After trying to cover this topic in episode 222, but being derailed by the question of “what is addiction”, the panel is talking about the impact of family when dealing with addictions. They start by looking at the topic of recovery and the reality that it is a continual process. As the addict struggles through that place in their life, the fact is that the family members and friends will need to also go through a recovery process as well.
Thing about these three questions as you listen:
- Do you have a clear understanding of what addiction is?
- What does recovery mean to you?
- What do we mean by addiction being a family disease?
Tune in to see Addiction Recovery, Estrangements & Family Dynamics Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson
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Episode #224 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: Hello. This is through Therapist’s Eyes on March the sixth, 2023. Wow. April the sixth, 2023. Three. Three. Thank you for that, Victoria. Am I, am I sounding bad now? I mean, now you gotta just, I think keep going. Just keep going. Just keep, keep rock. Just keep
John-Nelson Pope: going. I think, I think we all need therapy right now.
Chris Gazdik: Indeed. This is April the sixth, 2023. Did I get that right? That time. Okay. Episode, let me see if I get that right. Episode 2 24. This is through a therapist eyes where you get personal insights directly from a panel of therapist in your car or personal time at home. But this is not the delivery of therapy services in any way.
Contact at through a therapist eyes is the way to contact us. I decided that I needed, as you can tell, a little bit of caffeine today. So I got the merch on the YouTube thing. We have these cool cups, man. Go [00:01:00] check them out. John. You got one yet? We’ll get you one. Get me one. I’ll get you one. Thank. No you need to pay for.
Oh, well, yeah. March around here. Okay. Because it does help out the show. We get a little bit of a percentage of the profit we’ve been talking about lapel. Mikes getting our game up to this year. Tell your friends like the subscription on YouTube and Spotify. Leave us some reviews. All that stuff really, really helps in this business and industry.
And you are what makes this show go where we endeavor to figure this thing out together. The human emotional experience. Yes. We have unfinished business. Mr. John Pope is over there to hang out with us. How are
John-Nelson Pope: you? I am doing outstanding. Thank you very
Chris Gazdik: much. Victoria, what do you think I mean by unfinished business?
Miss Pendergrass? It means that,
Victoria Pendergrass: We got a little sidetracked last, last
Chris Gazdik: time. It was so funny to me because I, I listened to the transcriptions and it’s part of what I do to, to, to get the, all of the transcriptions on our [00:02:00] website and people enjoy. And I, I, I brought up the first segment and I’m like, remember?
I’m like, okay, we’re gonna talk about what is addiction, but guys, we, we really need to be brief here. You know, let’s, let’s just be aware, like, you know, we got some things we wanna get to. It ended up being the whole show. Mm-hmm. Yep. I think that’s good though. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, it,
Chris Gazdik: it was a good show. I think. It wasn’t surprising to me at all.
I, I probably, I, I did anticipate that honestly, because you get professionals talking about what is addiction and you can go for hours because it’s just, and take, we took a deep dive on that. And so today we’re gonna be talking about the estrangements that occur in the course of a person’s active addiction.
And so in recovery, how, how do you reestablish these relationships that become estranged? So the same three questions are in place, actually, right? The same three questions that we started out last time being. Do you have a clear understanding of what addiction is? And we’re gonna get a sentence from Victoria to [00:03:00] recover what we said last time.
That’s the way I said you’re gonna love the way we start. Oh, of what addiction is? Yes. A and now Or what does, and what does recovery mean to you? And what do we mean by addiction being a family disease or questions to think about through this episode. So, yeah. Victoria
Victoria Pendergrass: first I’d like to input that I highly recommend you go listen to our previous episode about what is addiction first.
I think that might give you a better understanding episode. Yeah. 2, 2 2.
Chris Gazdik: Episode 2 22. Oh, it is not 2 23 cuz we did a month in review interview. Yeah. So
Victoria Pendergrass: as episode before that I think we’ll give you a better foundation in for
Chris Gazdik: today’s episode. So can you sum it up in a sentence?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Addiction is when you lose the ability of control.
Bang,
Chris Gazdik: spread on it. So many factors go into this guys, and we really do. I experience conversations with clinicians a lot of times. That leads to kind of, that’s why I titled it last time, the [00:04:00] panel battles with what is addiction. Right? It’s a cool title because it really is a little bit of a battle of understanding in our field.
And Victoria nailed it, which I think you started out there anyway, didn’t you? If I remember correctly, that was a key component that you had
Victoria Pendergrass: said. Yeah, I think so. And I think last time I just was kind of confused on the difference between abuse and addiction, like mm-hmm. And that abuse cannot turn into addiction.
Right. And the other two
Chris Gazdik: separate things. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So we’re gonna resist going into that because we did a whole show on it. But John, I, I, I really felt like when we were setting up the topic last time, you and I really connected though on the idea that this particular angle, Isn’t, and hasn’t been, and still isn’t discussed very often in the, the, the massive level of estrangements that get rattled up in, in way of somebody’s career of drinking or [00:05:00] using.
And you, I, I feel like you were agreeing with me mm-hmm. That, and it’s, it sucks that we don’t do a lot of that, right? Oh,
John-Nelson Pope: exactly. And I mean, just think about, and maybe I’m not going where you’re, where you think you’re fine. I might be going on that, but it causes so much disruption in people’s lives and it doesn’t just affect and it a horrific toll that it takes on the person that is abusing or, or dealing with addiction.
It can cause so many disruptions and costly, but it also affects one’s health and family, health and relationships and costs billions and billions of dollars for
Chris Gazdik: people. It’s dramatically impactful. Yeah. I’ll remind you my metaphor for addiction really is, is that addiction is a black hole. I like to say that it, it sucks all emotional and physical resources [00:06:00] from that person’s life and all of those that are, it’s
John-Nelson Pope: a very selfish thing.
I’m not saying, I’m not saying that the person addicts aren’t selfish.
Chris Gazdik: Right.
John-Nelson Pope: But go, go ahead. No, no, I’m, I’m talking about the, the, the disease process itself, which causes all the concomitant disruptions. It’s just like this, like you said, a black hole.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s crazy. So let’s, let’s move to, well, an honorable mention in this.
I, I did want to kind of put out, cuz we, I think I put it out in the month of review, but might not even have got to it there with the dsm, the formal diagnosis state. I just, I’m gonna rail in this for a minute, I think. Mm-hmm. And I know it’s a little controversial, but our diagnostic system for substance use disorder, which is what we call it now.
Mm-hmm. I think Victoria leads to your confusion about the abuse and addiction. We used to have it broken [00:07:00] down into, you have a diagnosis per se, of alcohol, coke, weed, whatever, abuse. Mm-hmm. And then you have a very different diagnosis for what we used to call dependence. Mm-hmm. Or addiction, alcoholism.
And that’s moderate. And you don’t have it now moderate and severe. Right. Yeah. They’ve clumped it all together. And it makes no sense to me. Substance use disorder, mild is basically abuse, and then it progresses into moderate and severe, which is basically addiction. But it, it, it, it, I mean, I love continuums.
