When we look at the trajectory of marriage statistics, there is an obvious change in the millennial generation than there was in previous generations. The question we are asking is why? Are there commitment issues? Do they just have a fear of marriage?
We look at the stats to see what has been happening and we discuss the trends in society and why we think these numbers are changing.
Tune in to see Millennial Fear of Marriage Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Are you getting married soon???
- Do you have a timeline thought for kids???
- Who is “responsible” for the concerning drop in marriage or presumably the fear of commitment?
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Episode #258 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes. Welcome to yet another edition on January the 11th, 2000, and Happy New Year 24. Yay! This is going so fast, like, I feel like February is like tomorrow.
John-Nelson Pope: Valentine’s
Chris Gazdik: Day. Yeah, like, how do we slow this down?
John-Nelson Pope: I don’t know, I had a client that said he’s gonna be so busy between now and Valentine’s Day and he’s not gonna be able to be home for Valen for the day, on the 14th.
And he’s going to be out of town. His wife went ballistic, not happy
Chris Gazdik: camper, not a happy camp. Marital therapy next session. So listen, this is, this is contact that through a therapist sizes where you contact us to kind of interact with us with emails. We have Reed Ferguson. I haven’t talked about enough.
We, we thank him for [00:01:00] the, the entry show, song, I guess you’d call it. Music. The music, the jingle, the, yeah, he created that. And he is awesome. He’d love to come see you at your party, your event. R E I D T. F E R G U S O N. Calm. He is awesome. He’s got a great musician ability. And we also want to point out, First Horizon is still with us.
Pretty excited about them riding into the new year with us. 2024. What other business do we need to take care of? Oh Rating. The, oh, No, go ahead. Go with the
John-Nelson Pope: rating. Yeah, rating. We I, we asked for five stars on Apple or any other podcasts that that you might find that you prefer platform to be able to use and listen to,
Chris Gazdik: right?
We have merchandise. We need to get. You guys checking out the through therapist eyes. com merch button, a cool pillow. You’ll see on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah, I like
John-Nelson Pope: the eye. Now that’s kind of scary. You wake up.
Victoria Pendergrass: [00:02:00] Yeah, I told you, you need to I need, we need to get a shirt and then we can, when we go to the gym, we can wear them to the gym.
Free
Chris Gazdik: advertisement. I need to buy you guys some merch. We, we, we did figure out what happened. I’ll buy it myself. Our tumblers we’ll go through therapisteyes. com, the merch button and buy a dang I’m shirt. I think we could
John-Nelson Pope: all wear the t shirts and we go to the gym and it says the
Chris Gazdik: eyes have it. You have such dad jokes, brother.
John-Nelson Pope: Nicely done. I have a dad bod too.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I definitely am with you on the dad bod world. What other business do we need to take care of? I think. That doesn’t
Victoria Pendergrass: the fact that I did not idle because I don’t
Chris Gazdik: know. Right. I did not tell Miss Victoria what we’re even talking about. And that’s why I’m a little bit delayed in our response because I really wanted her to have a legitimate A genuine, full response to this show and you’ll understand when we get to the actual
Victoria Pendergrass: topic.
He even came into my office earlier today and said, Hey Victoria, you want to know what we’re talking about today? And I was like, yeah, [00:03:00] sure. He was like, too bad. I was
Chris Gazdik: preparing you. I wasn’t being mean. Is it mean? No. Okay,
Victoria Pendergrass: good. You know I’m a go with the flow kind of person.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, so. This is a delivery of therapy services also.
Not to deliver therapy services. Oh, she heard me! Alright, this is not to deliver therapy services in any way. But look, this seriously is the human emotional experience, which we endeavor to figure out together, and we really have a
good one. Victoria gets introduced to the topic. Would you like for me to read it?
Why don’t you?
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. Ooh, commitment issues, millennial fear of marriage.
Chris Gazdik: What do you think about that?
Victoria Pendergrass: I agree. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: you know, I just I just really wanted to talk about this
Victoria Pendergrass: before we kind of kind of come up in conversation.
Chris Gazdik: We hadn’t we want to take a deep dive in this today, Victoria, I think because, yeah, you know, I feel like it.
It’s been [00:04:00] touched on talked about but it it hasn’t really been. I don’t know. I’m tuning into this being a big problem. And I, and I term it as problem and I know that’s going to be controversial. So we got a lot of views about this. We got a lot of opinions about this. I’m very curious how this show will be received.
And I think it’ll be pretty strongly listened to because people are going to be a little bit miffed by this. But let me, let me tell you kind of an angle that I want to take about this. So the questions that we have, the first two are like. Edgy, they’re, they’re, they’re kind of a funny question. The third one is, is, is legit, right?
The first one, and you’ll understand this in a minute, so track with me. Are you getting married soon? That’s a question. Yeah. Right. Do you have a timeline thought for kids? That’s a question. Yeah. Right. And you know, by now, if you’ve listened to the show that we give these questions for you to think about and to ponder through the show as we’re going through it, [00:05:00] that’s not really the questions that I want you to ponder, but that goes to the origination of why the show got created.
So the real question is who was you. Quote unquote, responsible for the concerning drop in marriage or presumably the fear of commitment that young folks. Demonstratively
John-Nelson Pope: seen. You know, you’re talking about Millennials, right? And Gen Z. And
Chris Gazdik: Gen Z. And I suspect more so Gen Z Well, I would agree. Well, and I
Victoria Pendergrass: suspect as we go, the younger generations.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. And the interesting thing is Who’s responsible for that? Now, obviously no one’s responsible, but here’s the genesis of this show today. So let me back up. It’s got to
John-Nelson Pope: be a misunderstanding. You said genesis, so I was, oh, wow. It must be an understanding. It is. Misunderstanding. I’m going to leave it alone.
You know
Chris Gazdik: that song, don’t you? [00:06:00] I’m going to leave it alone. I love that. No, so. Earlier, a long time ago, somebody made the point to me about Millennials. Cause you know, trophy, trophy, you know, Mimi participation, you know, all this crap. But yeah, Victoria just rolled her eyes. Would you like to describe the eye roll?
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, I mean, I just don’t, yeah, a lot of people say that Millennials and Gen Zers were these like people who think we deserve. Participation trophy for everything that we do. Right. I don’t necessarily agree with that. Okay,
Chris Gazdik: you know what my client told me, Victoria? Yeah. He’s like, Who do you think gave us those trophies?
