therapy. So obviously yes, I do. But. Boy it, when I say that’s hard to do you,
you you’ve, you
I’ve thought about this EFT stuff for a while, but Craig.
It’s kind of hard for me to understand the engulfment side of it. I just don’t operate that way. I’m not that worried about you criticizing me. I don’t like it. I’m not going to tolerate it. I might even run from it a little bit. If I think there’s a, there’s a person that’s going to be mean to me at work and Curtis, I’m not going to work with them on a project.
I mean, I get it, but I’m not that worried about you controlling me. I know I’m going to make my own decisions. I know that I do what I do. Well, I know what I do sucks. Sometimes I’m not totally aware, but I’m just not dialed into those fears. I don’t understand how you can be so warped about it and so freaked out.
I just, I just told you what, you know, what to do cause I’m your boss.
Craig Graves: [00:49:33] So you’re, you’re going back to the understanding that ear of the engulfement / abandonment, not the expectations because
Chris Gazdik: [00:49:41] both because the expectations come from a lot of that.
Craig Graves: [00:49:43] Okay. Well, I think that’s probably easy to define expectations.
Chris Gazdik: [00:49:49] Yes. Sort of.
Craig Graves: [00:49:51] One thing you can have conversations. What do you expect here? I mean, and you can’t cover all your bases, but you can at least get a pretty good idea of, of what the expectations are. What are your expectations? As far as raising kids, did they go to public school? Do they go to private school?
Do they homeschool? You know, what do you, what do you call it? Corporal corporal punishment, whatever spanking do you use bank, if you believe in spanking or not, you know, Those kinds of things like, you know, talking about how you’re going to raise the kids. How do you, how do you manage the money? Do you believe we should have a credit card?
Do you believe we should, should have, of fallback money in the bank? What do you think about investing? Where should invest? You know, those are just, you can have up front to manage expectations and those kinds of situations. And I still think you have to be flexible though. Right? Even if somebody can change
Chris Gazdik: [00:50:36] a lot when I was sitting here thinking, because honestly year to year, when you get married and you’re 20 years old and you’re talking about that credit card, what do you think when the furnace dies?
Craig Graves: [00:50:44] Well, hopefully you got your six months in the bank and you bought a new furnace
Chris Gazdik: [00:50:47] if you’re a Dave Ramsey guy. Sure.
Craig Graves: [00:50:49] Right. Yeah. I know. But you gotta have a plan and that can backfire Mo my ex wife and I talked about what would happen when we had our first child, you know, she would stay home with the child until he was.
Five years old and in kindergarten about a year and a half. And she said, look, I don’t, I’m not happy staying at home. I’d like to, I’d like to go back to work and I’m like, huh, wait a minute. Now you said you want to stay on for five years. Yeah. And that, that causes problems. So for me, looking back on the situation, I should have been more understanding and flexible and said, Hey, yeah, okay, look, let’s figure this thing out.
You go back to work part time, full time, or what have we got to do to make it happen so that you’re happy and the child’s cared for, and, and we, and we go forward. So, you know, you may have conversations and set expectations, but you also have to be aware that expectations could change,
Chris Gazdik: [00:51:38] you know, thank you for your thoughts.
And I think, I think you’re right. I was, I was going towards the flexibility piece when you, when you were talking, but, but more so hearing you with all of that, Craig, I think the point needs to be made there that the more that you’re working on this and having those conversations the better Oh yeah, right.
But again, when people are triggered and they don’t want to really have conversations because it’s usually just an argument. What do you do then? You don’t have expectation clarity because those that’s why therapists will oftentimes focus on communication. And it’s a mistake because if you’re handling the emotions, if you’re handling the underneath fears and beliefs, thoughts, particularly from an EFT perspective, then you’ll have those conversations and then you’re totally right.
You know, cause you can talk about those things. So, so the point is here, big point is the more you talk and connect on those expectations, honestly, the better off you’re going to be.
Craig Graves: [00:52:35] Well, I think it goes back to what you said before. I think what you’re saying is you have to understand these other two things first, then you can have the conversations about expectations and everything else based on that, right?
Yes. That’s where you’re going. Yeah. Okay. So, and you said it before on the show and I agree with you a hundred percent have those figure those things out first. Who’s in what category, how that person’s going to react to certain situations, whatever. And then set expectations to have this conversation
Chris Gazdik: [00:53:00] the best time to do that.
Craig Graves: [00:53:01] When is that
Chris Gazdik: [00:53:02] pre maritally? Oh, absolutely. You know, as much as you can do, you’re never going to be able to, you can
Craig Graves: [00:53:07] say what you don’t want to have kids. Right. Don’t have 10 God.