Mm-hmm. That’s the way our field looks at things now, continuum for depression, a continuum for Asperger’s, or now we say autism spectrum disorder. As sd. As sd, yeah. You know, as SD, we love our letters. Right? That’s right. I’m, we have a spectrum of all this. We have continuums, but there’s a very big difference between abuse and addiction.
So I really am an advocate for the old school looking at mm-hmm. There’s a different diagnosis for that, and we’ve lost. Well, you
John-Nelson Pope: and [00:08:00] I are in Concord with that.
Chris Gazdik: Does that bother you as much as it doesn’t?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. It, it bothers me. It bothers me because it doesn’t, it doesn’t take in all the, the, the nuances that, that are there and all the different dynamics that go on.
And it’s just, I, I think just lumping them in the men again, just so inadequate. Yeah. It’s inadequate and it adds to the confusion.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Hey, we got YouTube helping you out. I think Neil is, is Victoria’s mic on? So are you saying is is she, is she sounding okay? I don’t know. I need her to talk again.
Victoria Pendergrass: Hi.
Am I, I’m not on. Ah, well I just did a whole bunch of talking and nobody can
John-Nelson Pope: really hear me, so we have to
Chris Gazdik: start it all over again. No, we’re gonna go, this is, that’s the, that’s part of the genuine cool aspect of see, we even did a mic. It was fine early. You must have hit it. We’re gonna blame. Yeah.
He’s blaming you. Yeah. Neil is blaming, Neil’s blaming you is the power of [00:09:00] YouTube. We appreciate that.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, you, the power of your brain waves were so strong that it just, I just knocked
Chris Gazdik: it all. Switched it all. Yeah. So listen, let’s, let’s do a quick little segment that I want to do on, you know, and I know we won’t go as long on this segment, but what is recovery?
And that’s something that people get confused about a little bit too, I find. So we have to understand these concepts of what is addiction, what is recovery? What does that mean to you, and how does this work? I think I’m gonna leave it open-ended for you, John. Okay. What do you see as what is recovery? I’m curious how you’ll pop at that.
Oh.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. I believe that recovery is, if let’s let’s talk about the black hole. Okay? It goes in, everything goes into the black hole. It’s when you absolutely go to where you can go no further into the bottom is when you, at that point, the recovery begins. [00:10:00] When you let it go and you, you acknowledge that one does not have any control.
Actually, the contradiction happens. The paradox happens is when control starts to come back, and that’s the beginning of recovery. And you make a positive change in one’s life. And so it recovery. But you think recovery will happen right away. It doesn’t. It’s a lifetime. See, I’m, I’m a person that believes that recovery one is always in recovery.
Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Yeah. And there’s a concept that is newer out there in that I am recovered. I heard this like big debate at a conference. Mm-hmm. Not too long ago, years ago. Mm-hmm. But recovered was the big phrase. They were like, they’re wanting to incorporate, well, you’re not in recovery, you know, you’re recovered.
And that’s a different reality, which I, I could, I I’m not, I don’t get into, maybe it’s with it [00:11:00] semantic too bad. Well, it’s a different sentiment in that. Yeah. You know, well, you’re, once a addict, always an addict, so you’re never really recovered. Right. You’re al you need to, you know, AA is a cult and you never get well, and I don’t want to subscribe to that.
And there’s, there’s, there’s misconceptions out there. A little bit about that. Well, to me, if,
Victoria Pendergrass: if someone told me, Hey, I’m recovered. Well, then that means that they could, to me, that would say, like, that would give them an excuse saying, oh, I can go out and drink, but I’ll be fine because I’ve already recovered from, that’s the danger, alcoholism or whatever.
And I’m like don’t think that’s how that
Chris Gazdik: works. You hit the recovery to me simplified to the, to the to the maximize. You don’t like the black hole thing, extens? Well, I, no, I’m joking. I’m joking. As a matter of fact, that was beautiful. That was awesome. Because that’s some of the, the, the, the, the, the reality, the experiential reality, which you are so super experie experientially.
No, it, it’s, it means abstinence. That’s, that’s the reality. We, we really kind of see that [00:12:00] recovery from drinking or using. Unfortunately really kind of relates to abstinence because of Victoria, exactly what you said. Yeah. The whole nature of the addiction issue is a loss of control, and we have not found a way to go back to control.
It doesn’t happen for the person. Yeah, and people have tried over and over and over again. It breaks my heart that I’ve seen people try to buy into this, try to believe this, and I’ve seen programs come and go that. That have advocated for a return to controlled use. And when you have addiction, that was the old RAND
John-Nelson Pope: study.
Yeah. You remember that from, okay, go go with that. There was a RAND study about 30 years ago, maybe even longer, and it said that you could do sort of a a measured return to drinking, right? And and they had something going on for two or three years and they did the study and there was a lot of articles in journals.
And [00:13:00] essentially what happened was after two or three years, it always went back to uncontrolled drinking. Yep. And so you and anybody that says that they can control their drinking, When they are dealing with addiction is lying to
Chris Gazdik: lying. Lying to themselves. Yeah. Well, it’s part of the rationalization of their family.
Yeah. It’s part of the minimizations that occur. It’s a part of the, the active process of addiction that you cannot
John-Nelson Pope: not stop. That’s the thing.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, and that’s what I think a lot of people end up saying is, you know, they always, or the famous line is, oh, I can stop anytime I want,
Chris Gazdik: and people will do forced periods of abstinence to prove that to themselves.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s a game. Like it’s just, but it al Yeah. That you get into, and it’s such a hard concept to realize that this inanimate object somehow has control over my behavior. It’s like, doesn’t [00:14:00] compute a lot of times for people. Mm-hmm. And it leads to a lot of relapse. It leads to a lot of longer careers of drinking and, and that type of thing.
Mm-hmm. And again, for the purpose of this show, why we care about that is because we’re talking about. In recovery, recovering. Mm-hmm. The previously estranged relationships. And that is a topic in longer term recovery that isn’t really dealt with
John-Nelson Pope: a lot. Exactly. And, and otherwise, if you don’t have the support of, of family and friends, a good support system, you are going to have more likelihood of, of, of stumbling and having a slip or a full relapse.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s huge, isn’t it? As a matter of fact, Neil, if you could look up what episode we did addiction and Family Dynamics, it plugs into this and you need to have that understanding as well. Well, I mean, it’s
Victoria Pendergrass: just like how and this, someone, correct me if I’m wrong, go because I’m getting this from Grey’s Anatomy and [00:15:00] my very thick, very
Chris Gazdik: little not medical novel that’s like Dr.
Google. Oh. But I mean, I’m pretty Gray’s
Victoria Pendergrass: a cool show though. I’m pretty sure there’s like. Some surgeries and stuff out there that they will not give you unless you can prove that you have a support system to like, help take care of you. Okay. Like when it comes to like transplants and definitely things like that.
