After you are hurt, the first thing that most people try to do is try to figure out what happened and ask themselves what they did to cause it. In a lot of situations, when you are hurt by someone else, the most important thing to remember is that it is not your fault. We further investigate this by re-addressing shame-based feelings and to look at how the blame game can easily be directed back to you when it should not be. To handle the emotional pain, we look at how you can manage these experiences.
Tune in to see that it is Not Your Fault When Hurt by Others Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Understand shame based feelings… again
- Understand blame
- Understand what leads to hurt feelings and emotional pain and how to manage the experience
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Episode #245 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, I am Chris Gazdik and this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes. You get insights directly from a panel of therapists, in personal time in your car, and at home. We have Mr. John Pope is with us today. How are you, sir? I’m doing outstanding. We were just saying how we enjoy the lack of drop of humidity that we’ve got in the air here, huh?
Oh my
John-Nelson Pope: goodness. Wonderful. I’m free. At least for a few more
Chris Gazdik: months. Imagine here, the many ways today that you have experienced hurt, you’ve experienced hurt and pain and, and, and that’s from people and situations in your life. We’re going to talk about that today and how to cope with it. And the tag here kind of is that it is not your fault.
We tend to under deliver that [00:01:00] message to ourselves when we feel hurt or, you know, things have gone on in our lives, either momentarily or chronically. So that is what we’re going to be talking about here on September the 21st, 2023. Miss Victoria is not with us. She has some childcare challenges, but Mr.
John Pope is.
John-Nelson Pope: And I’m glad to be here. All right. So hopefully we will make this engaging and say that with
Chris Gazdik: zest. I love that. I love that. So to subscribe to the show helps us out. Click the bell guys for notifications and give us the thumbs up. It really helps us get known and shown and seen in the algorithms and whatnot.
John gets upset if you give us a four star. So we want a five star. Thank you. Please. We have to say please. Please, right? Yes.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m a southerner. It has to
Chris Gazdik: be here, here to our show sponsor. We have first horizon that is sponsoring [00:02:00] the show. We’re appreciative and grateful to them. They are a pretty cool bank.
I’m going to say, honestly, it, it’s a great feeling. We had One of the representatives on the show and talked about their care for customer service. Like, it’s not just a talking point, I think, with them. I’ve experienced it walking to their branch in the local branch here and it’s a good feeling. In fact,
John-Nelson Pope: I saw you walking to the branch.
Going to the branch? Yeah, and I was, went to Duncan’s
Chris Gazdik: and put a deposit in and yeah, it’s within walking distance here. I like that too. Yes, it is. That’s unique to us, but around the states, man, they’ve got lots of branches next to you. Find one, check them out. First Horizon. They are awesome. Also we have the show come, coming to you from, from Reed Ferguson.
He would love to come to your party, your event, and do a, a private… Personal and really cool engagement with his music. R E I D T Ferguson, F [00:03:00] E R G U S O N. com. Check them out. It’s good stuff. Good Scottish name. Is it, is that Scottish?
John-Nelson Pope: I think Ferguson is, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: I would have no idea, that I, you know, I can see that.
So this is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. With all of us and you. So, I don’t know how we should start, John. I was, I was curious about your, your response when you found the topic. And you said, well, you’ll see. See, and I’m like, Oh, so the hurt that we experience in life.
And the, the idea that I had with this was, was really kind of tagged onto, like, you know, last week you really had to check out the show guys listening out there. We did one on emotional freedom and I got great feedback that that was a really cool show. Like, like I had a few people reach out, tell me like, Oh, that was a good one.[00:04:00]
You know, and, and I, and I was looking at coordinating things a little bit with the theme and you know, letting go and forgiving and, and experiencing a concept of emotional freedom. How well does that tag up with when you feeling hurt by others? I, I,
John-Nelson Pope: well, my experience with, with feeling hurt is, is that, If you’re feeling that hurt, you can’t, it’s hard for you to empathize or to be able to,
to, you get bound up, your emotions get very bound up and wrapped up and you become very introspective and sometimes you, you become very sensitive.
Chris Gazdik: Introspective and it may be internalized. Internalized, yeah. Think about these questions, right? Understand shame based feelings. Again, we’ve talked about that on our show recently. But, you know, that’s a big part of this when hurt by others. And understanding blame and how that [00:05:00] operates with you and the person or event that hurt you.
And understand what leads to hurt feelings and emotional pain. Emotional pain is a real thing. And, and I know you know that out there, you know with, with, with multiple events in your life, more than likely, and, and how to manage this experience. These are the things that we, you know, we kind of want to, want to get to.
We, we talk about things, John, in, The show, like through a therapist size, these things really happen in our office. It’s, it’s by design. I mean, I’m experiencing things. I’m gonna tell you, I didn’t plan it, but like literally today or was it yesterday? I was talking with somebody, I’m like, Oh my God, I did not do the show thinking of you.
But you know, it was, it was really palpable that, you know, he had been experiencing hurt and was managing that, that pain that came from that, that had stuck with them for a long time and didn’t even realize it. It was, it was really remarkable. I mean, [00:06:00]
John-Nelson Pope: so in other words, like the, he, he was able to say, ah, hi, had that aha moment, right?
And literally the scales fell from his eyes. He was able to see that he was carrying this hurt and didn’t
Chris Gazdik: know it. Thankfully he’s under 20. So it hadn’t been that long in life, but let me tell you something y’all know out there, we can have a hurt experience that really sticks in our, our spirit for. For a long time, years and years and years until we, we deal with that, resolve that, let that out, let that go.
Then it’s the source of what you’re experiencing is, is, is lifted. But if it doesn’t lift, the source continues to create that emotional pain because of the hurt causing behavior. Causing reactions maladaptively, probably, and the source just remains and it repeats over and over and over again. Like how long can people john that you’ve seen deal with hurt [00:07:00] that they’ve experienced?
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, forever. I mean, basically, yeah, I was just, you, you kind of stimulated my thinking a little bit there because I was, I was thinking that that In some ways, hurt is, is, is sort of a lesser type of PTSD because you keep replaying the same script over and over again. Oh, I like that. Yeah. And you can’t let go.
