In this episode, we explore the intersection of professionalism and mental health, discussing core components of professionalism and its modern challenges. We delve into how mental health impacts productivity, workplace culture, and decision-making. Additionally, we examine the role of mental health professionals in navigating today’s cultural conflicts. Join us as we unravel these connections and shed light on this crucial intersection.
Tune in to see Culture Wars and Professionalism Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What is professionalism?
- How does the mental health profession need to interact with social issues?
- How is Mental health a part of professionalism?
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Episode #262 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] This is Through a Therapist’s Eyes, where you get insights from a panel of therapists in timing your car and personal time at home. We are going to be talking about professionalism today. Listen, do you know what professionalism is? Also, how does mental health profession need to interact with social issues and current event kind of the Jordan Peterson fella up in Ontario, Canada, who’s been in the news, we’re going to have a, an interesting conversation I think today with you, because I wonder how if you know what this really, this topic is like, I don’t feel like professionalism is talked about a whole lot.
So I think we’re going to have a great conversation today with Mr. John Pope, who is actually you were an ethics professor. Am I correct to say that? I taught ethics, taught ethics as a professor, which is a
John-Nelson Pope: professor. Okay. So you said [00:01:00] I was, yes. Okay. So I, and I passed the jurisprudence exam. Is that a thing?
It’s a thing for counselors. For
Victoria Pendergrass: LCMHDs, we have to pass a jurisprudence exam. Oh, okay. Every time we renew, like, I don’t know.
Chris Gazdik: Every time we renew?
John-Nelson Pope: Every time we renew, we have
Chris Gazdik: to pass it. I mean, ethics, ethics, ethics. And we have to pay for it. The professional organizations just pound us with it. For
John-Nelson Pope: sure.
Maybe because counselors get in trouble more.
Chris Gazdik: No comment whatsoever. I will get no hate mail on that because we might get a little political today. Not much. We’re going to cover it with respect and dispassionately. Also, I
Victoria Pendergrass: love how you just introduced John
Chris Gazdik: and I’m not done. This is Miss Victoria Pendergrass who’s been hanging out with us all month long.
How are you, ma’am?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, we had our first joint session
John-Nelson Pope: today. No, no, joint like in
Chris Gazdik: cannabis? [00:02:00] No, no, no. That’s an ethical issue. That would be an ethical issue. Yeah. Indeed. No, today we did our first joint therapy session together, Victoria and I, in a couples counseling session. I think it went well. Fantastic.
I think it went well. Pretty cool. So this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes episode two fifty, two sixty two, if I’m correct. Yeah. Two hundred and sixty two episodes in on February the eighth, two thousand and twenty four. So leave a review for us on Apple iTunes Spotify, thumbs up, clicks on YouTube.
All that stuff really helps us out. Five. John says. Five stars. Five
John-Nelson Pope: stars. Five stars, John. Five stars.
Chris Gazdik: We will make sure they give us five stars. Contact at ThroughATherapistEyes. com. Great way to contact us. Listen, this is the human emotional experience which we endeavor to figure out together knowing also Victoria, this is not the delivery of therapy services in any way.
Yes. [00:03:00] Good to say that on it. professionalism, ethics kind of show. Right. So I had an interesting meeting today also that’s part of the intro here that I want to kind of highlight and point out. Like book number two, we’re going to call it volume two. They liked the title. The publishers liked the title that I came up with.
They were really jazzed about it. The title is Through a therapist’s eyes, re understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. Fantastic. Right? So they’re, they’re really excited about the content and, and the book. It, it, you know, we’ll have a pub date, you know, to be announced. Books will be in my hand kind of in the fall.
Yeah. Book cover will be done. And, and I’ll look at it. Maybe I’ll post it to people that, are you gonna have an eyeball? It’s the same Okay. Concept. Maybe
a little bit different. I’m not sure what color, maybe a different color, but I’m getting excited about it. Mm-Hmm. , I mean, you know, I’m, I’m really, I It’s,
Victoria Pendergrass: congratulations.
Yeah. I’m really excited after meeting today, so I’m
Chris Gazdik: pretty overwhelmed with it. Yeah. Pretty jazzed about it. It, it, it’s, it’s been a, it is been a journey doing it. I mean, there’s a lot [00:04:00] that goes into this guy. It. This is not an easy project. It really isn’t to do. I did. She sang. She’s taking your role, John.
So that’s that’s coming out sometime this year, definitely. It’ll be around for the holidays. I’m excited about that this year. That’s good. Cool. Yeah, it’ll be just before The holidays, which kind of tells you a little bit of the publication date, but more on that to come. So, I really want to highlight this for you guys.
Listen, we got great feedback and I want you to appreciate Victoria. You really need to give her props. Give her some contact through a therapist’s eyes. Because the last show I was told that a mother’s 40 year old son who has struggled with ADHD for a long time, Victoria, and y’all need to understand that she was very open, genuine, and honest and talking about her own [00:05:00] process with ADHD.
And he listened to the show. And really made an indelible impact in his lives, which is what we endeavor to do. Figure this stuff out together, guys. We really are not telling you, we’re working out things with you. And he went and got on medications, and they were actually to have a 20 minute phone conversation, Victoria, as a result of, of, of your, your genuineness.
Yeah. Yeah. I want you to, to really hear that because it was, it was really cool. And if you didn’t listen to that show, I think it was a really good content show and, and, and, and a personal experience kind of sprinkled in throughout that. And I mean, just, just, I think we as therapists don’t get to hear sort of the other side of things very often and this, yeah, like this medium really affects people in a, in a positive way, which is why we do it.
What’s the topic on ADHD. Well, the topic
Victoria Pendergrass: was specifically on the Adderall epidemic uh, happening, [00:06:00] or if it’s been happening, and then, but yeah, we used my, like, personal
Chris Gazdik: She shared a lot. So listen, your job is, is to follow up with that. If you enjoy the show and you appreciate things like Victoria did last week and the indelible imprint and effect that it has on people throughout really the world, I don’t mean to be too dramatic, but that’s true.
Please help us and support us. We mean it like. Five stars is helpful. Please subscribe. That, that makes a big difference. Share an episode with your friends that Adderall epidemic episode last week needs to be shared. More people need to hear it and get the help that they need so that, you know, you’re not alone dealing with these mental health issues.
Like we’re passionate about it for that reason. So your job is if you enjoy the show, help us out. By clicking the buttons and doing the things that we ask you to do. We would like to welcome also a new YouTube subscriber. We’re getting a little bit of momentum and that’s because of you, I think. So Lisa, welcome to the YouTube.