Because like, you know, because certain surgeries are gonna require that you have help at home to support you in getting things that you need, like if you’re gonna be immobile. So I think it’s the same kind of similar or the same thing that way. Yeah. With addiction that like, if you, when it comes to recovery, if you don’t have that support system, you’re more likely to fall back into
Chris Gazdik: active addiction.
Yeah. Yeah. But that’s, yeah. No, go ahead. That’s,
John-Nelson Pope: well, no, I, I, I actually had a client that was needing a liver [00:16:00] transplant. And he was, it, it, he had had relapses and he had to be an active psychotherapy for a certain amount of time. Mm-hmm. And he also had to have his, his family and friends lined up and they were not about to, to green light him if he didn’t have all these areas and supports.
Yeah. Lined up and it, participating in it and growing as a
Chris Gazdik: result of it. You know, it’s just, it’s just interesting because I haven’t really thought of that before in the way of, I mean, we’re not talking about it being a requirement of treatment, but, you know, that’s a, that’s a strong how, how about like a strong suggestion if you’re going to engage in, you know, treatment or as a part of your recovery Uhhuh.
Anyway, it’s, it’s a cool thought. I haven’t thought of the correlation between medical, medical care or not. I’m not sure which one. It’s, there’s a bunch in there early, but I’m not sure which one it’s, we’ll have it in the show notes. Yeah, we’ll have that in the show notes. It’s, [00:17:00] it’s, it’s addiction and family dynamics.
I know I did that with Craig early on in the history of this show because we drive, we drive through, you remember John Uhhuh, the characters of the, the, the family dynamics with alcoholism as a family disease. You got the Yeah. 64 episode, 60 family dynamics. Yeah. Episode 64. I knew it was pretty early on.
So all the way back in episode 64, you get a real good list. If you remember John, you got the addict, you got the codependent, and then you’ve got the family hero, right? And you got the family scapegoat and the mascot. And the lost child. Like that was very early on in my days when, oh, we have to do that.
Oh, you wanna do that again? Yeah, it’s, I’d, I’d love to it. Well listen to episode 64. No, I’m just kidding. No, I will, we, we can do that cuz that’s, that’s worth repeating the content cuz I’d love to hear your thoughts about that and, and how that plays through the rest of your career. Cuz I don’t hear many people talking about that.
And here’s the thing, family dynamics with addiction are actually, [00:18:00] oddly Victoria, they’re kind of predictable. Yeah. And there’s not a lot of factors in issues in all of mental health and substance abuse because we’re talking about emotions and feelings and stuff that have that level of predictability to it.
It’s one of the things that’s so cool about Gottman with emotion focused therapy. Mm-hmm. It’s so. Predictable in the way that you find activity and behavior. And this is the same thing with family
John-Nelson Pope: dynamics. It’s kind of a meta meta question. Is in, in your opinion, is it that there’s something innate in US that because we’re kind of designed to be social creatures, that we will end up in similar relationships?
That there will be the hero, there will be the co-dependent, there will be the, the identified patient.
Chris Gazdik: So to Oh, that is so cool.
John-Nelson Pope: And so, in other words, it’s not a, [00:19:00] and so I’m I’m talking about a
Chris Gazdik: philosophical essay. Yeah. Done that down for me for a second. Okay. While I think because All right. Because I think the answer’s yes.
Right?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Well, yeah, that was who was doing that was Hagle was talking about categories. Yeah. And that, that, that language, for example, is a, is a category and everybody that’s human has this ability and will develop something somewhere because it’s innate in us. And so this would be another, or cont rather, I apologize.
But it would be like we’re, we’re wire. To be in a family of some sort. And there was always going to be a relationship where there will be, let’s say, in something dysfunctional, let’s that there will be a hero. There would be the primary person that would be the, the patient or the let’s say the person that’s an alcoholic, and then there would be the hero and the
Chris Gazdik: co-dependent.
Now you’re using these terms that the, the listening audience isn’t gonna understand, but [00:20:00] what, yeah. Behaviorists would love this. Uhhuh. I’m not a pure behaviorist at all. But, you know, the idea here is, is that, and the question I think you’re asking or proposing for us with our opinion is, is it because we, being social creatures, the behaviors that we have in certain situations, particularly as profound as addiction can be become predictable.
Right. Yeah. That’s what you’re saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think absolutely. I wish I could have said it that way, right. Abs I think that’s absolutely. You know, and, and, and it’s the same thing with the engulfment and abandonment. It’s curious that we see in a ft so we’ll get off of that. But, but to, to play off of that and to get into our topic today of like, yeah, right?
Like estrangements that occur uhhuh are also pretty predictable. And it strikes me amazing that we don’t deal with those things in recovery circles quite so much [00:21:00] because can’t we say that as the addict’s career continues to go on, that the, the, the whole social network begins in late stage addiction to break down?
Well, you’ve heard that phrase before, right? But when I was thinking about this with my clients, I’m, I’m putting all these things together thoughtfully and saying, well, what do we mean by breaking down? We mean estranged to relationships.
John-Nelson Pope: Question for you. Your clientele, do you work more, more with the with the person with addiction, or do you work more with the family that has been lives have been changed and disrupted?
Or is it a, a
Chris Gazdik: mix g What do you mean a mix? Well,
John-Nelson Pope: when you see a family, when you see a person, an individual for addiction issues, let’s say alcoholism, do you do you work more with them or do you work with the spouse or the estranged spouse or the, or the child [00:22:00] or, or the generations
Chris Gazdik: that were I will work with who’s presenting, right.
Yeah. And, and, and oftentimes you’ll. Absolute blocks where, you know, I’m working with the addict and the family’s like, Hey, I’m not dealing with this crap anymore. I’m out. I’m not doing this. Or you’ll have a heavily codependent person that is, and, and they can come into the session. But what’s interesting is, in my mind, and this is why I would advocate for clinicians to really have an understanding of substance abuse issues and mental health issues in combination, because I’m working with people all the time, all the time, guys that are just here for depression or they’re here for their life, stress with work.
I mean, it could be anything. I, I, I can have teenagers coming in, you know, because they’re stressed out socially. And I will be working with the whole person. And when I find that there is addiction present in the family, Immediately that clicks off into my head these issues. But I,
John-Nelson Pope: I, maybe [00:23:00] I’m looking for it, but I think most of my clients have some sort of issue have been affected by addiction at one level or another because it’s, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s 10%. Mm-hmm. Well, it’s, it, it is interesting. It, it is kind of that found, I, I think you’re super uber aware of it, Uhhuh, and that probably is why you see that. But I mean, think about it, man, about 10% of our society has addiction issues. That’s about what, what we have. And that’s been pretty stack, you know, pretty, pretty stagnant.
It was number, it was true 50
John-Nelson Pope: years ago when I first
Chris Gazdik: started, right. That that’s a, that’s a pretty solid number that’s remained stagnant. And so, but that’s just, you know, individuals, but how many extended families or families that don’t have an immediate member or have a grandparent and not current, you know, it all kinds of things.
