Dive into our last month of podcast episodes where we further discuss our latest thought-provoking episodes. In “The Adderall Epidemic,” we uncover the truth behind Adderall usage, its societal impacts, and whether it’s a valid response to ADHD. Then, in “Culture Wars and Professionalism: Jordan Peterson,” we delve into the evolving landscape of professionalism amidst cultural shifts and technological advancements, alongside insights into mental health’s role in this domain. Finally, “Compassion Confusion” unravels the intricate dynamics of codependency and compassion, offering eye-opening reflections on healthy boundaries and attachment styles.
Tune in to the February Month in Review Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
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Episode #264 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is through a therapist’s eyes and you are about to hear the Fri or the Friday, the February month in review. This is Leap Day. Happy Leap Day, Neil. Woohoo. Happy
Neil Robinson: leap day. No, it’s not Wednesday. Gosh, I’m all sorts of messed up today. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: So if you’re watching on the YouTube live or check out the show on YouTube, you will see a different face.
This is Mr. Jack. Did I get it right? Fortenberry, right? That’s right. I nailed it. Neil, good job. You are proud. Very proud.
Jack Fortenberry: All right. Or as my wife says in a British accent, Fortinbree. That’s how it’s supposed to be. So, so
Neil Robinson: you’re a cheese man?
Jack Fortenberry: Cheese man. That was so,
Neil Robinson: let’s just stop. Sorry, dad jokes. I’ve been a dad too long.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, man. Listen, so this is February the 29th and we are recording the February month in [00:01:00] review. Usually we have a panel of therapists that hang out with us and this is a month in review where Neil comes out of the curtain and hangs out with us to review the shows. And usually Adam is with us. We have Jack here while Adam is out.
Appreciate you joining us, Jack, for sure. Got the book that is out. You gotta have to check the cover. We gotta do some promo stuff With this, we’ve got through a therapist eyes re-understanding your marriage and becoming your Best Self as a spouse. If I’m correct about that, I’m still
Neil Robinson: getting used to it.
I, I don’t know. It’ll take you about three months to get the right, right title, but I still haven’t seen the title or the, oh, you haven’t seen the cover. I haven’t seen the cover. I’ve yet, I’ve yet to see it. You’ve, you’ve like, you’ve mentioned it so many times in all the different calls we have, but I have yet to see it.
So,
Chris Gazdik: so I apologize. I am so, well, I was going to do a thing of like choosing and like do a survey thing. And I just skipped all that because I’m like. I know what I want it to be. It’s going to be that. Just
Neil Robinson: pick what you want. Yeah, just go with it.
Chris Gazdik: The color is green and there is some serious story behind [00:02:00] the color choice.
So I’ll just leave it at that for now. So we’re excitement building for that this year, guys. You will be hearing a little bit about it and seeing it come out around November. Kind of really, really excited about that project. So this is a YouTube, so we need you to subscribe, click the buttons, do the things.
Neil, you know John always wants how many stars? I think he wants five
Neil Robinson: stars on Apple iTunes. He does, yes. Five star review. And Spotify, make sure you follow and Listen to your preferred podcast, whatever the term is that that Jack’s better at than I am wherever
Chris Gazdik: you get your podcast. Yes, Apple iTunes.
You can actually use listen, your job is to help us do that because that helps us get found with all the algorithms. If you enjoy the content, we really ask that you step in to do that. It’s very, very helpful. Contact that through a therapist eyes is the way to contact us. Listen, Jack, in the beginning of every show, I say it for a very real reasons.
Plural because I believe in that, that this is the human experience and we do endeavor [00:03:00] to figure this stuff out together. So I, I appreciate you joining us to, to accomplish that task. Absolutely. I’m glad to be here. All right. Do you know that we have also a show sponsor? It’s a bank, I believe. It is a bank.
Impressive. Neil, who’s our sponsor? Where are they from? And what’s the deal with that?
Neil Robinson: First Horizon Bank. They are a branch in the Southeast America. They have 330 plus locations and they’re out of Memphis, Tennessee, but they are basically a big time bank with a good old local feel. You know, it’s very comfortable going in.
They really strive to help people understand their financial literacy. So if you’re looking for a place to kind of get away from the big banks, they’re And you want to have the same services, but better customer support. Go check out first rise and bank
Chris Gazdik: did that. So, well, it’s like,
Jack Fortenberry: it’s like he’s done.
I mean, I actually have it. So that is,
Chris Gazdik: that’s impressive. That is the first
Jack Fortenberry: nailed it. First, first try.
Chris Gazdik: We do have to pay the bills guys. We have a buy a cup of coffee on the website that really helps us out to really five dollars a [00:04:00] month. It pays for stuff. We do need that. I don’t mind saying that.
Lastly, also to cover angles we have talked about before. Haven’t highlighted it all the time, but a shout out to read Ferguson. He is the creator of the intro music, and we appreciate Reed from doing that. He does private shows, personal events, so go out, check him out when he’s out at various establishments.
And, yeah, Reed’s awesome. Spells his name weird though on the com, so it’s R E I D T Ferguson F E R G U S O N. com Check him out on Instagram and hire him. He’s awesome. So, yeah Jack, let’s, let’s, let’s pay that bill, too, and talk about, like, who are you, what do you do, we want to check people out your podcast, you, I, you know, I know you got a lot of ideas, cool stuff about podcasting, so, what’s up?
Yeah,
Jack Fortenberry: so basically, what I do by day is different from what I do, you know, with the personal business side things. Superhero kind of [00:05:00] thing? Little bit, I wear a cape, but it’s okay, I get called names, but whatever. Like cheese man or something?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Haha, sorry.
Jack Fortenberry: Sorry. So, so I, I’m a programmer, I’m an application developer by day.
And then my side business, I help particularly small business owners create effective content for marketing and to increase their brand, generate leads, all that fun stuff. So. Yeah you can check out my website to learn
Chris Gazdik: more@cdpmediainc.com, and the website
Jack Fortenberry: is www at CDP Media Inc. That’s, he said that way too fast.
www.cdpmediainc.com.
Chris Gazdik: Alright, we’ll leave that be to what it is, cdp.com. CDP media inc.com. C Okay. Yeah, . All right. Here we go. Off we go. So Adam loves to create a cool segment that we do. It’s been fun. I’ve learned about some trippy things, Jack. Have you ever heard of my favorite, you know where I’m going, Neil, right?
Knight fighting. That was, [00:06:00] like, he brought up knight fighting one time, and we went down a rabbit hole talking about, like, literally people that dress up like knights and fight. It’s really, like, cool. Oh, yeah.
Jack Fortenberry: Have you heard of this?
Neil Robinson: LARPing. No, no, no. LARPing with real weapons and real armor. Yeah,
Jack Fortenberry: like for real.
That sounds very sketchy.
Neil Robinson: No, it’s legit. There’s
Jack Fortenberry: links. Pretty
Chris Gazdik: amazing.
Neil Robinson: Yeah, I don’t know where it is, but I think there was even a show about it. But yeah, these guys drop in medieval armor and do the whole thing. I don’t think the, like, swords are like 100 percent sharpened. So they’re a little dull. But yeah, you’re literally getting hit with like swords and maces.
Axes
Jack Fortenberry: and maces. I will not be doing that.
Chris Gazdik: It’s pretty amazing. And actually, it’s not overseas. You know, that is actually local. I have actually Since we did that show neil I don’t know if I can say that on air. I can guarantee that it is actually a local group and stuff that, that, that, that does this stuff too.
It’s, it’s pretty, yeah, yep, yep, yep. Pretty neat. So, down the rabbit hole with Jack, I guess, is what we’re going to try this week. Have you got a, have you got a rabbit hole for us?
Jack Fortenberry: Yeah. And this [00:07:00] kind of goes along with, you know, what I do with CDP media, but I’ve been looking a lot into neuro marketing or do you know what neuro marketing is?
Chris Gazdik: Ooh, that’s a good word combination. That’s for sure. It is.
