This show starts by asking the question “Are we in control of our own experience with attraction?”
We talk about the physical nature of attraction and how there are three different stages of romantic love: Lust, Attraction, and Attachment. During those phases our bodies will release specific hormones during each stage of a relationship. When then move on to the psychological aspect on how we handle attraction. Do we let those hormones take over? Do we continue the attraction to the other person even after the hormones have stopped being produced?
Tune in to see if We Do Control Attraction Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What causes us to feel attracted to others
- Are there emotional factors with this
- How can we manage the experience of attraction to avoid problems it can otherwise create
Links referenced during the show:
Emotional Detachment: Definition, Symptoms, Causes, Treatments (verywellmind.com)
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #230 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello. This is Through a Therapist’s Eyes. We have an action packed show, I think this week cuz we are going to be talking about do we control it? It referring to attraction. Do we control our experience of attraction? Which I think is a fascinating topic. I cannot believe we haven’t covered much of this yet, actually in the show.
We’re 230 episodes in this is May the 25th and we still barely ever redo topics. Have y’all noticed that? Like yeah. Yes.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. It, I mean therapy is a broad mental health. Mental health is a broad thing. Mental, yeah. I mean, hey,
Chris Gazdik: So we got Ms. Victoria Pendergrass, who’s dealt with her childcare duty. She is back in the saddle.
It’s good to be back. Welcome back. Yes. Mr. Pope is hanging out with us. [00:01:00] You gonna say anything or peace out? You know, this is the, so, oh no, that’s says goodbye. Peace out. He’s, he’s doing the Aerosmith tour. Yes. All right, listen, the questions. What causes us to feel attracted to others that we’re going to be thinking about during the show?
Are there emotional. Factors with this really? And how can we manage the experience of attraction? And that’s really a bit of a key. How do we, how can we manage the experience of attraction to avoid the problems that otherwise can be created? Right? So through a therapist eyes, contact at through a therapist eyes is the way to, to, to catch us to emails, to interact with us.
We do the YouTube lives about six 15 every Thursday. That’s an awesome way to interact with us live. We can help make us straight when we stray aside. The book is still out, the marriage book is coming. Getting excited about finishing that up. What else to say? Five stars. Apple reviews. They’re really important to help us grow the show.
We’ve got to buy me a cup of coffee. That’s up. We really, really
John-Nelson Pope: [00:02:00] know. And what happened to the four stars? Now we’re five stars. Well,
Chris Gazdik: that’s what, that’s good. That’s what I, we’ve increased.
John-Nelson Pope: I think we need to, to dream the. The dream.
Chris Gazdik: Can we become six stars? I think we can. I, I, you know what, let’s, let’s start a trend.
Put a six, a five star, and then in the review say this should be six stars. Excellent. I like it. You bet. The human emotional experience that we endeavor to figure out together. That is, that is what we do. Look, I, I, we need to jump in.
Victoria Pendergrass: We also do not provide any therapeutic service services, again,
Chris Gazdik: of any kind in the content of this show.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yes. In, in our careers. Yes. We provide therapy services in our day job. The context of this show, this is, this is not to provide any, let’s, let’s be any therapeutic services. During this next
Chris Gazdik: hour of any kind. So we have a, we really, we’ve got a lot to get to. So I wanna, I wanna jump in. I’m, I really felt like this might [00:03:00] be like one of the ones that we did with, with addiction, where we just get bogged into a conversation.
I guess if that happens, we can, you know, kind of go with it and, and, and break this up. But I want to try to get this in and, we’ll, we’ll have to re recover it, but to, to try to get into this. Let’s, let’s think about what we’re talking about when we talk about attraction, right? It’s a, it’s a, it’s an interesting facet that I don’t think really is understood very well.
You know why I don’t think it’s understood very well. You don’t have to ask. I’ll tell you because, because I think a lot of this has to do with hormones really. Yes. Right? Yes. Right. And how much do we really understand about the structures of hormones and how they operate and how they, how they interact and how they get created, why they get created.
And what the interesting intricate interactions [00:04:00] between the environment on our system is like, do we understand that much? Probably
Victoria Pendergrass: not like we sh need to. Right. Or like, would be helpful.
Chris Gazdik: So this is a fascinating area of, of mental health, all told, which has a lot to do with neurology, which I think is the next great bastion of mental health
John-Nelson Pope: hormones and pheromones
Chris Gazdik: fair.
And that’s different than hormones, isn’t it? They, they had very,
John-Nelson Pope: it is different, but I’ll, I’ll give an example a
Chris Gazdik: little bit later. Fantastic. Right. Okay. Okay. So basic definitions here. You know, you, you, you Google it and whatever. You get Miriam Webster involved and you find that attraction is the action or power of evoking interest.
Pleasure or liking for someone or something. And the interesting thing there is the action in my mind. You know, we think of attraction as just something that happens, something that we have no control over. And I’m going to say that right off the get-go. Make the bold statement that we [00:05:00] absolutely have influence over this, but we do not realize it.
And oftentimes we don’t know how. And it’s, it’s, it’s fascinating stuff. But listen to that definition again, the action or power of evoking interest, pleasure, or a liking for someone or something. The action or power of doing that. It’s, it’s a different way to think of this. Miriam says the act process or power of attracting personal charm, something that attracts or is intended to attract people by appealing to their desires or tastes.
I definitely did not go to chat g p t for this
John-Nelson Pope: one. Well, and I’m wondering if, is that part of that, because that’s saying more in terms of personal charm or the way one presents oneself. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Go further. What do you mean
John-Nelson Pope: as opposed to the hormones?
Chris Gazdik: Well, I. You know, as we get into this and [00:06:00] thinking about what attraction even is, right?
Mm-hmm. Like, isn’t there probable even with other things like that mm-hmm. In interaction, like, how do we know we are interested or charmed by something or someone, you know, we, we feel it, right? There’s something does it to you. When I was a little kid, I was attracted butterflies. I’m stealing, I’m stuck
John-Nelson Pope: on a
Chris Gazdik: feeling, right?
Yeah. You, you experience it. Start to say like, you know, I love the, the diagram of the helmet when I was a kid, blue, red and, and, and white star on a black helmet with a gold strip in the middle of it. It, it appealed to me. Well, how did I know that? It’s, it’s a really interesting psychological question and my dad, by the way, was a Browns fan, so it wasn’t cultural.
Could tell you that ne knee in the background, like that comment, right? Right. So, So let’s get in the weeds up for just a little bit about the science, because I think what you were going [00:07:00] after John, is you know, is that sexual attraction is that Yeah. Have to do with hormones and pheromones and the idea of attraction and I in relationship.
John-Nelson Pope: Right. And, and I think you were also talking about, you were talking about the, the helmet and football players and, and having that sort of attraction in terms of of, of being a team for sports. Like your interest Yeah. Your interest and strong interest. Or let’s say you, there’s a charismatic person that’s sure.