Y’all did. Good point. Y’all did, right? Us Gen Z ers did. Gen X ers. Gen X ers, yeah. I’ll just shake these letters straight. We’re the parents. He’s like, look, we just want to play kickball and baseball. We didn’t care about trophies and all this and whatever and all that. You gave that to us. And [00:07:00] I thought, what a stunning reality.
He’s he’s right. Yeah, he’s right. So the genesis of this show about marriage and what is going on with these issues is that I was looking at a millennial person in session and he has a girlfriend that moved in with him and he looked at me and we were talking about. Marriage maybe your commitments, and just the process.
And it came out, and he looked at me, he said, Chris, you gotta understand, no one has brought up to me. No one. Short, maybe his mom, he said, maybe. I have not been asked by anyone those two questions that we started with. So we’re like, you know, hey Jimmy Bob, like, When are you gonna get married? 32. What, when, are you thinking about having kids?
You know, like, eh, eh, what’s going on here, bud? No
Victoria Pendergrass: one real. That
Chris Gazdik: shocks me. I was shocked as well. I was shocked as well. Now I was talking about this. You [00:08:00] know, the other yesterday last night with, Hey, I’ll give you a Mr. Mr. B. I didn’t, I’ll say your name, Bryson. He don’t care. I hope you’re, I hope you’re listening, Bryson.
Cause he actually told me, yeah, he gets asked all the time in, in, in circumstances and stuff and
Victoria Pendergrass: what I think it also depends on what stage you’re at. Like if you’re freshly engaged or freshly married, then yeah, You get asked more about kids.
Chris Gazdik: Well, not so fast. I talked to a different client as this was on my mind and his daughter was getting older.
She’s graduated college. She’s got her own apartment and doing her own thing. Yeah. And I suggested I just ask because this question was on my mind. So
John-Nelson Pope: this is observational. This is
Chris Gazdik: anecdotal. This is observational. This is also kind of, we’ve seen clinical. We’re going to back it up in some statistics, John, in a minute.
Right? Sadistics statistics, sadistics, sadistical statistics. Yes. All right. I hurt my brain. No, he said he didn’t want to bring this up to his daughter. Yeah. He didn’t [00:09:00] really want to pressure. Well, he didn’t really want to push.
Victoria Pendergrass: I do think that times are changing. A lot. And people are not asking those questions as much.
Chris Gazdik: Not nearly
Victoria Pendergrass: as much. I think whether people are setting boundaries or people are just realizing like, hey, let them live their lives if, you know. I mean, like, I have, like, I have, okay, for example, I have like no first cousins. Right. Because my mom’s brother. Never married, doesn’t have kids and my dad’s sister never married and doesn’t have kids.
They’re
John-Nelson Pope: Gen Z ers. No, they’re Gen
Chris Gazdik: X.
Victoria Pendergrass: Gen X. Yeah, so they’re y’all’s age. It’s kind of rare for X ers, yeah. And so actually a little bit older than you, but like I think as time goes on people are realizing like, Hey, let people just live their lives and not ask the question. Which I think people appreciate because like, Nothing I hate more than going to a [00:10:00] family.
Reunion or family function and having to answer the question of like, am I dating someone or am I married or am I planning on, on getting married or married or what am I having kids? I know, but like, I wouldn’t push back at
Chris Gazdik: that though. I mean, back in the past. Let me gently push back at that though. I I get that.
Yeah. I think there’s potentially, and this is nude to. So I’m totally working this out as this topic is real because we do see a bit of a problem and I see it as a clinical mental health. Problemary and you saw the show title when you agreed. Yeah, there are reasons for that Now I don’t want to go too far into like all comparing of the cohorts because I never really enjoyed that.
It’s fascinating It’s neat. It’s fun But there are some very real changes some societal norms that are being challenged and I don’t know that that’s necessarily a good thing and part of the old guard teaches new people kind of what’s going on and when you [00:11:00] Fail to do that We had, for example, a, a example of absentee fatherhood at one, at some points, John Smiles.
Yes. Right. Go,
John-Nelson Pope: go with that a little bit. You mean absentee fathers, in other words, that, that are, are not really involved in the lives of the kids there’s living in there may be living at home at night, but there’s no, no commitment, physically absent
Chris Gazdik: or sometimes mentally, emotionally,
John-Nelson Pope: physically absent that they’re not.
That, well, many of the, the issues when I, I saw that particularly when I was in the Navy, a lot of the, the parents of the recruits, and that had changed from the time when I first started ministry. There
Chris Gazdik: are norms that change and I would submit that that’s a problem. And I don’t think we’ve thought about it from that angle where parents need to help the kids, you know, learn what it is that they need.
to do, how to operate some guidance, some assistance, but then you [00:12:00] got to go do it. I think, I think there’s going to be a fun topic as we go down and I, and I want to openly challenge you a little bit to think a little bit outside of the way things are now and see if we want to keep or change.
John-Nelson Pope: So there’s a lot of other definitions in terms of what makes a family as well.
But we’re talking about marriage now in the definitions.
Chris Gazdik: So do we really need to define marriage is a question I put out here for us, right? Well,
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, you said seem so.
Chris Gazdik: So
John-Nelson Pope: what, what is your definition of
Chris Gazdik: marriage? I’m going to put it to the panel. Okay. It feels like a little more of a hot potato than it ever used to be, right?
Well, I
Victoria Pendergrass: is a legal document, two people are in love with each other, I don’t, It
John-Nelson Pope: transcends, it, well, theologically, it’s at least from my background and understanding from a Judeo Christian idea, is that it is one of the first, Institutions, but [00:13:00] it’s not necessarily either being Jewish or
Christian. We see that marriage is throughout the world and different religions and faith groups.
It is a in, in my tradition, it’s a covenant and it’s a actually a covenant that’s stronger than what a government would see as legal. Yeah. Then I’m a, I’m a minority on that. I believe marriage is tough and, and I, by that I mean it should not be easy to do and it should not be easy to get out of unless there’s some physical
Chris Gazdik: and emotional Listen, I’m gonna say at the beginning part of this show that I am a staunch.
Family marriage advocate. Okay. I think that is an important part of Any society which is why human beings have had it? Sociologically as a part of I dare say all is that a fair statement? I don’t know All [00:14:00] societies, sociologically, in the history of man have had some form of union between. Right.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. I think, I think, I don’t know if y’all would disagree, but then I think the definition kind of.