So this affects a lot of people. Mm-hmm. For, for sure. So, Let’s dive in a little bit to what kind of a estraingments develop and, and how that really begins to, to happen. And you just think of really the list of [00:24:00] the, the types of relationships that you have. More, more prominent, dramatic pause, shoot, man. How does addiction affect a marriage?
Or, or you should see John’s face on the YouTube. Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: it’s so many ways. I mean, it’s I mean, it it hurt, it negatively impacts the way people relate to one another. How they the, in a sense, the children are devastated by it. It, it, it helps shape and determine who they will be in partnership with or, or in marriage.
Or who they live with? Trust. Trust just communication. Communication. Obviously honesty,
Chris Gazdik: financial s yeah. Spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. So
Victoria Pendergrass: we’re basically saying it affects every aspect of every aspect
Chris Gazdik: of a marriage, every level. Think of the black hole, Victoria. Yeah. Again, it affects all those emotional and physical resources and those [00:25:00] most close to you.
There is no one closer to you than your spouse. You’re right. Sucked into the black hole with this person. Yeah. It’s so,
John-Nelson Pope: and, and, and I’m thinking in terms of the children and the grandchildren sometimes, because they will find mates that will, they’ll be for whatever reason, will have a, a mate that may have issues with addiction.
More, more
Chris Gazdik: of those than not because of that predictability that we were talking about. Exactly. Right. Yeah. I mean, remember that comment, Victoria, we were talking about last time, I think was new to you, but you were like, oh yeah, I totally get it. Three generations of sobriety to eradicate the emotional effects of one person’s Yeah.
Career using, it’s amazing. And that’s
Victoria Pendergrass: with them actively being sober, being Yeah. And, and being aware of or non, like, you know, of being aware of the impact, but, you know, and then think of how easy it is for [00:26:00] it to like, slip up and start all over again.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I’m thinking of a, of a couple that I, not a couple, I was working with a dude who was in, in, in recovery was cocaine stuff.
And I never got to meter her man, but the, his wife was so amazing. So I will make the plea or make the notice out there. I, I’ve, I’ve long held the belief. That there are reasons for divorce. I, I, I detest divorce. It sucks. It’s a tough thing. It’s so, so invasive in people’s lives. But you know, if your, if your husband or wife is a mass murderer, right, you know, involved in the, the, the mob or ma major criminal activity.
I don’t know. John, how many reasons are there that, you know, even biblically you would think are, are advocations for divorce? Cause you know, harder than split than a, what is the phrase in the Bible? Apple seed or not a seed, a cedar wood or something like that. You know what I’m talking about? Sorta. No, no, you don’t.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m glad to say he looks oddly
Chris Gazdik: confused. That’s right. That’s why I do that sometimes, but I, it, it, there are [00:27:00] viable reasons if someone’s in domestic violence with you, you, you want to, you we advocate for divorce. There’s
John-Nelson Pope: scripturally that you would say that it would be infidelity. Infidelity, right. And it would be abuse.
And it, it was looked at scans in the, in the Old Testament or which would be the, the, the Torah that divorce. But at the same time it was permitted.
Chris Gazdik: But here’s the thing. Addictions like one of those right in that gray area in my mind. Uhhuh, it’s not really talked about or mentioned, I don’t think in, in,
Victoria Pendergrass: so you think addiction would, is called calls for a divorce thing?
Certain cases, maybe not. Right. Okay. Now that’s
Chris Gazdik: what I’m there. Couple. Yeah. There’s this couple that I, that I’m thinking about. I never got to meet. Her, like I said, but man, oh, I see where you’re going. Right. She was, I mean, these guys were married for many years and she was really on point with him, really direct, you know, I don’t support this.
I love you. I meant what I said [00:28:00] when we got married forever. Sickness and in health. And, but you know, one of the things guys that was, that was almost a prerequisite for, that was a strong level of honesty on the part of the addict. Mm-hmm. He was pretty clear he didn’t make any mm-hmm. Nuts and bolts about it.
He was really genuine with, yep, I screwed up. I’m in it. You know what, you know, and, and he would fight back and forth. He had many, many relapses. And, but boy, he’s doing well now. Mm-hmm. And they’ve had a great marriage all the way through his addictive process, so it can be done. You’re hearing this and wondering, can I sustain
John-Nelson Pope: this?
But it’s, it’s pre predicated because she said something very salient and that was,
Chris Gazdik: there are characteristics that we need though. Yeah. To be well, yes. Right. And
John-Nelson Pope: sometimes there, there are spouses or partners that it’s not, it’s for their own health. They could not stay in something.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. Yeah.
Right. I mean, yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, I’m always an advocate [00:29:00] for, or not just me. Hopefully all therapists out there, you know, are advocates for their patient’s mental health and whatever is gonna. Help their mental health. So like, is that, is that what you’re implying? That’s what I’m, is that like, you
John-Nelson Pope: know, you, but let’s just say we have a wonderful, let’s, it’s not a, there’s certainly no perfect world right?
Or anything of that sort, but it would be absolutely wonderful if let’s say the person is an. addict Mm-hmm. And the whole family, in a sense, is having to deal with addiction because in a way, they’re also whether they want to or not, they’re, they’re drawn into that black hole of addiction, right? So, in a way, you could say that they may even be addicted.
They have to be they have to be retrained and relearned and have self-awareness of how they might play into the addiction itself of the, of their loved one. And in a perfect world, in a wonderful world [00:30:00] that people would be participating in, in the recovery, and that the addict doesn’t have to do this alone.
Chris Gazdik: So, I wasn’t ready to transition yet. I’m sorry. No, don’t be sorry. Because it’s a perfect lead in to the biggest highlight of this particular episode. Yeah. So write this down. Make this a quote. Understand this reality. If you’re listening to a show about, Long-term estrangements, long-term recovery and estrangements being recovered, the non-addicted person has got to do their own recovery, right?
Mm-hmm. Yes. Right? Yes. It will not happen very well if the non-addicted person doesn’t, but you
John-Nelson Pope: could see that, that this is where a lot of stress happens is because as the addicted person begins that recovery, yep. Mm-hmm. [00:31:00] If the non-addicted person doesn’t do the recovery, that person will wanna stay in that sphere of the, the, the image or the shadow of the addiction, that that brought him there to the, to that place.
And so that person has to be able to say, I’ve gotta grow. I’ve got to, I’ve got to
Chris Gazdik: recover. There’s gotta be recovery on the non-addicted person’s. Part when you have an estrangement mm-hmm. With a person that has addiction. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I, I, I, I actually did these show notes and I had a conversation today.
Hello out there. She said I could use her, her thought, cuz her thought, when I ask how, how did that go? It was actually not even long ago today. I was posing and moving into a, a thought in her session and the, the, the question was, you know, yeah. Can you know what about recovering the estrangement, you know, in, in the [00:32:00] relationship with so-and-so person?