Is a preacher or Taylor Swift. Sure. For example.
Victoria Pendergrass: Or even fr I mean, friendships. I mean, there’s things, hundred percent. You know. So I mean, I think, cuz I, I think a lot of times when you say attraction, people immediately go to sex or Yeah. Like physical, romantic attraction. But I mean, yeah, there’s all different categories, different
Chris Gazdik: aspects, and I would maintain, not honestly, that our interest level has a lot to do with a lot of what we’re gonna [00:08:00] talk about in the biology of it.
Mm-hmm. And that we don’t really understand the ins and outs of how all those things develop. And the interesting interplay between what I call the tale of two tapes, the overview of mental health, right? Mm-hmm. Biological realities on one side, social and emotion on the other. And they dynamically interact with each other and, and, and combine to what we experience.
So let, let, let’s get into the weeds a little bit real quick in this, and, and I’m, I’m gonna try to move fast because like I said, there’s, there’s so much to get to with this particular topic. The science of what we’re talking about here, right? So, So I’ve got a lot on the show notes, by the way, this time as I was prepping all this,
because I really took a bit of a deep dive and, and have great links for you to really take deeper dives.
I’m sure you’re gonna be listening to our conversation and where does this come from? What is, we know, what is, what is really proven about this. There’s a lot of really good links in the show notes of this time on this one. Guys saying, this is one [00:09:00] of ’em that come from an article. Love, actually The Science Behind Lust, attraction and Companionship science in the News.
And this was from Harvard Education. Now, this was 2017 when this article that I, I saw and they’ve got some cool things that I think the best way to go about this is, let me just run through it and y’all let your minds move around with it and then tell me what you’re, what you’re thinking. So, gotcha.
The, the summaries of the articles. Romantic love can be broken down into three categories, right? Lust, attraction, and attachment. Thought that was fascinating. According to this team of scientists led by Helen Fisher at Rutgers Love can be broken down into those categories and are characterized by their own sets of hormones from the brain.
So lust, first of all, they identify testosterone and estrogen. Everyone knows those chemicals pretty well. We all talk about them. Males have, you know, testosterone fully, [00:10:00] but women well, but women do too. Yes, they do, but we also have estrogen. The day I found out I had estrogen in me was a weird day.
What do you mean? I’m telling you, man. But when he identified lust, it, it, it seems to go around testosterone and estrogen, which comes from the testes and the ovaries, right? The sex hormones. And then, so
John-Nelson Pope: that’s almost like a rut kind
Chris Gazdik: of action. What was that a joke? Or what do you animal? An animal running a, yeah.
I, I, you lost me. I’m sorry
John-Nelson Pope: I didn’t. No, no, that’s, that’s, in other words, it’s a drive. It’s a very strong
Chris Gazdik: drive. Okay. A sex drive. Okay. Sex drive. Yeah. Attraction operates with dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin. And that comes from the hypothalamus. Not to be confused, those really are more neurotransmitters.
Mm-hmm. And you may have heard of those, and we talk about those a lot in mental health. Attachment. Interesting. Operates with oxytocin, [00:11:00] which is a hormone and vasopressin, which they come from the hypothalamus. So, so it’s a limbic system. It’s the limbic system. It’s also the sex organs. It’s the brain in the neuro processing.
Like this is a lot interacting
John-Nelson Pope: now with the, the vasopressin, that actually, or the oxytocin that actually helps you keep that attachment going.
Chris Gazdik: The relations. Have you ever heard of vasopressin before? Yes. No, you have, you have not. I didn’t either. I didn’t even know what it was. So let me go down with some of the sign stuff.
We won’t get too heady because it will blow your brain, but two, two interesting hormones that are at play but not really talked about often. Right. Oxytocin often nicknamed the cuddle hormone and it’s actually released in large quantities. During sex breastfeeding actually, and childbirth. Mm-hmm. And interesting that, as you say, John, you pointed out these are all precursors to bonding.
[00:12:00] Bonding relationships. Right, exactly.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. I learned that when I, when I was on my breastfeeding journey. Right.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Which ended, yes, yes,
Victoria Pendergrass: yes. It’s, isn’t it? It’s, it’s over
definitely.
Chris Gazdik: We’ve moved on vasopressin, I didn’t even know what it was. Right. This was, had to do. I had to do research to figure out what it was, and it wasn’t even really highlighted in this article, but they clearly said that it had to do with attachment as well.
So it’s a hormone that helps blood vessels, constrict and helps in control of the amount of water and salt in the body, I think through the kidneys. Right. Wow. Like, how does that have to do with attachment? But no idea. Further Googling it and looking at it when in love, a man’s dopamine and vasopressin increase when they’re dating a, a woman enjoying it, sexually interested in their and, and,
and the for men vasopressin drops when we have sex with a woman and a woman’s dopamine and oxytocin will also [00:13:00] gradually increase if they’re enjoying dating and whatnot.
So there are some gender differences that actually operate. And then, you know, basically the generalized factor here that they cite is that these chemicals are greatly affected by, as you say, the limbic system, right? Mm-hmm. The fight or flight systems that we talk about in the brain. Now, I have a big point about that in a minute, but wow, how do you, how do you digest that?
Like that’s a lot of chemical stuff going on when we think about what is attraction,
Victoria Pendergrass: it’s kind of nice to have, cuz a lot of times, you know, you know the words lost attraction attachment, like, you know, those words, you know. Most people know words like testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, oxytocin, like serotonin, those types of things.
But I think it’s kind of nice to be able to pair them together that like one connects to another, like, right, like that lust connects to testosterone and estrogen and attraction connects to dopamine and serotonin and that other one. And then, [00:14:00] you know, like attachment connects to oxytocin and like, it’s kind of cool to see.
Well, figuring it out
Chris Gazdik: a little bit, I feel like.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, so, so each one of those hormones actually kind of build on building the bond. The bond starts at the very basic, and that it’s the lust and then it goes to the attraction. And then finally it deals with attachment and then, and that’s to keep us on the
Chris Gazdik: straight and narrow together.
Together, really together. If you value a monogamous society or you know, ideal, which many people do, some don’t. Yeah. Some go really into other categories of like, you know, why would you have, you know, marriage or attraction or permanent relationships when biologically we’re geared not to. Right. It’s an argument that people will, will, will
John-Nelson Pope: put that, I think that’s the polyamorous
Chris Gazdik: argument.
Yeah, absolutely. Right. And so [00:15:00] there’s the, just realize, I, I, I know you say people heard of oxytocin. I think a lot of people, honestly, Victoria won’t have heard of that chemical. Even they’ve heard of Oxy
John-Nelson Pope: Clean, but maybe not Ox
Chris Gazdik: Oxycon. OxiClean is different than Oxy. Very different and
Victoria Pendergrass: Vasin, I didn’t even know what it was.
