Divorce is such a tough time as we might understand, but then when considering the kids and parenting them together with the now ex spouse which you might just not get along with especially well (referencing divorce), but then also through in a whole next person (the step parent) and even put another step parent into the mix; boy, can you see how dynamic this might end up being. Come experience our panel discussion that might help you make sense of this mess.
Let’s figure this thing out together, through a therapist’s eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Do you know the ideal co-parenting goals?
- How to manage the kids when your ex isn’t “ideal”?
- When to lean on legal process?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/kidsandparenting
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #272 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes on May the 2nd, 2024. We have Mr. John Pope hanging out with us over there. Hi, sir.
John-Nelson Pope: Hi, how are you doing?
Chris Gazdik: Miss Victoria Pendergrass hanging out with us on a. Thursday evening.
Victoria Pendergrass: Hi.
Chris Gazdik: And Neil’s behind the curtains with a explanation that he’s going to give us about shows and what we’re doing with the shows and updates.
You want to hit that?
Neil Robinson: I did this last week. Do it again? They should listen every week. So three,
Chris Gazdik: four times in a row. That’s what we agreed, man.
Neil Robinson: This is the punishment for procrastination is what this basically is. So basically if, if you, if you listen to the show and other places besides YouTube live, we are behind.
On the schedule a little bit. We are getting caught up. We’re going to be doing two a week until we get caught back up to where the podcast will always be a few days behind. Give us time if any post production, but right now I think we’re about [00:01:00] in about a month, we’ll be pretty much caught up. So we’ll always be here.
YouTube live on Thursdays, except for the second weekend in May. I won’t be in town. No YouTube live the second Thursday in May. Mental note. But yeah, join us on Thursday, YouTube live always, but the podcast will we are getting caught up with the behind schedule. So just Be aware of that. Listen to them. If you want to get caught up sooner, go to YouTube.
We’ll have an
Chris Gazdik: explosion of shows here. Two a
Neil Robinson: week to catch up. Two a week
Chris Gazdik: we got coming out. So this is where you get insights from a therapist, a panel of therapists in your home or your car. But not the delivery of therapy services of any kind. I’m getting excited about the book. Coming out. We got the marriage book coming out through volume two.
Thank you. It’s been a long time coming publication date will be in the, I actually got to find out the specific date, but but it’s
John-Nelson Pope: dropping in mid fall, late fall,
Chris Gazdik: late fall, actually. It’s time for the holiday. Yeah. That’s what I’m really most excited to [00:02:00] give them
John-Nelson Pope: as a gift,
Chris Gazdik: Through a therapist size, you could subscribe to us, click on the buttons, leave an Apple review, all of that stuff.
Contact it through a therapist. You need five.
John-Nelson Pope: John
Chris Gazdik: Five. Five stars. Five stars. He, he, he wants that guys, I mean, I, that, that, I don’t know what we’re gonna do whenever, if we ever get a one star review, John, I don’t know how you’re gonna ever handle it, bro.
John-Nelson Pope: I probably break my heart. . You really break your heart
I, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna become a stalker. I promise. The bigger
Chris Gazdik: we get, that will happen at some point. Yeah. So lemme see. The human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together. Co parenting in divorce. So I gave a segment up for Victoria to kind of come up with the the ideals that we’re looking for.
And, and I tell you, well, the three questions also, do you know the ideals of co parenting? We’re going to go over that in this next section segment, how, how to manage the kids when your [00:03:00] ex isn’t quote unquote ideal, that’s a, that’s a big question that I get in therapy a lot, as in like today and yesterday.
And probably the
Victoria Pendergrass: day before that. Not the day
Chris Gazdik: before that, although that’s hard to think clinically that far. And then when to lean on the legal process. Look, unfortunately, there are a lot of, no, actually the day before that as well. Yes. Seriously. That was Tuesday, Wednesday, and today, Thursday. This issue has been flowing around.