Slightly offers when alters, when you think about things that like child marriage is still legal in like a lot of places. And like, is that the same, does that follow the same definition of marriage as what you’re talking about? You know, like 13 year olds being
Chris Gazdik: married,
John-Nelson Pope: from my Judeo Christian background, I, that is, that is a no, no.
And yet people that were, they did marriages and arranged marriages, two or three years old. So. So.
Chris Gazdik: So. So. forms around the world, right? There is, but there are marriages.
John-Nelson Pope: There are marriages around the world. And, and the other thing is, is interestingly enough is that I can marry people that aren’t necessarily believers as I do from my denomination, because it is an order of creation is the way I would look at it [00:15:00] theologically.
It’s something that is one of the first ordinances.
Chris Gazdik: I love the way you’re. Working with definition, john, we have gotten so honestly, I feel like kind of twisted in all of the different ways and alternatives and things that people are thinking out there. And I want to suppose that quite possibly it is related to dynamic fears and insecurities.
In intimately close relationships. Can I make that statement that that’s the cause, that’s the root, that’s the foundation, a lot of
Victoria Pendergrass: times? Maybe, but I also think that, I don’t know, maybe this is the millennial in me. Okay, yeah. But just because people aren’t getting married. I don’t think that necessarily means that they have a fear of, like, it doesn’t mean that they’re not dating and in, like, committed [00:16:00] relationships.
Chris Gazdik: Oh yeah, I know. Listen, I don’t even know what half these things are. We have safety marriages. We have open marriages. We have living alone together marriages. We have polyandry. We have parenting marriage. We have polygamy. We have monogamy. We have polygyny? I don’t know what that is. P O L Y G Y N Y. Do you know what that is?
I need to look that up. Neil, would you look that up? Do either of you know?
Oh,
John-Nelson Pope: I used to know when I took anthropology. Yeah. But that was 50
Chris Gazdik: years ago. Oh boy. Look up P O L Y G Y N Y and see what is that. But then there’s other forms. There’s polyamorous, miyamor. That’s a kitchen table deal, basically.
urs, which is meta, meta, meta mure. Your partner’s, partner’s partner. And then you got poly QEs. That’s romantic networks. I mean,
John-Nelson Pope: it’s, now these, these [00:17:00] are manufactured, these are four. Are these, are they of what people? Are they, are they marriage That is. Is, is this sort of the, the, the soup du
Chris Gazdik: jour? John, this is what I mean when people, when I say people are getting a little twisted out there with the fundamental aspect of marriage.
Victoria Pendergrass: I know. How does that play into the millennial sphere of marriage?
Chris Gazdik: What say you?
Victoria Pendergrass: I don’t think it does.
Chris Gazdik: You don’t think it does? I mean,
John-Nelson Pope: How can you be committed to to like 10 people that you have know.
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, I’m
John-Nelson Pope: Sister Wives blows my
Chris Gazdik: mind. It’s a heck of a show, right? Half of them have left us,
John-Nelson Pope: so Half
Chris Gazdik: of the Sister Wives are gone?
I did not know that. One or two of them or more
Victoria Pendergrass: have like Oh boy, this is scandalous. divorced him or left him because they’re not legally married. [00:18:00] But whatever. You lost my train of thought.
Chris Gazdik: You were challenging. What does this have to do with Millennial
Victoria Pendergrass: so like, technically, not technically, I believe like, love is love.
Love who you want to. I don’t give a crap who you love. Love is blue. Just love them, and be nice to them. And let them love you. So like, to me, These words, these different types of marriages, that’s not gonna instill fear of getting married. Well,
Chris Gazdik: I think I should Oh, no, no, no, wait. Yeah, no, Victoria. Sorry, John.
I, I, I feel it’s the opposite. I think these things oftentimes get as a result of A fear of being in close, committed attachment. Yeah, opposite. One on one. Well, because
Victoria Pendergrass: there’s some people out there that think that, like, us humans were not made to like, love one [00:19:00] person and only one person and be with only one person for our whole entire lives.
Like, there’s people that don’t believe that. That is a challenge that’s put out there. I don’t know. I think you kind of, John’s love
Chris Gazdik: it. John’s got the biggest smile of YouTubers. I also
Victoria Pendergrass: think, I also think it goes back to, sorry I’m getting excited so I’m yelling. But it also gets, I think, down to like the fact that People believe different things and it’s hard to tell like what we do now because of what like society has put in place in the past that makes us feel obligated to do certain things now and what is like our human instinct.
Which millennial
John-Nelson Pope: does what their parents or what society wants, right? Excuse me. Right?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Right. You know, it’s, it’s a thing that, like, repeats itself in younger generations want to differentiate themselves from the older people, like, my parents are stupid, I’m [00:20:00] gonna do something else, and there’s a rebeb rebellion that kind of occurs and whatnot, and so, but I think when you, when you look at Victoria, like the emotions that go into all of these dynamics and we begin to see, let’s jump, John, at some of the statistics that you have.
And I, and I have some as well that support and result in some concerning.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, you said, and I had the same statistics, it says one in six said that they do not plan on getting married. That’s millennials and Gen Zers, right? And now 83 percent would prefer, or I think it’s 83 or 85. 5%, but would like to get married, but they don’t feel marriage is needed to have a fulfilling and committed relationship.
And so in other words, it’s, it’s sort of a wiggle room thing that seems to be a contradiction. And so there’s that idea that, well. We can be [00:21:00] committed outside of marriage, right? Yeah, I and I have to I have to also state that I’m working with some people that are Gen Z’s and Millennials and they call their they have a relationship where They’re F body buddies, right?
Chris Gazdik: F buddies. F buddies. And it sounds like a fun relationship.
John-Nelson Pope: No, no, no, no, no. There’s no commitment. It’s just, it’s just rotten. You know, they’re, they’re like people running. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Essentially. And that’s not exactly new. Yeah. You know, that’s, that’s not brand new. Well, that’s It’s happened in the old days too.
It’s just that what are the norms? What are the statistics saying? And how is this really, can you tell me
John-Nelson Pope: how, let’s say with somebody that is
Chris Gazdik: a
John-Nelson Pope: woman, let’s say a person who’s a prostitute what do they call them [00:22:00] now? They’re sex workers. Sex workers. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: They get
Victoria Pendergrass: paid. We don’t use the P word anymore, John.