Yeah, I didn’t never heard of that. Or the neuro, the, I don’t, the. The other one that’s, the other one goes with the
Chris Gazdik: track. He
John-Nelson Pope: pronounced it correctly. It’s a Nor Norrine
Chris Gazdik: nor, I mean, I know
Victoria Pendergrass: what Rine is. Yeah. It’s different as, but I know that’s not the same thing as what you said.
Chris Gazdik: Right, right. The, again, the idea here is there’s so much going on biologically and in the fight or flight systems.
We’ve talked about emotion focused therapy when people get into their, you know, engulfment or abandonment stances and have a tremendous level of insecurities and fear in the attachments that [00:16:00] we make. So how does that influence the biological system? Oh, dear. Right.
Victoria Pendergrass: Or is it the opposite that the biological system affects those things?
Chris Gazdik: Or vice versa, or there’s a huge interplay that we’re trying to study and, and learn about. And a lot of this is very, very cutting edge. And furthermore culture and, you know, experiential realities, particularly with, we’ll talk about detachment issues Totally play into this. I mean, you can shut your whole system down chemically.
And there’s a little foreshadowing here. This terrifies people when it, when it happens. And I’ve seen this in my therapy office. I’ve got several examples of people who are like, I can’t stand the way that my spouse smells. Hmm.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. Hmm. [00:17:00] It’s funny you bring that up. It’s, it’s
Chris Gazdik: a thing. Yeah. And I’m, I’m talking in therapy with this guy.
I was a young clinician at that particular time, and I’m like, I didn’t know what to do with that. I
Victoria Pendergrass: didn’t know what to do with that. You’re like, just tell him to wear cologne or perfume or
Chris Gazdik: what you’ve been, and this person was married. No, no. Then he double digit years. Yes. So what happens here? Right. So we’ll, we’ll get into that.
John, you look, you look quizzical or you look No, no, no. I,
John-Nelson Pope: I agree with you. Everything you’ve said so far.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. One, this might be off topic, not really, but one thing my high school English teacher told me is that like, I can’t remember exactly what she said, but it was something about how, you know, we’re attracted to people, like based on their smells.
And that’s something I’ve always, I don’t know if I necessarily. I mean, I don’t know if I fully believe like that’s solely what attracts us to people, but Oh, there’s
Chris Gazdik: real stuff
Victoria Pendergrass: there, I think. Yeah. But I mean, it’s always kind of stuck with me. Mm-hmm. [00:18:00] I just think that
John-Nelson Pope: in high school, 10th grade chemistry class, my lab partner.
I couldn’t stand how she smelled. No. And it, I, it was just ru Yeah. It, I, and it wasn’t that she was stinky or anything, it was just, I just,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. I could appreciate from high school. She smelled like that from, there’s stuff that’s really, really there. And I’ll tell you, there’s a study I didn’t find it. I, I didn’t look cuz I, I knew I wouldn’t be able to find it.
But they took like women and, and they, they a or they took guys, I think, and they asked them to wear their shirt three nights in a row or something like that. They put ’em in a jar and they took women to see who would choose to date the person based mm-hmm. On sort of the jar and, and the, what they, what they experienced there with the odor wasn’t stinky, like you say, John, it was just, you know, body chemistry.
Yeah. And then they tested them genetically and found however, sort of matches by how mm-hmm. What they chose. [00:19:00] What they chose. I mean,
Victoria Pendergrass: if they got it, like, I mean,
Chris Gazdik: and that’s pheromone world. Mm-hmm. By the way. Yeah. Yeah. Those are pheromone. Are we gonna get to that later or do we’ll see what we get to I don’t think pheromones a whole lot.
No.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. I just think it’s interesting cuz like I personally love the smell of my husband. Yeah. I mean that’s why, not why I married him, but to me he doesn’t need cologne cuz I think he smells great.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Yeah. I mean there, that’s, that’s why we mate, that’s why we you know, attract and, you know, part of what, what happens.
Right. So that’s a little bit, boy, that was a long segment, but what is attraction is something that’s really important to understand and we want to get to, how do we really manage this? Because I gotta tell you again, as a little bit of a break here, towards the end of the first third, this is a terrifying [00:20:00] reality.
When people find themselves out of love or not attracted to their spouse, or confused why they just don’t find a partner, they don’t, nothing does it for them, or, and they end up remaining single,
Victoria Pendergrass: or why they continue to pick the bad guy or the bad girl, or the person that’s always addicted to something, or the person that always ends up in jail, or the person that, you know, like, why do, why do I, you know, I, I hear people and I’m sure you know, both hear people.
Mm-hmm. Why do I always pick the. These types of guys or these types of girls, or, you know, and so it’s kind of like, what’s
Chris Gazdik: going on with me? Yeah. Now that’s a perfect transition. I just wanna really spend just another second on like, there’s hope out there. If you’re experiencing this, oh yeah, we can deal with this.
Get, you know, and you, and you probably really do need help. You know, it’s a, this is a very. [00:21:00] Good reason to seek therapy. This particular topic, because it breaks up marriages. It, it, it messes with people’s heads and feelings a lot. Well, tremendously.
John-Nelson Pope: And people will, will quit. Yes. In their, in their marriage when in fact they probably just need to keep working at it and, and, and learning to be patient and loving and accepting as much as they can, but that means they would have
Chris Gazdik: to change.
That’s where a lot of learning comes in. Yeah. And in addition, confronting some of the emotional realities that we get into. Because, Victoria, you didn’t realize it, but I think maybe you did. But that’s an awesome transition into why do I pick the wrong gal for me? Why do I consistently go into these life patterns?
Well, that isn’t, I suspect, as much biological as it is this next segment, which we’re much more ingrained with in therapy, which is the psychological factors that happen here. The big mm-hmm. Tea, right? What do you mean? Trauma. [00:22:00] Yes. Huge impacts with your trauma histories, whether it be sexual or violent, physical or even trauma in other ways.
And we’ve talked about trauma in a lot. That’s gonna affect the way that you attach
and it’s also gonna affect the way that your body kicks out hormones and such. Yeah. Big time. And if that’s not resolved and dealt with, your relationships are gonna struggle. I will make the statement. So again, you know, reach out and when you’re experiencing this stuff and, and get help because wonderful relationships are, you know, safe, secure attachments.
We all desire, they’re, they’re amazing when we can get into that, into that space. But listen to some of these things and, and see what you guys think. I don’t know what we want to sort of platoon out on, but I’m just gonna blast
through it and see what you guys, what you guys think. There are projection issues.
I mean, we’ve [00:23:00] described that a little bit before, but I think that issue, the defense emotionally of projection is a huge factor that can block your attraction, even when you used to have it and lost it or never got it. Right. Life trauma, we said detachment issues. It, it’s a detachment is another psychological defense mechanism.
Mm-hmm. You know, and there’s, there’s all kinds of things that go into detachment experiences in life, mental health conditions, medications. There’s a, another thing I’ll throw out there is something weird called reaction formation. That’s a psychology term for sure. Where you your, your, your reactions to people formulate as a defense in which.