And again, it would show that everything is internalized and bound up. So you, you can’t, you’re not free. To, to be able to interact is without some sort of constraint on you
Chris Gazdik: as a person. You know, it’s really, you’re, that’s neat. I didn’t anticipate that, but you’re right. I mean, we talk about PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
And I like to highlight a lot of times people don’t really know. There’s like a PTSD light, which is acute stress disorder. Right, [00:08:00] right, right. Well, even under that is the much more common experience. You might even say the drama that we have in life and the drama that we play out as a result in our life that can be chronic, like, like
John-Nelson Pope: this time is to depression.
Right,
Chris Gazdik: right. Of course, that’s a clinical term and dysthymia can be like depression, light, low grade, lower grade, but chronic, the chronic point that I’m trying to get at here is the chronicity, right? The chronicity of how this operates with people. And the thing that sucks is like this young man that I was working with that we identified not even knowing that that’s what was driving, you know, the various experiences that he was having with You know, anger and relationships and anxiety and irritability, that sort of stuff.
There are sources for that, and in therapy you get an opportunity to look at like, well, what are those sources? And sometimes, often times, do we even go further, John, than often times? It’s, it’s the sources [00:09:00] being, having been heard. Mm hmm. Yeah, do we go further than often and say when you have that maybe it’s I mean almost dang near a hundred percent of the Time probably related to some sort of hurt.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Oh, I would I would agree on that You think so
Chris Gazdik: definitely because that feels like a strong statement that I’m toying with in my mind Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: No, that sounds, that sounds reasonable. I think it’s, it’s pretty operative for, for people if they’re carrying this hurt all the time or something that happened to them, it’s, it’s, it’s on the surface, there’s
Chris Gazdik: some sort of emotional injury,
John-Nelson Pope: injury and it, and it, and they, it, they’re wearing it.
It’s a part of your part of your experience. Yeah. And so everything gets interpreted that way as well.
Chris Gazdik: Right. Our psychology incorporates that into our perspective and our thinking process and embeds itself into our self talk. And, you know, that can be [00:10:00] in the form of even, you know, self loathing and things like that.
Insecurity,
John-Nelson Pope: can’t even look at a mirror. For example, sometimes body image, dysmorphia, that, that sort of thing. You know,
Chris Gazdik: I was kind of surprised. Is that the right word? You know, I had a, an experience with a friend of mine in college, right. And she was just seething. I don’t think is too much of a word.
A different friend of mine who was actually my best friend in high school, stood this girl up in, on a date. Right? Right. And several years later in college, I knew her. I didn’t know him as much anymore, but man, that stuck in her John man. I mean, Uhhuh , it, it really put into her spirit or her art was like, he stood me up and it, it, it stayed.
She was hurt. She was hurt. Yeah. She was hurt. And that did,
John-Nelson Pope: and that. That affected negatively her relationships with other
Chris Gazdik: [00:11:00] people. It did. We were, yeah, we were actually roommates. Me and her and, and, and ultimately.
John-Nelson Pope: Was that three, is that three company? Three’s
Chris Gazdik: company? Yeah. You know what? I guess so, John.
I never really thought of myself as the three’s company guy, but I was definitely the the third wheel in that deal. I never felt that way. As a matter of fact, like, you know, well, you
John-Nelson Pope: do look a little bit like John Ritter.
Chris Gazdik: The late, great John Ritter, great John Ritter. I’ve never been told that job before, John.
That’s interesting. Well, let’s, let’s dive into a little bit of the, the, what types of things are we really talking about? Like, let’s, let’s needle in a little bit to like, when we talk about people being hurt. Let’s, let’s identify with some level of specificity, right? Like, what types of things do we see in, in our therapy office?
I mean, I generated a little list of an idea, but what say you is with some of the things that like that example with her [00:12:00] being stood up. I mean, that’s a simpler one, but
John-Nelson Pope: I would say something maybe And, and I’ve seen a little bit more of this lately, I guess, post pandemic is where marriages are breaking up and and in this case, it seems like the men that I’ve been seeing have actually it’s been the wives that have been unfaithful and, or their partners and particularly with men.
Yeah. It seems to be that real sense of, of being ashamed that this happened or that they were hurt or what did they do that was wrong or which is our
Chris Gazdik: primary question or point. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And so I’ve seen a bit more of that lately.
Chris Gazdik: Interesting. Yeah. I’ll have to pay attention. I haven’t. I haven’t noticed that yet, just because it doesn’t feel new, unfortunately.
No, no. Yeah. I don’t know [00:13:00] how new it feels to me, but I misspoke or want to go back and say, actually, before we look at like what actually types of things do hurt, what is, what does it mean to be hurt? Let’s hit that before we get some specificity on what types of things are we talking about that lead to hurt.
But when you say, Oh my God, I feel hurt. What does that really mean to us? What does that mean to you out there to think about that? You know, you’ve been hurt with some sort of event, but what do you mean when you say to
yourself, will you hurt me? What does that mean? What are we experiencing? You know what I mean?
Yeah. Like, it’s not necessarily depression. It’s, it’s not… Well, can
John-Nelson Pope: it be an insult to one’s self concept?
Chris Gazdik: Go with that,
John-Nelson Pope: for sure. Yeah, I’m, I’m thinking in terms of hurt is the, there’s an aspect of humiliation. There’s a sense of, well… Like in, in high school, [00:14:00] for example, or junior high, there’s a lot of times people are made fun of by their appearance or they, they’ve had
Chris Gazdik: many turmoil in gym class, right?
Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Gym class. You’re not as athletic or let’s say you, again, you had the body image issues you got you’re not popular or somebody makes fun of you.
Chris Gazdik: You’re not athletic. Somebody’s more athletic than you. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And so you’re very competitive. Yeah. So there, there’s that aspect and I think as you get a little bit older, it is like, like you said, the, the, the girl that was stood up, the, the friend that, that she suffered with that and she continued holding onto it over the years and that kind of perhaps confirmed to reconfirmed that she was somehow.
Chris Gazdik: Less or even created a different self image, right?
John-Nelson Pope: And it became a negative self image overall. [00:15:00]
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, yeah, I think we’re touching on the area of broken heart. Yeah, you know, we’ve talked about that on the show before with even something called a broken heart syndrome, which is a real thing. It is. A hurt that is a definition of what you might be experiencing.
I want to do this and spend a little more time on it just because I think people have a hard time articulating or even self thinking about what I even mean when
I’m hurt. So your self image, your, your, your concept of self is affected. You get this experience of a broken heart and that The pain that’s there, but you’re
John-Nelson Pope: insufficient.