Because we see a lot, don’t we, guys?
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh.
Chris Gazdik: You know, tremendous. It’s, you know, lots of questions go into like, you know, how do we handle this? And when adults and parents are behaving badly, you know, I’m dealing with currently one of the most I’m going to say extensive parent alienation situations that I’ve seen before.
Yeah. And I, I’ve been doing this a while and I’ve seen some pretty torrid undercuts. It can be slicing with, with, [00:04:00] with people. And actually I have two kind of going on right now. That’s just like. Dude, you you know, this is this is legal. I mean, it’s kind of criminal.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: really? I know that’s a pretty big statement But listen, I am an advocate for kids And I mean if you are tearing your other parent apart and maliciously talking about the other parent I am going to land strong on the fact that you are hurting bad
John-Nelson Pope: your
Chris Gazdik: kid.
John-Nelson Pope: So it’s very acrimonious. And what I’m hearing then is just that one parent is, is actually denigrating, actually just saying horrific, terrible, slanderous, slanderous, slicing,
Chris Gazdik: cutting. Yeah. You know, not, not in simple ways, but just in, in
John-Nelson Pope: manipulative,
Chris Gazdik: very manipulative, very deep. So are we talking
John-Nelson Pope: maybe even.
With one of the partners of a severe a severe personality disorder?
Chris Gazdik: I suspect. [00:05:00] Yeah. Definitely. I definitely suspect borderline. Huh. Personality disorders around when that scenario is going on or some serious narcissism, particularly. From abusive relationships that probably were abusive before.
But, but anyway, we want to go into the ideals and, but I, but I want to put a cautionary tale on this. I feel like, I’m curious what you guys think. People are kind of aware of the ideals now, a little bit more. I mean, you know, there’s nothing shocking that you’re going to hear in this. I think the thing I want to highlight is we’re trying to get to that space.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right.
Chris Gazdik: Very few people are going to be living this ideal segment out.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Right?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, for sure.
Chris Gazdik: I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s really hard. I mean, you got divorced. You’re in a heavily emotionally decompensated state.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Or you’re separated, headed towards a divorce or we’re talking about managing your emotion
Chris Gazdik: [00:06:00] with one of the most difficult things of parenting, right?
So
John-Nelson Pope: it’d be highly conflicted, highly enmeshed relationships, even broken relationships that are, yeah. Well, yeah, because
Victoria Pendergrass: I think divorce is one thing when there’s no kids involved, but then, yeah, when you add the kids, you have this whole other aspect of, Well now, I’m, it’s not just about me, or in this person I was with, but now there’s like these other human beings that are, you know, actively involved in the situation and have the potential.
Chris Gazdik: Undevelopmentally prepared right in the middle.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, that have the potential to be affected long term. Based on how the parents handle things, right? So
Chris Gazdik: it’s a big deal so anyway, I didn’t expect to go on that ramp, but it just hit me It just hit me because i’m dealing with it right now. Like, you know parent alienation is bad I mean it is i’ll tell you what if you have a super highly critical parent I’m going to make this [00:07:00] bold statement again Just explain it if you have a super highly critical parent i’ve made the statement that that would just churn your insecurities and eat from the inside out parent alienation Can we say, is that worse
Victoria Pendergrass: than having a critical parent?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Then being heavily criticized by a parent. Can we say that parent alienation is even more psychologically damaging for the kids? It’s a new thought. It’s at
Victoria Pendergrass: least equal if not more, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: At least equal if not more? Yeah. I would say. I’d say you go.
Victoria Pendergrass: Maybe. I don’t know, although I have less experience. I don’t
Chris Gazdik: want to put you on the
John-Nelson Pope: spot, but.
No, no, because I was just talking to somebody that was emancipated at 15 back in the mid 80s. At the age of 15, which people didn’t do back then.