I hope you’re finding [00:07:00] us out on the live that came in through today. I don’t know if you saw that nail, right? Yeah, another another another subscription. So that’s we really appreciate that. So let’s launch with this topic Yeah, what did you guys think when because they you know, you gotta understand that they don’t really know a lot of times in advance You know the topics You’re you’re like 30 seconds into knowing john.
I gave you a heads up because of your ethics knowledge. What do y’all think about it? I’m, sorry victoria Yeah. Oh, come on, sexism. That’s an ethical problem. Report me to the board, Mr. Dr. Pope. So what did you guys think about this topic? Really? I’m curious, just off the cuff, like, oh, we’re going to talk about culture wars, ethics.
We’re going to talk about professionalism. Like what went through your, your spirit is what I’m
John-Nelson Pope: asking. Well, with my spirit is, is that I had to look in terms of would I be outspoken and having to deal with that like Jordan Peterson is right. Yeah, and I would [00:08:00] approach it very differently than he would, as would I.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, but I also think it varies in terms of certain people in professions. Psychology might have a different understanding of that, but in Canada. It’s got him in trouble, his outspokenness,
Chris Gazdik: so We’ll, we’ll come back to that. Yeah. But yeah, I agree because I dunno who he’s, it’s, it’s the outspoken.
I’ll tell you, we’ve, we’ve got a do. I don’t want, I didn’t, neither Don I live under a rock too. You know
Victoria Pendergrass: but I thought I was interested, I already knew when you, I saw this topic that we were probably gonna disagree on some things, . Okay. And whether that’s because I’m a millennial and neither of y’all are, I don’t know.
But yeah, I’m interested to see where the conversation goes.
Chris Gazdik: You know, the point, John, that I was wondering about, and I don’t know, you didn’t Give an adjective there, Victoria, or an emotion card. This is an edgy, it has edginess to it, doesn’t it? It does. You know, and you say, whoa, we’re probably going to [00:09:00] disagree.
Okay, well, can we? First of all, are we as professionals able to talk about edgy things? What’s the blowback? What’s the risk? Like, you know, I, I was, I was honestly listened to Joe Rogan as I was working out yesterday and he, he really laid it out pretty nicely insofar as the different things that come up that are controversial and doctors per, he wasn’t talking about our topic, but doctors per se.
Are thrust into a state of fear when you get outside of the norm. And so you can’t have professionals talking about important topics and what you’re left with is non professionals talking about the topics and that’s helpful because they research and they get excited about a topic, but it leaves out the professionals won’t speak.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, and there’s some outstanding, and I don’t mean outstanding and, and. [00:10:00] Inestimable things there’s people that have gone to the edge, for example, medical doctors or doctors of osteopathy who have have talked about the COVID vaccines and that’s actually what they’re talking about. Yeah. Yeah.
And they haven’t done it. And of course he’s a, he’s a COVID skeptic in terms of vaccine skeptic, I believe. Rogan. Rogan.
Chris Gazdik: I wouldn’t say that. That was actually something that they said, right? You know, if you make a statement about it, you begin to be known as a covid vaccine skeptic rather than a skeptic of it does make them plastics.
Wait a minute. The plastics that are involved in the Mm-Hmm. , I can’t speak intelligently about it. The, you, you’re a skeptic of having mercury RX 10 in the vaccine. That’s what you’re talking about and wondering about. But if you mention that you become, boom, you’re a. You’re a full vaccine skeptic, and boom, you’re, now you’re labeled and done.
I would say he’s very [00:11:00] curious about a lot of things, honestly, and he talks about them. But he’s got, but there’s that, there’s that fear. So we’ll, we’ll sprinkle that in. What is professionalism? How does the mental health professional person need to interact with social issues we’re touching on? And, and how is mental health?
a part of professionalism, just your own individual mental health. So we’ll, we’ll kind of go in and around this. I think what I want to do is mix up my order a little bit and go to the example of Jordan Peterson, because I think that, you know, you already mentioned it, John, and there’s, there’s controversy with that.
So this actually comes straight from chat GPT, to be honest with you, right? Fully quoted from chat GPT. It gives a nice little. rendering of, of, of what happened with him, so Victoria, you’ll know. So, Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist, professor and public intellectual known for his work in psychology, philosophy, and political commentary.
So he gained [00:12:00] widespread attention for his vocal opposition to certain Canadian laws that he argued compelled speech particularly Bill C 16, I guess, which added gender identity or expression. So, as a prohibited ground of discrimination under the Canadian Human Rights Act. So. Peterson’s refusal to use gender neutral pronouns and his stance against what he perceived as compelled speech ignited controversy and debate, both in Canada and internationally.
So, in terms of professionalism, Peterson is often regarded as articulate, well informed, and passionate about his beliefs. He has a strong academic background, having taught at Harvard. Which I did not know, and the University of Toronto. So throughout his career, Peterson has demonstrated a commitment to academic integrity and intellectual rigor.
Publishing numerous research papers and books on topics ranging from personality, psychology to mythology. So, however, some critics have raised concerns about his rhetoric and public statements. Particularly regarding issues related to gender, identity, and [00:13:00] politics. While his willingness to engage in controversial topics has earned him both supporters and detractors, his approach to public discourse has often been characterized by a commitment to free speech and intellectual honesty.
So overall, Jordan Peterson’s career provides an interesting case study of professionalism in the context of academia, public discourse, and social activism. While opinions about him may vary wildly, his impact on public conversations surrounding issues of identity, speech, and individual rights cannot be denied.
So I added recently I actually saw him on, on, on Fox News tooling around and caught him like, Oh, this is the guy that somebody mentioned to me recently. And he’s been heavily in the news with the licensing board, which will Talk a little bit about boards and ethics today threatened his license and revoked it and whatnot and basically are making him attend, I think they’re called social media trainings as a result of, of his public demeanor position you know, [00:14:00] characteristic.
So that’s who Peterson
John-Nelson Pope: is. Freedom of speech is different in Canada and it varies by the provinces. And the other aspect of it is that we have a very strong, um, First Amendment right to free speech. That’s not here in the States, in the States, not necessarily so in Canada, a little more restricted or more restricted or it’s fluid.
Basically. It depends. For example, the province in in the, like in British Columbia or Alberta or Saskatchewan or what’s it? Anyway, those, those provinces are more conservative, whereas you get into Toronto he’s in Ontario, I believe in Ontario and that area, they have a very liberal view.
Well,
Chris Gazdik: and I think that the point that I would actually make there in discussion is, does [00:15:00] context matter in relationship to professionalism? And I think the answer to that is yes. You have to read the room, you know, your, your professional delivery of yourself to others, you know, that matters. Now, I’m not saying, you know, you, you change your views or you, you, you, you have pressure to believe something or say something that you don’t believe or, or, or feel, but, but you have to have a filter.