These are people
Chris Gazdik: that, no we don’t. No, you don’t. I don’t. Okay. I don’t mean to be offensive.
John-Nelson Pope: These, yeah, they’re sex workers. They’re sex workers. Okay. But, I mean, that’s how the language tries to change the definition. Yeah. Which is, I
Victoria Pendergrass: don’t think it’s changing the definition. I think it’s
Chris Gazdik: Well, let’s let John get on it.
Yeah. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: My, my point is this. There are people now, and they’ve always done it. I understand that, but that wasn’t a norm at the time. There’s always a person that would just have sex with promiscuity, promiscuity. Right. We don’t believe in that anymore. What we have are F buddies, right? And so promiscuous, it’s not, we’re, we’re buddies that have benefits or not even friends
Victoria Pendergrass: with, well, I see it as okay.
If, if, if it’s just between two consensual people [00:23:00] and you’re agreeing, hey, this is something that we both need as human beings and we can agree to do it with each other and not sleep around with a bunch of other people, then I think that also provides a level of like safe, safety and security by knowing that like, you’re with someone sexually that you know is like safe and
John-Nelson Pope: there are
Victoria Pendergrass: people there are people but I
John-Nelson Pope: do agree like if they do the F buddy thing they they say okay you must show me your papers to show show that you’ve been tested.
I’m sorry.
Chris Gazdik: That’s trusting. That’s that’s true, right? Yeah, that’s safe being sarcastic. Listen, I wish there’s
Victoria Pendergrass: so much here when I
Chris Gazdik: was talking. There’s so much here. I mean, when we have the first of all, we change names of things, like you said, John, to make it seem different than things than things are. We have to be careful about that insofar as what’s What’s going [00:24:00] on and what’s, what’s happening in the real behaviors of things we have also to really begin to understand the mental health, the, the, the, the emotional realities we like to deny are important when you go the day before and the day after you get married, that is, that is a huge difference.
And I’ve been seeing this clinically in my work. Where I’m working with domestic partners in couples counseling. I mean, I’ve been doing that since 1990 something. Right? It’s not exactly new. It’s been going on. And I’ve never been surprised when people are shocked. Well, I was at first. But I’m not surprised when people are shocked at how differently they feel when they make, and here’s the word, a commitment.
Yet we want to say that we’re safe and we’re comfortable when we don’t make that commitment. And I’m telling you people don’t do that because of the age of anxiety that we’re in is what [00:25:00] I fear.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, and I, and I agree and I think it’s tangible things, things that are fungible. For example, the people have separate accounts and,
and they there’s a sense that their monies aren’t intermingled and yet they’re there, they’re living together.
They may even have kids together, but there’s a sense that they’re not totally united. And I think that’s one of the, the, the issues I have dealt with is that people have told me how much, when I do weddings, marriages don’t do a lot of them anymore. And that’s because I think the changing demographics and that, that sort of thing, but they say is so much different being married than, than we just, we thought life was, was okay when we were living together and then they realize they have to work at being married once they get married.
Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: There’s a lot to these things you’re speaking of. [00:26:00] Yeah. But also,
Victoria Pendergrass: and I don’t know if we’ll get into this. As we go on, I think it’s also more than just the fear of marriage. I think there’s also like the financial and like other aspects.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, we’ll definitely get into that. We can go there now. I mean, possible reasons in listening, there’s economic fears and somebody was talking about some of these things on YouTube, you know, the, the, the choice of wanting to be career focused and witnessing of high divorce rates and fearing and.
being uncomfortable with living through that trauma. I lived that right. Changing social norms are a part of the realities here. So there, there are things and we’ll talk maybe more in depth with that because there are some things that are happening. And again, there’s to a certain sense of alarm is what I would, you
John-Nelson Pope: know, I’m glad you’re not a dink.
Oh, thanks. Dual income.
Victoria Pendergrass: No kids. Yeah. Or I could be a dink wide. [00:27:00] Double income, no kids with
Chris Gazdik: a dog. Wait a minute, what’s wrong with being a dink? I’m a dink. No, you’re not. I’m a dink. Well, I have kids, but they’re out. They’re off the payroll. Do y’all have dogs? No, no, no,
you’re
John-Nelson Pope: still supporting your kids. That doesn’t stop.
Technically,
Victoria Pendergrass: you would be a
Chris Gazdik: dinkwad. So I can’t be a dinkwad if they’re, if they’re, I don’t
Victoria Pendergrass: know. If you’re still supporting them, no. For other people that don’t know what that means, a dink is a double income, no kids household. A dinkwad is a double income, no kids with a dog.
Oh,
Chris Gazdik: it just blows my mind. Or dogs, plural.
We live in the meme society. I’m sorry if people are like, oh my god, boomer. I’m not a boomer. I won’t say that. I’m a boomer. I know, right? Oh, boomer. Or what’s the expression? Go boomer. You know what
John-Nelson Pope: is it? No, there’s something about boomers.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, because you guys are supposed to be old fogies and we need to check our privilege and right listen We need to respect elders and what works and what doesn’t and [00:28:00] what pitfalls people get into Yeah, but that also means the old
Victoria Pendergrass: lady can’t skip in front of me in the bathroom line because she wants to act like she’s She just doesn’t know what she’s doing.
Huh? Get to the back of the line,
John-Nelson Pope: lady. She may have urgency.
Victoria Pendergrass: I may have urgency!
Chris Gazdik: Victoria, you have an Alaska platter. Victoria, there’s a little reality that as you get older The reality, what I hear John sort of squeaking to is, is prostates are different. Bladders are difference. There’s emergent circumstances related to needs.
Now that doesn’t give
John-Nelson Pope: her a privilege to do that. She should not have done that. Right.
Chris Gazdik: Right. What else we got before we get. Out of the, what are we talking about? Like, 73 percent say marriage is too expensive. Heck yeah! Right? I agree with that! And attack children on with
John-Nelson Pope: that too! No. That, to me, that is something that is highly contestable.
Easily. And it would show that, that [00:29:00] marriage, instead of making it more expensive, you might have more income to spend things on yourself or on your toys and that sort of thing. But if you want to make a foundation and become the secure economically is that you are in a committed marriage that lasts for a number of years and that you’re, and that you raise kids and you will almost be guaranteed to, to have an education to have opportunities.