That was the other thing is that somehow you’re incomplete, that there was a point where you were more complete. And once you had this hurt you’re not whole anymore. I think in terms of, of and that can’t be restored. Doesn’t feel like it could be restored. It doesn’t feel like it could be restored.
Chris Gazdik: But it [00:16:00] can.
John-Nelson Pope: But it can. Lord of the Rings. Frodo had to bear the ring. Okay. Alright. He He was affected so negatively by that ring even though he remained pure he still Could feel like he never belonged anymore and could not be whole.
Chris Gazdik: That’s really powerful I hope I hope you’ve watched the Lord of the Rings you who’s listening because that was a very powerful emotional Movie what was Frodo’s?
Companion. Do you remember his name? Sam Goodwise, Sam, man, he was, I really was touched in the heart by watching the particular, whichever one, like the second or third one where their friendship was, was really. Examined and Frodo struggled as you just explained and thus doubted and distrusted [00:17:00] his ever so loyal companion and dear friend Sam, but Sam did not give up and Sam stayed with him to
John-Nelson Pope: me.
He sound. In one way I identified more with Sam because he was faithful always.
Chris Gazdik: I did too. Yeah, I did too. It was a powerful depiction of friendship to me and staying with somebody who’s struggling. That, that, Oh God, I love that. Boy, I could just, I could just stay there all day. I, as a matter of fact, we need to talk about friendship on the show a little bit more.
We, we have not done that a lot. Hey, look out for that next month. Cause I think that’s common. It’s a, it’s a powerful antidote to.
John-Nelson Pope: Being hurt, I think a little more. So we’re gonna talk about friendship greater than what’s on Friends . Yeah, that
Chris Gazdik: definitely it won’t be, that’s on the TV show. It won’t be in line of of friends.
So we’ve hit a couple of these things on, on what it really means to feel hurt. We mi missed one so far, I think a big one, which is [00:18:00] betrayal. Right. That’s a, that’s a stab. Oh yeah. It’s a stab and it goes much beyond broken heart, you know. If Sam were betray, betraying a Frodo that, that would have been, but he didn’t, he did not.
Yeah. But if he did, that’s, that hits the man that, that hits. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, what’s it’s perfect. To me is you get stabbed in the back. Oh, God. Yeah. See that something very visceral that happens like that. You get stabbed in the back. You’re not expecting it. It comes and it, it, it catches you completely off guard and it destroys what, what you think trust and what you think is real or not real.
Perception. Perception. And it, and so it’s hard to come back from that. [00:19:00]
Chris Gazdik: And what’s sad about these things, I mean. But you can. You can, and what’s funny is, how many people… Of you listening out there have not experienced the betrayal or a broken heart or these types of things I mean, but as we go along talking about this have you recovered right and have you identified your behavior or your experience now as something a part of the hurt you experienced 35 years ago or right even longer or maybe five years ago or Maybe last month because hurts do pile up a little bit.
Don’t know
John-Nelson Pope: how many How many girlfriends and I’m just, because you seem like you’d been very popular.
Chris Gazdik: Well, thank you. Not until college, even then, like, no, I don’t know. But,
John-Nelson Pope: but how many, how many times did you have your heart broken?
Chris Gazdik: I probably a couple few times, I, I might say. I mean, [00:20:00] you know, it, it, it, it struck me hard.
I’m, I’m going to say maybe two or three times. Not, not once, yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: more than once, more than once, more than twice, but, but it does rattle you, doesn’t it? It kind of shakes your foundations a little bit.
Chris Gazdik: Shaking the foundation is a good way of looking at it. You know we, we work with many people that have gone through, you know, divorce and to get back into the dating scene and get back into the saddle is just a thing.
I cannot imagine that. No, I know, right? I, God willing, knock on wood, you know, I hope that that never happens to me because it is such a, I mean, that’s such an earth shattering experience to go through, you know, that type of hurt. I don’t
John-Nelson Pope: think I could do Silver Seniors very well. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: what is Silver Seniors?
For those of us that don’t know, what would that be? No, it’s
John-Nelson Pope: just commercials. It’s just, got a question for you Chris, is if [00:21:00] you, if you’ve gotten humiliated or if you had something that happened to you and maybe you want to get into this a little bit further, is that have you ever had an experience where like an employment or or professionally that somebody did just the op did something to you that you did not expect?
And it might have cost you business, a clients or
Chris Gazdik: a relationship. Yeah, it’s a simple one. I’m going back to that. I’ve actually talked about on the show before. I mean, it was, it was funny that it definitely still sticks in my crawl today. I, I was in college and I was wanting to hit on a girl. So I remember Neil, I talked about this before where you know, went out on the dance floor and I don’t know, I got no rhythm.
I’m white. Boy from West Virginia, right? You know, but I clogged, I don’t even know that I could call it clogging, man. I just, I just went out there and moved and struck out, got, got, got the denial, how, how, how boys experienced the denial. And, [00:22:00] and I, I, I was fine. I went back and went to my, my table where my buddy was hanging.
John, he looked at me and he made eye contact in the most solemn and clear voice. He said, Chris. Don’t ever do that again.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, it
Chris Gazdik: was that bad. It was that bad. Well, to this day, I’m not big on dancing, man. You don’t, I don’t, I don’t like it. It’s not my. expression of choice. And so I can let go of that. I, I can, I can dance, I guess. But, but you know, that, that was a simple little like bang upside my head, man. I mean, he’s like, Matt did that, you know, can I say Matt hurt me?
No, you know, and, and even, even simple things like that. So it was
John-Nelson Pope: a, it was a double a double shot in the gut because the
Chris Gazdik: girl denied me, my boy crushed me. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So what types [00:23:00] of things, John, do you think life events that really, that really create this? We’ve mentioned a few, but I think there are really big, bigger ones that people experience, you know, the higher drama.
Kind of realities and the one that really sticks in my mind, you know I really very much for all you therapists that don’t know much about substance abuse Issues I really advocate for getting training on that and learning about alcohol and drug related problems No more of this. I do mental health and I don’t do substance abuse services.
I I Rejected that I really do. I don’t know how you feel about it John, but no, I
John-Nelson Pope: agree Yeah, I mean, I think it’s I think It creates a blind spot, right? Because if you’re not, because I think if you dig deep enough, you’re going to find that a lot of, of the mental health issues that we deal with are hurts, are hurts
Chris Gazdik: from chemically dependent families.