You unconsciously replace unwanted or anxiety-provoking impulses with its opposite, often expressed in an exaggerated or showy way. So a classic example, [00:24:00] for instance, with this reaction formation process that you got is a young boy who bullies the girl who he’s attracted to, right? It’s a weird, mm-hmm.
Retraction formation. Oh, you should see Victoria’s eyes go on that one. On YouTube. Have you experienced that before?
Victoria Pendergrass: No. I mean, I don’t recall, but it’s bunch of bull
Chris Gazdik: crap. So you don’t
John-Nelson Pope: agree with Dr. Freud on
Victoria Pendergrass: that? I do not agree that if a, a boy. Bullies you. Oh, he secretly likes you. I’m sorry, but you’re teaching a girl that it’s okay for a boy to be mean to her and to, I don’t think bully.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s her. I don’t think that’s what that is. It’s just it
Victoria Pendergrass: you’re just describing. Sorry. Yeah. I may have taken that in a, I may have been, that may have been No, no. I
John-Nelson Pope: just think, I think that basically describes behavior, right? Yeah. So,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, it’s a, it’s a psychological behavioral [00:25:00] reaction. It’s not
John-Nelson Pope: something to be aspired to.
It’s just to understand. Well,
Chris Gazdik: and people don’t know they’re doing it though, Victoria is what happens with that, right? Like they, they’re, they’re really not aware of this stuff going on and it just psychologically
John-Nelson Pope: falls. Do you think sometimes teasing might be some of
Chris Gazdik: that a hundred percent, don’t you? I mean, yeah, I do.
Yeah. You know, I mean, we’re playful and we’re teasing. That can be borderline flirting. Uhhuh, where’s the line? How does that work? You know, these are questions I want us to be aware of and think about. Let me to sum it all up. When it comes to the use of defense mechanisms, there’s a physically and a palp and, and a palpability to them.
Right? For example, when a person is disassociating during sex, they can feel detached and disembodied. When a person is in denial about their sex life with their partner, acts as though it’s fine when it’s not, or that it doesn’t matter. When it does, there’s a [00:26:00] dissonance that occurs as a physical intimacy and sexual pleasure.
There are, they can even become avoided. And lastly, when a person is, you know, a mooring, that’s a weird word, John. You like words, right? Right. A mooring during sex there that’s loving. Yes. Thank you. There’s a lack of physical intensity or sexual ecstasy, which is replaced by physical stress and tension, right?
What these defense mechanisms all have in common is their role in keeping sexually. Keeping couples sexually dissatisfied or insecurely attached, or even detached, like, there’s a lot going on here in the way that our psychology systems get set up and operate with things like projection and some stuff that I’m, I’m listing it’s a lot.
Right, right. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: When you were describing some of the, the actions during sex, the physicality and all of that, right. I was thinking of, of something that is
the most [00:27:00] sexual non-sexual act actually, which is, which is the tango, is the dance. It’s just
Chris Gazdik: very intimate. Yes. A very intimate dance. It
John-Nelson Pope: is very intimate and everybody’s fully clothed and yet Sure.
It’s,
Victoria Pendergrass: it’s, you can feel it just watching. Yeah. People who do the tango. Well, yes, you can. Like, it’s an expression. Yeah. You can like feel the energy.
Chris Gazdik: And it’s a great metaphor for what we’re trying to do when we try to manage these issues of traction and interaction and attachment to be secure. Like Tangoing, I don’t know much about dancing and my wife will tell you, I’ll suck at it.
Boy, there’s a balance there and there’s an interplay and there’s a leading and a following and you know, there’s, there’s a lot going on when you’re watching people that are really good at it. Right. And that’s what we do. And we relate. So that’s a lot. I know. [00:28:00] Is there any that we, that you guys think we should maybe spend a minute on, like projection for instance, or one of the other ones to think about?
Like, how do I want. Someone listening to this or thinking through this to have an idea of what’s the, what’s the real application of that? How does that really work? How can we try to convey that? Do you
Victoria Pendergrass: wanna give like a specific example?
Chris Gazdik: I have several in my mind. Yeah. Do you all,
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, I can’t think of one off the top of my head, but Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: What are you, what
Chris Gazdik: are you think? Yeah, what are you thinking? Well, I, I, I wanna be careful because of, you know, active therapy and confidentiality and that type of thing. And I haven’t really thought, I thought, how could I use examples and stuff? So I, I’ll try to speak broadly, but you know, y’all have experienced
this in therapy many times, I think, where people come in and they’re really, really freaked out.
Like, I just don’t, you know, the, I wish, I wish Casey were here because she would [00:29:00] break into song over, you know, I have just lost that loving feeling. Go it. Do it, John. I’ve You
John-Nelson Pope: could do it. Do it, John. I lost that loving and feeling Whoa, whoa. Loving and feeling. It’s a classic. Yes. Right? How do you lose it?
Chris Gazdik: How do you lose it? Yeah. What happens? How the,
John-Nelson Pope: the spark goes out. It’s the embers grow code.
Chris Gazdik: Our relationship is dead. Yeah. What do we do? I guess we’re done. Yeah. Right. And, and, and these psychological things, as much as the biological aspects can, can, I mean, they, they, they can block it
John-Nelson Pope: falling in and out of love.
Oh yes. Falling in and out of love. You know, that’s from Amy. Right.
Chris Gazdik: People do not believe when I oftentimes start marriage counseling that they can fall back. Mm-hmm. In love. Yeah. We are too far [00:30:00] gone. We’re totally different people. I don’t. Even like this person I’m married to anymore, it’s terribly
Victoria Pendergrass: heartbreaking.
So where’s the projection in that then? Like what exactly would are, go ahead. Like what exactly are you, are, would that person be projecting? Okay. I’m,
Chris Gazdik: I’m glad that you, you went with that because I, I, I, I had a very powerful experience with somebody. Ah, see that’s a confidentiality thing, and I, I’ll speak very broad again.
Right. Like, you know, they were, this is, this is years ago still so as well, but they were married like eight months and struggling with this idea of like, I don’t even, like, hi, his mannerisms. I don’t like, you know what? He, how he acts, I don’t like how he treats me. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I [00:31:00] think this is done. I made a mistake.
Mm-hmm. We’re eight months in or a year and some change in. Right. And I identified in session a, a projection reality mm-hmm. For her.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, so she was, in other words, that was something that she was doing to, well,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. Let me go a little further. Okay. Yeah. Because what she experienced and what we identified and talked about was things that she had experienced in her life with family were in her mind and they project out like a TV story exactly.
To the person that you are observing your spouse, when it’s not the spouse’s characteristics, it’s actually the characteristics that she experienced in her family that she detested. I had. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. Now, I’ve seen that also with people that have been physically abused and they, hundred, a hundred percent.