Jack Fortenberry: It’s, it’s I think it’s not, I mean, it’s not new, you know, marketers have been using psychological tactics for a long, long time. Yeah. But we’re starting to, you know, Hook people up to EEG machines and, and then show them different ads and see how the brain reacts to certain things and neural neuroscientists are studying it even more and more.
So it’s becoming kind of a big deal and it’s, it’s kind of concerning. And I would want to talk to you a little bit about ethics maybe. And, and what do you think of like a word that I learned not subliminal, but midliminal I
Chris Gazdik: don’t even know what that is. Midliminal?
Jack Fortenberry: Yeah. So subliminal is, has been outlawed.
They actually passed laws on subliminal messaging and marketing because it [00:08:00] is, it’s a thing and it’s effective. Yeah, very effective. But midliminal is like let’s say you were shooting this podcast right now, but behind me we have a clock with the hands at 10 and 2. Which kind of looks like a smile and people start kind of taking in these things in the brain and associating happiness.
And there’s all these little tricks and stuff that they use. But yeah, I didn’t know if you heard about that before.
Chris Gazdik: So I don’t know. What do you think? First off, Neil, I’m, I’m, we, I’m going to pull you in and gather my thoughts because it’s a fascinating topic that I have a lot of interest in. Honestly. It
Neil Robinson: kind of goes back to the implicit bias we talked about with those things that kind of that are human nature.
Like you said, the smiley face makes you uncomfortable. I mean, on my side, doing email marketing, talking to different customers, like what you say, how you say it, or that image you use, like it’s a huge tactic that You don’t understand until like, why did that picture make me feel [00:09:00] good? Versus this one made me feel bad.
It’s like all those sub things. And that’s amazing when it comes to marketing, you almost need to be a psychologist sometimes to understand that side of it. And I think it’s, that’s the difference between the good marketing campaigns and the bad, or the shows that are popular. And it’s, those are little tricks that, yeah, I think he knows.
I thought, I think he knows a lot of tricks. So
Jack Fortenberry: let me, let me also. Kind of state the attempt is so the attempt is to bypass I forget the terminology, but the top layer of thinking and get down to the primal layer of thinking. Oh, yeah. Right. So, so to entice someone to do something they could. Affect emotion, you know, something that anger, something that goes right to that primal state that, that logic goes out the window.
So
Chris Gazdik: here, here’s the thing. Do you know Neil deGrasse Tyson? Mm hmm. Absolutely. Love this guy. He’s got an awesome show star talk,
Jack Fortenberry: a little, little, I fall as I [00:10:00] have, I think I’ve programmed myself. If I hear Neil, I fall asleep. So I will go, I will, I will put Cosmos on and just, I’ll be out. What
Chris Gazdik: the heck?
How do you sleep with that? Cause they have a deep show and so many cool. So those of you that don’t know, he is a, he’s an astrophysicist. He’s pretty well known in pop culture, mixing together with the science culture, which is the goal of his show StarTalk and he, he’s just an impressively intelligent guy in the science community.
He’s, he’s really very effective at communicating and explaining very detailed, depth, the scientific stuff specifically, and especially about astrophysiology,
Carl Sagan lineage, Carl Sagan kind of guy, exactly. Right. So I loved his quote, and I’ve quoted him several times because what he is of the belief that I am of the belief also is that neurology specifically the whole field is [00:11:00] like the next greatest bastion for scientific learning.
Now think about that statement for a minute. The next greatest bastion of scientific learning is neurology. This is a dude that’s talking about nebulous stars and bigger than you can imagine concepts and spa micro energy fields with, I mean, amazing things that are all in astrophysiology. I mean, it’s unbelievable yet he is going to neurology.
So Jack, that’s what I mean. When I love this topic, when you look at neurological based practice. In the media concept in the age of information that we’re in like we could explode on this all month I don’t know how to narrow it down to the depth of
Jack Fortenberry: what’s going on Well, and that’s why I wanted to discuss more the ethical right because but yeah, it’s a huge It’s a it’s a well of knowledge but the thing is [00:12:00] is I, after reading that stuff, I was like, should I implement this for my business or should I implement it?
But educate, because if you can educate somebody to spot being manipulated in that kind of way, then, then maybe people will be less susceptible to it.
Chris Gazdik: It’s the ethics of it are fascinating because there’s such an involved. Psychological process that goes into it, and I want to think about it in the way of capitalizing on, like you said, Neil, the implicit bias, which we did a whole show on in episode, what, 178?
I almost haven’t memorized it. 173? Yeah, because we’ve quoted it so many times. And those are beliefs that you have that you don’t even know that you have the, the, the, the, the psychological process with subconsciousness and, and, and hypnosis comes involved, which if you wonder if that’s real or not, it is very real.
So what you’re [00:13:00] talking about is the ethics kind of of human interaction, almost, I would guess if you’re not going subliminal, which is different, but probably not that much. Far from that to be honest with you. They’re teetering that line. It’s really gray area for sure And but I want to dumb it down and say like part of that is just human interaction So, if I’m smiling when I’m doing a cheer contest, the whole time as a cheerleader, I am doing exactly what you’re talking about.
If you bought a car.
Jack Fortenberry: Right. You’re being, the sales people, you know, have been trained. It’s a whole,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, my son’s gotten into sales and he tells me, Dad, it’s game. I’m like, I know. It’s, it’s, it’s human interaction. So, in that way, as long as you’re not being kind of devious with it. Listen, we’re living. But, they are.
Well.
Jack Fortenberry: I mean, especially the season of, you want to talk about a little bit politics. You can, you can,
Chris Gazdik: it’s a heck of a rabbit hole, Jack. We got to hold ourselves back. [00:14:00]
Neil Robinson: Well, I mean, I mean, one thing to think about, you look at like Tik TOK, Tik TOK brought in a whole bunch of neuroscientists to figure out the algorithms and study what makes it addictive and like, yeah, and then YouTube shorts.
It’s like, those are just as bad. Like. Because
Chris Gazdik: this stuff works and, and the thing that I would say on the ethical level it’s one hell of a thing to try to regulate or, or, or, or needle down into the minutia of what’s going on. I don’t know if it’s, if it’s almost possible when you start getting to lesser levels than just pure subliminal stuff, because, you know, this stuff works like in carnival shows and stuff.
stuff. I mean, people will play, you know, mind tricks and games on you. Like, and it’s not stupid people. Like you listening, you need to understand with this topic, you know, you are susceptible to this stuff and it happens all the time. It’s just little slights of the hand, the little comments that are made and you know, there’s a whole industries that are built on this longterm, not new with [00:15:00] neurology.
So yeah, I think we got to get out of this rabbit hole. We’ll be here for a while. It’s fascinating, but it’s, it’s It’s tough to manage the ethics of it in the age of information that we’re in.
Jack Fortenberry: Just to close it out, I will give everybody one thing to look out for and then when you see it, you’re like, Oh, this is what they’re talking about.
So if you go to a website or you see an advertisement and they have Three pricing tiers, or three different things. Oh, sure. They, the one they want you to go for is the one in the middle. Because Yes. Always. That’s, and that’s actually a neuro principle that is being exercised,
Chris Gazdik: and hopefully It’s just sales techniques.
I mean Yep. It’s just, it’s just good solid,
Jack Fortenberry: you know But we’re discovering why it works now.
Chris Gazdik: So yeah, and refining it and refining a lot
Jack Fortenberry: and they pay, they pay companies of neuroscientists and stuff that specialize in neuromarketing and
Chris Gazdik: some money. I bet I bet [00:16:00] because it works. Yeah, it works a lot of big.
We’ll have to revisit that one, sir.
Jack Fortenberry: Absolutely. Let’s move on. I want to find out what.
Chris Gazdik: Let’s go to episode. Let’s go to episode 261. The Adderall epidemic. I’m prepared for you, Jack. You ready for this? I hate to put people on the spot, but I tend to do that.
Jack Fortenberry: I have
Chris Gazdik: a lot of experience with that. What, do you, what is ADHD in your mind’s eye, in the public eye, I’m curious as a non clinical person.