Chris Gazdik: No, right.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, and so there was an alienation on with both parents at that time. And because it was so dysfunctional. So, and so was
Chris Gazdik: alienation, I mean one parent [00:08:00] undermining the other.
Yeah, yeah. Is that what you’re saying?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, because I am saying that, but I’m also saying that there was a sense that she could not be with either parent because she was so alienated from them because they both went and talked smack all the time about about each other and she just couldn’t live there.
Interesting. Yeah. Well. Because they stayed together. Oh, wow.
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh, so they didn’t. So
Chris Gazdik: they were actually alienating each other in the eyes of the kids so much so the kid had to get emancipated. Emancipated. And the parents actually stayed together?
John-Nelson Pope: Yes. .
Victoria Pendergrass: Wow.
John-Nelson Pope: And one of the, okay. And their son just went deep into substances and then actually committed suicide.
Oh, man. Yeah, because he went to jail like three times. Heavy family dynamics
Chris Gazdik: there, huh? Yeah. Yeah. And she’s an adult now.
John-Nelson Pope: She’s an [00:09:00] adult. Yeah. Yeah. Still dealing
Chris Gazdik: with the ramifications.
John-Nelson Pope: Still dealing with it. Struggling with it. I’ll tell you
Chris Gazdik: what, if you’re in a separator to divorce circumstance, I’m going to say it again.
You, you, and you, if you’re saying anything bad to the kids or undermining the parents, you know, agreeing with the kids about how bad the other parent is, like you have got to stop it. It is killing your kids. Absolutely.
John-Nelson Pope: Absolutely.
Victoria Pendergrass: Even if you don’t see it now,
Chris Gazdik: killing the kid.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Even if you’re, even if the other parent is bad and you’re just pointing out the truth.
Mm-Hmm. , it’s still killing the kid’s heart.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yep.
Chris Gazdik: All right, so let’s get away from that. Victoria, what are, yeah. Take away the ideals away. What you thinking? So Chris
Victoria Pendergrass: asked me to create a list of ideals within co-parenting within divorce. And actually I do have one to add at the end. Okay. So, right off the bat, we have respect.
Right, ideally.
John-Nelson Pope: So, R E S P C T?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Okay. R E S P E C T. Is that a song, John?
John-Nelson Pope: R E S C T. Okay. Oh.
Chris Gazdik: Is [00:10:00] it? Is that a song? Yeah. Okay. I’m trying to
Victoria Pendergrass: get him to sing it. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Victoria, your
Chris Gazdik: allergies are wicked. Are like kicking my butt right now. Wicked.
Victoria Pendergrass: That’s North Carolina pollen Suck
John-Nelson Pope: it to me.
Suck it to me. Hurry up.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. So yeah, first we have respect. Like obviously there are ideally you want respect for both partners. Like I respect. My previous partner and they respect me, okay, which is
Chris Gazdik: honestly part of what I was just talking about, right? I mean, obviously, you know when you’re engaged in your ex behaving badly Oftentimes they’re very much disrespecting you So you know, and, and then you, you just, you, you, you struggle if you get in the gutter, right?
Where you just want to turn the disrespect back at the disrespecting parent. Now you’ve got, you know, kids hearing both parents being, being tore
Victoria Pendergrass: up. Well, then they can be confused about which way do we go? Who do we believe if we’re hearing two different things? Like all the things. [00:11:00] Okay. Next we have workable.
And I’ll add flexible scheduling. And I recently learned from John right before this, that I didn’t know that apparently they have apps. Where you can like, like co parenting apps where you can have
John-Nelson Pope: talking parents is a very good app Okay, where
Victoria Pendergrass: you can like have the schedule and what is it John talking
John-Nelson Pope: parents you talking parents app and you can find it Android or?
iPhone Apple Store and one of the the aspects of it is is that if you are estranged, really estranged from one of the parents and you’re trying to work out schedules and co parenting schedules. Not if, when, because usually you are. When. And you’re not in communication. This is a way to do it dispassionately.