Chris Gazdik: Isn’t it ironic, John, that fear. can contort reality. Yeah. And I think that’s happening a lot with these things. Yeah. They really do. Fear can contort reality. And there are several fears. I can’t be an individual. If I’m married. I can’t have a career if I’m married. I can’t have wealth if I’m married. But fear can contort that, Victoria.
Right? So
Victoria Pendergrass: you erased the percentage that says that believe marriage is [00:30:00] outdated.
Chris Gazdik: No, I didn’t erase it. It said No, I didn’t erase it. I said the percentage of marriage that believes it to be outdated. 54 percent of women and 42 percent of men. Oh, gotcha. Right? I should have kept reading. Those are pretty big levels.
Yeah. 2021 25 percent of 40 year olds never married compared to 20 percent in 2010. That’s a 5 percent increase of people never getting married. Average age 38 or 30 men and 28 women. Average dating time prior to marriage is 2. 5 years. However, with millennials, it’s 6. 5
John-Nelson Pope: years. And so what are you, you’re delaying the kids fear, fear, fear, fear, this, we’re going to have a cratering.
Of our population. Yes, and no one will be able to take care of me when i’m 90 years old. It’s happening because yeah I’ll have to have mr. [00:31:00] Roboto take care of me.
Chris Gazdik: It’s it’s almost a robot Yeah, I don’t know if you’re being silly with the last
John-Nelson Pope: part. No, i’m not being serious. I’m being serious Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, because I mean it’s it’s it’s almost like the reverse of the baby.
Boom.
Victoria Pendergrass: It is Right, right. I have a client who it phil we’ve i’ve had a client who we’ve Talked about kids and he is adamant about, I don’t think he’ll mind me talking about this, but he’s adamant about like doing his civic duty to have kids and like to populate or to like keep The oh,
John-Nelson Pope: okay, was it one person or is this
Chris Gazdik: made a monogamous relationship?
Yeah
Victoria Pendergrass: polyamorously No, he’s married and his wife and him are trying to get pregnant For that reason for that reason like well not solely. I mean they might have kids but like the part of his thought process is and what he told me is like he believes that like it’s his civic duty to I may
Chris Gazdik: ask what’s
Victoria Pendergrass: his [00:32:00] age?
30, 34,
Chris Gazdik: 35. So he’s young 30s, millennial year. You know what’s going on in there? Honestly, my reaction to that, Victoria, if I may, is I find that sort of a little strange. I don’t know many people have that sort of thinking process that’s active. But what I would submit to you, possibly, is just me thinking anecdotally and experiencing lots and lots of couples and people, is that there’s a recognition of like, well, wait a minute.
The the the I don’t know that. I just want to go with the new societal norms because there are concerns on the other side
Victoria Pendergrass: of that. Yeah, but also and I think maybe now. That I have pushed a baby out of my body. That I have a slightly different viewpoint on like having kids. Right. And the marriage thing is one thing.
But I think with having kids like when I talk to clients now, I try to be really serious about the fact [00:33:00] that like kids aren’t something that are easy like You know, yes, there are people that get like accidentally pregnant and choose to have their babies and go on with their lives. But like, kids are serious.
Like kids cost a lot of money. Kids cost a lot of time. Kids cost your mental health. Like it’s not short run. Yeah, short term, short term. Also, like right now 21 month old. And you’re tired and I’m exhausted and I earlier today, I could barely keep my eyes open during session. I felt so bad, but like, and I think, so I guess what I’m saying is more like, I can see why.
With the fear, maybe. But like, having a baby is traumatic. Like, it’s
Chris Gazdik: not something can. Because it’s a good moment To just do willy nilly. Absolutely, but, but the other side of that is true too, Victoria. [00:34:00] Fear can prevent people from doing this. Yeah. And I am submitting to you that that’s a lot of what’s happening.
And you need to know, and I’d really like to offer you as a parent. Yeah. That it is also manageable. Yeah. It is a wonderful experience. That parents will, hands down, even if their child is developmentally significantly delayed with autism, or like my neighbor who has Down syndrome, they would not change one thing about his Down syndrome.
Right, no, yeah. It’s a rewarding, wonderful life experience that you will be able to manage. Like, you will
Victoria Pendergrass: get through this. Right, but I also think if you ask me if I were, if I would do this again. Yeah, I’m not having a kid. Right. Like, I love my kid to death. Would do anything for him. But if I had a chance to live this life again, I don’t know if I would have kids.
Okay. And that’s just my opinion, and I know, like, that’s just me. [00:35:00] And maybe when my kid’s five, I’ll be like, yeah, let’s have another kid. But, like That is not my thought process right now.
John-Nelson Pope: We have China there was a policy, one child policy. Right. Yeah, that’s changed. Yeah, it has changed because what they discovered is, is that one is there’s too many men that not enough women, not enough women.
And on top of that, and there’s still that the cultural bias against having women. And so they’re working with two things. One it’s state. Mandating that you have one child, the problem is the population is cratering will be cratering at a certain age and the population will be much older and they won’t have enough to work in terms of their productivity and their employment.
And so in other words, I’m, I’m saying society, right? Of society benefits. And so when your client says that he has a civic duty, [00:36:00] I, I, I, I think that can, can get a little icky weird too, but at the same time, he’s got a point. I mean,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, I think in like what my client’s viewpoint is, is he’s doing it for society.
For themselves. I
John-Nelson Pope: hope he’s doing it because he loves the
Victoria Pendergrass: child. Yeah, he’s doing it for himself, but I think there’s also this underlying Reason of like when we basically had the very similar conversation that we’re having right now I had with my client really about like yeah This is in our office and like the gap and with the age and population or whatever So, I don’t know.
But I do think, I do, I would agree that even fear drives, even like a lot of what I’m saying right now, I think fear drives, is like, drives it. I think
Chris Gazdik: so too. John and I are jumping on that. Yeah. We are. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and it’s a, listen, let me, let me then offer as well normalization of that. When you’re in the middle of something that’s hard, [00:37:00] do you not?
Consider like, wow, what, what did I, why did I decide this? If I had to do over again, I would, I would, as you just said, Victoria, and a really good example pops into my head right now. It’s really near and dear to my heart, John. And I know you’re going to jump into this and you know where I’m going, but you know where I’m going right now.
My son is in the, in the bootcamp and he has been told you’re going to. feel like, why did you ever do this? This is the worst decision that you’ve ever made in your entire life. And
John-Nelson Pope: when you clean baseboards with a toothbrush, he is, and you’re doing that and then you’re marching yourself to death. I mean,
Chris Gazdik: it’s awful.