They come into a new relationship and the person is not abusive, abusive
Chris Gazdik: at all. Right? But they see [00:32:00] control. You’re controlling me, or they see you Don’t value me. You don’t respect me. So, and that, and that
John-Nelson Pope: person, by the way, that’s on the receiving end of that kind of feels like, am I like this?
Victoria Pendergrass: What’s the heck going on? Yeah, yeah. Or what the heck? Like, so you’re saying that in your example the projection comes from that this person is taking aspects of things going on with her family, right? And she’s projecting that onto, onto her spouse.
Chris Gazdik: Her spouse. Now, the classic levels of projection are, you know, kind of characteristics about myself that I don’t like, right?
That I’ll project onto, you know, the, the individual. So again, all of this crushes. Attachment and lust.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s a form of transference and counter
Chris Gazdik: ference. Yeah. This is what we experience in sessions. Yes. Yeah. Right. All of these dynamics, oh dude, they just dynamically engage in the up and down of a long term
Victoria Pendergrass: marriage arrange.
And that’s where therapy comes into Ha comes in handy because you may not huge, you may not [00:33:00] realize that that’s what you’re doing. That that, that you’re projecting your past traumas or your, you know, whatever it is onto your relationship. And so then, You know, you’re confused. Like John said, the, you know, the other person on the other end of it is confused cuz they’re like, what the heck is happening?
And you know, why are you, you know, acting like this, you know,
Chris Gazdik: whatever. In fact, I might go a step further and totally agree with you. You’re on point. Can I say that A vast majority of the time Oh yes. People do not know they’re doing this. Oh, for sure. Amen. Oh yeah. And then, and I don’t mean amen. In a good way.
Right? So and then there’s blame that’s put actually mm-hmm. On the other person. On the
Victoria Pendergrass: spouse.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. On the spouse. And this stuff is whirling around in your own experience. And then we could go even further and find that people are doing that to each other. [00:34:00] Oh man. This stuff is moving around. Right? So, yes, Victoria, again, you know, you’re gonna find this stuff going on and it’s, it’s really difficult to sort of weed through in your own mind and your own thoughts and getting help with this stuff is, is, is arguably maybe one of the best reasons to search out therapy because this is really tough stuff.
So
Victoria Pendergrass: then that leads me to ask, and you can tell me if we’re not gonna talk about this right now, okay? But the whole question of the episode.
Chris Gazdik: Yep. What
Victoria Pendergrass: do you mean? Like what each of us think on that answer?
Chris Gazdik: Let’s take a spin around, okay. Do we control the attraction that we experience? I guess she posed the question and I’m throwing it to all of us.
So you’re up, John.
John-Nelson Pope: Do we control the attraction of
Chris Gazdik: the experience? Mm-hmm. That we experience.
John-Nelson Pope: I would say that it’s a process of [00:35:00] learning. I think that when one is hits puberty, then that’s everything goes haywire. Yep. And so, yep. There’s lack of control to a certain extent. Menopause. Menopause is another one.
Pregnancy.
Chris Gazdik: Pregnancy. Post-pregnancy. Postpartum. Yep. Yeah, postpartum. I don’t know why I couldn’t think
John-Nelson Pope: about that. Yeah. A man riding a bicycle too much.
Chris Gazdik: What does that mean?
John-Nelson Pope: But that affects your your testosterone. Oh,
Chris Gazdik: shoot. Too, too much bicycle riding. Yes. That’s bad. Yeah. I thought, but that’s a good thing to do.
I’m short confus. The
Victoria Pendergrass: short answer that Victoria is looking for is yes or no.
Chris Gazdik: Ooh. Well, I’ll take a stab at that and say, Can we control the attractions that we experience? At times it very much feels like we can’t, and we’re influence because we’re influenced biologically. But that we can, [00:36:00]
John-Nelson Pope: and I would agree, and I’d say that we are often attracted to people that, but we don’t act on that.
We don’t even Right. And, and, and you can
Chris Gazdik: squash it. You can suppress it. You can suppress it.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Mean squash. It is a
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Juicier word. I mean Okay. I think about, I would agree with you is my answer. But I’d like, I think about, okay, when I go to the gym, Right. And there’s men, other people, you know, walking around, working out beautiful,
Chris Gazdik: whatever people.
Right, right.
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, like, I may look at someone,
Chris Gazdik: I love my gym, but I don’t
John-Nelson Pope: see that very often. Oh yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Chris goes to the same gym
John-Nelson Pope: as they have to, they have to look at me.
Victoria Pendergrass: That’s, but I mean, I think about the fact, I may look at someone and say like, oh, this person is cute, this person is attractive. But like you’re saying, I’m not gonna like walk up, walk up to them and be like, Hey, you wanna go hook up or you wanna go hang out?
Okay. So it’s not, you don’t like, you know. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And
John-Nelson Pope: so it’s the Olivia Newton John song. Let’s [00:37:00] Get Physical. Let’s get physical, right? Let me hear your body
Chris Gazdik: talk. Yeah. That’s what the words are. Yeah. Isn’t it funny how we do have song and culture around these issues that we all experience, but to get in the weeds and have this conversation is so important because as much as we know it’s there, I don’t think we understand it.
And that’s why people, Victoria feel like I don’t have any control over this. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: I keep getting the same bad guy all over and over again. And
Chris Gazdik: that’s why it’s terrifying. You know, you’re looking at your 15 year old spouse and you’re like, I got nothing. I don’t wanna be with him.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. I’m gonna clarify that I’m 15 year old spouse, that he means someone that has 15, been married for 15 years, not a 15 year old child.
Thank you guys.
Chris Gazdik: Thank you guys. My, that the, the good intent was there. Oh, I mean,
Victoria Pendergrass: I think it’s a combo of it. Like, you know, It’s not [00:38:00] just, okay. Yes, I mentioned earlier that like, I love the smell of my husband, but it’s not just that like it’s my chemicals that I am attracted to him, but it’s also like the other qualities of him, like his personality and his, you know, like, hi, the way that he looks and the way, you know, the way that he dresses, the way that hes acts, the way that he, his culture, love our son, the way that he, you know, treats his mom and his family members.
Like, it’s all those things that it’s not, I don’t think it’s solely biological. It’s
John-Nelson Pope: so, it’s not just rutting as I use Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s lust. It’s not just lust. It’s, it’s the whole nine yards. And yes, I think in a way my wife and I are. Are still in lust in
Chris Gazdik: many ways. It’s good for you. Okay. Yeah.
What’s valuable? Go a little further with that, if you’re willing. Cause so, but that’s an aspect
John-Nelson Pope: of it. But then there’s also the the, there’s a sense of of attraction. I’m very much attracted to [00:39:00] her. And and, and we’ve been in a long-term relationship for 41 years. Right. And and then it goes even beyond that when when Bethany and Day and Katie were born, I had oxytocin.
I had that sense, the of of bonding attachment. Attachment and f and fell in love with my kids in a different way. Mm-hmm. But it also caused me to fall in love more with my family and my wife. And it bonded us
Chris Gazdik: together. It moves around and I, I think I’d like to ask you in those 40 years, I mean, I think it’s powerful kind of as well, you know, when you don’t and my wife is hot.