Chris Gazdik: Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: And that would and so people do not get drawn into the emotionality. Talking parents out. Talking [00:12:00] parents. It’s one word, talking parents. And I’ve, I’ve recommend it very highly. I think it’s, it helps turn down the stove a bit. You know, the, the, the boiler
Chris Gazdik: sounds like we need to contact talking parents to get it, get a sponsorship.
Yeah. No, I, that’s awesome. The oldest person in the room, Victoria is giving us teaching us about an app. I love this. John, well done. Yeah. Like workable
Victoria Pendergrass: schedules is ideal because you want to know that like, I mean, things come up right? Right. Like. Like you might, when you get divorced and you have a custody agreement, there’s typically a set schedule, correct?
Right. Where you’re at, you’re at one parent’s house for a certain time or length. And you’re at the other parent’s house, a certain day, time, length, whatever.
Chris Gazdik: Routines, routines, all the things,
Victoria Pendergrass: but also like things happen. So I guess like, ideally it would be nice to know, like, if I, okay. Say it was. My relationship or whatever if I had something come up on the weekend [00:13:00] that I could message my previous My ex and say hey, like do you mind?
Watching the kids this weekend like this came up and then them being like, yeah, sure, you know, I got you like No worries. It’s again, ideal. We’re talking about ideal. We’re talking ideally. Like, that’s.
John-Nelson Pope: And I think that would eliminate some of the, the subconscious sabotage that might be going on. 100%.
Yeah. And that you’d be able to, to do that. And then that person doesn’t feel like,
Victoria Pendergrass: you
John-Nelson Pope: know, Oh, they’ve, they sprung this on me.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. So I kind of tacked along that like appropriate flexibility. It goes
Chris Gazdik: right together with it. Yeah. I mean, honestly, the, the, just as a kid. I can tell you, you know, how much that would you call it?
That the, the subconscious sabotage sabotaging kind of reality, right? Like that is a powerful thing at, at, at the age of like 10 or 11, my parents went through separation and divorce. They were definitely in the category of [00:14:00] less than ideal. Mom and dad, you were, you know, they didn’t handle all of that.
The best in a lot of ways, and that messed with me even still to this day. Like when my sister was deceased, I literally felt like, Oh, mom and dad’s going to be in the same room. How’s that going to go? Right. That’s interesting. Let’s watch this. Let’s see how that is. And, but certainly as a younger man, I was less established in my emotional self, hopefully growth a little bit.
And man, the wedding was an absolute nightmare. Mass in for me and your wedding. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Having your parents there at the same time ended
Chris Gazdik: up dead. Didn’t even come. I mean, you know, it’s a wedding, right? Like crazy because
Victoria Pendergrass: of your mom,
Chris Gazdik: The guest list, like who do you invite? Do you not want to invite all the kinds of safe
John-Nelson Pope: in terms of a traditional wedding and it’s the bride going down and both the, the, there’s a sense of.
Amnesty between the, the ex the [00:15:00] mother and the father that are, are divorced, who’s going to walk me down the aisle that just
Chris Gazdik: goes on and I’ve done tormenting, yeah, absolutely tormenting.
Victoria Pendergrass: So
Chris Gazdik: appropriate flexibility, like, yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah. And so that kind of moves us into effective and open communication.
Oh gosh.
Chris Gazdik: That sounds broad. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: I know, but again, remember, this is ideal, is that, you know, when issues arise, when they’re scheduling conflicts, when anything happens, the ideal is that both partners or both parties. The parents will be open and say like, okay, this is how I’m feeling. This is what’s going on.
Like, let’s figure out a way to work through this. You know, all the things
Chris Gazdik: I’m glad that you, you, you went and just into some specifics there, Victoria, because you’ve also got, which I thought was funny, active listening on the list. Which is a part of how to go hand in hand. So [00:16:00] do boundaries for that matter.