And she’s like, I don’t know that you can. Mm-hmm. I was like, oh, yeah. And from that we talked a little bit about that because yeah, you really, you can. But that’s where this, this thought came from. And I added it, Neil, that’s what I added to the show notes. It was this, this, and this is the highlight.
Ultimately of what we’re talking about here today, because, you know, she or this, these folks that aren’t the addictive people will have to recover their emotions from the hurt and harm they have with, with their own shame from the hurt and harm they have from their own guilt, from the hurt and harm they have, from the levels of distrust, from the hurt and harm that they’ve had in what they’ve been thrown onto them in so far as projection, what, what they’ve been told they are.
Mm-hmm. From, from the, oh, it’s just, it goes on. This
Victoria Pendergrass: might be totally, totally off topic, so fit it, not totally off topic, but if it, if we don’t wanna talk about it, but I’m interested that like, and see how that relates to like, when the, when the addiction ends in [00:33:00] death. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Due to overdose or whatever the case may be.
Right. Whether it was like they drank their liver to, you know, and they, you know, whatever the case may be, but Just cuz I know that that’s also a big pop.
Chris Gazdik: Well they say addiction ends in jails, institutions or death. And that has seemed to be
Victoria Pendergrass: true in my experience. Well, I’m wondering, and again, we can talk about this another time if you want to, but like how that the per the other individual, the parent, the spouse, the whatever, the sibling, how they’re affected, when that person is no longer there to help them also in like that recovery process.
Because I would assume that that spouse, parent, whoever, still has to in some way. Reco finish recovery themselves, even though there’s the, the death occurred. I, it’s
Chris Gazdik: perfect. Yeah. I think you and I are gonna jump off in the same direction. John, go, go ahead. Go ahead. No, you no. Hit it. You spoke up. No, I agree.
I agree.
John-Nelson Pope: With that, because [00:34:00] the person will end up in a sense, having to deal with burdens of guilt. I didn’t do enough or Right. I’m not, I must be a horrible person. I
Victoria Pendergrass: and so kinda like they get
John-Nelson Pope: stuck. They get stuck and they get stuck at the same level of where their, their partner was that died or whoever.
Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Kids, spouse, kids, whatever. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: GI give you an example. I mean, I, I, I tell stories a lot of times, but I’ve had a a go ahead. Wonderful experience with there was, in one of my first churches up in West Virginia, there was a person, good state. Good state, yes. Wild, wonderful. West Virginia, but. She was, she was someone that was divorced by, from her with her husband.
She had five kids. They had five kids together. He was very prosperous living in another state. And he had kind of introduced her to to alcohol and [00:35:00] drinking cuz he was professional and, you know, that, that’s not necessarily the same. And she was a professional as well, but she was utterly, totally addicted.
She when she died, the, the, they cleaned out her house and they had five just a whole closet full of Everclear. Oh wow. Empty Everclear bottles and all of that five kids were just absolutely devastated. They didn’t know where they were gonna go. Would they go back to their dad because he had, he didn’t have custody of them, though he could well afford it.
He wasn’t taking care of them like he needed to. And on top of that he w were dealing with his mo her mother, and she had died of, of just alcoholism. She had the, the esophageal verese. Mm. And she bled out basically. Right. It’s terrible. And, and did that just but she told me at the grave, a graveside, she said, pastor, [00:36:00] she had liver cancer.
She was in an alcoholic. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, so that mom
Victoria Pendergrass: was definitely stuck.
John-Nelson Pope: She was definitely stuck. That was a long story telling you that, but I was seeing all the impact,
Victoria Pendergrass: proving my point of what I said
Chris Gazdik: it demo. Right. But it demonstrates right. The, the, the one of the concepts or the realities in, in, in insight regarding insight development with addiction.
And that is a denial system. Complete denial on it. Yeah. It is an, which is a confusing word. And the way that I explain that to people over the years I’ve found is that it is an inability, not an unwillingness, it is an inability to see the clear issues that other people see. Like they really don’t see it.
That late stage alcoholic that’s got cirrhosis, liver really believes, doesn’t have the ability to see alcohol caused this. Mm-hmm. So that’s part of what, but that was the mom. But, but, but that the denial system [00:37:00] happens in families. Right.
John-Nelson Pope: And so, in a sense, could you argue. That the, that a family can be alcoholic and that’s the
Chris Gazdik: well defensive of the term alcoholic.
They can be affected by alcoholism. Mm-hmm. Though they don’t have Oh, I agree with you, but I was, yeah. But interesting that you went a different direction. Let me circle back, Victoria to what you’re saying, because I think honestly, I, I was gonna take that in a different direction, so I’ll try that now.
Because the idea that they are going to struggle with get, with recovering their emotional realities if the addict has died, I would maintain actually that anyway, whether the addict’s alive or not, that it’s two separate processes. There is the addicted person in recovery mm-hmm. With treatment, aa, what have you, that you link onto to be well and.
Attain and maintain abstinence. And then there’s the other [00:38:00] side of the person. That’s why we have Alanon Allan, an allateen, an aine, and naranon. These are programs that are designed for that individual, so you really are gonna have to do that. Whether the addict is made it or not, you have a job to do anyway when, so here’s another news flash and a highlight, if you will.
When you are affected by somebody in your life that has addiction issues, you then have to become recovered in the sense of how those, those addiction issues affected you. Mm-hmm. I hope they don’t do a short on that because I did vowels holes and use my vowels. Weird. But, but do you follow, so, so Victoria, they’re getting well anyway, they have a job and a task and it’s their own exclusive, unique process to go through.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. But what I’m saying is I think that some people don’t realize that a lot. Yeah. And so then when the death happens, they miss it. Yeah. Or they get [00:39:00] sucked. They, that just throws them all off course and then they don’t know what to do with themselves. And then they get like sucked into this.
Chris Gazdik: It’s been trauma.
Yeah. And they don’t know they’ve been traumatized, which is what you were talking about, John. Mm-hmm. Right, right. How many times do we have trauma, sexual trauma, physical trauma, whatever. And the person hasn’t even categorized that or realized that, holy crap, I had trauma. Trauma in my life. Yeah. Yeah. Can, can we say that if you have an addicted person so closely in your life that you’re probably gonna have trauma Probably.
Probably a fair statement. Yes. Math. Yeah. It’s a traumatic reality. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, well let’s go into a little bit of the, the, so, so what do we do? These estrangements are gonna happen. I didn’t finish it, but I will now, like children with their parents and then even friends and colleagues. You know, there’s, there’s all kinds of different estrangements that, that occur in fractured relationships as the active addiction goes on.
Even neighbors, for instance. I mean, I, you know, you, you, I have a client. [00:40:00] Has a neighbor who they’re concerned has alcoholism. Mm-hmm. They’re like on guard. They had a friendship, and that friendship is broken. It’s is esstranged. So this affects a lot of relationships. Mm-hmm. Obviously, the closer the relationships, the more profound impacts.