Yeah. One of the. big areas when you, when you grow up and I [00:24:00] find out in therapy and work with you and we stumble upon the idea that you had a primary parent, particularly that had any kind of alcohol or drug related problem, John, the hurts are profound and chronic and many in that person. I don’t even
John-Nelson Pope: have to just be physical.
It could be
Chris Gazdik: more emotional. It’s more emotional than anything. And, and it’s just a, in a plethora of ways. I mean, anybody for instance that knows anything about chemically dependent families, the kids know they don’t have anybody
come to their house. They go to other people’s houses. The shame and the feelings that are there, you know, of not knowing what to expect on any given night when, when mommy’s coming home from work.
You know, am I going to find her on the couch? Am I, is she, is there going to be some… Explosion or is it going to be a calm night? I never have any idea. The predictability is gone. And, and I could just go on and on, but, you know, I mean, you know, chemically dependent families, right? Like that’s an area where you get massive hurts.
[00:25:00] And I,
John-Nelson Pope: I think when you, let’s say you’re seven, eight, and this is where the development of shame is actually a little bit earlier with, with, if you’re a Friday and I’m Freudian, excuse me. Yeah. I was a Friday and slip. That’s all
Chris Gazdik: right. But
John-Nelson Pope: when you’re. You, you start developing shame and guilt and you, you start taking on mom’s behavior or misbehavior or dad’s misbehavior or, or the problems or the yelling and not knowing where you’re or the denigration of, of who you are as a, as a kid.
You start to internalize that and you carry that hurt with you. Oh, forever. And don’t even know it. Don’t even know it. And I think that’s when you were talking,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. Yeah. Like you’ll make the claim like, oh, well that was when I was a kid. I’m all grown up now and that doesn’t, that stuff just doesn’t bother.
And you
John-Nelson Pope: can be, so denial’s not just for the chemically dependent person. Denial is for the children of chemically [00:26:00] dependent. And
Chris Gazdik: the denial. Defined as not being able to see what is there. It’s not denying that there’s something there. It’s, I can’t see it. I’m blind. As you say, the scales were lifted from my guy’s eyes, you know, this morning.
Identifying that that’s actually what’s bothering him and he didn’t know it. Having really critical parents, right, or a really critical spouse that’s chronically
just undermining you. This is, this is a powerful, powerful source of, of hurt. We mentioned betrayals, I mean, with affairs, of course how about just lying?
You know there are people that have a level of dishonesty about them, and it’s, I, I’ve had, I just had a clinical session just two days ago, where the whole session was dealing with the challenge that he felt, the anger, the hurt, ultimately, right, because [00:27:00] hurt comes out with anger, right, anger is really about something underneath, and his wife lied to him, and he’s like, why would you lie about something, Stu, I don’t understand why you were, right.
Telling me something that is not true fundamentally. Oh,
John-Nelson Pope: it’s I, I see that a lot of couples counseling is the sense that a spouse lies and does so. And the person is absolutely again, take blindsided by it or. And again, it was there all along, he just never saw
Chris Gazdik: it. Never noticed it. Never noticed it. Just coped with it.
Just endured with it. You know, I got a book on my shelf that says, you know, when parents hurt, how about the chronicity of life experience with having really, unbeknownst to the kid and not really being purposeful, but a really disobedient child. [00:28:00] How much do parents hurt when their children are struggling with outlandish behavior you know, we might call it oppositional defiance.
You ever hear that diagnostic with with kids? Well, that really hurts the parent not doing a good job. I’m a terrible parent. I’m inadequate in some way. I’m I’m
John-Nelson Pope: not whole. What have you done? I, I known a parent who was nearly pushed down the stairs by the, by the child. And 20 years later, that child is still blaming the parents for, because the child had to be institutionalized for a while.
Really? Hospitalized.
Chris Gazdik: Right.
John-Nelson Pope: For a month. And and now I’m not. Still blames. And still blames the
Chris Gazdik: parent. Well there’s a word. There’s a word. Blame. Yeah. It’s an important word. But the
John-Nelson Pope: parent has had to deal with that guilt and that shame of having to do that for the, for the health of the child. The child got better, [00:29:00] improved, but at the same time still has that resentment.
Chris Gazdik: So some of the reactions from all this stuff, we, we, we highlighted a little bit, but… Decreasing self esteem, self loathing, negative self talk, internalization. Like, I think we identified intrinsically where this stuff really kind of leads to. So, let’s touch very briefly on shame and then let’s go a little bit further with The blame game that happens.
So episode two 37, if you listen to this, when you probably really want to check out, cause we, we did we did it, we did a lot. I mean, it was shame on medical conditions, if I remember correctly, but, but we really laid out what shame is, how it works, how it operates in the operational reality in your behavior, attitude, and all those types of things.
Fundamentally, I did something wrong. I’m not enough. That’s kind of. The way shame works and, you know, the, the social media impacts we talked about. And I, I, I highlighted something that actually comes from substance abuse families, the no talk [00:30:00] rules. Do you see that very often and try to break those rules that people come to us with?
You know what I’m talking about? No. Would you explain that a little bit? The, the no talk rules is a classic substance abuse family thing. You learn, of course, right? Right. They don’t talk about this. Right. We don’t talk about it. It’s a rule. And if you break the rule, you get reminded that the rule’s in place.
I think that happens with things that hurt us. I think culturally, particularly in man world, but I don’t think that’s a gender thing at all. I feel like we learn when somebody hurt you, you’re supposed to be tough. You put a bunch of big girl pants on, suck it up, stiff upper lip, machismo. It’s in multiple cultures and our cowboy mentality in the states, you know, we want to be bigger than allowing somebody to hurt us.
And so when we’re hurt. Culturally, we can’t admit it John. Yeah, and [00:31:00] and or you
John-Nelson Pope: could see it as a sign of weakness
Chris Gazdik: So so so if you’re not wanting to be weak You can’t admit it and if you can’t talk about it acknowledge it and admit it guess what happens to it Y’all know out there what happens to it. It just stays in you.
Mm hmm and it grows gross multiplies, expands. It’s like spiderwebs out all because we’ve all bought into this no talk rule.
John-Nelson Pope: But the pernicious imagery that you’re saying, I mean, to me, it just gets this idea of something sinister.
Chris Gazdik: Well, it is sinister, John, isn’t it? I think there is a sinisterness to it.