Right. Which is also on your list. And the thing is, is all of that we will talk about here in a little bit. Emotionally focused therapy, right? That’s what you do when you’re in marriage. Counseling is figuring out how to do this. Now you’re divorced. Guess what? You’re still figuring out what’s going on with your internal emotions.
And how is that limiting your ability to speak to the other person? I hope you’ve graduated to that point. Instead of sitting there saying to yourself, this other person doesn’t communicate well, it’s their fault. And that’s why I got rid of him. No. Like, right. EFT conversation.
Victoria Pendergrass: The active listening, I think I put that more for like the whole saying of like listening to understand versus listening to respond.
Right. Kind of thing, which I think happens a lot. Again, this is ideals. Cause I think it happens a lot in divorced parents. You’re this whole, like, I’m not really listening to [00:17:00] understand what this part, what this other parent is saying. My former spouse, like I’m just listening to respond. So ideally, you wouldn’t do that.
John-Nelson Pope: You’re not thinking ahead of what you’re going to respond saying. Right. In other words, you’re, you’re actually listening what the person is saying,
Victoria Pendergrass: the content, emotions. To understand where they’re coming from, to understand, yeah, understand what the issue might be instead of just like, oh, what is my response going to be?
Again,
Chris Gazdik: you sucked with this when you were married, if you’re going to suck, it’s going to be even more difficult now.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. But this
Chris Gazdik: is, this is, guys, this is the same. But again, this is
Victoria Pendergrass: ideals.
Chris Gazdik: It’s ideals and it’s also the same issue. And guess what? You’re going to deal with this in your next relationship,
Victoria Pendergrass: right?
Chris Gazdik: And I can’t tell you how many people like nowadays tell me, particularly the women, like, Oh, and guess what they do? They move into another relationship
John-Nelson Pope: with the same type of personality issues, same issues,
Chris Gazdik: your internal issue. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: So you’ve, you’ve externalized in terms of you build [00:18:00] this projection in terms of relationship and there’s an Internalization, you’ve been, you’ve externalized what is internalized and you kind of set yourself up for defeat.
For failure. Yep.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay, so next I got still being able to do activities, et cetera, together without any issues.
Chris Gazdik: Like going to a wedding.
Victoria Pendergrass: Like going to a wedding. Or like going to your kid’s soccer game, going to your kid’s parent teacher night, going to your kid’s play, go, you know, whatever, like being able to still support your kids, but like doing it together.
John-Nelson Pope: Am I hearing just hearing that it actually might be more complicated to be divorced and separated because there’s new relationships that are made and. Other children and so you become involved even if you have one set of children, you are actually [00:19:00] might,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, because then if like, say, I, I heard about blended family, right?
If each, if each parent goes off and marries. If you can see me, I’m on the camera, like if each parent goes off and marries another person and then they have kids together, well, then like, they’re going to probably want to come and support the, the shared kid as well. And so then like, ideally you would want to be able to like get along for everyone to do that without like.
Trying to kill each other and there’s
Chris Gazdik: the thing. There’s no real golden rule about this because I’ve seen everything from My ex is dead to me and we do nothing Versus the other side of the continuum. We have sunday meals literally I always think of her You know as lady was talking to me and she her ex husband and her would like have regular sunday meals together you know for like the following 15 20 years up into the Time that I met with her and I and that blew me away because I was a younger clinician at the [00:20:00] time I was like, wow
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: and honestly, I thought about my own parents.
I’m like that would never work.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: or could it in the ideal
Victoria Pendergrass: ideally? Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: and And
John-Nelson Pope: ideally that Grandparents that are involved or uncles and aunts that would be involved would be Would treat the in the children in a blended family the same
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, and
John-Nelson Pope: so they’re in
Victoria Pendergrass: not trash trash talk.
John-Nelson Pope: Yes,
Victoria Pendergrass: the The X
John-Nelson Pope: the X right?