You have to have a freaking
Victoria Pendergrass: filter. Well, I mean, it’s like when we work with clients, right? You filter. Yeah. You, there are some clients I know. Okay. Like our couple today that we saw, I knew that I could be direct with both of them, you know, especially him and like, you know, I, cause we read the room, but then I
mean, I’m tend to be a pretty direct therapist for the most part, but there are some clients where I do kind of filter that a little bit more than I usually would, because I know that they’re not going to have.
The same reaction as like other clients. So yeah, like. Cause then it would be hella disrespectful and rude [00:16:00] of me to like,
to be like, super direct with some of my clients. Like they would take offense and they would probably never come see me again.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. And that’s okay. You know, I mean, that’s part of the art of what we do, right? You know, it, it, there’s, that’s why it’s called a practice. Okay. Go with that. What do you mean?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, in other words, there’s an art to it. And so you could be very Like a savant for example, and you would just say, you would be like young Sheldon. Okay. And say exactly what you think. You would not be a very good therapist in that sense. Right? Right. And so one has the nuance and to be able to read cues.
Mm-Hmm. body language and body language. And to be able to see if am I going to offend this person so much that I’m not going to be able to help the, the person and to be able to, to, to draw the person out, bring the person out to, to express what their concerns are.
Chris Gazdik: And you know, I’m going to make a bold statement, John, because I love [00:17:00] the blending of the science of what we do to the art of what we do.
And I’m sorry, but I feel like there’s a lot of professional struggle, particularly as it relates to an understanding of what and how professionalism is and works. And as a result, I might say that therapists, mental health professionals, struggle with the art. I really, I, I, I don’t, I, I Make a bold statement.
I’m hoping I’m not stepping on anybody’s toes, but I feel like there’s, there’s a, there’s a struggle there that people really struggle, particularly younger therapists in, in the art of what it is that we do, or
John-Nelson Pope: let’s say the therapist has very strong feelings is, is a, an agnostic or an atheist. And they feel very strong about that.
Well, down here. In the South Bible belt by the Bible belt, you’ve got to be very careful because you’re going to [00:18:00] offend people very easily in that area because that’s their core
Chris Gazdik: beliefs, right? I mean, yeah. When
Victoria Pendergrass: there’s a cultural norm, there’s literally a church on every corner,
John-Nelson Pope: but let’s say that person says something, you don’t believe in this or, okay, excuse me.
Oh,
Victoria Pendergrass: I feel like in
Chris Gazdik: Neil’s issues, I just, I just noticed outta the corner of my eye. John, sorry, I didn’t mean to distract you. No, no, no, no, no. It’s when Neil grabs a microphone, I’m kinda like, oh, okay. . He’s like, do you got something Neil? What you thinking? Yeah,
Neil Robinson: in a second. I’ll let John finish. I don’t want to interrupt him.
John-Nelson Pope: No, no.
Chris Gazdik: You, I think, I think he’s well interrupted now. Yeah. Well interrupted now. So.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I’m not offended. Good.
Chris Gazdik: Good. Not.
Neil Robinson: Well, I think you have to look at Jordan Peterson from the history of what’s going on, because I think it’s kind of unfair, Juan, that Chris, you’re bringing the topic up, not knowing the history and the stuff that comes with it.
Victoria, you don’t know anything about it. So I’m interested you don’t even know anything about him, which is weird. Yeah. But
John-Nelson Pope: [00:19:00] he’s
Chris Gazdik: a millennial. But hey, whoa, so, so, no,
Neil Robinson: wait, hang on. She’s a, she teasing. So hang on. She’s a full millennial female Uhhuh, and I bring that up because one of the things that Jordan Peterson came to basic when he started making it big, there’s a lot of stuff he said that a lot of guys really related to.
It was all about the ideas of what their gender roles are, the things that were going on in society, and how a lot of that on the male side was getting taken away from them. Okay. So that was where Jordan Peterson first came from. Okay. Now. When you look at how he got in trouble, he’s very respectful as a psychologist.
And he will, if someone wants a pronoun, he’ll understand them and he’ll call them what they want. His concern was there’s a law that had to say, now you have to say that pronoun or you’re going to go to jail or you will be, that’s his problem. He he’s a very. I understand empathetic, sympathetic guy when you look at what he does and how he does, and he is very good at it.
So his issue was the legal side. That’s like, I know you don’t like being called Vicki, so, right. Basically what would happen is if [00:20:00] Chris calls you that, the idea is the police could come in and arrest him because he called you something you didn’t like. That’s the problem that Jordan Peterson stood for.
Okay. The other thing, when you look at the complaints, I just want these couple things. The complaints when you look at all the complaints that were directed towards him were none of his clients. It was purely people complaining online. It was not people he worked with. It’s not his patients. It was purely online people complaining about things he said online, nothing to do with the patients he served.
He had no complaints from his actual patients. So the idea would be that Chris with this show, patients complain about you because of something you said on show 200. Now you’re going to get your license revoked or you have to go through social media training because of someone that doesn’t even know you, right?
Those are the things we’re doing. So
Victoria Pendergrass: that’s where his little, okay. I think there’s
Chris Gazdik: a lot of ins and outs about it. And thank you for that, Neil, becau
because I thought it was, it was honestly pretty neutral and I know that it has gotten controversial [00:21:00] and the main thing that I take from that is where you ended there, Neil, the, the, because I don’t purport to understand a lot about them.
I didn’t know about it. But the thing of it is, is when you come out and we have a platform here, you know, and he definitely is okay to have public conversations, which I applaud. That’s why I was saying, interestingly enough, you’ll have these conversations. Where professionals are afraid to engage for very real reasons.
And I’m not talking about cancel culture, I’m talking about even more than that. Like having your license revoked. Right, your livelihood in question. Or like, jail time. Yeah, serious.
John-Nelson Pope: There is, in Michigan, there was a student that refused to wasn’t going in with, in terms of the understanding of the gender, gender identity and and was perceived as being transphobic, for example, or [00:22:00] homophobic.
And she had deeply held religious views. She got kicked out of her out of her school. Yeah. Yeah. And so there, there was a sense, and it was a state school. And so there was a sense that she had had her rights abused. But that’s different than, let’s say her, there’s always a possibility she could go to another school.
And in fact, that’s what she did.
Chris Gazdik: Well, I think there’s a lot of examples and we live in an age of anxiety. Because of the age of, of information and we’ve talked about that on the show and this is manifesting itself all throughout this topic. So here, here’s what I want to do. I, I want to, I want to switch this up from, from this and then I, I promise we’ll come back to it because I’d like to have a healthy conversation about that very nature.