Because we did an in depth discussion about it. This was a show that you really, I’ll let you gather your thoughts. This is a show that you really want to check out, guys. Because ADHD is a, boy, it’s a big topic. And, you know, early 2000’s everyone had ADHD, it was a fad. Now it’s not so much that way, but Victoria was awesome.
On this episode, genuinely and thoroughly sharing like her personal experience over a lot of years and as you wonder if you have adult ADHD, [00:17:00] this episode really can go a long way, not diagnostically. Don’t get me wrong. We don’t deliver therapy services in any way. Victoria will be so happy that I just said that, but the fact of the matter is there, there’s a lot on there that will help you kind of discern what it is and how it operates in the adult world that you might wonder if you have or not.
So this was a great show. So I’m curious back to that in the, in the, the, the nonclinical way, where’s your brain go with ADHD and what it is and all
Jack Fortenberry: that. I was first diagnosed with ADD when I was probably. Nine, eight or nine years old. And that’s when I started riddling for
Chris Gazdik: you, the listener. I did not know that.
Yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t want to tell you that. So thanks Neil.
Jack Fortenberry: Yeah. So as someone who, who has, I’m not a victim, it’s not, I don’t want to say cause I’m doing. Pretty well for myself, but at the same time there are challenges that I notice, my wife [00:18:00] notices, that, that I have to, you know, fight against, and it’s, it’s very difficult when you’re aware of it, the problem is not a lot of people are aware of it.
That’s the big problem. And but for me, I am ADHD without the H. I get, it, the brain works so fast. I get almost like zone locked. Like I’m, I can’t do anything, but I sit and I’ll, I’ll think, yeah. And, and, and that’s, that’s, that’s what I, it’s your brain goes so fast. I can cover so many topics by the time we’re done with this conversation, I’m 10 steps ahead of you, like on a whole nother different thing.
And then when I try to bring it up. I’ll start at the end of my thought process and you haven’t even, and so, yeah, so I gotta, I gotta remember, I’m like, okay, I’m ahead. I need to fill [00:19:00] you in on how I got to from A to
Chris Gazdik: Z. You know, one of the things I like to help people understand when we’re dealing with this is under normal.
Circumstances, the human brain, you know, don’t hold me to the numbers, but the general gist is true about seven thoughts to the one that you can convey and the reality of when you get into a manic state with bipolar, which is very different than ADHD, but similar in the sense of the thought p
with ADHD, what are you hitting like 14, 20 thoughts per the one that you can say it’s just, it is, it’s zooming, zooming,
Jack Fortenberry: zooming, but at the same time I have learned.
It’s almost a superpower if you think of it that so rather than then make it, you know, something that I struggle with, I have found ways because personally speaking of Adderall, I’ve been put on medication and while it does help. Tremendously, in terms of focus and slowing down and being able to [00:20:00] coherently stay on one thing the whole way through.
The side effects for me were horrible. Like the sleep, the sleep, the dreams felt so real, like I’d wake up more tired than when I went to bed. If that makes sense. It was weird, but I’ve found ways of kind of mitigating that if I have to drive spouse crazy, but I’ll have the TV on. I’ll be, I’ll have, you know, monitors, all kinds of different stuff going on because.
If I bombard myself, I can focus on one
Chris Gazdik: thing. That’s a word. Yeah. That makes no sense to me. I it’s weird. People that know me believe I have ADHD too. And maybe I have milder forms of it. I personally believe I have a learning disability and I talked about that on the show, which is a different kind of flavor on to what.
You know, happens with ADHD because I, if I’m watching, like, there’s no way that I could sleep if the TV’s on in the bedroom, for instance, like I just, I’m, I’m going to focus on something that’s making noise there. And if you give me like three different directions, [00:21:00] like I’m lost because I need to look at that one.
It’s, it’s so fascinating neurologically again, by the way, the way humans think and process data. And so that’s what ADHD is. It’s just data processing difference. And
Jack Fortenberry: I remember. When I was in Thailand and Bangkok, it really
Chris Gazdik: hit me hard. No, you know what happens in Bangkok stays in Bangkok, so don’t, be careful.
Jack Fortenberry: Bangkok’s a great place. Okay. It’s a great place. People are lovely. So yeah, I lived there for a while. That’s cool. But They have a Starbucks, right? And I hadn’t read a book like in case you can’t, you know,
ADHD, it’s very difficult to sit down and read a book, but I was at Starbucks and things are going on all around me.
And I just happened to pick up, I think it was Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy or something like that. And I was going to have a copy, you know, I had a copy and a cup of coffee and I was sitting there and, I found that I could focus, and I read that whole dang book. Oh my gosh. And I was like, light bulb moment.
I [00:22:00] was like, that’s, that’s the solution right there, is to have some kind of stimulus
Chris Gazdik: so that I could focus. Parents freak out when I actually make the suggestion for ADHD kids to let them have their music. Let them have their video, whatever. Because they can literally then enable themselves to sit down and do work.
And the parents are like, what? It’s weird.
Jack Fortenberry: It’s bizarre. It’s so counterintuitive.
Chris Gazdik: So the questions that we had sorry Neil real quick, the questions that we had were on the Adderall epidemic. Do you know what Adderall actually does? Why would people overuse or abuse this and is this effective response to, to ADHD?
Sorry Neil, what was that? I cut you off. No, I
Neil Robinson: was just thinking about, you know, the purpose of the and the bombardment. If you’re thinking 14 thoughts and you’re having your subconscious kind of hear all these different things that kind of allows your brain to go off on those tangents. So you can then focus on that one particular thing.
So it makes sense. And I understand why that could be hugely beneficial to have that because it [00:23:00] does it. Yeah, it’s good. Like I said, it does seem counterintuitive, but it’s also when your brain’s running that fast, giving it a couple of things to kind of do it. It does basically now, now you’re allowing yourself to say, I’m going to focus on these couple of things.
Purposely while the rest of it just happens around you. It makes a lot of
Jack Fortenberry: sense. And I mean, if you utilize it right and your, your productivity can be quite
Neil Robinson: amazing, find the right stuff. I’m guessing, right. You had to find the right distractions.
Jack Fortenberry: Yeah, but you know, in
Chris Gazdik: the adult world, that’s true, but it, but, but like you said, you’ve got to learn an understanding of it because at the same time as you can feel super productive, you’re productive internally and externally, other people aren’t catching the productiveness.
So you’ve got to be able. To manage the interactions, particularly in the adult world, because what you think you’ve produced, you haven’t even completed other people are waiting for the completion when you’re working on completing two or three other tasks. And it’s like, whoa, what, what is the, you know, [00:24:00] there, but if you know that.
As the adults figure out in the maturity level, because it is self awareness, the self insight though, where absolutely, then you can capitalize on a lot of those different things and multitask.
Jack Fortenberry: And I say this, I say this to everybody, and I know it can seem a little woo woo, but at the same time,
Chris Gazdik: I love that word, I use that all the time, Neil.
Jack Fortenberry: Meditation, tremendously helpful for people with ADHD. Tremendously helpful, life changing
Chris Gazdik: helpful, and it’s a skill, it’s, it’s difficult, super frustrating at first, back me up if I’m wrong and then once you begin to build those skills, yeah, I, I get your point, okay, so what we didn’t get to talk about, Neil, very much, I think, which is kind of, I said it many times, why I like these review shows is, is the, the actual use of Adderall and the abuse that can occur from This stuff.
So, so let’s focus on [00:25:00] that. I’ve, I’ve got a,
Jack Fortenberry: I’ve got a good one for
Chris Gazdik: you on that for a bit. Go ahead and go ahead and rock us out because, because Jack, first of all, you, you, you mentioned the side effects you had and, and, and I want to, I want to focus and hone in a little bit on how to properly use these medications, which I’ve got to tell you listening out there, these are helpful tools.
These are not solutions to manage your mental health, right? Okay.
Jack Fortenberry: So, I was probably 17 years old, right, and in high school, like, close to graduating. I remember I had a few friends come over the house, and they were like, Hey, we got some, you know, I think they were studying or something. They were like, Hey, we got some Adderall.