Yeah. Oh That can be horrible. Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh, yeah. Okay. Lastly, but not least keeping the kids is the main focus
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, they’re the point in divorce. You’re really she ship is ending or ideally. That’s
Victoria Pendergrass: the that’s the focus It’s we’re gonna do whatever it or is You and I are gonna do whatever we can to make sure that our child that we had together You Has the best life they can, even though their parents are no longer married and [00:21:00] together.
Chris Gazdik: Okay, so Victoria, you ready to get real?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah
Chris Gazdik: I
Victoria Pendergrass: just lived in the ideals for so long between yesterday and today that now I just like how do we cope with
Chris Gazdik: your ex spouse? Who’s not being quote error quote? ideal Let’s get reality based John
Victoria Pendergrass: reality check. How do
Chris Gazdik: we deal with this? How do we deal with that it is more common
Victoria Pendergrass: what for it’s not to be ideal.
Oh, yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, yeah anything but right ideal I mean cuz you said it you were you were blown out of the water with this ex spouse and Sunday meals. Well, and
Victoria Pendergrass: sometimes I think the idea the idealism doesn’t happen for a lot of couples when it does exist It doesn’t happen from the get go That it’s like there is a bunch of like Things happening and then over time then they learn to like work [00:22:00] together You know what and so then like but unfortunately it sucks for the kids when that when that’s being all like crazy at the beginning That’s not great.
But then I feel like in my experience and working with people they usually become more that towards the ideal Parts of co parenting and divorce like later on at the longer that they’ve been divorced.
Chris Gazdik: I have been holding my breath for the last 30 seconds because I am so glad that you put a light onto that, right?
Like that is the reality.
Victoria Pendergrass: You
Chris Gazdik: will probably very well not start out in ideal land, but you will can most certainly work through these issues. We have this thing that’s actually called divorce counseling and whatnot We have family counseling and we have you know skilled people that can help facilitate you objectively through that listen The second quite possibly most difficult parent alienation [00:23:00] Circumstance that I was really closely working with, with this, with a particular family turned that, I mean, it was so amazing to watch, not over weeks, not over months, but it was over a couple few, at least years, three or four, maybe I’ve, I’d have to look at the notes to backtrack, got to a place where they really could do much more almost up to Sunday meals.
And they started out from the second worst parent alienation circumstance I’ve observed. Oh my goodness. Right, John, it was amazing. To watch them be able to get to the place like you just highlighted. So thank you for
Victoria Pendergrass: teaching us
Chris Gazdik: that that’s possible. I think
Victoria Pendergrass: it inspires, it lets people know there is hope for things don’t always have to stay so like toxic and negative at the beginning.
Like it can get better.
Chris Gazdik: That’s one of your trailed off moments. I’m not sure if we’re supposed to wait or you go.
Victoria Pendergrass: No, [00:24:00] that was all I have really had to say.
Chris Gazdik: So at the moment, so coping with the ex spouse. It, to me, I, I alluded to before, you know, emotion focused therapy. That is what I, a foundation that we use.
Matter of fact, we just did another review of that no we didn’t, 201. We’re going to do one at 301.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. 11
Chris Gazdik: 101 201. I figured why not keep it going at 301. So you know. Abandonment, pursuing behaviors, engulfment, withdrawing behaviors. Check out any one of those show numbers I just mentioned. We take deep dives on that.
It’s a foundational reality. It’s the exact same thing when you’re separated or divorced. All the communication things you just were talking about. You have got to be able to deal with your internal insecurities so that you can then effectively, you know, deal with your ex, even when your ex is acting The same they did in the in the marriage if not probably worse,
Victoria Pendergrass: right?
Chris Gazdik: Right, John How much have you done [00:25:00] divorce counseling? Have you done that much?