Chris Gazdik: [00:53:13] Yeah,
Craig Graves: [00:53:13] yeah, yeah. She did too. You know, it’s almost, one of the things we teach in, my, my coaching program has rules, roles, and IDs.
And this is expectations that you’re talking about lines up with the rules kind of in a way, not that like hard line rules, but there’s implicit and explicit rules. And, you know, explicit are rules that we’ve actually talked about. Perhaps even written them down and implicit rules are things in our head that we expect that we haven’t written down, that our spouse may not.
Chris Gazdik: [00:53:49] Right. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it’s just, I don’t think it’s exactly the same thing. You know, I think it’s those, those can both can be good. You know, it’s when the norms implicit, what’d you say implicitly, you, you assume that’s going, but you can positive with that if they’re normal and they’re both, both people are comfortable with it.
Now you might not always even know that when they’re implicit. When they’re implicit in both people, aren’t in agreement. That’s where he got the big catch. Oh yeah. When they’re explicit, there are agreements that you make and those are, those are great. That’s what holds our relationship together.
Craig Graves: [00:54:20] Yeah. And that’s something that’s like, what we’re talking about here is we’re setting expectations.
Chris Gazdik: [00:54:24] It’s I think it’s, I think he’s not parallel. I think it’s the same line.
Craig Graves: [00:54:27] There’s different terminology.
Chris Gazdik: [00:54:28] Different terminology. Absolutely. Right, right. So let’s get to some suggestions of healthy expectations. Let me get your cold, Craig, what do you think are. Healthy versus unhealthy expectations. You got anything there?
I don’t know if I should do that
Craig Graves: [00:54:44] too. It depends on the situation in my mind, you know?
Chris Gazdik: [00:54:48] Yeah. I guess this is just meant to be a little bit of a brainstorm or a thought on like, okay, ms. Guys. Cause I get this question in therapy sometimes, you know, what should we do? Well, I’m not going to give you a direct answer to that because what I think you should do it doesn’t matter.
You know, but, but if you build on maybe these things, you know, what do I got column 12, healthy expectations that are, that are good, you know, but, but, but it’s really like kinda what do you w what do I do you do make agreements on what you’re, you’re wanting to do or have happened, you know, make, make sure that norms that you develop are comfortable for both people.
Yeah. And then most importantly, manage your expectations in the ways that, you know, we’ve talked about it. I guess that’s why I should respond when I get that question next week at an initial marriage counseling therapy appointment, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, some, some suggestions though, gonna have healthy expectations, general idea of, you know, things that things that you might, you know, think about talking about how you make agreements on monogamy.
Should we start there?
Craig Graves: [00:55:56] Yeah, it’s a great place to
Chris Gazdik: [00:55:57] start. Right. When I was, when I was working on this, I was like, well, maybe not. There are couples that have different agreements. I mean, open relationships is a very real thing. All jokes aside a little, there there’s a whole community of people, probably in most large cities that, I mean, like a large community of people.
That operate out of that.
Craig Graves: [00:56:19] Yeah. I’ve heard that before too. I don’t have any personal experience with that, but I have heard that that’s the case
Chris Gazdik: [00:56:26] generally. It’s not good. Yeah. And it doesn’t end well,
Craig Graves: [00:56:30] yeah, I would, I would expect that not to be a good, a good thing.
Chris Gazdik: [00:56:35] why don’t I do, I did ABC and then I moved to ones.
I don’t know what I did there, but, developing goals together as a, is an idea that I was brainstorming a new house, financial. A goal is raising kids. I take that, we’ve talked about that a lot
Craig Graves: [00:56:48] in what we’ve talked about. You gotta have that, you know, develop and goals together. You have to be on the same page in a lot of cases, you know, we keep falling back to the, to the Dave Ramsey example, but.
You know, if one person’s trying to budget and save and the other person’s out spending money, then that’s the, you gotta, you gotta have some common goals. There’s gotta be some common ground.
Chris Gazdik: [00:57:09] Actually. I just remembered what I did. I started AB and C see how I did that. And that was going to really spend some time thinking about what are my suggestions, what are my ideas?
And I started struggling with it because I think of what I just discussed. Right? Like I, no, I don’t want to give direct suggestions. Like I want to give you the process. In a counseling experience that you need to go through to figure out what you really kind of like together.
Craig Graves: [00:57:32] Well, I think you could suggestions on topics of things that you might talk about to set expectations, right.