It was like, and this, I hadn’t been on Ritalin in a long, long time, and this is kind of where. I learned about Adderall. So everybody else, they, they took it and they were going wired, wired. And I took it and I was. Yeah, and that’s when I was like, there is a [00:26:00] difference People, you know, I was like, this is not for me.
I was like, I understand what it’s doing for you, but Obviously my brain is a little different at the moment. So that’s a
Chris Gazdik: stark reality,
Jack Fortenberry: isn’t it? Yeah, it was it was a big it was a big kind of like, oh, I do have
Chris Gazdik: this that is so cool and and I, I almost shudder to say this on the air, but I’ve, I’ve said it in therapy sessions and it’s, it’s, this is not a formal suggestion.
So this is not what I’m saying to do is, is, is try an Adderall pill. I mean, you just described what I’ll tell adults, I don’t like playing any kind of guessing games with kids. I want to make sure we got the right diagnosis. I wanted to go through the proper channels. I want to go low dose, all that stuff.
Like, you know, cause they already have enough going on, but if you’re an adult. Then you will have the experience you literally just described. It’s weird. And it almost kind of confirms or denies like, Oh yeah. Like I like exactly [00:27:00] tripping me out because I’ve told people that it’s like, Oh my gosh. Yeah.
This is a confirmation almost like a immediate too. It’s not. Yeah, no, it
Jack Fortenberry: was a big, it was a big. And, and for someone who’d been, you know, dealing with it for a long time without. You know, be having that, you know, real self awareness. I mean, I thought it was when I was young, you know, whatever. And then it hit me and I was like, Oh, this is what you all feel like all the time.
I was like, this is kind of weird because there wasn’t all the clutter. It was level. It was
Chris Gazdik: weird. What are you thinking, Neil?
Neil Robinson: It’s just funny how your normal, well, your normal would be fast to us and our, it’s just, it’s just funny. The perspective thinking about that, where
Jack Fortenberry: it, but it’s not even, it’s not even that it’s.
It’s like you’re following a straight line, and you got, like, for people who don’t have it, you could easily, it’s not difficult, but [00:28:00] for me, it’s kind of like You get there with us, but you’re crossing back and
Chris Gazdik: forth. Victoria, in her clinical work, uses the spaghetti analogy. Before you cook the spaghetti, it’s exactly like that straight line.
Here’s my thought. Here’s the next, and I’m going right there. But when you cook the spaghetti, it’s still the same length. It’s still the same thing, but it it’s a D deed, right? Right. It, it, it, it operates completely differently and you could tangle them all together and have this cool web and weave of thoughts and concepts.
Practices and that it’s it’s cooked. Spaghetti is very different than than raw spaghetti noodles. But,
Jack Fortenberry: but like I said, that doesn’t make it better or worse in my opinion. I, like I said, I found a lot of benefits and that’s another reason why I don’t, I’m not on medication right now. Like because. I find I’ve grown accustomed to how I operate and I can, you know, get, you know, the safeguards.
Yeah. And [00:29:00] another weird thing. Speaking of, you know, treatment drug, like drugs to treat A. D. H. D. I remember I was in college. My wife was, I had to have my wife edit my papers because I’m Incoherent sometimes and go all over the place and she noticed a huge difference because I did get on Adderall then but the funny thing is when I talked to the doc he was like Do you drink lots of soda?
And I was like, a ton. And he’s like, do you smoke cigarettes? And at the time I was like, a ton. And he’s like, you’ve been self medicating for a long time. And I
didn’t realize it, but caffeine and nicotine are both stimulants and do the same thing.
Chris Gazdik: Well, absolutely. Also, it is so rampant nowadays that the culture has changed with weed.
My ADD kiddos and adults alike love weed because it does the [00:30:00] similar sort of artificial way of really calming that whole neurosystem down and it, it pulls a relaxate you can’t get otherwise. And then people find weed and they’re like, Oh my gosh, that’s how I sleep. It’s, it’s,
Jack Fortenberry: I will, I will have some kind of
Chris Gazdik: legal.
Yeah. Legal substances. In North Carolina, we have legal substances. But,
Jack Fortenberry: but, before, like, I don’t do it recreationally. I literally use it as a sleep aid. And I, and unlike sleep medication, I don’t wake up and feel that hangover. It feels more natural. to me with that. So, yeah, I mean, that’s I
Chris Gazdik: use. So a little in and out of what the medications are for really all mental health and substance.
Actually, just mental health medications. Mostly, you know, S. S. R. I. S. Antidepressants. The thing of this is, is they’re they’re not a cure. I’ve said 1000 times already said the Quote, I’m gonna say it again because it’s hugely important to understand. These are effective tools to [00:31:00] manage mental health.
They’re just not solutions. Like to this point, we do not have a solution for your OCD. We do not have a solution for the bipolar reality that you’re living with or whatever it is that a diagnosis might be. But we do have these tools that help us manage it. The. The imperfect science that it is, though, is real.
So Neil might need a different dose than I need. You, Jack, may have side effects that I don’t have. And, you know, one effective medication might be better for you, Neil. And that Jack needs a different one of the same variety altogether. So it’s really a frustrating hodgepodge of trial of and tribulation of getting the right medication and getting the right dose and dealing with very real side effects.
Some such as dry mouth and sexual performance is a problem. Sometimes the foggy brain with some [00:32:00] of these medications, you know, and, and, and oftentimes with like dry mouth, your, your body will adjust to these side effects. So you kind of fight through it. But man, depression with treated with antidepressants is way better and life changing for people in a positive way.
It’s just not perfect so much
Jack Fortenberry: to it. And, but also I think. It’s being over prescribed, like prescribed for, I mean, the, for some things like, like Adderall, which is how many molecules away from methamphetamine, you know what I mean? Like, one, right. It’s, that’s what I’m saying. Like it’s the, the, the level of abuse that can come from that, from especially docs, like over prescribing, like that kind of medication.
Chris Gazdik: Here’s an interesting thing though. When Adderall was first come out. In Ritalin before that was the first generation of stimulant medications. It was a big deal. I am not finding anecdotal as it is. [00:33:00] This isn’t scientifically studied or I’m a substance abuse therapist as much as a mental health therapist.
And other than college students that really want to do all nighters and study a lot, because it’ll help your focus when you’re non ADHD kind of as well, there’s a lot of abuse there. That’s where the big population is now. But I do not find people doing a lot of the crushing, doing a lot of the trying to snort or, you know, different things.
When Adderall was new in the epidemic, that was more the epidemic. And that was really prominent. People have moved on to opioids and other different things. Adderall is not really abused as much. Well,
Neil Robinson: the one thing that we talked about six, nine months ago during the Adderall shortage was there was that online therapy service that almost every single doctor on there, like the instant prescription was like, Oh, you need Adderall.
Here you go, here’s your prescription. So talking about the overramp and prescribing of it, that was something, I mean, I don’t think that was like nine months ago or something that we had to think about that. Well, [00:34:00] also,
Jack Fortenberry: it’s a societal issue, too. I mean, think about how fast paced American life is. Like, when you’re on something like a stimulant or a methamphetamine, you’re almost living up to society’s expectations.
So, or cocaine, or, you know, like, how big that was in the 80s Oh, it was big in the 80s. Right, because people can function and Have more energy and, you know, so it’s kinda
Chris Gazdik: for those listening to the audio only show, I’d like to point out very clearly that Jack just put his two fingers of each hand in the air and put big fat air quotes on that, right?
Yeah. Because it is short term energy. It’s very dangerous. And we didn’t really talk a lot about the abuses of these substances that that, you know, don’t do it. It’s just don’t use a prescription based practice with a prescriber. For this, you’ll go, I [00:35:00] mean, drink some coffee, college students, like, you know, Well,
Neil Robinson: well, here’s the question I have, being a stimulant like caffeine, like, is it similar to if someone drank a whole bunch of coffee and slowly built up a tolerance to caffeine kind of thing?