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, I’ve done a lot of weddings wedding. Yeah Divorce counseling. Yeah, in fact I Not done a tremendous amount. I’ve maybe not tried to yeah, and I’ve been I guess blessed that way, but I’ve I’ve had a I, I’ve had a
few and it’s rough, it’s wicked, and I don’t mean that wicked like evil, but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s very difficult and I think it’s more difficult than, than other types of counseling.
At least maybe that’s for me.
Chris Gazdik: Sound crazy to say that I even think that I’m good at it.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m gonna start referring people to you. Oh dear. Well,
Victoria Pendergrass: His schedule is already full. Hold on Why do you think i’ve been also like?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, you can send it to me. I would say
Chris Gazdik: because it is tough.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, it is tough And you get, and I think that’s where the, the clinician has to be [00:26:00] able to say, I’m not going to be drawn into this because there’s the, the back and forth and you have to, you have to deescalate quite often and the accusations that go on there.
So I’ve done mediators, yeah, yeah. And so I’ve done my share. Okay, I’ll say that, but hopefully when I’ve done this is that I’ve had a number of folks that have, they’ve reconsidered and they have, they’ve said, okay, we have to change, but it has to be that idea. It’s like you said, you have to change. You know, where you have that, that one person that’s blaming and the other person will blame back, defend, defend.
And so there has to be a sense that they have to step back. And take a, and take that. Take deep breaths. Mm-Hmm. . I, that’s why I think you do a lot of [00:27:00] of individual mind. Yeah. Mindfulness and in individual counseling with the clients before they, they come together for a
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. I personally don’t do, if I see them individually, I don’t see them as a couple.
Me personally. Yeah. I just feel, and that might be something that changes over time. So like I just referred. A couple that I see, I see both the husband and the wife separately, but I just referred them to, and they’re now, I think they’re now seeing, they’re going to see John. You haven’t met with them yet.
I, I have. Oh, you have, okay. I have. Charming. And so, because for me, At least just at this point in my career, I do find it difficult to, like, keep that all separate, separated. Because I also see one of their kids too, and so it’s a very, like, The point that I’m making,
Chris Gazdik: Victoria, though, is that it’s, it’s, if you’re doing divorce counseling, to me, it’s a lot like doing marital counseling.
Huh. Okay. And, and some of the highlights that you’re talking about, yeah, it’s like, it’s the same thing. It’s the same dynamics. How do we make this work? Yeah. [00:28:00] Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And I, and I maybe misunderstood you because I would, I would say that, that the way I approach it is, is that can this marriage be saved and can their relationship be, be actually have a new beginning?
Can they rise like from the ashes, like a Phoenix? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They’re, take what was destroyed and, and built, so.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. And in divorce, I want to suggest you could do that by looking at these, these, these same sort of issues, which is, you know, the segment that we’re on is how do you deal with your ex when they’re not acting ideal or there’ll be an, you know, just, we’ll just say difficult.
It could, there’s a lot of words that could be interjected there. And, and, and you’ll see that a lot of my brainstorm and thinking is really about the internal self. Yeah, you can’t control the other [00:29:00] person. You can only control yourself. So you’re gonna need to deal with your insecurity, such as with marital counseling.
You’re gonna need to practice the Serenity Prayer. You’re gonna need to engage in your own deescalation
John-Nelson Pope: that my, the Serenity Prayer is what I give all my couples. Right. Okay. Do that. I give that to them. Is
Victoria Pendergrass: that why it was on the counter the other day? Yes. That’s why I love that it was on the counter,
John-Nelson Pope: but, but let me ask you, this is.
We, you say that we do this for the, ultimately for the kiddos, you know, the, the children that are affected, aren’t we?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah in, in divorce, probably. What,
John-Nelson Pope: tell me if I think I know where you’re going. Where do you think I’m going?
Victoria Pendergrass: I think I know where you’re going, too.
Chris Gazdik: If you’re dealing with your internal insecurities, if you’re dealing with your internal negative self talk, if you’re dealing with your internal hurts, if you’re looking at your own insecurities, and you’re managing all of that.