Neil, as you pointed out, some of where he comes from and why he’s doing what he’s doing and how that operates because. We have a [00:23:00] lot there in the context of what’s the professional role while being professional to engage in important discussions from a knowledgeable scientific perspective as much as the artistic perspective.
So I think we get. A really cool dialogue that we can have but before we do that, let’s let’s dive in a little bit to specifically professionalism the ins and outs what
it is how it works and and and what that how that Has evolved a little bit kind of as well. So how would you define this? What would you say?
What are some of the realities that? You know professionalism Is, because I don’t think people even think about this a whole lot, right? Do you think about it much? Have you, you know, do you, do you have thoughts about that? But I’m curious, particularly John, from an ethics and, and, and professor standpoint.
What is professionalism?
John-Nelson Pope: I think it’s, [00:24:00] my first thought is professionalism is a state of being. It’s very much the idea, and it’s an attitude. It is observing and abiding by a code of ethics and also the laws of the state. So it’s, it’s being very positive of, of the boundaries that we as pro has professional counselors or social workers or psychologists followers or psychiatrists.
It is also a dynamic because there’s changing. For example it was not so long ago. And within my professional lifetime that it was not illegal or unethical to sleep with your patients or your clients. In your time
Chris Gazdik: frame? Yeah. I’m that
John-Nelson Pope: old. Dang. Yeah. And
Chris Gazdik: that was all the way up to 19. I find that shocking.
John-Nelson Pope: Really? Yeah. You look at the Gloria tapes and with are you familiar [00:25:00] with that? Yes. Okay. All right. So you have Gestalt. Okay. You didn’t have to
Victoria Pendergrass: watch the Gloria tapes in, in,
John-Nelson Pope: But, but a couple of the of the therapists that were master therapists actually slept with Gloria, Gloria was a very troubled woman and they took advantage. They crossed boundaries. That was, they were upholding their professional standards at the time. And so there’s an aspect of it is progressing and.
Becoming more specific in terms of the protection of vulnerable of clients. So professionalism
Victoria Pendergrass: also
John-Nelson Pope: evolves. It
Chris Gazdik: also evolves. It does. That’s a, that’s a, it’s a fluid reality, isn’t it?
John-Nelson Pope: Right. And I think that’s where Jordan Peterson, for example. perhaps reflects something more of a, of a past standards in [00:26:00] terms of saying of Western civilization in terms of cultural roles, such as in traditional roles.
And so he’s interpreting that. So I
Chris Gazdik: just want to kind of say before we go too far into that, like everything you’re saying, like, wow, like you must have taught a class on this, right? Because that is really, you know, Steeped strongly in, I mean, good answer, right, Victoria, for what is professionalism, you know, I mean, that’s, that’s powerful.
So,
John-Nelson Pope: so it’s an interaction of the therapist with the, the code of ethics and trying to live it out the best that he or she can for the time that they’re, they’re practicing
Chris Gazdik: in. So in a simple way, you know, core components of this, you mentioned ethics and integrity. Reliability and accountability, their personality characteristics in this respect and courtesy.
That is an important, that’s the filter [00:27:00] competence and expertise. Like you need to know your
John-Nelson Pope: stuff. You don’t practice outside your, the bounds of your of your knowledge,
Chris Gazdik: right there. That’s part of our, our, okay. So as a newer clinician, Victoria, I’m really curious. It’s, you know, how much you’ve thought about the depthiness that professionalism really is.
I’m, I’m really curious about that. Not a lot. Okay. Not a lot. Okay. Well, shall we leave it there? Mic drop. I mean. Go further if you would, if you’re willing.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. Like one of the examples I was thinking of earlier that we, I know we disagree on is like, I text my clients. And I know, like, you don’t really do that.
And for me, it’s, like, I do it.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s the casualization. Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: but to me, it’s also, like, being part, [00:28:00] like, it’s just a way of communication. Like, I, there are some people that I email with, but for the most part, like, I tell my clients, like, if you need to get a hold of me, like, texting is The easiest way let’s just stay
Chris Gazdik: at a 10, 000 foot view though for yeah, you say not very much I’m curious about that if you’re willing can we dialogue a little bit about?
Thinking about professionalism being aware of that even what it is how you try to do it. Like yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: where’s your brain? I think about it. Okay throughout the day. I think about things that like Are not going to get me arrested or like my license revoked, right? Actually I was literally just explaining this sort of to a kid, like why we report people, safety issues and safety, but also I was honest with her.
I said also like it covers our ass. Like, and then that way, if like, we did our job by reporting and like, [00:29:00] you know, for your safety, but also like, there’s probably a small percentage of it. That’s like, There’s fear there. Yeah, because I don’t want to lose out like if that if something ha like if it’s the same reason that like Yeah, I think about it anytime someone comes to me with like suicidal ideations, anything like that.
I do think of like the professional side of like what my job is. What can I do to like keep this person safe? But I mean, there is a little voice in my head that’s also like, what do I need to do to make sure I don’t lose my license? Like if this person does.
John-Nelson Pope: And we tell our students graduate students at this time, because being a counselor or social worker or licensed.
Social Worker, Counselor, or Psychologist, you have to have at least a master’s level. Right. And on top of that is that you have to be able to document. And so you have to document at times that this is what you did. And that may cover CYA to make sure [00:30:00] that That let’s say there is a, an inquiry and I’ve had to deal with those inquiries in, in times with some of my students, right?
Chris Gazdik: So part of professionalism is paperwork, documentation, appropriate and clear presentation of your session and documenting what you, what strategies you use.
John-Nelson Pope: And let’s say if you were worried. And so the client comes back and says, I’m going to sue you and I’m going to, I will report you to the board because I had to go to the hospital and I was in I was literally incarcerated for 72 hours.
And of course they’re not incarcerated, but that was, they they lost
Victoria Pendergrass: control. Right. Well, see, and I guess to ultimately answer your question, I think that I think about it enough. To do my job, but I don’t sit there and like delve, dive into it. [00:31:00] Right. Like I’m not lost in thought on professionalism like in between clients.
Now, I have come to you, I think, with a couple of questions as far as like, you know. We’ve talked about it. You know, like, what do I do here? What’s the best practice there?
John-Nelson Pope: But she won’t come to me because she knows how rigid I am. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Hey, I asked, John and I had a whole conversation about. Cussing. Cussing.
The other. Like a week or so
John-Nelson Pope: ago. But that was more
Victoria Pendergrass: theological. Yeah. That was more, yeah. But I mean. But there are a lot of. I’m not like sitting in deep thought about like the right thing to do professionally. Like I just. I want you. I
Chris Gazdik: want to. I want to encourage you to do so. I do. I want to encourage you to do so.