But maybe not say, yeah, you need to be, to be monogamous and you need to save so much money and you need to do this with the kids, you know,
Chris Gazdik: [00:57:47] obviously, you know, but, but
Craig Graves: [00:57:49] I think that’s fair.
Chris Gazdik: [00:57:51] I don’t want to put up.
Well, let me read down. Cause what I did then, and the thing is I propped this article and I thought, you know, and it’s reasonably quoted. It will be in show notes as well. This is what they came up with. I think it was one of those, one of those catchy phrases, Craig like the 12 reasons of 12 expectations that are healthy.
Craig Graves: [00:58:09] Great. I see a blog,
Chris Gazdik: [00:58:11] gosh, commitment in the mean marriage. Number two verbal affection, number three, compassion and empathy for each other’s feelings.
Craig Graves: [00:58:18] What are you reading? What are
Chris Gazdik: [00:58:19] these are these, these are the articles, the articles, suggestions. For healthy expectations in a marriage, right? Having a commitment in the marriage, having verbal affection, having compassion and empathy for each other’s feelings, having respect for each other consideration for each other’s differences, spending quality time with each other.
Right. Showing interests in each other and what each person is involved with a physical closeness, hugging, holding, hands, touching another simple gestures, generosity, number nine of thoughts, action, acknowledging number 10, that there are other important people in each spouse’s life. I’m our 11 making time and creating opportunity Def on and launched together and laugh together.
And our last one opened communication and sincere listening to each other. Hey, I don’t know. I just read down through those and I’m kinda like, well, he, you know, some of them are no brainers and I think what we’ve run into trouble with, with specific suggestions of, you know, what, Hey, do do this and you’re, and you’ll be well, I’ve given the suggestion.
Not many times. Let’s, let’s create a date night. I mean, who doesn’t do that in a marriage counseling session? It’s on point meet for any number of times, but, but let’s look at which one was this. Okay. Number eight, right? Physical closeness, hugging, holding, hands, touching, and other simple gestures, you know, that are, that are vital to no matter what the couple’s sex life is.
That’s that, that was like their quote in the article. Well, what about somebody? Who’s got sensory defensiveness and their engulfment style of interaction really makes them revolt and they cannot stand to cuddle watching TV. That’s not a good suggestion for that couple.
Craig Graves: [01:00:02] Well, not to do it, but at least to have an understanding that that’s the
Chris Gazdik: [01:00:06] case.
What do you mean?
Craig Graves: [01:00:10] Well, if I’m, if I’m, if my wife doesn’t like to do that, because she’s got this sensory thing, what’d you call it
Chris Gazdik: [01:00:15] sensory defensiveness. It’s where you tactile or taste.
Craig Graves: [01:00:19] I need to understand that and be empathetic and compassionate to her situation.
Chris Gazdik: [01:00:23] Yeah. I mean,
Craig Graves: [01:00:25] if we’re setting expectations, My expectation is I getting to cuddle on the couch with my girl and she’s like, got this sensory issue and she can’t do that.
Then that’d be something to talk about. Right. Instead of saying, don’t touch me.
Chris Gazdik: [01:00:40] Right. My thing, my point, I think my point is is should number eight, be on our list
Craig Graves: [01:00:45] then? I think it should be. I think you had to discuss that.
Chris Gazdik: [01:00:48] Well, there’s lots of things to discuss is what I’m making the point of. And I’m not so sure that we can list out in, in, in really,
Craig Graves: [01:00:55] I think you can list everything either.
Probably. Yeah. But, but I mean,
Chris Gazdik: [01:01:00] it’s a hard thing to come up with specific suggestions for a couple, because everybody is so different and the patterns are so
Craig Graves: [01:01:05] true, but you can take a blueprint and let’s say you left that one off and then I wanted to watch a movie. Hey babe, let’s watch a movie. Okay. Well, why are you sitting over there
instead of you with me?
No, I don’t think so. Yeah. What do you mean? The next thing, you know, it’s. Please sit with me no I need my space, please sit with me, no I need my space
Chris Gazdik: [01:01:26] and round and round. And she goes for years to go. Yeah. It’s, it’s just tough. I mean, I think like their list more with things like, you know, commitment in the marriage. Okay.
That is a, an ability to say I’m committed here, buddy. We’re going to figure it out. Yeah, sweetie. I know we’re going to get, we’re going to get through this. That is a commitment that, that gets expressed. That’s that’s a good, a healthy expectation. I like the ones that are sort of more conceptual and, and, you know, themed.
Okay. Cause number two, verbal affection. Well, you know, there might be somebody who’s really pretty significantly engulfment and they’re not verbal. Why am I, why I’m going to have on a suggestion list as something to create, we had an expectation on, or beat in expertise either way where, you know, verbal affection is the point I’d rather for there to be instead of verbal affection or physical closeness, I’d rather their say it’s important to have, I have an expectation that love and affection it is expressed.