Or like, what, what are some of, like, if you, if you do over abuse, like an Adderall or Ritalin or one of those stimulant kind of things, what does it do? Like, what is, what
Chris Gazdik: is that? Yes, is the short answer, right? Like, it is a stimulant. And, and, and unlike antidepressants or mood stabilizers or, you know, things like that we use for antipsychotics for off label stuff and actual schizophrenia and stuff like that, that you don’t develop tolerance.
You do not have these types of problems of abuse. If you try to take Prozac and think you’re going to get anything from it, you’re, it just doesn’t. These are. Also, anti anxiety agents are the benzodiazepines. They sell Xanax on the street. Benzos are bad news. It’s real bad news. And now it’s being mixed with fentanyl, which is a whole nother issue.
But to [00:36:00] answer your question, Neil, yes, there are, there is a tolerance level with this that is of concern, which is why in long term treatment regimens, they’ll switch to Vyvanse and then go back to Adderall, right? And they’ll even go back to the first generation with Ritalin to switch up. However You can have long term treatment with this and not have too much of a problem with, you know, tolerance getting so high that you have to weigh overdose to get the
Neil Robinson: effect.
But the concern is just like taking too much caffeine. It’s a lot of stress on your system if you take too much over time. Yeah. Heart. So, yeah. That’s what’s kind of getting, like, we’re at a long term, like, of the abuse outside of just But that’s why you
Chris Gazdik: go to prescribers, which, I’m not a prescriber. I just have a lot of experience with this stuff.
That I can talk about it with intelligence
Jack Fortenberry: and it’s, it’s such a, if you ask, like, if you, I’m sure you’ve seen tick tocks and stuff being like, if you have trouble concentrating or blah, blah, blah, [00:37:00] or you, you have impulse control problems, you have 80, you know, like it’s, Everybody has some form of We all, yeah.
Right, like, so it can be easily prescribed to people who don’t have this condition. Well,
Neil Robinson: listening to Victoria last time, like, maybe I have ADD. Exactly. I was like, oh, my wife has it. Definitely that. Absolutely. The whole conversation of like, being Seven steps ahead and blurting out the end results. And then she’s like, no, no, here’s how I got here.
Like that’s
Jack Fortenberry: my wife sometimes. But literally that, like he was saying that the way, you know, take an Adderall pill, if you’re, if you get jacked up and you start running around and like wanting to do stuff, get a
Chris Gazdik: lot of cleaning, get a lot
Jack Fortenberry: of clean, then you probably don’t have it. Like if you zone out and you kind of, and like,
Chris Gazdik: they should not take Adderall and feel chill.
All right. We got to move on a little bit. We can stay there for a while, but just as a reminder, Victoria is She’s been very gracious with us and we got the game, Neil. You remember the game that we’re playing with Victoria? Why don’t you break
Neil Robinson: that down real quick? [00:38:00] Oh, so she’s, because she had a kid recently and then breastfeeding, she’s been off for 80 ADHD medication.
And so what Chris and I are kind of doing is trying to see like when we do the shows, whatever, see if we can pinpoint when she gets back on. Some sort of medication for it.
Chris Gazdik: I do work with her. John works with her. Yeah, you have the unfair advantage of being like five days a week. I do have a little unfair advantage.
I can tell you, not yet. So stay, stay
Neil Robinson: tuned. Well, I, I kind of, that’s why I’m like, I don’t really see it made, like you said, you kind of, kind of see some things when you work with her. Some of you, the lack of finishing things, but like when just interacting with her, I’m like, I don’t really know why she would need medication personally.
Like she’s cheerful. She’s happy. Interacting, I don’t see a purpose for it. Now, I don’t work with her, I don’t live with her, she might need it.
Chris Gazdik: And I think, honestly, it’s a lot of her own experience, Neal. Yeah. I mean, you know, there’s a, there’s a a choice that you make in how you want to operate, like, Jack, you made the, the opposite choice, but, let, let me ask you Jack, we, we, let’s spend a little bit of time on one and I’m afraid of time, man.
We, we, we went [00:39:00] along on the Adderall thing, but that’s okay because I think a lot of people are in it. Which one do we want to focus on a little bit more depthier than the other one? We might have to be a little short with so episode 262 culture wars and what happened to professionalism. And we talked a little bit about this guy named Jordan Peterson in Canada.
And the other is episode 263. We talked about compassion getting confused with codependency. Right. So which one sounds most interesting to you? Go.
Jack Fortenberry: Either or. I’d say the former.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Codependence. So let’s go towards the professionalism. I’m kind of glad you chose that one because I’m really not, man, because codependence, or I mean professionalism is something that, man, Neil, I think we had a rousting conversation with that one, didn’t we?
Neil Robinson: Yeah, we did a little bit with Victoria. Yeah. When you have a 60 plus year old ex military, ex pastor, very straight laced,
[00:40:00] in with ties and then you have Victoria next to him with like either holy jeans or yoga pants and her t shirt with her hair in a messy bun. The idea of professionalism in a therapy office is complete polar opposite.
It was definitely very interesting.
Jack Fortenberry: Define the word
Chris Gazdik: for me. Professionalism. Good question. So the three questions that we did with this show, what is professionalism? How does the mental health profession need to interact with social issues? We didn’t talk about that much. We won’t really cover that today either.
And then how is mental health though, a part of professionalism? And I do want to hit that. So interesting to think about what this really is. is to think about the core components, right? Ethics and integrity, reliability and accountability, respect and courtesy, competence and expertise. These are components of what go into someone acting professionally.
There’s been shifts in intergenerational realities. I mean, for the first [00:41:00] time in the history of mankind, we, if you think about it, we really have like four different generational group cohorts working together. You know, baby boomers are aging out, but they’re still working. Us Gen Xers, y’all Millennials.
And wires, you know, the, the Gen Z or Gen Y, whatever they’re called, they’re really starting to enter into the workforce and in high level professional positions. So you’ve got a big shifting that’s kind of going on, you know, with technology and communication. And you just mentioned Neil, the casualization of things.
So, you know, the work life balance You know, the education that you have you know, the accountability that you have, the, the, the culture that’s in the group. I mean, professionalism is something that unfortunately gets dissed. It doesn’t, I feel like it doesn’t get its due like it needs to and used to.
So that’s that’s kind of my stance, but does that give you a sense of what the word is what we’re referring to sort of
Jack Fortenberry: yeah [00:42:00] Yeah Yeah, I get it because it’s the generational thing I think the the perspectives that that change and I mean you can’t things are cyclical So I’m sure that they will come back around to being more of you know, you know, boomer esque professionalism at work I am a huge fan of the, the casualization because young people are, well, we’ll listen, I
mean, younger, I should say justification if, if, if your product that you’re putting out is still quality, you’re You’re, you’re empathizing with other people, you’re, you know, you’re, you’re working close and have good relationships with within the hierarchy of whatever, whatever profession you’re working in, then I see no problem.
Chris Gazdik: Here’s the thing, Jack, I’ll leave you off the hook and not put you on the spot. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I want to hit [00:43:00] you, Neil, and just see how you do. If you put dress aside, let’s say that’s a part of professionalism. What are some of the other aspects you think of? And then for fairly enough, you heard our conversation.
So what are some of the other aspects that involve with professionalism?
Neil Robinson: I mean, to me, it’s, it’s interactions, how you deal with someone, you know, that’s, that’s a big thing. How you talk to someone, is it yo bro, what’s up? Or is it like, Hey, good morning. How are things going? You know, there’s, that’s one part because there’s a way that you get a little bit too.
Too casual, too friendly in a business environment. That’s one side of it. The other side of it is I think the punctuality you have a lot of times where the meeting. They, people show up five, 10 minutes late or they don’t hit deadlines or they just don’t take the time to get things done like they should.
That’s, that’s a big thing when it comes to casualization. But once again, if you’re getting your product done, you know, but then what if the product’s a day late and then that pushes everything back? That to me is a professionalism or communicating that, Hey, my. I ran into some snags. [00:44:00] My deadline needs to go back.