Okay, but, but, but what about when you don’t feel that way? Right, right. When it goes away or you get into a rough period of life. Yeah. Well, does that, does that go up and down?
Victoria Pendergrass: Right? Well, do you think [00:40:00] it also can be caused by situational, for example, husband and wife, or a couple that’s married and one of the spouse’s cheats and now all of a sudden the other spouse that was cheated on finds that they are no longer attracted or as attracted,
Chris Gazdik: and they
John-Nelson Pope: make it worse because they’ll go and cheat themselves.
Sometimes. Sometimes, and I’m not saying all the time,
Chris Gazdik: you mean
Victoria Pendergrass: he literally, like,
Chris Gazdik: they will go someone or they’ll with another per as a person?
John-Nelson Pope: No, no. They’ll, I don’t have an affair. Yeah. Have another affair. They’ll have an affair just to show the other, oh person,
Chris Gazdik: let try this right here. The way you guys just went with the affairs and whatever, right.
Remember psychological defense mechanisms. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the biological interplay. Mm-hmm. Remember I went in to say like, we will do that unknowingly to our spouse. Mm-hmm. And then sometimes our spouse is [00:41:00] doing that back at the same time at at us. Mm-hmm. And so we have this interplay back and forth that can cycle down hard.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, and, and, and you’re right. And sometimes with jealousy, for example, somebody says, well, I don’t want you to talk to other men. I don’t want you to well, It’s the, the projection mm-hmm. Where he actually is having an affair
Chris Gazdik: or classic projection. Yeah. Yeah. Classic projection. Yeah. You can’t talk to anybody else.
Yeah. Meanwhile, I know I’m having an affair and so I’m projecting onto you that you are not being, you know, nice and phone if I’m not un unfaithful. You’re not, you didn’t answer my text quick enough and, and you’re clearly not interested, but I’m pro project. Right. That stuff new Ooh boy, gets really painful.
So part of what we want to get to is how do we manage this stuff so that we can stay as close to a good space, or when we get out of a good space, and you will, I mean, you will and, and to get back into a [00:42:00] safe attachment. Right? Now, you didn’t answer me, and I don’t wanna put you on the spot either, John, but are there times that you, you felt that struggle and pull in other directions or, or you know, hard spots of your life?
John-Nelson Pope: We’ve had hard times when my wife had been physically ill. And that’s been during much of our, our, through chronic illness, much of our time. It’s our activities have kind of had to be altered and changed. Right now, I noticed how I said that with a little arched eyebrow, but that, that does affect that.
And so, or we’re having difficulties for ha perhaps some financial struggles and so we start beating each other up verbally
Chris Gazdik: a bit bit. Right? What’s that dude? Oxytocin. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Cause it’s caused down.
Chris Gazdik: Right. Yeah. You know, I’d say there’s, there’s physical pain, chronic pain, pain. There’s issues with addiction.
There are anxiety conditions that people have. Yeah, there’s trauma. I [00:43:00] mean, there’s a lot of these different things. But then
John-Nelson Pope: I, I guess in terms of, and this is why I think there is the institution of marriage, and I think it is something that is not natural in the sense that we’re not born to be married.
I think, I think that’s something that is deep culture and was developed because, and, and it’s found almost in every culture that that’s ever existed is, is the concept of marriage. But I think it’s an, it, it’s a. As a result of the need to see how families can work together and, and be together, but it keeps you together sometimes when life is really
Chris Gazdik: sucks.
Did, didn’t. Yeah, absolutely. Neil, help me for a moment. Did, did we not do a show on the purpose of marriage? I feel like we did. Or is that in my head to do? Do, do you recall? You don’t remember that one? Okay. Well that one’s on my list. It’s coming. But to
Victoria Pendergrass: answer your [00:44:00] original question of like, you know, you can get through this kind of thing.
Yeah. I think there’s two things. In my opinion. Okay. Okay. Therapy through a therapist’s eyes, right? Yes. Therapy. Oh, and self-reflection. Okay. And that’s how I feel as far as like working through stuff. You know, therapy’s gonna help you give you that third person point of view, outside person objectivity object.
Yeah. And then, I mean, if you’re not willing to do therapy or you can, or for whatever reason, think self-reflection is a good way to,
John-Nelson Pope: okay. I, I buy that. Yeah. And I think there’s another aspect to it. Okay. And even if you’re not a religious person, there’s a sense that we’re all spiritual to a certain extent.
And so there was a sense of something that’s greater. Than the two of you. And that is the, the bonding that comes. In other words, the marriage itself is a, is a third aspect in. Mm-hmm. And [00:45:00] so there’s, and so in other words, you’ve got that idea. So even when, when things are really tough and horrible and aside from abuse and
Chris Gazdik: Constantine and all of that, you always need to make a point out of abusive relationships that are violent or physically or emotionally unsafe is a different story, but I’m talking about
John-Nelson Pope: where I just don’t feel in love anymore.
Yeah. There’s, there’s times we all go through those deserts, those wilderness, but that also is an opportunity to, to become even more dedicated and redouble your efforts to be and reaffirm that marriage and go deeper. I think there’s certain people that that can’t get past the superficial
Chris Gazdik: and that you said a lot there my friend.
Yeah. Absolutely. I just want that to marinade a little bit because there’s a lot of power in what you say. Mm-hmm. And thank you, John. Thank you. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s something that we’ve seen in our therapy rooms, I’m sure
you’ve [00:46:00] seen in religious circles and, and your experience with the military.
I think you, you, you say Yeah. You know something greater than ourselves, which is our family or our culture and the stability. There’s a lot there. Yeah. What, what’s the difference?
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. World War ii These guys get married they meet somebody at the, at the USO United Service Organization to at a dance, or they’ll, they’ll meet at let’s say somebody’s doing something and they,
Chris Gazdik: why is everything in an acronym in the military, by the way?
I don’t know. You noticed that, sir? Dude, I’m sorry. Charlie
John-Nelson Pope: Tangle. Okay. Anyway, so, so they only know each other for two weeks. That’s how, that’s how one of he was an engineer and he was he was at, he was an Aggie and he went and he was a pilot and he was an engineer before and he, he went into, and he was, they only knew the person for two weeks [00:47:00] and they’d been married 60 years.
That’s just now why is that? And that’s because he was de, they both were deeply religious, or they had, they had or they didn’t have to be b both deeply religious, but they stayed together. And there was that sense of, of commonality
Chris Gazdik: yes. Purpose. No, absolutely. There’s, there’s things that kick that off and, and, you know, everyone’s had that experience, you know, where you, you, you talk with somebody, you feel like you knew them your whole life.
Even a wonderful long-term friendship can be born that way. Oh, yeah. Or you have an intense experience. You know, I like the show survivor and people are having an intense experience over 30 days. Oh, they get really dirty though. Oh, I know they do. I love it. I, I still love it all these years later. But the point is, is they develop relationships after the show that way, Uhhuh.