But what do we do guys? So the, so you’ve gotten well mm-hmm. You know, you, you’ve kind of recovered, you’re sober, you know, that addiction’s an issue and Wow. So now I’m looking around at my life, it’s been year two or three of recovery. Like, how do I recover these relationships? What do I do? Right?
That’s the component that not a lot of people talk about. Let’s talk about it. Right. So one of the things that’s an easy starter in my. Victoria, you know, anything about the 12 steps or much about AA and whatnot? Yeah, I
Victoria Pendergrass: mean, we, in part of my addictions class in undergrad, yay, or not undergrad, in grad school is, we had to go to an AA or an NA meeting, celebrating right now.
And and I was lucky we went on like [00:41:00] hotdog day and they like me and my roommate. And you went to an open meeting though? Yeah, we went to a, yes, an open meeting. I mean, cuz yes, there are, there’s closed meetings
Chris Gazdik: and open meetings. Yeah. We’re gonna leave that a mystery for now. Just, yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: but I mean, self, self-explanatory I feel like, but I mean, I know I, I can’t recall every step, but I know like basic steps, like making amends Things
Chris Gazdik: like that.
And you gotta work
John-Nelson Pope: the steps. And that’s that, that says a little bit of expenditure of effort. Mm-hmm. To do that. And the idea is that you can’t jump steps. You can’t you, you can’t you need to follow them. Right. Follow them. And you can’t in order say you’ve actually done this, when in fact you have,
Victoria Pendergrass: So remaining honest and truthful about your
Chris Gazdik: Exactly.
Yeah. So you hear us alluding to the step work. Listen, I have found an I will make a statement again if said it on a show, AA is what works best for most though. It’s not [00:42:00] the only thing, the only route to gain recovery and whatnot. You’ve got the uh, it’s sitting right up there, don’t you? The blue book. The big book.
Big
John-Nelson Pope: book, yeah. That’s there.
Chris Gazdik: Right? And which, wait, what? It’s the big book of
John-Nelson Pope: AA is it’s the big
Chris Gazdik: book. Yeah. It’s, it’s says alcoholic Synonymous. I see it. Okay. And, It’s got some
Victoria Pendergrass: age on it. I was gonna say that looks. Aged.
Chris Gazdik: It’s got some age on it for a reason. I, I’ve had it for, for quite a little while.
It, it is what works best for most. And when you engage what is called 12 steps, it’s a process that you go through and then you redo and redo as you need to throughout life. But it really does magically manage a lot of these aspects. It has slogans,
John-Nelson Pope: but I mean, like, it works if you work it or turn it over.
I love models know. That’s those, those mottos are shortcuts that actually help you say, okay, well I might be tempted. I might be in [00:43:00] a sense helps the
Chris Gazdik: cognitive functioning of the recovery and turns, and turns the switch on. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I love all the slogans that we’ve, I, you know, easy does it one day at a time.
It works if you work it. I mean, there’s so many of them. That are so cool. And, but the thing is, is the, the point that I’m trying to make here is that in that recovery work, it does deal with estrangements, step eight, if you will Victoria, if, if, mm-hmm. Correct is, is making a list of all the people that I’ve kind of harmed or hurt.
And then nine, we actually make amends to those people mm-hmm. In times when it doesn’t cause harm to those people. Real quick story that a person told me early in my career where they were doing this part of the process of recovery and the, and part of what they deemed was important was they lived in a, an apartment complex and the loud parties that they had, sorry, I’ve got allergies.
Ugh. That’s what, non-clear voice. Anyway, the parties, they had loud noises [00:44:00] at night and all this kind of stuff, and they thought, well, I, I’ve really offended all these people. I’ve harmed all these people. I wanna go make amends. So I went knocking on the door. One after the other, one after the other. And he’s like, Hey, you know, I’m so-and-so.
I live down there on the second floor, apartment 2 35, and I, I’m just going around to tell people, like, listen, I, I, I, I want to make amends. I wanna apologize. I, I think I was, I was difficult late at night and cause problems and, and I’m, I’m, I’m in recovery now. I have a problem with alcohol. And that’s, that’s part of what was going on with that.
And I, I’m just taking responsibility for this man. And, you know, door after door, he would say this spiel that he developed and door after door, you know, he’s like, oh, well that’s cool man. No, I, I appreciate that. Good for you. I’m really happy for you. That’s, that’s awesome, man. I, I love to hear that. And it’ll be cool not to have these crazy sounds at night, too.
I wondered what was going on, you know, or, or whatever. Their interaction after interaction. Well, finally he came to a door, knocked on the door, gave his spiel, and the guy looked at him. He’s. [00:45:00] You know what? You are an asshole then you’re an asshole. Now I don’t give a rip about what you’re doing in this recovery crap that you’re talking about.
Don’t ever talk to me again. Boom. Right? And he’s like, well that’s, what do I do with that? Huh? You know? Huh? How do I handle this now? This is an estrangement, if you will. Yeah. That is not recovering in the long-term recovery process. And that’s okay.
John-Nelson Pope: You let it go. Right. I re Because you have done what you’re
Victoria Pendergrass: supposed to do.
Right. I was gonna say the same thing. I recently No right on it, that I recently heard that. You know it. You know, we also talk about control and what we do have control over. But the step is for what you have to do. Right. You the step is not saying that the person has to follow the amends or again, be in agreement with them, but as long as you do your part in at least.
Reaching out and trying to ma and making the amends on your side.
Chris Gazdik: Well, what’s [00:46:00] funny is, and I just connected these two thoughts honestly, in real time, I haven’t thought about this follow right. I follow everything you just say, but remember the highlight of our show a little bit ago. Does this not apply there?
If there is an estrangement with somebody that is addiction in your life and in recovery, you’re going to recover that estrangement. The non-addicted person has got to do their part. Part two. Yeah. They’ve got to be in recovery of the harmful effects that they’ve experienced. Arguably, we could say that particular neighbor.
Didn’t. That’s okay too. That’s okay. I
John-Nelson Pope: had a colleague who just came out of the blue and I, he is, we’re talking about this. I think he was doing a recovery act with me. And he Did you
Chris Gazdik: realize that, or you realizing that Now? I’m realizing that now.
John-Nelson Pope: Really? Oh, wow. This happened 15 years ago. And he said, I got really angry with you about something and I’d let everybody know how angry I was at [00:47:00] you.
I, I had this is
Chris Gazdik: him saying to you, him say,
John-Nelson Pope: Emailing me, okay. On this, because we’re out in different states now. And he said, I was a jerk. I was I was an a hat and will you forgive me? And I said, of course. And, but, but you know what, what he did to me 15 years ago really hurt my feelings.
Yeah. And stuck with you. And I stuck with me. I had to let go of
Chris Gazdik: my hurt. Mm-hmm. And you’re realizing now Yeah. In hindsight, as we’re having this conversation, that that may have been what he was doing, he was doing, and he was going through the steps. Going through steps.