So the communication needs to be there versus, you know, that’s professionalism to me. Those are the other aspects besides closes.
Chris Gazdik: There are so many aspects and you, you did hit some. If you think about the way that we operate together. In a group of people, the professionalism just doesn’t need to be there when you’re in a little league sports program.
But when you amp that up and you’re trying to accomplish a goal together, such as an AAU team, you know, really experienced players on a high level will tell you we need professionalism to get, you know, make this, you know, They talk about it in the NFL or in, you know, major league baseball. Like this is your job.
It’s timeliness. It’s the, the coachability, the inner actions, emotionally, the filter that you put on the detail that you have, the way that you filter your speech, cursing or not cursing being purposeful. Yeah. About your dress. But [00:45:00] the, the, the. The spacing that you have when, when you’re, you’re, you’re proxemics with body, like all of the nonverbal communication, all the purposeful things you do together as a group, your expertise, your, your continuing to learn, like there’s so much that’s involved that people don’t think about.
Jack Fortenberry: Yeah. But also, I mean, that’s such a, the topic. It also depends on industry, culture. There’s so many dependents, like variables in professionalism. It just kind of depends on where you fall. And now that, you know, it is different now with, like you said, technology and everything changing. There’s a lot more different kinds of industry out there as well.
And so one, one industry’s professionalism will look completely different from another. Absolutely. And what are the different culture? Both of them will
Chris Gazdik: look and you have to look at what are the norms for your industry. We talked a lot about boards of ethics and professional groups that really help [00:46:00] that what I don’t help.
They, right, they require that, like, and it’s, and it’s there to protect the public.
Jack Fortenberry: Like, and now that you mentioned, like, like therapist and mental health, right? Like that, it’s a, it’s a weird one because I mean, do you want your therapist to be? In a suit or do you want to be more casual be able to be more like friend like break that kind of
Chris Gazdik: barrier The board of ethics makes sure that our behavior is professional and you have to follow the professionalism Requirements because you’re providing a service that has to have a uniformed Code in lieu of that I mean it sounds crazy, but you’ll have all kinds of behavior Otherwise that’s really detrimental to the therapy service like yo people that sit on ethics boards know that people have sex with their clients Crazy stuff.
Yeah, they have all kinds of blended relationships [00:47:00] professional boundaries are crossed with like, you know, financial gain and, you know, building your platform and your brand through, look, there’s a lot that goes into that. And, and so it’s fine to, to water some things down with intergenerational changes in technology and all, but boy, you gotta be, you gotta be aware.
Jack Fortenberry: But at the same time, like professionalism and ethics. Are we talking about the exact
Chris Gazdik: same thing? They are intertwined intently.
Jack Fortenberry: Because, like, dress code, let’s say, or the language. I wouldn’t consider part of that.
Chris Gazdik: Core components of professionalism. Ethics and integrity. Reliability and accountability.
Respect and courtesy. Competence and expertise. These things are all a part of what we go into thinking about what is how do we act out, [00:48:00] you know, being
Neil Robinson: professional. Well, and I think you have it on the head. It’s industry specific. If you’re a plumber, Well, it’s like when you get your HVAC worked on, we have the guys come in.
I want my plumber to
Chris Gazdik: be on time for crying out loud,
Neil Robinson: please. Right, or, or when they come in, we always have We’ll be there between
Jack Fortenberry: 1 and 7. Oh my gosh! But no,
Neil Robinson: like, with the HVAC, when they come in for their biannual check, they come in, they put their little booties on their shoes to protect, they’re always in their uniform, there is a professionalism to that industry.
Now, after they leave and they’re talking to their buddy in the truck, that professionalism is going to be different than in front of another person. Right. Because it’s industry specific, you know, a construction worker who’s out there framing in the mud or doing whatever is going to have different needs than a therapist on a couch or a CEO at a big corporate, or even us in it, when we were
Chris Gazdik: like industry, when you’re providing a service for me and I’m hiring you as a plumber, I expect that you’re sober, right?
We hope it’s professional. Like, this is a service we’re providing. I [00:49:00] do expect that you use the company vehicle when you’re not drinking beers on, at lunch. Well, one
Neil Robinson: example of a shift is, one of the sysadmins you used to work with, he worked actually around the corner here, and the, the CEO was like, or whatever it was, director or something, all the sysadmins had to wear suit and ties.
Like they all had to wear ties with their stuff. Going, going hardcore. Well, after he watched one of the sysadmin guys have to work on a computer in the plant, he’s like, that’s stupid. Like, why, why am I having you guys do this? And he’s changed the whole thing and been like, no, you guys don’t have to wear that anymore.
Because you realize that some of those things are not necessary. They’re there for certain reasons and it doesn’t mean that when it comes down
Chris Gazdik: the corporate ladder. Oh, we got a big issues across the United States, I suspect around the world. With you know, requirements to be in the office versus, Oh yeah, that’s a, that’s a big thing right now.
What’s the professionalism there, you know? Yeah. So we’ll, we got to move on. I’d love, we can stay on each of these. See what I mean? Oh, that’s an important topic that we, we did take a little bit of a [00:50:00] deep dive on. Oh, honorable mention with that also, it didn’t get to talk about it a whole lot the other day.
And we’re not going to be able to talk about a whole lot now. Mental health issues impact. I can’t tell you how many times in my professional life, you know, I’ve had to kind of manage as a founder and as a, as a leader, you know, issues where mental health can be a really big part of how somebody is performing.
And I mean, you’re anxious or you have depression or you’re grieving or, you know, but
Jack Fortenberry: some would consider that a new generational, You think in the 60s and 70s, they thought of mental health in a corporate setting
Chris Gazdik: or the Fortunately not. Unfortunately
Jack Fortenberry: not. So I would say That’s one good thing that has come up is that kind of awareness and, you know, millennial Gen Z kind of workplace that are
Neil Robinson: being, yeah.
Well, and I [00:51:00] think a lot of that there’s, I think we’re kind of at a part where some of it’s gone too far and we have with a lot of us going into the generational changes now. It’s we’re going on, it’s a teeter totter and we’re on the opposite side right now. And we’re going to slowly try to get our shift our weight.
And I think we’re seeing a shift where we’re kind of balancing it, but yeah, there’s a lot of mental health awareness is like, Oh my need to, Oh my God, I need a safe space. And I need to take a day off because I just can’t like, man. Sure. Okay, I understand. Maybe you need to take a longer lunch today, but you don’t have to take three days off because you know, you lost in call of duty.
Like come on guys. So, so I think that would be a video game. So yes, I think there’s an importance that we are more aware of mental health when it comes to your job and occupation, but I think we’re also at a point now it’s like, okay, where’s this balance? And I think we’re slowly finding as a society, we’re slowly finding out, okay, some of it is.
Some fortitude, you got to go build up some fortitude and resilience. And some of it is, okay, we do need to be more aware of these because of the bigger problem. I think
Chris Gazdik: you’re thinking about the American culture, but as I am not a cultural expert, you know, around the [00:52:00] world per se, for sure, that’s my qualifier.
I think there’s an experience that’s really worldwide. With, with the technology influences and different capabilities that we have and, and all of, and all of that. So let’s get to compassion gets confused with codependence. Jackie said this was kind of the more interesting of the two, although you watered that down saying they’re both great, which of course they are, but I think both are
Jack Fortenberry: really deep,
Chris Gazdik: right?
Yeah, they are. They are rescuing and saving others is not the healthy goal, is the setup here. The three questions. Do you know what codependence is? I have a nice way to slice through that. Think of examples in life of this really happening and curious, Neil, frame your thoughts up and revisit the whole third question and what John was talking about with like, what’s the opposite of codependence?
I thought that was kind of interesting and I hadn’t really thought about it and really [00:53:00] wanted Victoria and John to talk with us about it. We didn’t do it a lot. But the opposite of codependence was, was, was fascinating to me. So Jack, do you, you know, again, as a nonclinical person, I’m curious codependence is a term that’s like the psychology terms that are thrown around our societies now a days.