And at the end of the game, hands down a high majority of the time. Understand that this is the best thing that he ever could have done for himself because it’s hard, right? Yeah, like it’s normal to [00:38:00] feel these types of fears. Yeah before during and you understand after When you get through things that are hard and bootcamp is hard.
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. our topic today. Raising kids. Dealing with marriage is
Victoria Pendergrass: hard. Well, yeah, and I’m not saying that like maybe in five years my mindset won’t change and I’ll, you know, I’m sure would do it. You know,
Chris Gazdik: I’m sure be moving around. Have these three kids though. Oh dear. Gosh. ’cause you have to . Oh dear.
But you know, let me take that moment and say, you’re an older fella. And part of the genesis of this show is a different angle that I thought about. Are young people listening to older people’s experience? Are older people sharing their experience? Are we a fearful of
John-Nelson Pope: offending young people? I don’t want to be called OK Boomer.
Okay. I’m sorry that I have no voice, right? And I get that feeling [00:39:00] so much so often and that the world is dictated by tick tock and Instagram. Okay. Now I know all about, I know about these things, but I don’t participate in them because I have young, I have young adult kids, right? And they can tell you all about, they can tell and say, okay, dad, we know that you’ve got to pull up your walking yeah.
Your your wheelchair and all of that. I’m, I’m, I’m joking about that. But, but, people don’t listen. They don’t share. There’s not, intergenerational dialogue doesn’t
Chris Gazdik: happen anymore. Intergenerational dialogue doesn’t happen anymore. I think the older generations are Fear, here are the words, fearful to offend and speak, sharing their experience, younger generations are fearful of what they’re going to be forced or told they have to do because we want to be independent.
And a lot of this is, is it by the way, we’re an international podcast. This is an American. Culture, I think that we’re primarily focused on. [00:40:00] Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. We’re all not really, well, because that’s what we’re familiar with.
Chris Gazdik: That is what we are. This panel is more familiar with and the dynamic issues that we’re experiencing in the States, but I suspect this is a little, you know, world, it might, for real.
Go worldly. TikTok is worldwide. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, I don’t know. I mean,
Victoria Pendergrass: I think that, I think it goes underlying things is, well, you know what, what we always say, that people listen to respond and not listen to understand. Right. I mean, like, I don’t, I cannot tell you, What my great grandparents did for work have no idea.
Okay, like I have no idea great great grandparents Yeah, so like my you’re probably farmers my grandma’s Parents, but like I think and I would agree. I don’t [00:41:00] think that people are talking enough. I don’t think that people are sharing their experiences enough. And maybe that’s because
Chris Gazdik: isolation. Listen, we live in, I don’t know who said it on this show, but I loved the, the, the, the word combination.
Are we living in the age of anxiety? Are we way more isolated? Than ever has been before are we feeling so lonely as a pandemic? These are things people are talking about people and I don’t know definitely
Victoria Pendergrass: did not help
Chris Gazdik: And I don’t know that we’re aware of the outcomes and the dangers of them.
John-Nelson Pope: I got a quote for you the children now love luxury.
They have bad manners contempt for authority. They show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their household. They no longer rise. When elders enter the room, they contradict [00:42:00] their parents. Chatter before company gospel up dainties at the table, cross their legs and tyrannize their teachers.
Who said that?
Victoria Pendergrass: It’s probably actually somebody really
John-Nelson Pope: old. Socrates, 400 B. C. Oh, I love
Chris Gazdik: that. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: Love that. So we’re having the same discussion today, aren’t we? Isn’t
Chris Gazdik: it funny the way things tend to repeat in history and move in cycles and as cycles go? You know why, I think, John? Because human emotional experience. Yes.
Right? Yeah. The thing we say on this show every time we we join together. Mm hmm. Because the human emotional experience is driving a lot of these different things. Baby booms? Huh. As much as what we’re dealing with now with baby, what do we call it? Marriage falling, what you call it? [00:43:00]
John-Nelson Pope: Cratering and collapse.
Well, you know, in terms of when Rome fell like I know all this, but anyway, but, you know, there was a gradual slide into there, there was Rome and then there was not Rome at the time. And people. There was a, again, a cratering of the population because people forgot how to do things. They forgot there was uncertainty and there wasn’t a belief and a faith in something greater.
They had lost their bearings and their moorings. And they had some real enemies, there were the, the invaders barbarians from the north, the German tribes, Germanic tribes, and people were, were saying there’s no respect, there’s no, and so they wanted to go back to the old ways but they had to, to end up eventually Civilization had to change and maybe that’s where we’re at.
[00:44:00] We’re at a, we’re at a focal point.
Chris Gazdik: A little bit of an inflection point. We’re at an impasse. Yeah. In some ways, I think that we are in, in, in mental health in the way that we feel. I suspect is right in the middle of all of that. And Oh, I think so. Yeah. Not that I want to blame the internet, but that is such a dynamic human change with you’re sounding like me.
I mean, John, when you’re right, you’re right, brother, you know, but it’s such a dynamic, well, my point is it’s such a dynamic. Different human experience. Yeah. Which is why the Millennials are a turning point, right? Huh. Yeah. To some extent.
Victoria Pendergrass: I also, I wonder, and I don’t know if there’s stats on it, but I almost wonder if there’s a stat that shows, like, the percentage of Millennials who had parents that were DV victims?
Domestic violence victims. Okay. Yeah. I [00:45:00] wonder if there’s a correlation between that and like people not getting Millennials not getting married Probably to a certain extent.
Chris Gazdik: I think that happened. I suspect divorce is just way way greater though. Yeah, but now
John-Nelson Pope: That’s the other thing is divorce is there’s some interesting statistics about divorce and it’s, and I would have to do some deep diving research, but my suspicion is that some of the high rates of divorce is because the same people are getting divorced over and over again, they get married, they,
Chris Gazdik: they have, yeah, well, I think there’s a lot to it.
I mean, the, the, the millennial divorce rate, any idea what it is? Yeah. I don’t
Victoria Pendergrass: know. Can I guess 25%? It seems to
Chris Gazdik: be continuing to go down. The divorce rate? Yeah, Craig and I talked about this a couple of years ago. Is that because people aren’t getting married? I think
John-Nelson Pope: it’s 25%, which is unlike my generation’s 50%.