John-Nelson Pope: Here you are. Steps. Yeah. And now it makes sense because of Wow.
His behavior, which was very brilliant man. Very erratic behavior. And
Victoria Pendergrass: but then you had to do your part by letting go and recovering on your own. Yeah. From, yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And let go of that. Yeah, that hurt. So thank you. Thank you. Good
Chris Gazdik: Doctor, if he’s listening right? Yeah. [00:48:00] If he’s listening out there and, you know, and he, he was a professor.
Well, it, so that was I didn’t plan this, but it, it occurs to me as well in this process of recovering from the estrangement in a relationship, there’s a long-term perspective that really needs to be had here. Whether it’s a long-term perspective with marriage. Whether it’s a long-term perspective with a collegial relationship, such as, thank you for sharing John.
Mm-hmm. Or if it’s a long-term perspective in a living circumstances. You know, if you’re in recovery and you’re figuring your stuff out and growing, there’s a long-term perspective that you need to have with other people that are catching up with your vibe. This is years later, you just caught up with his vibe.
Yeah, exactly. And that’s a, that. It’s worth it because when you get those estrangements, and I hope you have a chance to talk to him again someday, you know, [00:49:00] because when you recover those estrangements and in recovery, relationships reattach and you reengage and you reget that that rekindle ment that can occur.
If that’s a word, rekindle, it’s wonderful, isn’t it? Mm-hmm. And it’s, it’s just amazing and it’s an amazing part of recovery here. Towards the end, I’m gonna give you a story of a guy that we were working with that was on our show, that shared that in active real time. I’m gonna leave that as a, as a teaser.
Let’s go on a little bit With trust and directly dealing with trust in these relationships is going to be a huge component. Now we do that anyway with recovery and good healthy therapy work and whatnot, but it’s such a huge factor that you’re going to need to kind of realize, you know, it’s gonna take a little bit of time for others to trust you.
Okay. I do this in therapy all the time, so I can’t do it. This is a audio or YouTube. I guess I could pull my whiteboard out. Wouldn’t that be fun? It’s [00:50:00] over there, huh? Don’t do it. Oh, yeah. You know, don’t do it Neil. Don’t grab it. Talk, talk. Yeah, there, I love that. That is an old school movie in addictions field.
If you imagine this whiteboard that I have here in a square, and I’ll draw a line. Solid means actively using dotted means recovery. Actually, I usually do it. I do it the opposite. Dotted means that it’s active use and solid means. Wow. You’re solidly in recovery and you’re sober. So an addict’s life is kind of like, you know, Dotted.
Dotted, okay. A little solid spot. Dotted, dotted, solid dotted, dotted solid. And through the progression of your disease and your, your addiction, family members, parents, if you will, are looking at the kid. Hey, yeah. You’re using, oh yeah, sure. You’re sober. Oh wait, you’ll get sober again. Oh, you did. You didn’t.
You are, you aren’t. God, it’s such a dramatic process over the years. Right? But what happens is in this line, dotted solid, dotted solid, there’s a horizontal line [00:51:00] that that is clear in your mind that you are sober. You get it, you’re really real this time cuz it’s in you and you know what you’re doing and it’s gonna be a solid line there out.
But if you look from this solid line that goes horizon, The other person has watched the dotted solid. Dotted solid line. Right? And they have no idea what’s to come after this horizontal line. Clear in your mind. You’re sober. They’ve seen this solid line before. They don’t know whether it’s gonna be dotted or solid until it’s solid for a really long time.
It’s gonna feel like to the addict. Let me say that again. They don’t know when you are really sober. They don’t know when they can trust that sobriety. So to you out there, the addict listening to this, who wants very much to reestablish these relationships and recover from these estrangements, it is going to be much longer mm-hmm.
Than you anticipate other. [00:52:00] Trusting, buying in, seeing, and feeling and experiencing. You are now
John-Nelson Pope: sober. There’s a, a spiritual resiliency that I think that the alcoholic or the a addicted person needs to do. And that is just that you’re going to be in it to, to win it, to, to stay, stay with us even when you’ve, you feel rejected over and over again, and you will, and you will, you will.
But there will be a point where, where there’ll be a congruency with the people that you love and that tho those people will, will stand with you and they will begin to trust. And it may not be perfect. It won’t be perfect, but there will be an increase.
Chris Gazdik: But John, you don’t understand. I’ve been trying to deal with this.
I’m an addict. I’m in recovery now, and my kids are just, they won’t talk to me. They haven’t talked to me for years. Man. I don’t know what you’re, hear that story, you know? Yeah. What do you say to that guy?
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, gosh. [00:53:00] It, it, you, I think one of the things is that they, that they realize that that person realizes that they’re not alone in this, that other people have been on this journey.
And that’s why it’s important to have a fellowship, right. Is to be able to, to sense that you can, you may not be feeling strong at one point, but there’ll be other people that can gather with you and ho help
Chris Gazdik: hold you up. Thus, the term that I love, spiritual, resilience, resiliency, and we don’t mean anything religious by spiritual.
This is a human connection with other human beings, which together we can do what we cannot do alone. And Yes, ma’am. Yes sir. The addicted person. Your kids can come around, it may take years. Okay, that’s fine. But the long term resiliency and spiritual resiliency that you talk about. I’ve seen it happen over and over again.
That’s why I know this. That’s Hope case. That’s hope. Totally hope. [00:54:00] Yeah, totally hope so. Another big factor is this level of honesty. I mentioned that earlier. You know, I, I really happen to feel like in the spirit of active addiction, when an addict is able to remain honest, even in their using days that they’re using, that is a huge pre-mark.
It makes the prognosis of relationships way better if you do have a level of honesty about that. And there are people that do that. They’re like, look, I’m a drunk. I’m drinking. I’m sorry. I don’t know what to tell you. Well, that’s great because I know what to expect. I know what’s going on. You’re being, you’re honest, right?
You’re being honest. Billy Joel, honesty. Yeah, go ahead. Sing it. Break out.
John-Nelson Pope: Honesty means so much to me anyway,
Chris Gazdik: just coming out of rehab. A person goes and gets sober and then they come out of rehab. When folks in the family have been a part of that treatment, it [00:55:00] facilitates. And we now know this in the field, the recovery of those relationships.
It breaks down the hesitancy, the fear that supports this estrangement. Right. Co co-dependence. So how can we not mention dealing with Estrangements if we don’t mention co-dependence? Victoria, what do you got on that? Do you, do you deal with co-dependency a whole lot? Cuz that’s a substance abuse field concept.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Pendergrass: No, I mean obviously some, but No, not a ton.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. An area of growth. Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: probably.
Chris Gazdik: How do you, do you have a quick way of laying out codependency? Because I have like a three sentence thing. No, you’ll do
John-Nelson Pope: better than I am. But I, I, I, it’s one of those things that, you know it, when you see it you hear it.