And the reason why is because being thoughtful about that helps the artistic side of what it is that we do to the science. Like a for instance that I’ll give you as an example, you know, years later now I feel That I have a [00:32:00] more professional basis and credibility to be able to say that this guy was crazy, but I came across a therapist who would refuse to have any physical touch with a, with a client.
And I’m not talking about hugging. I’m talking about even shaking hands. Like they were that you talk about rigid, John, and he was a younger fella too, by the way. But,
John-Nelson Pope: you know, so he had probably some unresolved psychos,
Chris Gazdik: sexual, psychos, psychotic, something, you know, I possibly, you know, but I bet that was his standard.
That was part of what he felt was professionalism. I would argue and, and there’s, there’s too rigid, too loose, you know, too much, too little, you know, there’s the sweet spot that we’re looking at by
John-Nelson Pope: the way, as far as uh, the ACA, the American Counseling Association code of ethics has a whole section that we’re supposed to know about texting and emailing and all of that.
Which gives us some, some, some guys.
Chris Gazdik: Also
Victoria Pendergrass: hasn’t been [00:33:00] updated since 2014. I was going to say, I was
Chris Gazdik: gonna make that point. That’s hard for codes of ethics in different disciplines to keep up. Like, yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: it is being updated. Is it?
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. Good. Yeah. Well, I mean, It needs to be. But, and, I mean, I even remember going my ethics class and other, like, my intro to psych, intro to counseling class and whatnot, when we talked about, like, you know, I mean, I remember having conversations about, like, you know, you don’t need to sit with your arms crossed, and, like, you don’t need to cross your legs, and, you need, your body needs to present as it’s open, and, like, crossing your arms seems as if you’re closed off, or, like, if you’re a female, and, Crossing your legs, like how you’re doing or like crossing your, like, you know, like how, you know, and so, and we did the whole spiel about like, not looking at your watch, being able to like, have a, that’s why I have a clock in my office, like I’m aware it’s kind of behind the client so I can [00:34:00] like, but you know,
John-Nelson Pope: part of that’s technique and part of that is in skills, but part of that is also being able to manage your hour.
Better.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, yeah. Yeah. But also, I mean, I just remember having this whole like conversation, not just in that class, but honestly throughout. I’ve had some other experiences in grad school about professionalism, like Victoria. I
Chris Gazdik: wanna make the point that it is very clear to me. Yeah. You have thought about this stuff way more than way more
Victoria Pendergrass: as I’m
Chris Gazdik: talking about it.
You do? Yes. A lot. Do you? Do you? Yeah, sometimes I get called a lot. Listen, we’re blowing the brains apart from the listeners right now because it’s, it is your therapist. Think about all these things we, and that’s a part of, I think you do, and they
John-Nelson Pope: have to manage to listen intently so that, in other words, they’re not thinking ahead.
Right. So there’s a lot,
Chris Gazdik: a lot going on that goes into this. It’s amazing to me the, the lack of belief or direct thought or [00:35:00] knowledge about this topic of professionalism, when in reality. We just, I think I accurately confronted you, Victoria, that people are aware of this, but, but you don’t even know it.
And if you’re not purposeful about it, and as you say, John, match it to the code of ethics, which is the standard bearer for a professional’s presentation, behavior, engagement, then, then you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re dangerously falling into on a wearingly. Blowing yourself up with
John-Nelson Pope: this, but by the way, when I, when I taught, I taught all those course, I taught every course and part of that is, is that I, I did not talk about, well, you, you’re locking yourself apart or anything like that.
I was mostly in, in interested in how well one listens and reflects back the other aspect of it is. That when I was, when I taught ethics, the first thing I said is that
[00:36:00] if you’re tempted to get involved with your client and you, you do this and you’re physically attracted to that person, do not succumb to that.
Don’t do it. And so that’s the first thing you said in ethics.
Chris Gazdik: Don’t do it. I don’t even have a category for that. Okay, man. I’m aware of the time it’s blown by us. Okay. So let me take a quick break and. And when we come back to this topic, let’s try to be quick on the topics of what is professionalism. And then, cause I want to really be able to get back to the conversation.
I think it’s important for professionals to think about and for the public to think about how do professionals engage with these, with these issues. Okay. That being said, we do have a sponsor, John, whom is a friend of the show horizon. Zzzz. Plural or singular?
John-Nelson Pope: Horizon. Horizon
Chris Gazdik: Bank. I think it’s singular, but it should be plural.
It’s Horizon. First Horizon Bank. First Horizon Bank. Through a therapist’s office. Out of Memphis. Victoria is [00:37:00] supposed to know this.
John-Nelson Pope: And 400 and some branches.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m letting John take this one today.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, you’re out
John-Nelson Pope: friendly hometown hometown um, banker. They still have real people and it’s not just a kiosk in their, in their banks.
Chris Gazdik: It’s all true. First Horizon Bank is a sponsor of the show. We appreciate you being on board with us. We enjoy being able to, to, to present you to, through therapeutic tribes around the, the lands. Find them out. Check them out. They are really a bank that cares about financial literacy, helping you out with all of your banking needs.
Mhm. So. Back to like, and like I said, let’s try to be brief because I want to get to you know, back around to some of these other things that are, that are important. So we, we mentioned some of the shifts that happen. There is a fluid reality and yes, Victoria, there is some intergenerational impact. We have a
dynamically interesting, never seen [00:38:00] before in the world reality where four generations now are starting to be in the workplace.
You know, where baby boomers are still around and us Gen Xers are taking over, you know, all of the, the decisions in higher end positions, I guess, right? Millennials are right in there with us and Gen Zers young, but still coming kind of long. So we’re blending a lot of different things. Also in the age of anxiety, by the way.
So there’s shifting kind of going on with technology and communications. There’s shifting going on with casualization. That’s a thing you know, for better or worse, however you feel about this or how you see this, that’s why we want to talk, you know, the, the components of values and what you hold. Near and dear to your heart in involves the shifting of, of professionalism.
I do text Victoria. I have a personal preference to not use my personal phone because it’s a preservation reality, but, but technology, I mean, we just [00:39:00] exploded with video conferencing in our field, which needs to be a whole different show in and of itself, because I have a lot of opinions about that.
Victoria Pendergrass: A hundred percent.
But I mean even like the you talk about like the casualization of things how many conversations have we had about like dress? Oh, it’s important and you know like What you wear and how you present yourself and like even things like that like all that to me I’m gonna tell you like all that falls I think in the line of like professionalism absolutely I mean I’ll be honest with you I’ve totally worn like this at this shirt specifically with like a pair of leggings and now I was seeing a kid that day and that was the only person I was seeing.