Mm-hmm. Sometimes marriages, uhhuh start there. Right? Because there’s intensity under emotion. There’s, you’re in a, under a lot of stress in that sense, kicks off this biological system. [00:48:00]
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, and then I think this Laura is also you, you know, you’re with someone who also has experienced a similar thing and kind of knows what you went through.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. There’s social and cultural relatedness to each other, which creates a bonded mm-hmm. Attachments. Yeah. I, I don’t want to avoid this section. I’m gonna go and do it real quick, just because I know it’s big into our, our news and stuff lately. And, and I, I, it’s, it’s, it’s only gonna get an honorable mention, but there’s some links and stuff there and, you know, you, you think about attraction with the L G B LGBTQ qpl community.
Right. You know, and, and it’s heavily in the news cultural worlds and all the whatever political stuff who are not going political on this. But I, I do want to, you know, spend just a moment on, you know, kind of what we know and what we don’t know about the real issues and the social issues and, you know, the, the things that are going on with that.
Because oh, and. Something that’s new that I thought was new with [00:49:00] my idea. And usually it isn’t a, a connection with the autism spectrum, with, with the community is there’s an article, there’s a link to check out. We’re starting to see potentials with that. I know. I saw your eyes go, John. Right? Wow. Have you ever thought of that before?
John-Nelson Pope: No, I haven’t. And but then I’ve worked with some clients, something, isn’t it autistic? Yeah. On the spectrum. Yeah. And yeah, I think
Chris Gazdik: it’s a thing. I think it’s, this occurred to me very recently in my own brain weeks ago, very, very stupid, fresh uhhuh. And I’ve Googled it and looked at it uhhuh and like there’s some, there’s some stuff there, there’s some research there.
Yeah. I
Victoria Pendergrass: mean, but the question is, is the, is there also a biological aspect to attractiveness? In the LGBTQ plus community? Is that what you’re asking? Say that again. That there’s, is there that same biological component? Yes. Is
Chris Gazdik: that, that’s what you’re asking. Right. So again, we, I know we can go a total deep dive on this when we’re [00:50:00] doing a an honorable mention because it’s an issue that I’m sure is on people’s minds.
And there’s an article what Scientists Know and Don’t Know About Sexual Orientation Association for Psychological Science and the aps. Right? That’s, there’s a click you can link on it. Paraphrased. What I saw them talking about is based on their review of the latest science. Bailey and colleagues draw several
conclusions about the nature of sexual orientation and the paraphrased pieces that they kind of had their summary on is, you know, across cultures.
It is a small but non-trivial percentage affected by cultural norms and traditions. They, they intimated that men’s and women’s orientation manifest in different ways, which I thought was interesting. The various biological factors are needing to be looked at or understood prenatal hormones and specific genetic profiles.
And then lastly, a paraphrased finding. The science does [00:51:00] not support the notion that this can be taught or learned through social means, which is something that people in our news or in our world are terrified or worried about. I mean, right. So there’s, there’s some stuff that’s there. And I think,
Victoria Pendergrass: and this just may be a personal view, but I think if there’s a biological component when it comes to a man and a woman, why would there not be a biological component when it’s a man and a man or a woman?
And a woman? Mm-hmm. Like, That, to me, that just doesn’t make sense. Whether it would be there for a man and a woman, but not for a same sex. The
Chris Gazdik: same sex couple,
Victoria Pendergrass: couple. Sure. Like what does it just like get off Like that just doesn’t make sense.
Chris Gazdik: There has to be biology involved. Yeah. You know, in this, in this issue.
And you know, I, I’ve heard reports or information about like in the transgender community, you know, just to demonstrate the, some of the realities that are there. There’s been medical practices of not [00:52:00] knowing which gender the baby is. Mm-hmm. And so literally they would just cut it off. Right Now we don’t do that anymore.
Right. No, but that’s real stuff that happened. Yeah. So it’s like, Well, what does that mean? So it’s,
John-Nelson Pope: it, it, so there’s ambiguity there and so massive ambiguity and what happens is the child is, is raised as one sex or another.
Victoria Pendergrass: Ah, there’s a Grey’s Anatomy episode about
Chris Gazdik: it. Is there? That’s right. You love Grey Grey
Victoria Pendergrass: Anatomy.
Anatomy episode is, there’s this girl, this young girl who comes in and they think that she has a like a mass on her ovaries. Well, it turns out that it’s a testy. Oh, wow. And so she actually is a her maite. And so, so
it’s
Chris Gazdik: a testy and an ovary That is, yeah. That is kind of combined and I think so. Oh God.
Now that’s a show, is that It is possible. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: But the point, well the point, the point behind it is now this girl has felt like out of place her [00:53:00] whole life and she gets excited when she’s like, I could be a boy. Like, and so, yeah, because, and her parents raised her as a girl and well, part of it is the parents want the testie just removed and don’t wanna tell their daughter.
Like, they don’t wanna even, you know, give, right. Let’s not even give her that. Yeah. And so it does come out, you know, whatever. And so, I mean,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. No, there’s, there’s a lot there and, and, and a lot that we don’t understand again, about hormones. I, I would submit to you and the way that they operate and, you know, these things with attachment and attraction and lust are all, you know, intertwined and, and, Talk about confusion that people have socially and emotionally, also biologically, right.
I wanna try to get us off of that if that’s okay. Let’s, let’s transition. We’ve already started talking, so we’re actually transition back into like, how, how do we really manage this? You know, how do we manage this [00:54:00] in the workplace? John, when I’m attracted to a coworker and I fail a vibe there, and they, they feel like my soulmate Victoria, how do we manage this when, you know, I have kids and I’m in postpartum depression.
And I, I, I’m convinced I made a marital mistake.
Victoria Pendergrass: How do we Yes. Stand the site to look at a man, not,
Chris Gazdik: or ending, man, look
John-Nelson Pope: what you did to me.
Chris Gazdik: How do we really manage this stuff? And we kind of get to marital counseling, don’t we? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. Something So meander around for a moment, guys. What do we, how do we, how do we deal with all this?
Where’s the, where’s the hope? Well, I’m
John-Nelson Pope: wondering if there’s a, a little bit of normalization too. And that is just that it’s you. You’re not human if you don’t feel attracted to somebody. I think that’s part of being human. And it’s how you act on it again. Mm-hmm. And who is, you remember who you’ve, who you’re committed to.
So even though there’s a [00:55:00] sense that you don’t act on necessarily having that impulse, affair. Impulse, I mean, we’re
Chris Gazdik: for or against, right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that’s a powerful reality, I think, when you really think about what you are experiencing biologically, what you act on, which goes directly to the whole topic of our concept tonight, right?