Maybe, you know, so maybe I’m just picking this port and. Kind of thinking in more broad terms, you know, to, to have a, more of like a blueprint, like you’re saying. Yeah.
Craig Graves: [01:02:47] Well, the blueprint idea is the best one.
Chris Gazdik: [01:02:49] Cause I’m not going to give you an expectation for a couple and have a suggestion that says, Hey, Hey, you need to have verbal affection expressed.
That was one of the suggestions, you know, it’d be nice if that’s, if that works, but having affection be expressed while that’s.
Craig Graves: [01:03:07] That’s, it goes back to your love languages, you know, The Five Love Languages, and just, we’ve got to do, do a segment on that at some point. But if I love my partner, my girl, or my girlfriend, wife, fiance, whatever she is at the time.
And she likes verbal affection, but that’s not my thing to give it. The point is, is I give it because that’s how she feels love. Right?
Chris Gazdik: [01:03:28] That’s where a year in a good space. That’s when you’re in a really good space. Absolutely. And you can get there, you can, and you can request it. So don’t get me wrong. I just, I just want to be careful about, you know, running into, into problems and.
And, you know, trouble points, flash points of, of intense pain, you know, when, when you’re not dealing with the real issue and it’s not, it’s not that more surfacey stuff. It’s the, it’s the foundations. It’s the name of the game with our last show? You know, the foundations, of marriage counseling
Craig Graves: [01:04:02] think Chris, I think you’re building on it, man.
You, we talked about the foundation and episode 11 and those other episodes. And then, and then one Oh one where we redid that those are the foundations and these are things that are up on top of that. So if you just pick an, this show up, if you’re just hearing me and Chris for the first time on marriage, go back and listen to those 11, one Oh one and there’s a couple of them Twain somewhere.
Chris Gazdik: [01:04:25] I can check the category out all marriage.
Craig Graves: [01:04:26] Yeah. Yeah. And then listen to this. Yeah. After you’ve defined or figured out the, the other thing.
Chris Gazdik: [01:04:33] And that is an excellent point. I’m so glad you hit that with your voice that way. Cause that’s totally perfectly said. I mean, and, and that is the point and that’s what we get to, you know, don’t get me wrong.
I used to start with communication when I’m doing a marriage counseling. That was my primary. That’s what I was concerned about is what I was really observing and looking at. But if you remember when we did that show, I think, well, yeah, just last, last week, right? I was missing kind of the point I was trying to get to the foundations.
I was trying to get to the patterns. But I wasn’t really getting in there until Gottman hooked it up. And for me and made sense. Yes. The creator of EFT. Yeah. And, and these are built on top of that. So his love language is built on top of that. So as communication built on top of that, and a lot of the things that you will find in marriage books.
All right. That is great stuff. It’s just, it’s built on top of the EFT stuff. Yeah. Yeah. If you don’t have a foundational treatment on that, you’re going to, you’re going to struggle. So yeah. Thank you for that. That was awesome. we need taxi and get on outta here, man. So what’d you think and what you, what you’re hearing you want to sum us up?
You, you, you go to, yeah,
Craig Graves: [01:05:43] I think what I just said, it was pretty good summary, the foundation and then, and then setting expectations, man, and I think it’s awesome. I think that you should. Try to have a conversation and set expectations about everything that could possibly come up inside of your, of your marriage.
So when it does then, you know, at least you’ve had some initial conversations about what that looks like to you, and there’s, there’s kind of an understanding for it.
Chris Gazdik: [01:06:07] I know where we’re going next. You want to know. yeah, we got to talk about sex. Sweet. We’re gonna talk about pornography. Really? Yeah, we are.
Yeah, we are. Cause I was thinking it was a nice transition, you know, w w we’re not about sex I’m like, but, but we’re going to talk about pornography. The question, is it good or is it bad? Right. And, I thought there was some interesting things that I’ve come across their plays off of the marriage thing.
We were getting a little bit away from it and we’ll kind of morph into some more group, group discussions with people probably in a little while. Sound
Craig Graves: [01:06:36] like a plan to me, my friend.
Chris Gazdik: [01:06:37] All right. Hey, you guys are all still struggling out there a little bit. you know, it’s, it’s a tough time in our world.
Stay strong, stay well, stay healthy. Keep just taking one step at a time. And, you know, times are always better after we’re through the tough times. How about that for a long right. We’ll talk to you guys next week. Hang tight till then