Was that kid? And so typically
John-Nelson Pope: I would have sent her back
Chris Gazdik: squirming over here. I
John-Nelson Pope: ran, I ran, I ran a a counseling clinic for, for, for two years and we had, [00:40:00] Folks wearing gaiters and flip flops. Yeah, I
Chris Gazdik: have a pair of jeans that I wear. You sent them home? I sure did. And I’m glad.
Victoria Pendergrass: I also think it is like, and see this is where we might differ a little bit. Is like, I also think it’s like, okay, maybe this is me coming from a school.
Is like, it’s, I want, I want to be relatable to my clients. So, for example, when I worked in a school, I worked in a title one. School, which is a low poverty school and
Chris Gazdik: low poverty, meaning that low income, low income poverty.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. So title one school and and if I would have shown up as a school based therapist and heels, dress pants, and a blazer.
And like a dressy shirt, those kids would not have talked to me.
John-Nelson Pope: In other words, if [00:41:00] you dressed up like Taylor Swift used to dress up, you’d
Chris Gazdik: be Okay. I think it’s about your audience. It’s about the art of what we’re doing and being
Victoria Pendergrass: aware. And I get like private, like what we do is different. Obviously we, we’re not in like the same population.
We deal with multiple different types of like demographics and different people. And so I understand like You know, like, I think you made a comment one time, like, you know, we might get, like, you get everywhere from, like, doctors and lawyers as clients to, like, people who don’t have jobs, or can’t have a job, or whatever.
Like, you get everyone in between. And so I think, and I think sometimes that’s, I think it’s, it becomes, I, maybe I think too much about it. It becomes a difficult decision for me sometimes.
John-Nelson Pope: Rule of thumb. Is that I tell my students or told my students was that you step that you dress one step above What most of your clients dress like oh, that’s a great [00:42:00] rule and so in other words like I wear a tie I know that’s way too It’s not formal for a lot of people, but I typically I won’t wear ratty jeans or anything like that.
I wil
Victoria Pendergrass: will wear jeans. I will wear jeans, you still wear a button up and a tie. And a tie. And a sweater if it’s cold.
John-Nelson Pope: Exactly, exactly. But it’s better to, to, to be careful. And so that’s an aspect of not that you’re better than, than your clients. Not that at all. You’re relatable, but at the same time, there’s this aspect where you have skills and the people in the clients relate better to that.
Chris Gazdik: Okay, we’re going to, we’re going to move on a little bit. I know you told us to go click. I know, right? That’s working out, isn’t it? That’s working out well. The thing of it is, is let’s be aware of these things because they’re. We just spent a lot of time on just [00:43:00] one, but there are several and many aspects of this.
You mentioned cursing or not cursing. You mentioned, you know, agnostic and personal beliefs with religion. You, you, you know, you mentioned. Timeliness where we, no, one’s even said anything about timeliness, which is a big part of professionalism, you know, and I’m not making a judgment either way, either you’re super on point timely or you’re relaxed.
I, you know, I’ve done both. I, the thing is, is in Victoria, I’ll say again, I have thought about these things over the course of years and I’ve noticed a personal shift in different ways, just with myself. We need to be aware of this topic.
John-Nelson Pope: And this practice, you’re talking about practice in terms of timeliness, is that sometimes it’s very appropriate and most appropriate if you do go over with your client instead of cutting it off at that person that’s in the middle of on purpose and you, and you go and you apologize to your [00:44:00] next client and say, or a patient, and then you, and you say this is that you had to go over or do some.
The
Chris Gazdik: challenges that we have with this, you know, life work balance and social media. Oh gosh. This, the implications of professionalism with today’s day and age with social media and technology is just, you know, huge. And, and there’s a big factor that I want to point out of trust in, in the level of societal level of trust and rapport that, that happens.
I mean, we are a professional. And honestly, guys, I make the bold statement that we tend to not trust professionals as much like we used to. It’s a big factor that has shifted. So, so there’s lots of things going on there. Developing
professionalism. John, this is in your alley, right? You know, the education, education, education and training, training, training.
And that’s why
John-Nelson Pope: you you have the, the [00:45:00] certified units, educational units that, that you have to do. And for. When you were in an LPC LCMHCA, it was how many hours? 3,
Chris Gazdik: 000. A lot. 3, 000. 3,
John-Nelson Pope: 000 hours post graduate.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you don’t think about it a lot, Victoria, because it’s been drilled in you so much, it just drives you nuts.
John-Nelson Pope: But you also had to take extra continuing ed hours than, let’s say, now that you’re, yeah, it was 40 hours. And I’m a supervisor. I have to take extra hours on
Chris Gazdik: top of that. And so you listening public understand, we’re talking about ethics training. Like we drill this and drill this and drill this every single time.
Every
John-Nelson Pope: time you do a renewal, you have to take ethics courses. You have to have
Chris Gazdik: ethics. So John, give us a little bit of a taste, just a taste. Victoria, you and I are not allowed to comment. He gets full speech so we can get to the, the ethics board. [00:46:00] You know, the role of the ethics board, what ethics boards do, what they are and how they, how they operate.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, the ethics boards and they have them for all the for all the professions, including substance use and basically what the ethics board is, is that it’s a way to, to monitor the and help monitor the behavior and regulate the behavior. Of the of the practitioners, in other words, of the state
Chris Gazdik: of the state for the state has an
John-Nelson Pope: ethics.
Each state has an ethics board and each state has in those boards, they are made of people that are professionals. A lot of a lot of more professionals with doctorates, a lot of more professionals with master’s degrees. My mom was
Chris Gazdik: one. Okay. The
John-Nelson Pope: other, and the other is that they have lay people on the ethics boards.
I did not know that. Yes, they do. Yeah. They’re on all the, the ethics [00:47:00] boards in the state of North Carolina. They have civilians, so to speak, regular
Chris Gazdik: people, regular people.
John-Nelson Pope: Now they’re well
Chris Gazdik: informed. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. They, they become well informed. And a
John-Nelson Pope: lot of times they’re lawyers or something like that, but but what’s their purpose?
Their purpose is to make sure that no clients are
Chris Gazdik: harmed. They are not here for the professionals. I want you to understand, listening, you listening. They are here, ethics boards, primarily for you to protect the public, you from us, actually. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds crazy. But I’ve also heard over my time, some very concerning things about professionalism from the clinicians are doing,
John-Nelson Pope: crossing some boundaries also having and, and selling things that they’re not supposed to sell not books, [00:48:00]
Chris Gazdik: like bartering for services.
Bartering is bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I turned
Chris Gazdik: bribes and that sort of, I had, I had to turn down years ago still, but I, I’ll never forget, I had to turn down front row freaking seats to go to the
Charlotte Bobcats game. It was the Bobcat at the time of an NBA basketball, like front row floor tickets.