Do we control our attraction? Right? And at times it feels like we don’t because of biological and other things going on, but that we do with the influence of psychological factors. And the hopelessness that you can feel can be replaced by the work that you do. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s, yeah. And I think
John-Nelson Pope: there’s always there’s always hope.
I think, I think it’s, I important that when people say, well, I, I just went out of this marriage. Right. I went out right now. Yeah. I went out of this relationship right [00:56:00] now. Okay. And I’m, I’m someone who says, let’s take some time and, and discuss this. Let’s examine it. And I, I would say most of the time that person comes to his or her own decision that they, or they would
Chris Gazdik: want to stay a hundred percent.
Remember that example with projection that I, I did use mm-hmm. Not more than weeks or a few months later. Mm-hmm. I remember distinctly having a conversation where they said to me, I, I just, this is amazing. I have no idea how I could have been feeling the way that I was feeling. Or thinking the way that I was thinking,
Victoria Pendergrass: it’s almost like,
Chris Gazdik: you know, like it’s a reversal.
It was like,
Victoria Pendergrass: wow. When, when co when John, like John’s talking about couples that, you know, you have with someone that jumps into it, it’s like couples that get divorced and then get remarried. That happens, you know, 10 years later. Right. Or, you know, after the kid they, you know, they divorce and then after the kids go to college [00:57:00] or or adults themselves, they get back.
They find themselves getting back together.
Chris Gazdik: There’s a lot of examples and Yeah. And everyone writes your own story. Yeah. And
Victoria Pendergrass: so, I mean, it’s not that. You know, we mentioned earlier like, can you fall back in love with someone? Right. A hundred percent. And then there’s
John-Nelson Pope: any other, there’s another aspect of it, and I think we’re, we’re living, we’re, we’re so individualistic in our society.
Mm-hmm. Unfortunately. Yeah. I think culturally we need to be more supportive. And, and again, not to go back to the wife beater Okay. Or anything of
Chris Gazdik: that. So yeah, we’re not talking about domestic violence. We’re not talking, I’m about,
John-Nelson Pope: or emotional safety, getting safety, getting support of a safety net of support, friendships that people can, can help carry that load.
A lot of times couples are under so much stress and they feel like they have no one to help them. And I think our society kind of contributes to that.
Chris Gazdik: And if, well, John, to play devil’s advocate, who am I supposed to talk to? I’m gonna be judged. People were [00:58:00] gonna make me look stupid. I, yeah. I had an affair.
Well, what, you know, who do I talk to about this? Well, I had an affair because we we’re a friendly neighborhood therapist here, so, well, but you see what I’m pointing at? Yeah, exactly. But you know, the, the, the, the, the spouse who betrayed their spouse is like, look, we, we haven’t been close for years. And so yeah.
I had an affair. Who am I supposed to talk to about this That’s not gonna judge me. Mm-hmm. That’s not gonna crash on me. That’s not gonna think I’m doing something wrong or I’m a bad person. You know, I can’t tell my friends this holy cow, they love my spouse. Mm-hmm. Or whatever sort of meandering. You see what I’m saying?
It’s the antithesis. You’re right. We need to have a supportive environment that we could talk about these things and manage the things, otherwise they will. But I hear explode on us.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yep. And I can hear, and I can see and hear how somebody would, would think that, and they think the worst they have, the stereotypes they have, the sense that nobody’s gonna understand.
Right. And, and it’s so alone. And I think there’s always somebody that they can talk to. And there can
Chris Gazdik: be a [00:59:00] trusted person. Here’s a point, find somebody. Do not be alone with these feelings. When you’re losing your attraction or out of love or confused about your, your, your process of finding a spouse or a partner.
Like those things are not to be alone with you. You really need to reach out. The psychological aspects are confusing. You don’t even know they’re going on. A lot of times the biological things that are happening may be biological changes in your life, teenagers or later in life, physical pain, physical issues, ailments like, we do not wanna be alone with this stuff, right guys?
Mm-hmm. It’s a bad idea. And you don’t have to be, you feel like you have to be, but why do you not have to be? I agree. Because
Victoria Pendergrass: there are people that can be, that can love you and be there to support you, whether that be friends, family, or a therapist or whoever. But I mean,
Chris Gazdik: Pe people that [01:00:00] you find emotional safety with.
Yeah. Is a, is a, is a piece of it. But yeah, reach ou
Victoria Pendergrass: if you don’t have someone, a friend or family, that’s when a therapist can come in handy because it’s our job. Like we’re, we’re supportive people. We, we want the best for our, our client’s mental health and for what you choose. Yeah. And I mean, I’ve had people come to me that say, okay, I don’t, I don’t feel comfortable talking to my mom or my dad or my sisters or my, and if you’re distrustful,
John-Nelson Pope: you know, and if you’re distrustful, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to
Chris Gazdik: Jo Victoria.
That’s right. I hit her so I, there you go.
John-Nelson Pope: But. If you’re distrustful of the therapist, go and do a search, do the license search. It’ll see if there’s any, any bumps or ouches on that. Mm-hmm. On that. And I think if so, if you, that you can build trust and if, and if the therapist doesn’t work out or the counselor doesn’t work out, you can always go to another one.
Oh yeah. That’s a. [01:01:00] It
Chris Gazdik: better help.
Victoria Pendergrass: Better help Is one of those
Chris Gazdik: Uhhuh Oh yes. Our, our show sponsor. We haven’t had a lot of them in a little while. You can go to the website and click on the counseling tab and find one that, that, that, that you get screened on for. Yeah. Look. Yeah. I love there. There’s, you, you, you can deal with the psychological barriers, the trauma that’s in your life, the reaction formations that you have that you don’t know are going on.
The biology doesn’t have to be completely in control. You know, you, it guides you, you work with it. Mm-hmm. You, you, you see like your husband smells good to you. You know, that’s, that’s your biology helping you to, to, to, to wade through this when you are in control of your impulses and, you know, there’s, there’s ways to kind of manage that so that you do feel empowered in your level of attachment.
Mm-hmm. With people that you choose to attach with, you know? That might be a good way to take us outta here, man, you guys I didn’t think we were gonna, [01:02:00] I think we got through this one, man. We did a good job. I
think getting through some really meaty stuff. And I’ll remind you, you know, we got links on the website.
This is a really good one to, to use that, that workforce, it’s free to you to use. So please do. So closing thoughts, guys, things you, things you’re thinking about. Hope
Victoria Pendergrass: is not lost. Indeed. I don’t know.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I, I think, and part of that is you gotta, you gotta work. You gotta both work at it and be humble enough to say, there’s some things I need to do to change ev on both sides.
Mm-hmm. If there’s the sense of we’ve fallen out of love, you, it, it takes a lot of self-work and reflection, but also willingness to work with the other
Chris Gazdik: person. Well said guys. I I appreciate you staying with us, hanging with us. This is through a therapist, Oz, where we endeavor to figure this thing out together and this is an [01:03:00] area that we need a lot of figuring.
So stay well, we’ll see you next week. Take care. Bye.