Chris Gazdik: 50%. It’s been 55, 60 percent for a while, 50, 55 percent I should say. [00:46:00] And we were shocked when it came down to 45 percent and
then it was 40%. And doing this research now, I saw the Statistic 25 percent pop. It’s going pretty low. Yeah, but I would ask marriages for sure
Victoria Pendergrass: would mean that less divorces Well,
Chris Gazdik: but does it would it know, you know, I I think you got to be careful about statisticians Well, I don’t like to take a deep dive on those I want to think about trends and what’s happening with the emotions of things.
Let me grab into some before we lose the time I thought of the reasons and I thought in advance of the Sort of a response if you will or helpful hopefully thoughts and then you guys can take where where you want with it So the economic fear is real people fear. Remember we don’t want fear to be in Decision making let me say that again.
That’s a hard point. We don’t want fear to be in Decision making, which I think is a failure, is a, a, a fault, [00:47:00] is a pit, is a trap that you get caught into when fear is a part of decision making. So, economic fear. I, I would submit to you that few people have ever entered a marriage or entered child rearing without that fear.
As a fear. Do
John-Nelson Pope: you remember when you got married? Very much so, yeah. Okay. Terrified. Did you feel like Yeah. You were terrified? I remember that. I was so nervous that I they asked me, do you get, do you will you marry this woman? And so on and so forth. And the minister said that to me and I said, I do
And I . That was a question. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And
Chris Gazdik: everybody laughed. People. Know that your boots are shaking on the altar. I hysterically
Victoria Pendergrass: cried. I’ll show you the video one time, one day.
Chris Gazdik: You’ve talked about that. It’s fearful, guys. Changing societal norms. Again, what is the examination of the expectations? Do we have dialogue?
Remember we talked about expectations on the show before. [00:48:00] Long term norms? Long term norms. But then agreements and also requirements. Are we having intergenerational dialogue about Expectations and examining that
with norms. Hold on witnessing high divorce rates. Yes Realizing that the ability to continue the low millennial divorce rate is possible I would submit to you when people consider well I don’t want to go through the trauma of what happened what deeply happened in my family I would submit thinking about Look, don’t we have?
Choices to make don’t we have a certain play in our own destiny so that we don’t have to be 100 percent written into what was, is going to be, well, again,
John-Nelson Pope: that’s the age of anxiety that we’re living in because that’s, they’re saying we, they’re not willing. I mean, I think they want to take the, the chance to, for marriage to work out for them, [00:49:00] but fear, the fear of it is overwhelming.
And so they don’t take that. Leap
Chris Gazdik: and people in that fear state get stuck. Mm hmm That’s the
Victoria Pendergrass: concern and then all of a sudden you’re 55 and you’ve never been married, right? Are you like blink your eyes and you know
Chris Gazdik: being career focused is another thing that you people, you know You hear people talking about but I would submit to you.
Isn’t that in balance with what a family your spouse and you? discuss and
Victoria Pendergrass: maybe that’s Again, could be wrong, but I also think maybe this one specifically could be geared towards women. Especially when it comes to starting a family and having kids because, and I think nowadays roles are, and And expectations are starting to change, but I know like a lot growing up, it was always like, okay, well, the woman has to work a full time job and she has to be a full time parent and she has to cook and she has to clean and she [00:50:00] has to take the kids to school and she’s
John-Nelson Pope: got the third wave of feminism.
Okay. So then
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m saying like, that’s where the fear comes from is. They’re saying they look at and they’re like, well, how can I manage all that? How can I be successful on top of my career and top of my field and be a full time present mother and be
John-Nelson Pope: courageous, be courageous and, and embrace the third wave of fem feminism, which says, I can, I can have I can have a relationship.
I can have children. I can have, and I’m
Victoria Pendergrass: not necessarily, I’m just saying, I think that the fear. Of having to take on all that responsibility or feel like you have to take on all that responsibility can be very detrimental to a millennial and say like, I don’t want to do that. So therefore, like, I’m not going to get married and I’m not going to have kids.
Courage is hard, John. Yeah. Yeah, you make it sound so easy, John. It’s not.
Chris Gazdik: [00:51:00] Really, courage. No, I love you jumping at that, but I wanted to, to, to, to join with people that are listening. Huh. That, that are kind of like, you know, like, I have courage. I can, I can make, you know what? It’s hard. It is hard. And I’m fearful that with the challenges that we face nowadays.
People are really just not used to actively working through problem
John-Nelson Pope: solving. But your son, who’s in boot camp up in Chicago, and he’s going to be so cold next week. I know he is, John. Don’t break my heart. Okay, so. I’m watching the weather app. Five below. Okay. I know. Here’s, here’s my point though. He didn’t think he could do it, but he had a, he has a support system that helps him go through that.
Right. Maybe we need to be more, you know, if it’s not the church
Chris Gazdik: anymore or encouraging or informative, we need to be supportive, encouraging. Formative, like [00:52:00] helpful. I feel like there is a gap. There’s a failure that older people that we, me, Gen Xers are struggling to be vocal with people by helping them to know things they can’t know
John-Nelson Pope: before.
And it would help my generation not to say to them, get off my lawn. Right? Right. And I’m saying that
Victoria Pendergrass: metaphorically, right? But like, even again, speaking from personal experience, when I was pregnant, I don’t think anyone ever helped me understand the Mental health impact that was gonna happen from having a kid and, you know, being married and having a full time job, and I mean, I felt like I had like four jobs.
I was, I was pumping full time. I was like
Chris Gazdik: doing all these struggles that you deal with, really. Yeah. They are the struggles that you [00:53:00] deal with.
Victoria Pendergrass: But I think maybe if people reached out and, like, Provide, like what you’re saying, provided more support, provided more encouragement, provided more resources, maybe I would, my mental health would be at a different stage right
Chris Gazdik: now or whatever.
You’ve got to be willing to listen, but you’ve also got to be willing to speak.
John-Nelson Pope: By the way, I think your mental health is pretty good.
Victoria Pendergrass: You don’t know what goes on up here, John.
Chris Gazdik: Yes, I do. I can read minds. I’m going to try again, Victoria, and say, I know that there’s a struggle in the, in the point in time that you are as a young child, but people have done it before and I know that you’re going to be able to do it and be wickedly successful with it.
Because you’re a great person. I feel better
Victoria Pendergrass: about it now, 21 months later.