Oh, fraternization. The, they can’t accept those ,
John-Nelson Pope: you know, you know, even, even even boundaries, crossing boundaries of somebody, well, the, you know, we’re gonna ha go to a barbecue. Well, you have to be careful about that.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I’ve been to a funeral. I’ve been to. So going to funerals, I think are very appropriate.
Yeah. Okay. Again, professionalism, attendance. So, so you have to make so many pieces of, but you can,
John-Nelson Pope: what you can do is you can contact the board to sort of give you a ruling as to whether this is out of bounds. Right.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yes, they are there to answer your questions. I
Chris Gazdik: mean, yeah, they’re there for [00:49:00] us too. That’s
John-Nelson Pope: right.
The ACA does that. But I, I know
Victoria Pendergrass: that, I don’t know about L. C. U. Grace,
Chris Gazdik: your people, L. C. S. W.
John-Nelson Pope: They do. What did you
Chris Gazdik: say? They do. Your people. What do we do? I tuned out. You have, you
John-Nelson Pope: have people to give you legal advice. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: We have
John-Nelson Pope: further and certainly with psychiatrists
Chris Gazdik: and yeah. So, so let’s, let’s transition to this and then we’ll get back to right.
So. I, I was curious, I didn’t want to leave this off because I think it’s, it’s really important to realize. So we’re talking about it in our field, but professionalism exists in banking, in lawyer ethics, and, you know, in police officers have, have professionalism. They have to engage to understand, right? So, so things that really impact this, you know, mental health might.
Be on the top of the list. Can I say that again? Bold statement, like mental health. I [00:50:00] think our own, the person’s own, the police officers, mental health. Well, can I say
John-Nelson Pope: that we are one of the first professions that really had a code of ethics that would be in terms of, yeah, overall now there’s, there’s like the Hippocratic oath, the medical do no harm and all that.
But we also have a non malfeasance is as well in terms of that. We don’t harm our, our clients or our patients, right? I did a little research. MSWs have the same thing. You would do nothing to harm your
Chris Gazdik: client. It’s in our code. Yeah. So the thing that I’m making a point now in that is to realize, like, if you think about things like your productivity and your performance on your job, the interpersonal relationships, all the office politics.
Sorry, hold on the attendance in the punctuality at meetings on time for work [00:51:00] schedules, working from home. This is a new reality. These things are fluid decision making and judgment, like your level of anxiety, your level of depression, your sleeplessness because you’re worried about your kid at bootcamp in the Navy right now in wellness, self
John-Nelson Pope: care.
And let’s say if you, let’s say you, you are, everything’s. Kind of falling apart or something like that, going through a divorce and going through a divorce, or you’re like, you’re starting to drink more, or something like that. I’m not saying that about you, but you start having that be and it starts to make you an impaired practitioner.
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . You need to self-report and if you don’t do it. One of us will need to first talk to the person that is impaired and urge them to go into it. And then at that point, then do a report it
Chris Gazdik: to the board. Recovery programs for you know, airplane pilots that are engaged in [00:52:00] this nursing programs, right?
It is like
John-Nelson Pope: I’ve done it for nursing, for physicians,
Victoria Pendergrass: as have I, right? Because I think the thing is, is if you’re not taking care of your mental health, the lines become blurred. In professionalism.
Chris Gazdik: It gets lost,
Victoria Pendergrass: I would say. Right, and so, if I’m not taking care of my mental health, and I’m, whatever, I might be more tempted to accept the front row seat tickets.
Right. To the, to the vodcast game. Or I might be more willing to, like, meet up a client at a bar. Or something or like, you know, or do and then that, yeah, then you start blurring lines, you start blurring boundaries. And then, but if I’m able to take care of my mental health and I’m staying on top of things and I’m being aware of things, then I can actually acknowledge like, okay, this is not a good idea.
Like this is crossing a boundary. This is crossing a line, like, and judgment. Yeah. And then I can also seek out
Chris Gazdik: help. First responders,
John-Nelson Pope: first responders helpers are all caretakers [00:53:00] are all particularly vulnerable to crossing boundaries and crossing the line is
Chris Gazdik: intense, traumatic realities. Yeah, like the person’s mental health is a huge reality, you know your professional image We touched on being fearful that I want to get back to that like, you know your reputation the the the culture and support In the workplace in the environment that you’re in having the tough boss.
There’s you know stigmas and stereotypes That that that play into like these are all things that That really impact your ability to hold a standard of professionalism.
John-Nelson Pope: We, I had a student who worked and she was, she was working as an intern. We had to release her from the program because she crossed boundaries and she talked about.
Clients out in a public space and so, and what they got it, and they got it on camera.
Chris Gazdik: [00:54:00] Oh, listen, I tell you, God bless you guys who work on the boards all throughout the country. I don’t, I don’t think I could do it, John. I don’t, I don’t think I could be. Cause I’m passionate about this and I hear stuff like that.
And I’m like, dude, I would be hammering people. You can’t do some of this stuff that people do anyway.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, and you were talking about the, the, I had her make a complaint on my license. Because, the person, the student, the former student, and so they had to do an investigation on
Chris Gazdik: me. You’ve been investigated!
Oh, that’s never fun. Oh, yeah. I, it was, no. It was okay, yeah. Well, I mean, you didn’t
John-Nelson Pope: do anything wrong, so. No, no, it didn’t even go to where it was reviewed, necessarily,
Victoria Pendergrass: but. Yeah. And also, like, an interesting fact is that I don’t know people can do, like, I don’t know how it is for your licensure, but for our licensure, Anybody can look us up.[00:55:00]
They can go to the North Carolina Board of Licensed Clinical Mental
John-Nelson Pope: Health Counselors.
NCBLCMHC. Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: and you can like type in my name, Victoria Pendergrass, or you can type in my location, and it’ll bring up like if I’ve ever had any like things brought up against me, if I’ve ever had any, like if I’ve ever been investigated. We’ve done
John-Nelson Pope: that for for adjuncts. For teaching, because we’ve had to, we’ve had some somebody was a psychologist that taught for us and he had had a problem.
Chris Gazdik: So John, what is your role in the culture wars nowadays when we talk about? Things in schools, and mass shootings, and police beatings, and gender bathroom issues, and women in the [00:56:00] workplace, and, and, and Where’s your role? My
John-Nelson Pope: role as a professional is that I do not share. That, that particularly what my feelings are, what my thoughts are about.
People do not know whether I’m a Republican or a Democrat or an independent. I’m an independent by the way. But now you know, but you’re not disclosing that and I don’t disclose that because that’s not the point. I’m there for my client not. And so that’s how I, it’s not about you. It’s not about me. And I work with a lot of people that are LBGTQ.