And I love it because people are more aware, but also it drives me nuts. How people sort of just have so many myths, which is part of the standard of the show, blowing up stereotypes and myths. I think codependence definitely is one of these that. That gets confused or whipped around a good bit. Have you heard codependence?
Do you know what it is? How does this operate in your mind?
Jack Fortenberry: So yeah, codependency in a relationship would be detrimental to both sides, right? Right. It’s in that that that cycle of cyclical. Yeah cyclical But yeah, I haven’t really [00:54:00] I guess one behavior influences the other Which then feeds but but I mean codependence Sounds more of a in my head equal footing which I don’t believe in codependency There’s got to be some sort of Alpha in that, in that relationship.
Right.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. So here’s, here’s what I’ve developed over the years to kind of cut through this for you. Right. There’s a series of realities that go on to really demonstrate codependency. So Jack, if I’m codependent with you, basically what it, what it means is if you are well, then I am well, right? If you are not well, then I am not well.
So my goal, goal be alpha, kind of, well, there’s not really a, a balance in that kind of a way. It’s just that my emotional experience goes by this simple set of thinking. Right? And you don’t really think it, you just experience it. So again, if I’m [00:55:00] codependent with you, if you are well Jack, then I am well.
If you are not well, then I am not well. So my behavior, my goal, my focus is to make you well, ultimately so that I will be well. See? And that’s a codependent reality. I’m dependent in a sense. on what your mood is, what your wellness is, because ultimately I am, I’m with that. So, where do you
Jack Fortenberry: see that? Is that, like, specifically abusive relationships?
Chris Gazdik: Definitely happens in abusive relationships. It was born in substance abuse relationships. This is where we got to learn the concept, kind of, when we started getting aware of family dynamics. And we took a deep dive on this, you listening out there, to, to, to get into that, because there’s an important history that feeds into our understanding of how this works.
Real briefly, You had an addict who was doing crazy behavior. And then we identified family patterns because it affects the whole family intently. The spouse was doing all kinds of wild behaviors with this alcoholic, like dumping alcohol on the [00:56:00] drain and monitoring how much they drank and making sure that they had a ride.
If they were sick in bed and hung over, they would make sure that they got called in sick. Like whatever problems are there, the spouse is like running around doing all this crazy stuff to make sure things are okay. Why? Because if their spouse wasn’t okay, they’re not okay. If their spouse is good, and happy, and not angry, then I’m good.
So I’m gonna make sure there’s no problems, I’m gonna make sure everything’s calm around you, I’m gonna dance on eggshells, so that we’ll have peace and I will be okay. It’s, it’s a, it’s a really interdependent dance that gets created. And I’m
Jack Fortenberry: guessing there’s levels of this, right? Yeah, of course. Because I would imagine that most marriages you hope there’s some level of codependency,
Chris Gazdik: right?
Okay, perfect. It’s an awesome segue. Do you remember the scales that John and I talked about, Neil? A little bit. Okay, I got your brain on the opposite, so I’ll, so I [00:57:00] actually developed a scale and John was talking about it in lockstep with me, because you’re right Jack, there’s a relation, right? When you, when you connect, meet, greet, date, whatever, or you’re friends, you’re, you’re, you’re related.
To each other, even acquaintances, you have a relationship, so you’re related. But when you begin to be involved with each other in a very healthy way, you do, you develop this interaction, this symbiotic stuff, this I play off you, you play off me, and you become interrelated. That’s the second quarter of this scale.
So the healthy version is interrelated. But then you cross over this line into the This co dependent land and, and the, the midpoint to the third quarter is co dependent and then you get into like severe examples of this, such as the abusive relationship where it’s the dependent. So it’s really on a whole half moon scale.
Jack Fortenberry: So going to
Chris Gazdik: the extreme, oh boy, as he would, right?
Jack Fortenberry: Manson. Oh boy. Coles. Is that
Chris Gazdik: [00:58:00] to the extreme? That’s probably so. Oh, absolutely. That’s a good, that’s a good point. We didn’t talk about that. About
Neil Robinson: cults and the members that do pretty much anything for the cult leaders to keep them happy and because they’re happy
Jack Fortenberry: I’m happy.
Your life
Chris Gazdik: depends on The leader if the leader is not happy with me, I cannot live it can get severe And then the abusive relationships probably a little less severe. I think you’re right. I wonder if that’s that’s curious What would be the most kind of codependent relationship? I diabolically need to think about that.
That sounds horrible though I
Neil Robinson: think it goes back to the what was the munchausen’s Whatever the by proxy that we talked about before in that episode. What’s the name of that where they make the, the, the parent makes the kid sick and then does all the
Chris Gazdik: procedures? Oh yeah, yeah, John was talking about that.
Whatever it’s called, I think you’re right, Munchausen. Yeah,
Neil Robinson: by proxy or something. Yeah. Because you’re legitimately, but it’s, that’s kind of an opposite because you feel like you’re, when they get treatment to be [00:59:00] well, you feel like you’re the hero kind of thing. It’s a very weird situation. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: you, you, you basically get your ego fed that you, you feel good about yourself because you know, you’ve made your kids sick and you can come in and be the hero and But
Neil Robinson: yet it’s kind of weird because it’s actually not really codependent because you’re actually hurting the person.
So you feel better. It’s real. That’s actually weird. It is a twist. Yeah. But no, I think it’s important because in a relationship, as you mentioned, the different codependence and like the other ones you talked about was you want your significant other to, to be well, because you care about them and you want them on not because of how it makes you feel, but it’s really about you want them to be happy.
Now, happy the whole phrase of the happy wife, happy life is a whole nother thing where it’s like, I want her happy. So I have a better life, but here’s
Chris Gazdik: the title of the show. You’re on point, Neil, because you have passion being confused with codependence. Now listen to the definition of compassion. I think I wrote it down again here.
Yeah, yeah, [01:00:00] genuine concern for others well being accompanied by a desire to alleviate suffering and promote growth. The gray area is dangerous because you can slip over and that’s why I created jacked at scale. I mean, we’re, we’re related to each other and then we’re interrelated. I mean, you have compassion, you care and, but boy, that.
That can tip over into a different zone where that compassion and, and desire to alleviate your suffering moves into a codependent thing in session. Do you know the type of relationship that that’s really prone to? Parenting, parenting, right? I, I am going to maintain the bold statement that almost universally, if not universally in a parenting relationship, you’ve got to have elements of codependence that go in there.
You know, bad examples of helicopter parenting and totally, you know, smothering your kid in meshment, but even [01:01:00] Typical parenting like I fall into that man. I don’t want my Adam to have a hard time now He’s away from home. He just did boot camp. Let it go. He’s
Neil Robinson: an adult. Come on, Chris. Let it go All right, brother.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah
Jack Fortenberry: trying to also push back like I don’t think When you’re talking about your, your spouse and wanting to see them happy, you’re, you’re not, yes, you may, you’re probably doing it in your head for them, but it also makes you feel, you’re doing it, I don’t, and this may be cynical.
Chris Gazdik: Altruism, brother. Altruism.
It’s a thing. I
Jack Fortenberry: don’t think, I don’t think, I don’t think anybody does anything selflessly. Well, I mean, yeah, exactly. Like you’re getting something from it, whether it be an emotional response or whatever, that increases that dopamine level or whatever it is. Right. Like you’re getting something from, yes, it’s a, it’s an always an exchange.
Well, it’s, it’s kind of that idea
Neil Robinson: that if, if you see your wife struggling [01:02:00] with whatever, Tough time at work, you might, you might go take your kid away from the house for a little bit to make, give her some self time, compassion, compassion. And so, so that’s where it comes back to the idea that, but you’re doing it not because you want to feel good as the hero.
You’re doing it because it was against altruism kind of thing. You want her to be able to recoup and get back her, her mental state
Jack Fortenberry: of why. It’ll make you feel better and if she’s that’s an added bonus.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, it’s true jack, but you know there with Codependence a word pops in as you’re pushing back at that that I think will clarify some of this that’s unspoken When when you’re in unhealthy levels of this There is a need there.