Now, you know, when we talk about, it’s not your fault. These are natural phenomenon that happen and particularly after the, the meanness or whatever was going on, criticalness, the betrayal, the whatever, the person generally can, can we say this with the idea that it’s not your fault. A lot of this [00:32:00] stuff is not really intended.
This occurs to me in our conversation. Do you, do you feel like, Do people intend to hurt other people?
John-Nelson Pope: Depends. Okay. Okay, go. A lot of biblical imagery of people that have intended harm. Okay. For example with the Jewish people, with Joseph’s brothers, for example, I think if you remember, he was he was, he.
He said things to the brothers that they didn’t want to hear because he felt like he was the younger youngest child at the time, or one, or a favorite child. And his brothers put him in a pit. And they said he was, and he told their father that he had been killed because Jogert Joseph was a braggart.
And so he was sold into slavery into Egypt. Okay. He, it wasn’t his fault, but he got, you know, it [00:33:00] was intended for evil. And Joseph says when he reconciles with his family, it’s a couple of decades later, the, the, he said, you intended this for evil, but God intended it for good. Okay. So you don’t have to agree with me.
It’s just
Chris Gazdik: well, you’ve got me really pondering. Got a lot
John-Nelson Pope: moving around. Pinky, are you pondering what I’m pondering?
Chris Gazdik: Pinky,
John-Nelson Pope: Pinky. Pinky in
Chris Gazdik: the brain. Pinky in the brain. Listen, I think I want to maintain that even when those types of scenarios are going on, the Palestinian Israeli conflict over the many eons And in centuries, the the, the, the Chinese onslaught with Gangus Kon , I mean, there are evil people, you know, Hitler, you know, arguably for some at the top of the list.
I mean, there, there, I want to, I want to stay away [00:34:00] from the obvious like forces of evil, but even in those circumstances and when people are behaving badly, like I love the phrase hurt people, hurt people, I submit that there’s really. A lack of intention when somebody is even lying to you, they’re fearful of upsetting you or some psychological rationalization that’s going on, right?
I do
John-Nelson Pope: agree with you on that. I was, I was just saying that we do, well, you can’t make a blanket statement, I think so. Probably so. But. In most cases, people aren’t intending to, to be jerks, you know, they’re they’re carrying their own hurt. And like you said, hurt people
Chris Gazdik: hurt. Well, just, just consider depression for instance, right?
I mean, somebody that’s depressed, you gotta understand their, their experience is I’m hurting every day. I don’t have energy. [00:35:00] I don’t have motivation. I don’t have an appetite. My sex drive is gone. I’m sorry, baby. I don’t want to have sex with you. I’m not trying to be hurtful to you, but my irritability levels are so high.
It’s a part of experiencing the desperate feeling that you feel when you’re depressed. And can we say that depressed people hurt people in their lives%
You know, and, and, and I think that, so we move from the idea of shame and we, we, we’re getting into the idea here of who’s to blame when you’re hurt. Hopefully you can get the tag of this title of this show that when you’re hurt by others, you are not to blame. Cool. It’s a real challenging to think then.
Well, is to blame the person who hurt you. I mean, we can get in the weeds, but how about the person that hurt them? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Chris, have you ever been hurt like that? [00:36:00]
Chris Gazdik: Been hurt many
John-Nelson Pope: ways. Yes. All right. Let me, let me give you a very quick and dirty. I was at a church about 20 years ago and I was I was courted by the church made trips there.
It was beautiful. It’s a beautiful congregation, seemed like it was, it was a step up for me, supposedly, if you’re going to, if you’re going to be a big steeple chaser kind of guy that I was
Chris Gazdik: back in those days. So this was a big deal. It was a big deal. It was a step up in life. So
John-Nelson Pope: I go to this church and it’s halfway across the, the country and the kids go there, we go there.
And I’m there, but a week and my secretary quit and she said, this is not a good place. Yeah. She said, you don’t want to stay here. And so warning shot across the back. Yeah. It was almost like a Gothic tale. Okay. Well. Found out [00:37:00] that essentially that there were a lot of good people there that were hurting and one of the things was that there was a lot of discord and there was a sense that the church wanted to leave the denomination and most of them did and They had the idea that I wasn’t gonna That I was somebody that was a team player.
I was basically I, I was not going to take the church out, but instead of talking about that to me, they found fault with me and my wife and my children. Oh, and what was really, really difficult is that eventually I did leave, but we had to go through a whole process of reconciliation. I was so angry with them.
You heard it, my voice very angry with them and hurt by them and felt betrayed just right between the shoulder blades, right? Because they said things about my children. Oh boy. Yeah. [00:38:00] And it was hard for me to let go. But now one of the reasons why I went into full time counseling was because of that church.
Gotcha. Because of that. So. The healing and it still affected my kids years later, but we’re we’ve gotten and learned how to let go and forgive and then I can see the motives of the people that that were there. They were hurting people. They were scared. They didn’t know.
Chris Gazdik: And so that’s the cool thing, the motives of the people and, and, and dealing with the issues of blame and being careful about really being stuck in the blaming of those people.
John-Nelson Pope: If I had stayed stuck in the blaming of those people, I would be a mess and I would. You know, possibly substance use disorder for me or something. I don’t
Chris Gazdik: know. Well, listen, I can, I can, I was listening to you and thinking like, you know, you asked me that and, and, and I’m [00:39:00] like, well, yeah, in many ways, but I mean, you know, being a product of a divorced family for me, you know, was very profoundly painful and I can interpret as, as an emotional injury that, that has been a lifetime of me with a journey.
To get into a place of peace
John-Nelson Pope: would you say that you’re a better person now as
Chris Gazdik: a result isn’t that the rub, right? You know when you’re hurting you heal you’re stronger. Yeah Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: that which does not kill me makes me stronger. There’s
Chris Gazdik: a phrase and dang gum. Is it is it true?
John-Nelson Pope: For for many people. Yes for many people
Chris Gazdik: gotta say.
Yeah. Well, I think you gotta say yes I mean, you certainly have an opportunity to heal, and if that hasn’t happened for you today, listening to this, to your major hurt, your church, your family’s divorce, or your life experiences, it can, it can.
John-Nelson Pope: The, the thing that came to me was when I felt [00:40:00] like I didn’t know what I was, what I was being blamed for.