Chris Gazdik: But it’s scary, and, and, and, I want you listening out there to understand the beforehand pieces that, that, that, that oftentimes just divert you into another direction because you can’t have knowledge before you do it. Somewhere in my notes, [00:54:00] I was shocked the other day that we were talking, maybe about this topic, about something else, I think.
You got YouTube that teaches you everything before you struggle with how to do something. John, there was an eight minute video about how to pump gas in your car.
Victoria Pendergrass: There’s that lady, there’s that lady that built her whole entire house based off videos that she saw, watched on YouTube. Well,
Chris Gazdik: great, Victoria, that’s wonderful.
And, and I used that for that too. But, my point, you might be missing, Victoria. I might be missing. John and I just caught, I think, together with this, right? What did you catch from that, John? Because I was, it’s like, Really? Really?
John-Nelson Pope: You need to have somebody show you how to do that. And when in fact it has the instructions that are on the pump that you could do.
And you know, if you had an involved now, not a parent, they should be able to teach you that. Or an uncle or a cousin.
Chris Gazdik: Let’s do this together. Do it together. [00:55:00] Daughter father,
John-Nelson Pope: but you have a distance on
Chris Gazdik: the YouTube
Victoria Pendergrass: video, man. There’s this, I can’t remember his name, but there’s this guy. And I think there’s a mom too, who on Tik TOK who like purposely does, he does videos for people who have like absentee fathers and he teaches like all these cool different things that like.
A father, I don’t want to say should, but should teach their kid or would normally teach their kid and he like does these videos on like how to do different things. And then there’s also this mom who kind of shows like different hacks and different things for like what a mom should do. And I kind of like it because it’s kind of geared more towards
John-Nelson Pope: people who are like I hear that.
But you know, we really need the human touch. And I’m kind of thinking that I know many of our institutions have been discredited. I think the Catholic church in terms of the pedophilia, the boy scouts, the [00:56:00] same, but it’s such a small fraction. It is significant. It is. But at the same time, we need organizations where people.
If they have an absentee father or there’s somewhere that they can go. And also with families that intact families, I learned so much about life in the boy scouts, practical things that my dad didn’t teach me. Not that my dad wasn’t a good guy. He’s a great guy, but he couldn’t teach me everything. And so I learned things.
And so why don’t we do this more? Because it is absolutely helpful. And I think essential for us to carry on in times that for a lot of people, it’s uncertain, you
Chris Gazdik: know, once again, on YouTube, the comments cast nails, it community and villages, we need people to need and help each other. We are in a divide at this point.
Now she mentions
Victoria Pendergrass: politics. You have [00:57:00] to show up for people, and you can’t just sit here and preach. Oh, it, you know, it takes a village. It takes a community. It takes that. But then when someone has a kid or someone gets married, you don’t show up. You actually have to like show up and be present and be a part of, yeah, participate in said person’s life.
There’s a
John-Nelson Pope: great song and it’s called Catching the Cradle by the late, great Harry
Chris Gazdik: Chapin.
John-Nelson Pope: And the song tears me up because that is one of the early songs about absentee fatherhood. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. About a father who wasn’t there and he ends up alone. And he said the boy used to say, I’d like to grow up.
to be just like you, dad, right? And in the end, when he’s old and alone and nobody’s there he said, you’re right. My son grew up just like me because the son didn’t have anything to do with them. It’s a powerful song. Yeah, it’s a powerful song. [00:58:00] So we need to perhaps be mindful. I think it’s a great responsibility being a parent, being a husband.
Being a wife.
Chris Gazdik: It’s a great honor. Also. Yeah, it’s an honor. What an honor When when you allow someone to be as close to you as you are when you’re a spouse, you know, it’s scary
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, it’s it
Chris Gazdik: is an honor. I mean you are giving of yourself To your child and to your spouse in a way Hear me though in a way you can’t if you don’t have that commitment You can’t have it both ways.
And you don’t get through things that are hard without that struggle. And you don’t get the benefits of that struggle without that difficulty. You cannot have these things both ways. This, I think this in several reasons more or why I’m a staunch advocate of the value that you get in these [00:59:00] close relationships.
Title it whatever you want. We need more
John-Nelson Pope: intimacy. Not less.
Victoria Pendergrass: I would agree. It would make me want to go home and tell my husband that I’m honored to be married to him. You know what?
Chris Gazdik: Do that. As a matter of fact, Victoria, I love that. I will challenge you listening to this. Take that step, you know, with your significant other and
Victoria Pendergrass: your partner.
My kid will be asleep by the time we
Chris Gazdik: get home. Let them know. Let them know that you value them. Let them know that you value what you have. Let them know that it’s important to you. Let them know that you’re grateful and humbly express, you know, What did you say, Victoria? That I’m honored
Victoria Pendergrass: to be his, his, Wife that I’m honored to be married to him.
Chris Gazdik: That is a wonderful message to share with your spouse guys Give us closing comments and we’ll we’ll get out of here. Good topic. I appreciate you guys. We got passionate about this I’ll tell you
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, I think marriage [01:00:00] is Where you wake up every day and you choose to love the person that you’re next
Chris Gazdik: to there’s a choice very
Victoria Pendergrass: good that that like I, I don’t know.
I mean, I think that that’s, I don’t know. I think that’s a different type of love because it’s not like the love I h
choose to love him. I just love him, right? I love, love, love him. Yeah, but my husband, like I wake up every day and sometimes I have to remind myself throughout the day, depending on the day.
It’s not always an easy choice. That like. I love this person and I want to be with him. And so therefore I’m going to do what I need to do to make it work.
John-Nelson Pope: You’re going to do well. Oh, thanks. I have on my ring, my wife and I. We’re four years in, so. I ring 42 years in. And may you be as long. Yeah. As, as. And my parents are like 72 years.
Wow, that’s amazing. 73 years. [01:01:00] 73 years. Is on my ring is a Latin motto, basically Latin words. It’s De Ligama Samare, we choose to love. I love that. We choose to love. Yeah. And basically the idea is, is that every day is a choice. And it’s like, maybe it’s, it’s marital AA or something, you know, one day at a time.
And
Chris Gazdik: so I can’t do better than that, guys. Those are perfect closings. Thank you guys for the topic and the dialogue. Thanks for surprising me. Have have a great week, guys. Bye. I hope we’ve been helpful. Take care and we’ll see you next week. Bye. Thank you.