Yeah. And the co-dependency is the sense that it’s one, one sign of co-dependency is that [00:56:00] you have a, an ultimatum and say, I’m not gonna put up with this anymore. And the person comes back, or because they get as much out of the. In a sense this, this dynamic, this dysfunction, there’s the, the co-dependent as in terms of, let’s say the addict does.
Chris Gazdik: So, yeah. My three line thing to understand co-dependency that cuts to the chase is a co-dependent person tends to be what the other person is. So if the other person is well, then I am, well, if the other person isn’t well, then I am not well. So my goal, effort, behavior is directed at making you well. So that ultimately I will be well that in a nutshells codependency.
Mm-hmm. Right? And, and that needs to be dealt with, right? Mm-hmm. If you’re gonna deal with an estrangement mm-hmm. Because codependence, just as much as addiction, will block and destroy effective. Well, and here’s, [00:57:00] here’s
John-Nelson Pope: the other thing, and there’s a lot of relationships where the person says, well, I’m gonna leave you and.
The person finally has that awakening and comes to her senses, or his senses gets, starts recovery and begins an authentic recovery. And there is almost gets back in, integrated back into the household. And there seems to be a sabotaging of, of that from the person that had been wronged so badly or had lived in that, that dysfunction Right.
But was not addicted.
Chris Gazdik: Right. Absolutely. You know yeah. Cass says on, on YouTube live there. Yes. So important. I don’t know what that specifically you’re referring to, Kas, but listen, this whole thing is important. Uhhuh, I can’t tell you how much my therapy experience revolves around the estrangements that people experience in [00:58:00] their families with their parents.
Or with their children or with their friendships that are all blown up, or the friendship that they lost cuz their friend fell off into some world that we now know as being addiction. Man, the, the, the carnage shows up all the time with people that present to me in a therapy experience. Mm-hmm. For anxiety.
Mm-hmm. Or for wanting peace in their mind, or, or, or for, as I said, all sorts of random therapy presenting topics that has a lot to do with these terrors and traumas that occurred with addiction. Mm-hmm. It just happens all the time, John, in my mind. Mm-hmm. I just see it, I see it all the time. Even with totally non addiction seeming issues.
We deal with this in therapy a lot. Oh, I agree with you on that. Yeah. And if you don’t have substance abuse training and awareness, you will miss. You will miss it, and you will miss the direct [00:59:00] opportunity to do a lot of healing in these people’s lives. Closing thoughts? And I want to tell you as an example of, you know, what happened mm-hmm.
In one of our show participants. Closing thoughts, comments. Victoria, how are we doing in your mind? I, I know you’re quiet over there. Probably soaking everything up. I know you are. Yeah. I’m just listening. I see your wheels turning. I really do.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. And rolling. Rolling. And you usually when we, when I’m quiet, it’s cuz I’m thinking of my own patients and clients and how this interaction relates to people that I already work with.
But yeah, I mean, I don’t know.
Chris Gazdik: Gotcha. I wanna say closing thoughts, John. I’m soaking it all in. No,
John-Nelson Pope: I, I think that in a hopeless situ, what seems to be hopeless is ultimately not hopeless, is that there’s always a, a, a, an opportunity for recovery. And even if they’re in Estrangements, and it may take a lifetime for it to, to be recovered the [01:00:00] relationships, but it is something that can happen and will happen.
Mm-hmm. And
Chris Gazdik: and have faith. It can actually happen quickly. Right, right. Really like quickly. Yeah. It can happen. It’s amazing. Yeah. Because when the light bulbs come on, I loved Steven Tyler. And Aerosmith’s song, amazing. I don’t know if you ever listened to it, Uhhuh. It is amazing. And he’s totally talking about his recovery.
I used to play it over and over and over again in the DUI class right early for my career when I was learning about addiction. And, and in that line there’s a lyric that goes something like, you know, and when the lights come on, it just, it’s amazing. Like it’s all different. And so this can happen quickly and
John-Nelson Pope: it, you can reinterpret everything that happens as a result of that line.
It’s wide open. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: it’s wide it open. Listen, we were doing a show, I don’t know what episode it was. It was like episode five or seven. Honestly, it was very early on. And we had this guy named Jim Abbly. On. And Jim, [01:01:00] I hope you’re listening to the show, buddy. I need to look you up and see how you’re doing, man.
Because he came on our show. Forget how I met him. Oh, he sold me a roof. That’s what it was. See, he was doing roofing, right? And I just talking to people, I always got my, my, my scanners on and I’m, I’m, I identify things. And he, he brought it up. He started talking about his recovery, that he was in recovery.
He’s like, Hey man, you should, you should come on a show, man. That’d be, that’d be really cool. You know, we could talk about what your experience is, what addiction is, you know, that type of thing. He’s like, oh man, I’d love to do that. He’s like, that’d be awesome. And so we went in and we talked about his life and his progression and you know, as the show is, we’re pretty genuine.
It’s not so scripted. And he was talking about how his, his weed addiction was so strong. I mean, weed was his drug of choice and a lot of alcohol too. You know, he was living in a garage and, you know, life got pretty rough for him. You know, he lost his wife and, and, and kids and. You know, now he’s, he’s in, in recovery and and we talked about what that was like for him and what he was doing.
And he didn’t tell me he was doing this, but he’s like, yeah, Chris, you know, it’s [01:02:00] just, it’s amazing what happens, you know, in your life when you begin to get off of Active Lee using your substance. And he said, honestly, man, I, I, I’m, I’ve, I’ve got a job promotion. I just got. So, yeah. Chris, I’m gonna be leaving town.
I’m, I’m, I took care of your roof, but we’re going to go to Nashville. And I, I, I’ve been promoted. My company wants me to go up there because he’s been, he was like five years sober at the time, and he’s like, it’s, it’s crazy, Chris, because I, I’ve reestablished very recently in the last few months with my wife.
She’s talking to me and, and we’re talking about, you know, dating again and, and, and, and being married maybe in the future, who knows? But, you know, and, and my kids are talking to me and I’m getting ready to pick up my, my five year chip here in here in a month or so. And that’s literally the way that we ended the
John-Nelson Pope: show.
Yeah. Now, five years seems like a long time. Does, but in one’s lifetime, that’s
Chris Gazdik: a blink. And he was a mess. Yeah. He’d tell you. [01:03:00] And, but in recovery, your opposite than a mess. People that are in recovery are the most humble, hardworking, awesome people that you’ll ever meet because they’ve been to hell and back and they know what it’s like to live a living.
Hell. Go ahead. Take
John-Nelson Pope: and, no, no, I think you’ve, you’ve said it exquisitely.
Chris Gazdik: It’s amazing. Yeah. So listen out there. I hope you’re hearing it listening. Recovery is awesome. It’s a confusing world, but you do recover these relationships and hopefully we’ve given you some thoughts and some ideas about dealing with these estrangements and such.
So take care, be well, and we will see you next week. Bye all. Bye. Thank you very much.