And it was at a session meeting, which is the church board of vestry and one of the elders came up to me and which is like a deacon in the Baptist church or something like that and pointed me right at the face and said, you’re arrogant. And I’m going, John Pope is arrogant.
Chris Gazdik: I can attest to you, if you were, you aren’t, and never could be, I can’t see it.
John-Nelson Pope: I had to, and there, the, the thing I was arrogant in, in reflection was, I was self righteous. Because I felt like I was under so much. So
much scrutiny and all of that and I felt like I was, I was, I was above it, above it. I was going to be victorious and all that. And the thing was, I had to, [00:41:00] there was a sense that I’ve, I felt like I, I kind of entered into a contract of wanting to have real humility and not a manufactured one.
Oh boy.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a big statement. So yeah, you know, these hurts that we experienced definitely knock you down on your knees. I don’t know anybody that hasn’t likely been knocked down. It’s like, you know, what do you do with that? And, and, and people do get into stuck spots with that hurt and have that hurt source repetuate over and over again, or.
You, you turn into something like true humility or learn patience or really get into forgiveness. And now we’re touching on some of the things that we want to do to recover from her.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, so maybe I misunderstood but when, when hurt by others, it’s not my fault. Well, yeah, it’s not your fault, but at the same time you have a great [00:42:00] opportunity to grow.
Yeah. It
Chris Gazdik: sucks. It does suck, man. I mean, you know, wouldn’t it be nice if we could do the whole growing thing and not have the hurt part? Yeah. John, I’m just tired of hurting, man. You know? Yeah. It, it, it, it. It wears you out and, and challenges you, but that is the way you grow, right? Yeah. No pain, no gain.
Right. You know, relationships are kind of like a, a plant, they’re not staying the same ever. Mm hmm. I love the, the notion that they’re either growing or dying. Mm hmm. In one direction or the other and it’s, it goes back and forth sometimes too. But it’s not staying the same. There’s, there’s a iron sharpens iron, man.
I mean, those sparks are flying. There’s so many ways that we, we can, we can conceptualize it. Stop being so
John-Nelson Pope: good [00:43:00] to me, Lord.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that’ll, that’ll really stop you in your tracks if, if you get, if you get in with that, that, that, that, that space and you know, it drives me nuts, right? People talk about, you know, revel and take joy in your sorrow, like that one there, I’ve never really been able to,
John-Nelson Pope: well, I hadn’t either.
And when I, and I think sometimes that’s kind of not sounded true to me because the people are genuine. Genuine. Yeah, genuine is a better word in a sense, because I don’t know if they had lived it. And I think, I think you have to, it’s like that great Billy Joel song pressure. You’ve got to see this, the, the lines and the scars on your face, you know, you gotta have that pressure a little bit and having lived it too.
Chris Gazdik: It’s funny. It just makes me swerve a little bit [00:44:00] because it is. I mean, you know, you, you, you, thank you for sharing, you know, what happened with the church and, you know, there, there’s, there, there are usually multiple points of pain, you know, divorce and, and various challenges with, with marriage. And, you know, sometimes I felt like the worst parent in the world, you know.
We,
John-Nelson Pope: we, we did a study of the church, by the way, just sort of that church or that church. That was the, that was the thing of this post study
Chris Gazdik: post.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah. Well, who’s we, we was the presbytery and I mean, so we had a reconciling group that came on on board. Oh boy. It had happened. That church was damaged in the fifties.
And they had carried it from generation to generation to generation. You see that with alcoholism or substance use disorder, you get to be people, you could be affected and behaving from things that happened. And this is where it’s not your [00:45:00] fault. You inherited that from three or four generations ago.
Yeah. And you carry that. And the thing is, is that life is demanding and asking for you now is to heal. And it’s your opportunity to do that and not to carry the hurt and pain to the next
Chris Gazdik: generation. John, even, even larger scale than that. I think that happens for cultures and societies. You know, in, in, in and around the world, we like to think we were the worst of it in the States in our arrogant attitude, I’d say, but in and around the world, you know, the issues of intergenerational pain from slavery, you know, or, or certainly the Jewish.
Folks that have just been persecuted and intergenerational pain is mm-hmm. Intergenerational hurt. That’s a thing, isn’t it? Mm-hmm. . And, and, and it is an opportunity that you have to turn from that and, [00:46:00] and, and manage that pain in a different way so that it doesn’t continue to perpetuate. When I
John-Nelson Pope: was in chaplain school, way back when we had, we went to school as to learn how to be officers and gentlemen and all of that, we had to, and the chaplains had to run chapel and we had Jewish chaplains and we had Protestant chaplains and Catholic chaplains.
Well, interestingly enough, the, the very conservative Lutherans ran wanted to introduce us to some of their, their worship. Aspects of it. One of the, the, the chaplains, a very conservative one chose glorious things of the of spoken. Well, that is the same song that it’s Dutchland over all us, Dutchland over Germany overall.
And the Jewish chaplains were greatly offended by that. And so we had to [00:47:00] have a coming of minds and sharing instead of being hostile to each other. There was a a sharing and reconciliation of hearts and minds and to understand that, that there was that history of antisemitism that had affected Lutheran church, German church
Chris Gazdik: and it was playing into all of that.
Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And these guys were kind of innocent of it. They didn’t know, but then they learned.
Chris Gazdik: So I’m finding myself just wanting to listen to you honestly, you know, cause there’s
John-Nelson Pope: And your son will be able to work in this. Yes,
Chris Gazdik: he will. I’m very, yes. My son is joining the Navy. I’m a stupid, proud father. The only way to go.
The only way to go. Forged by the sea, young man. That’s exactly right. Right? That’s exactly right. I love that you’re a Navy guy too, John. That’s that’s, that’s pretty cool. Yeah, he will be forged by the sea soon enough. Powerful [00:48:00] stuff really and truly. And, and this, this idea of reconciliation, this idea of, you know, understanding the other and, and meeting of the minds.
And there’s just so much healing in that, you know? So this gets us to like, yeah. You know, what do we do to recover? What do we do when we get knocked down? You know, do we have to wait many years or can we do this immediate? What’s the time frame? What’s the process, John? What comes to your mind more so when we’re talking about what do you do when somebody hurts you?
If you’re not going to be in shame and you’re not going to blame, you know, what do we do? I
John-Nelson Pope: think it’s a process. I think, I think you might be able to on one level forgive and let’s say that, and also have some self acceptance and, and then, you know, something else comes back up again or another hurt or another aspect of feeling of, [00:49:00] of saying, and, and you have to reexperience that, but you you I think over a period of time that you let go of the hurt,
Chris Gazdik: I think that really what comes to mind first.