Yeah. So it’s the obsession, right? Yeah. Almost obsession. There’s a need. There’s if you’re not okay. Like I really can’t be okay. Like there’s, there’s a, there’s a big grab there. And of course, if somebody is having a rough day, you’re going to be bummed for him. You [01:03:00] feel for him. I, I really felt very passionately for my son.
He went through bootcamp. I knew he was having a hard time. Oh, rough time. Purposely rough time. I also knew that you know, he was going to be better off for it and gain from it So I could have if I were codependent being crazy about it, but I didn’t need adam to be home to be Well, do you know the home was quiet neil?
We didn’t wash hardly any towels those two months, brother. I’m telling you, the wrappers were not on the table and crumbs were put in the garbage can right after we ate them.
Neil Robinson: We’re trying to figure out what’s going to happen. What’s going to happen with Mason leaves for college because he’s so noisy and just having them gone for like a day.
It’s like, it’s weird. Cause the, the rest of us are overall relatively quiet, but Mason’s always. Making noise, singing, whistling, he’s like a guinea pig, he’s whistling all over the place. But yeah, it’s going to be really weird when it’s gone. It
Chris Gazdik: is, it’s a change, and so with co dependence, it’s not like you [01:04:00] can’t cope with that.
You can deal with things that happen in life, but boy, there’s a strong need there. When
Neil Robinson: your actions become irrational just to appease the other person or keep the other person happy. Right,
Jack Fortenberry: and that can go deep. And I think Speaking to, you know, offspring, right, like it’s a genetic thing to like you, your program to want your offspring to thrive.
To survive, right. To
Chris Gazdik: survive, to not die, to not die my own hand, especially, sorry.
Jack Fortenberry: But yeah, like,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, there is some wiring there. You’re right. There, there’s some wiring there. And, but, you know, probably honestly in the animal brain wiring though, you know, if if the bear eats the kid, you know, I’m. going to be okay and I’m going to run, you know, and I’m going to take the other little kiddos and, and get out of Dodge, right?
So, so there’s a balance that’s there and in place. And I think [01:05:00] that the emotional dynamics that, that get that into a destructive place, you will literally be eaten by the bear too. You think about that. That’s not good. And, and so, we have survival mechanisms that are in our body just as much, Jack, in that rearing.
So that, you know, we can’t get eaten. And so, we’re non codependent. To start and, and, and we experience pain and we experience emotions. And like, if, if, if you’re not codependent and you marry somebody that has an addiction problem, you’re looking at somebody literally like being walking dead and you get, you just get sucked in and you end up your, your own life energy just gets sucked dry, trying to, trying to get this thing, this system, this family system in balance.
It is exhausting and draining to the soul.
Jack Fortenberry: There’s something that kind of haunts me till this day that is directly [01:06:00] related to that and Because I had to go against my character I was at a gas station. I Just had a you know pulled over. I was on the highway On the way home was running out. So I had to stop and I get out tattooed couple Obviously on meth, right?
I mean, crystal clear, right? And this woman’s screaming, and this guy’s screaming, and like, it’s ugly.
Chris Gazdik: And So they’re fighting, like, with each other? Yeah, she’s
Jack Fortenberry: probably trying to get away, she’s screaming help. Oh boy. And as much as I wanted to jump in, I knew that It would make no difference because of that situation right
Chris Gazdik: there.
It’s the self preservation that kicks in. And
Jack Fortenberry: well, that and, and knowing that it was a codependent relationship. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. That it was me stepping in is not gonna change. Anything because she
Chris Gazdik: [01:07:00] would just be right back. It’s a tough call. It’s a tough reality to watch Yeah, and you can imagine if that’s being watched in your personal relationships or something I mean, it’s it’s a real eerie yucky feeling when you see somebody that’s codependent And you might not even know what’s going on but you’re just like dude, like are you really gonna bleed
yourself out here like for To make this person well, like it’s, you know, yeah, like domestic violence relationships are horrible to, to watch and, and, and tough, tough stuff.
Jack Fortenberry: That was, that, that, that stuck with me because like you, everything that you’ve been raised to do, you know, step in and the only other time I had to deal with that was in China, different story, but but yeah, so I just, it’s still to this day kind of. Kind of just makes me go, ugh.
Chris Gazdik: Well, I appreciate you sharing that Jack.
And, I mean, it is, it’s, it’s, it’s a feeling that you have when you see it. You know, it’s like one of those things where you might not know how to define it, but you know it when you feel it. Yep. And it doesn’t feel good. Nah. It feels very, very bad. We are running over, Neil, but the opposite of codependence.[01:08:00]
Do you remember anything? Yeah. It’s counterdependent. Yeah. That was a different term. I, I never even heard of, no, that, was that the term or you making a joke? No, I
Neil Robinson: looked at, I looked up at my notes, looked, I have my notes. That’s why I bring them.
Chris Gazdik: Right, right. Yeah. It, I don’t know. That was a new term.
Counter dependence is, it is like the opposite. You know, I, I thought out after, I mean, what was, is.
Jack Fortenberry: Like, what would that dynamic look like?
Chris Gazdik: Well, that’s what I was going to say, because I really did some thinking about it. And, you know, it’s, it’s not really that complicated that we landed on, you know, the term counter dependence.
It’s just a new term for old thoughts that we’ve had in the field. And the old thoughts that we’ve had in the field, to answer your question, Jack, what it looks like is an avoidant person. So,
Neil Robinson: so like if you’re in a good relationship, you do everything to push the person away,
Chris Gazdik: right? It’s like I need my space.
I’m pulling back. It’s the engulfment stuff the avoidant Attachment styles, you know the you know, that’s that’s [01:09:00] kind of the opposite. It’s like, you know isolationism and and avoidant and, you know, being a porcupine, even to be, you know, more severe with this, like stay away from me or I’ll, I’ll, I’ll poke you, you know, it’s, it, that’s the opposite of codependency.
So is
Jack Fortenberry: speaking of both, and we’ll wrap this up real quick, but counter or co dependency, is this a, a developed behavior or is this something?
Chris Gazdik: Good question. I, I, yes. I think it really is more of a developed thing. A lot of the concepts in mental health have a biological genetic reality. Neurology is the newest bastion of informational science about this, right?
And then you have social and emotional experiences on this other side of it. continuum. I call it the tale of two tapes. If you listen to the show, you’ve heard that before. This codependent thing is much more over on that side of the equation and it’s treatable biological [01:10:00] behavioral. Yes, therapy is awesome for this, like to help you set boundaries and learn how to set limits and kind of be good at preserving yourself and developing some emotional resiliency internal.
It’s like, yeah. There’s a lot that we can, that we do with that. It’s particularly in therapy medicine. Like, no, no, no Adderall for that, Jack. All right. Closing thoughts, Neil. I think we need to shut it down. We need to get rolling
Neil Robinson: good, good shows. I’m glad you were here. I thought it was funny. Like I said, I talk about Adderall.
I’m like, Oh, this will be funny with Jack. Cause I knew. He set me up y’all. I did. But no, it was great going through these things again. And once again, it’s the ADHD stuff. It’s great having the topic. I’m a people who, who deal with it on a regular basis just because I don’t know. And so it’s great to have your take on it versus Victoria’s as well.
So yeah, I’ve enjoyed it. And it’s been fine hanging with Jack longer, so.
Chris Gazdik: All right, Jack. I appreciate you hanging by and I think that we’ll definitely see you next week. We’ll be reviewing next week, next month, [01:11:00] next month, next year. I don’t know. Thank you for that, Neil. Next month, when we’re reviewing the stuff that we get into.
And, oh, if you stuck around, I should have did this on the front end. We have a cool announcement. Dang, we need to add this on the beginning, Neil. The next show, we have some commitments with The Bachelor. There is a Bachelor. I’m pretty excited about that. One of the past Bachelors. Has agreed to come on the Through a Therapist Live show, and I’m excited about that.
Is he still a bachelor? He I can’t Ooh, teaser! We’re gonna leave it at that. Y’all have a good week. Take care and stay well. We’ll see you soon.