I, I,
Chris Gazdik: I, I, I, I, I,
John-Nelson Pope: I, I, I, I, I,
Chris Gazdik: I, I, I, I, I, I
John-Nelson Pope: also have a difference that I also have to be able to also rip. I, I am forthcoming and say, I’m an ordained Presbyterian minister been so since [00:57:00] 1940 49, the 79. We didn’t even talk
Chris Gazdik: about self disclosure yet.
John-Nelson Pope: So, and that’s an an aspect. I said, do you still feel comfortable?
I treat you where you are basically. I, and so I’m very full do that, but that person will never know. What I believe
Chris Gazdik: politically, okay, you’re talking about in session in session. Yeah, okay Victoria, yeah, what is your role? Society in society in life, I mean maybe even just as a personal citizen when Conversations come up in Jim Bob down the street knows that you’re a therapist What do you think about the lady who was the mom just?
Put in demand slaughter found guilty for her son shooting four people at school. What is your role? That’s in
John-Nelson Pope: Boston, Michigan, right?
Chris Gazdik: I forget. Yeah, sounds
Victoria Pendergrass: right. My role is to keep my mouth shut because I like to talk about the fact that I [00:58:00] wear hats, right? Like when I’m here in the office, I have my therapist hat on, but when I leave this office, that therapist hat comes on and I wear the hat of a mom, of a wife, of a friend, of a daughter, of a.
Sister of a who, whatever. But like. And then if someone has a therapy question for me, honestly, I might answer it a little bit, but I, I refer a lot of people. I’m like, you know what, if you have a question, go, go seek your own therapy. I’m not. Ask your therapist in session. Yeah, ask your therapist in session because it is not my job.
Like. It’s scary. And plus, like, I think for me, that’s a level of professionalism. Like, I’m not here. Okay. Like, for example, my sister in law is a doctor. I could go to her every time I have a medical question. But I’m not doing that. Like, I will just call my own doctor, or message my own doctor. Or they lose
Chris Gazdik: professional, they lose objectivity.
Right,
Victoria Pendergrass: and so like, you know, I’m not, [00:59:00] she’s also not a doctor when we’re opening Christmas presents. Right, she’s a sister. She’s my sister
Chris Gazdik: in
John-Nelson Pope: law, you know. relative that is a has a substance use disorder. And people will come to me in the family and and talk to me and I say, and I’m going, yeah, I can only relate to that person as a relative, not as a, I mean, it’s a
Victoria Pendergrass: different I
John-Nelson Pope: can’t do that.
But
Chris Gazdik: I want to get us to think about the difficulty. That there is certainly in our personal circles, by the way, I’m going to fully agree like Victoria in a personal circles. You want to be careful about that. You can’t be object in delivering a professional service. That’s what we do with therapy. And, and, and john, you did a good job of describing like in the therapy session.
There is in this age of information that we’re in though, right? Like Jordan Peterson. It’s like Jordan Peterson. That’s why I started [01:00:00] us off with that. And, and, and I want it. To sort of trigger thoughtfulness about really important issues that you, Mr. or Mr. Psychiatrist, or you, Mr. or Mr. Family and marriage and family therapist have a place in writing text articles or good sound professional.
content to help.
John-Nelson Pope: Personally, I think that the board in the of the province, the provincial board for psychologist overstepped their boundaries because he has, he has been very mean with Jordan Peterson because he basically has been able to, which AI
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Well, and, but you say that you use it
Chris Gazdik: [01:01:00] Oh yeah, whenever I pop up, the whole thing is so,
John-Nelson Pope: but he’s been very open about what his beliefs are, but he doesn’t let that blend into his actual, actual
Victoria Pendergrass: practice.
Again, what Neil said, none of his clients were any of the people that complained. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, so so it’s it’s just a question. I’m throwing out there for us in our consciousness So we’re gonna wind down today and we’re not gonna come to conclusion in it and an answer But you know me as an author I I I’m I face this I don’t want thought police Right.
Oh, yeah, it’s terrible. It’s terrible. And and and that’s the that’s the challenge I mean,
making decisions about mental health. People were talking about mental health, using words like narcissism and narcissists, way
Victoria Pendergrass: off base trigger.
If someone tells me, if I hear the word [01:02:00] trigger, like, Oh my gosh, I’m like, you don’t even know what a trigger is.
John-Nelson Pope: Look, do you even know what narcissists,
Chris Gazdik: right? We do. Okay. My point is we do. And. There’s a risk and a balance with professionalism and our role in society with the science base of what we come from mixed with the art of what we’re doing.
It’s a, it’s a great challenge. It’s a, it’s a great challenge, but when I’m doing other podcasts or I’ve been thoughtful about on this show itself and, and when I’m doing presentations and talks out to, you know, members of businesses and communities like, I am aware that I am providing a, not a therapy service, but a mental health awareness, reality to the group, psychoeducation, psychoeducation, for sure.
As a matter of fact, I hope I’ve triggered your thoughts out there about this. We’re going to end triggered, but, but, [01:03:00] but I want to end on that, John, that very point, because that’s, that’s where I think is, is it occurs to me as you said that. That is a foothold that we can step into when we have an opportunity to engage in a helpful way with policy, culture wars, real concerns about litigation, and all these types of things.
Psychoeducation. Education, education, education. Get information out to the public about narcissism so it’s not misused in the term. Help. With what you know about just the science, not so much opinion, but just the science. Like, we have a role there.
John-Nelson Pope: Exactly. We have a role. We have a role. It’s troubled. 30 years ago, there was this idea of, of child abuse and there was the satanic rituals and all of that, and there was recovered [01:04:00] memories and that sort of thing.
We had an ethical obligation to To also confront our fellow practitioners. Oh, yeah. Who bought into that. 100 percent 100
Chris Gazdik: percent 100 percent Colts, we didn’t talk, there’s a lot of applications. I’m going to end on the YouTube comment. We should
Victoria Pendergrass: do an episode on the
Chris Gazdik: Colts. Oh, we have. Have we? Yeah. I must have been before my time.
Yeah, before your time. We’ll do it again in a different, redo content a lot. It’s funny about this show. Well, there’s, because there’s so much. The comment on YouTube that we’re going to do a mic drop on, you ready? Okay. Sure. Before I say this I will say be well, stay well, we’ll see you next week. Okay.
Bye all. Comments guys. The comment on YouTube is, I want to be on one of those boards. Take care guys. Well. Go for
Victoria Pendergrass: it. If that’s what you
Chris Gazdik: want to do, let me know. All right. Let John know. He’ll put you on there, put you in [01:05:00] contact. Take care. Stay well. We’ll see you soon.