I mean, it was first on my brainstorm when I was thinking through this, the challenge is forgiving and that’s a genuine forgiving to, we’re not talking about just like a superficial surface level, kind of all right, you know if this offended you, right, you know, and, and also I think that, The tags right along with that, that people really miss John is the need to repeat that process.
Yeah. I don’t think if you’ve had a hurt as simple and mild as it may be even, but certainly when you’ve had like, you know, some of these hurts we’ve talked about, like I’m not going to forgive my mom and dad and the whole divorce situation and be done with it. And usually it’s not a one and done. Can we say that [00:50:00] now?
You said process. It is a process. It’s it’s a it’s a leveling. You forgive for the first time on the simplest level. Great, great step. Yeah, I got you got a deeper step to make and and it might resurface and you and you forgive again and again. If
John-Nelson Pope: it’s worth obtaining. You have to sometimes have to work at it and, and just instead of stuffing stuff is to actually be able to uncover, let’s say the wound, it continues to fester and some, and, but each time you, you, you, let’s say you debride it or whatever, it’s not, it’s not reveling in, in the wound or anything, but but.
The only way that a wound can heal is to, that sometimes you have to debride it and sometimes you have to go ahead and, and, and each time it gets a little bit better and gets a little bit better. And I think that [00:51:00] that’s why we’re
given long lives. I’ve always said that we’re given long lives so that we can learn to love and to accept and to really love deeply.
And I think it’s just, as I’m coming into this stage of my life, I’m beginning to see what. Forgiveness is about right. I thought I had it when I was a 26 year old well, you taught it, right? I taught it. Yeah. I taught it for many, many
Chris Gazdik: years. Yeah. You know, in having done therapy for 20, 30 years, whatever it’s been for me.
I mean, you think you get it, you got it, you don’t. You don’t just I don’t I don’t
John-Nelson Pope: we’re learning we’re learning and I think that’s the good word is we’re becoming
Chris Gazdik: That is a good word because that in that process of continuing to evolve, you know I I hate that idea. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks because I think you you’re right I mean me in midlife you’re in a Later stage.
I’m in a mature. You’re in a mature stage stage, you know that [00:52:00] Maybe you’re a fast learner when you’re a young person, but if, if you have, there’s a whole lot more to learn and I’ve learned that, you know the idea of, of, of accepting yourself, even, you know, when you’re hurt by others, you really struggle with it.
I keep running into
John-Nelson Pope: that stupid pothole over and over again.
Chris Gazdik: You’ve mentioned that before. Go further with that once again. No, no, you just,
John-Nelson Pope: you finally learn to you learn your lesson eventually. And you don’t keep, there’s a point where you start to find it. It dawns on you that you don’t have to do the same stupid thing over and over again.
I think that’s the term for insanity,
Chris Gazdik: isn’t it? Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Yeah. Yeah, I think that comes from the AA program, if I’m correct. Yeah, you know, you stub your foot and you wonder what I’m doing. You stub your foot again, you wonder what you’re doing.
It’s kind of like, why am I [00:53:00] walking in the same space every day? We’re not
John-Nelson Pope: Wile E.
Chris Gazdik: Coyote. We are not. No. We don’t have to be that way. No. Pay attention. to yourself. Pay attention to what you’re feeling. You know, you mentioned stuffing it. I think one of the damning things about this is trying to internalize this stuff, put the stiff upper lip and ignore, you know, the hurt that you have.
It don’t work. People, it doesn’t work. It’s going to come out some way. And usually, if it’s not coming out in a way of insight and genuine, you know, self awareness, it’s going to be coming out in nastiness. Isolation doesn’t work well. Paranoia. Anger, paranoia, delusions, perceptions, focus points, stuck spots.
It’s… Could be mess, could be a mess. So, you know, interesting, I think looking at [00:54:00] oneself in my how do we manage this section that we’re in now? I did a few shows that we’ve talked about recently, right? The, the shame show 237, mark that one down. Being careful of taking things personally. OMG, right? 221.
Mark that down because taking things personally is a lot of what we’re talking about when you’re blaming or shaming yourself or others. Dealing with failure, John, as we’ve touched on that in our conversation, episode two, 10. The, I’m charging the listening audience to check these things out, to wrap these things around in a way that you can heal what we’re about it through a therapist.
I was like, we, we work with this and you can work with this and you know, you feel like a failure when somebody hurt you, right?
John-Nelson Pope: Oh yeah. Tom Petty. Refugee.
Chris Gazdik: What is that [00:55:00] reference?
John-Nelson Pope: I need help. Well, you don’t have to live like a refugee. You’ve been, somebody has moved you around or bullied you around. You don’t have to be like that.
Chris Gazdik: You don’t have to. Did you hear it? I know the song. Now, you know, I, I, I’m, I’m guilty of not getting the words and the messages a lot of times with songs like that. Well, I’m so old. I’m just, no, it’s awesome. Don’t don’t apologize for that because it’s listen to the
John-Nelson Pope: song. Okay. Listen
Chris Gazdik: to the song. Yeah. Like, because people sing about this stuff.
People artistically paint about this stuff. We have Poetry, the Iliad, right? Right. There, there, there are powerful human experiences at play and you are not alone, sir. You are not alone, ma’am, in the pain, in the hurts that you are managing.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s why we have these stories that are arrest. Our attention is that they’re the human story.
They’re the
Chris Gazdik: human experience. Do you like you
John-Nelson Pope: said,
Chris Gazdik: right? Yeah. It’s the [00:56:00] human emotional experience. Let’s figure this out together. Like, that’s why there’s so many reasons why that that is so applicable. And, and, and sharing that shares hope, sharing that shares, creates potential for, for healing. And, and as you say, growth and
John-Nelson Pope: recovery.
And so, this is our common experience, and so there’s a sense of comfort, and the fact is that other people have been in that same situation as you are, if you’ve been hurt, or Everybody’s been hurt. And so you can gain wisdom vicariously from other people and you can learn from this and grow,
Chris Gazdik: you know, it’s funny.
You said that John, one of the, one of the, one of the super sustaining realities that I remember having, and it was just internal. It didn’t come from other places. [00:57:00] I honestly, I think I believe it came from, from, from God, God moment for me. I was, yeah. Observing my wife be pregnant and I’m a prospective new parent.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m Aren’t
Chris Gazdik: you? Yeah, john. I was freaking out bro. Like dude, I was I was so freaking out. I was so excited But so worried, like how am I going to do this?
I don’t know what to do with this. I, I am, I’ve got a huge responsibility that’s coming and I’m adjusting to figure out like, and I remember sitting in the grocery store, like how much are diapers?
How much are formula? The finances? And then you saw it and you went, Whoa, yeah, well, you know what occurred to me? Chris, thousands, no, tens of thousands, you know, scores of people before you have done this, you know, wait, wait, why are you freaking out about, about this awesome responsibility of, of a rear.
John-Nelson Pope: So there was comfort in the fact that others had come through
Chris Gazdik: that great [00:58:00] comfort.
I was not alone. I’m not the only person to face this. I know it was done successfully. Hell in my own life. It was done for me. So I think I could do this. It was really like it was besides it was
John-Nelson Pope: happening to your wife. Not you.
Chris Gazdik: Not to mention it. You don’t even have the hard part, bro. You got that. You got easy.
You got the easy half here. Yeah, yeah. You know, those stories and sharing is, you know. Listen, I’m involved in a Morgan James Publishing group that is an amazing group of authors that share their stories, that go through and we’ve had several on the show. That are, that are sharing their story. Listen, if you’ve got a story that you’ve been through, gone through, you will experience amazing healing by sharing that and give a gift to anyone that hears that story.
Is that a, is that a true statement? That’s a true
John-Nelson Pope: statement. That’ll, that’ll, that’ll [00:59:00] work. Right. That’s a
Chris Gazdik: good statement. I mean, and we even have whole, whole, you know, constructivism theory and therapy, right? You know, write your story, write your story out, share your story. Yeah. What’s your story? Write your story.
Share your story. Like your story. There’s a lot in a story. Yeah. It’s a whole lot of healing in a story.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. That’s one of the things that I’ve done in my life over a period of 50 years. And that is write my biography. Write it and write and share the story. It’s interesting that there’s some things that are very similar, but I’ve also seen an arc of growth, not, not because I’m some great guy or anything like that, but you are, but thank you.
But I’ve been able to learn and to be able to continue on, hopefully I will continue on
Chris Gazdik: doing, you know, one of the gifts. And we’ve talked about this. I think it’s been mentioned multiple times of being a therapist is [01:00:00] hearing people’s stories. Yeah. What an honor. Yeah. We said at the same time, what, what an honor and an experience to sit with people and be with people that become willing to allow us to see behind the veil into the, into the story, into the experience.
And it’s just such an awesome, unreplicatable. Position to be in. It just makes me so grateful.
John-Nelson Pope: They have, people have been doing this for thousands of years at campfires at the campsite. And being able to tell these stories and that the stories that other people have, they actually. Every time I listen to the story from a, from a client, I’m incorporating that and saying, okay, is there a bit of wisdom that I can take and share with someone else?
I mean, it’s a very humbling thing. Right.
Chris Gazdik: And, and does build on itself. So as much as the pain and the hurt can build on itself, hurt people, hurt people. [01:01:00] Ooh, wait a minute. I got something here. John hurt people, hurt people, healthy healing people heal others. Yeah. Oh, I like that. Right.
John-Nelson Pope: Growing people grow
Chris Gazdik: others.
Right. Yeah. Great. That went down, Neil. We got this, we got this, this theme, this theme phrase list that we have. Yeah. Because we say the
John-Nelson Pope: negative thing hurt people, hurt people,
Chris Gazdik: growing people, grow others. I love grow others. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. That’s a, that’s going to be on a t shirt. Sometime soon through a therapist’s eyes.
All right. Listen, what else we got real quick on, on this list that I kind of generated in my brainstorm forgiveness, letting go, being careful about taking things personally again, episode two 21 dealing with failure, you have a big opportunity to learn from mistakes, spent a lot of time in episode two.
Don’t forget about episode 237 when [01:02:00] we dealt with all of the mentality of shame and recovery from that. You know, good old emotion management. Embracing course corrections that I think we talked about. Communication, so that you’re not alone. Setting boundaries, managing relationships. I mean, These are the things that lead to healing.
These are the things that, you know, John, you, you shared doing in, in the church when you were hurt. You know, my, with the divorce and various other experiences, I wanted
John-Nelson Pope: nothing more than I wanted to do was to resign in and there and just go. And when the presbytery said, well, we want to work with you through this, and I’m saying, I don’t want to do this, but you know what?
It was the best thing in the world. I think it was the best thing for the people of the church, but also best for my family and me.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you’re living in a hurt spot, it is [01:03:00] easier to just be done in many ways. Right? Yeah. And a lot of people will do that than endure and then get to a place of reconciling within yourself and healing and, and the end result of that.
Is is worth it. It just doesn’t feel in the middle of it. No, though, man, when you’re
John-Nelson Pope: in it and 10 years ago I couldn’t have said that. I was still hurting from it. I still said, you know, I was Right. You know? Right. And, and you know, and I still think I was right for the most part. But then there was this sense that I was in it for a greater good, you know, and to do, do something that would help people grow.
That was the, that was the better thing. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. So let’s, let’s, let’s get out of here with the idea, guys. Listen, you know your hurt spot, whether you pay attention to it, whether [01:04:00] you’ve tried to forget it, whether you’ve tried to stuff it down, maybe cover it over with destructive behavior. Substance use disorder or promiscuity.
You, you know those hurts. Pay, pay attention to it. Look at it. Take the scales off your eyes like John said. Be with it and understand that it doesn’t end you or kill you. The, the pain that you feel with it is real and it, it feels like you want to stop and just… Change directions and get out of it, but when you go through it, my favorite life quote from Winston Churchill, When you’re going through hell, keep going.
And you get to a place of doing some of these things where you forgive, and you let go, and you heal, and you grow, And then you’re able to grow, grow others. I love that. Guys, I think this has been a great conversation. John, thanks for, for your wisdom. Truly.
John-Nelson Pope: Thank you for yours. [01:05:00] And thank you for Neil’s nimble
Chris Gazdik: fingers.
Neil’s nimble fingers with the back end of producing. Yes, absolutely. Guys, have a great week. Take care, be well, and we’ll see you soon.