Actively with a serenity prayer. Yeah. In divorce, your [00:30:00] kids will certainly benefit, but your self benefits, it sure does on two, right? Yeah. In
John-Nelson Pope: a sense. And I don’t want to say, well, I’m going to use terms good or bad, but you’ve become a better person and you’ve become the person that you were intended to be.
And by becoming healthy yourself, psychologically and emotionally, you’re going to be a better you know, Ex spouse or spouse, if they reunite or, and parent. And so, so there’s a lot of internal work that has to go on, but it has to go on in, in terms of, let’s say if you’re doing divorce counseling, that you get both, both people committed to it.
And then also the rules that, which would be no alienation of affection, you know, no alienation of, of a parent.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. That’s got to be the start, which is why you had on your ideal section the first word was respect, right? And I
John-Nelson Pope: suppose that a person is blaming somebody so much on the [00:31:00] other case They have self loathing.
Oh, say that
Chris Gazdik: again, and what does that mean?
John-Nelson Pope: Okay, when a person That’s
Chris Gazdik: complicated.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, I’m sorry. No, it’s my mind, it’s my understanding, that if a person is blaming someone else for their defi for their deficiencies, they’re actually projecting their own there’s another term their own Feeling of, of insufficiency and self loathing onto that other person and maybe even to their kids, right?
Okay.
Chris Gazdik: It’s a nasty. It is a cycle cycle. Yeah. Get into it. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Did I explain this? No, I think absolutely. I just wanted
Chris Gazdik: to, you know, them out there to To hear that because that’s such a profound reality that happens a lot. I mean, if you’re blaming the other person and you’re attacking the other person, oftentimes you got so much going on inside.
That’s why, you know, the segment here is ironic to me. Like, how do you deal with [00:32:00] the other pals not being ideal? You deal with yourself. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And they do. In Jungian psychology, there’s the idea of the shadow. Self, which is kind of a, of a, of a darker self. That’s forgot that
Chris Gazdik: what is the shadow self in yogi and therapy therapists tune in, listen up.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. Well, the shadow self is, is the person that you don’t want to acknowledge. You want to, you want to say, well, I’m not that kind of person and but a person that’s in tune with himself or herself. or with self is able to say, yeah, I had those aspects in my personality that are destructive. And if I am pointing at the deficiencies in my spouse or my estranged spouse, I’m actually seeing deficiencies in myself, but I want to deny it and push it down.
Chris Gazdik: Jungian therapy, the shadow self. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s a real double edged sword there. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Well, I was taught that [00:33:00] during, you know, when I went to seminary and and when I started counseling. In seminary?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Instead of you picked up a lot in seminary as opposed to I had a third of my coursework in
John-Nelson Pope: three and a half years.
of seminary was a third of it was pastoral care, psychology, psychology, psychology. And of course, young was always well loved and existential.
Chris Gazdik: I had in, in my list of thoughts about how do you deal with, you know, this whole reality, you know, developing I, I is the word that came to my mind, Victoria, Or renewing the levels of respect and understanding that you have, you know, with the other person, but that, but there could be developing with that, you know, there could be real forgiveness and healing in the letting go of anger.
Yeah, I mean,
Victoria Pendergrass: cause also like, I think along the lines, like you can, and I don’t know, y’all might disagree with me. I think that you can like someone, or you can not like someone, but you can still [00:34:00] respect them. Well, yeah, of course. So I see that as like, you can not necessarily be the biggest fan of your ex partner, but you can still respect them and show that in front of your kids.
Yeah, I
Chris Gazdik: got, I got a buddy. I love you, man. I don’t want to say his name, but I got a buddy who’s like, I mean, he’ll say right in front of his kids and they’re a little older now, but he would say eight years ago too. I mean, it’s like, look, I can’t stand your mother. You know, I mean, he’s pretty honest about it.
I can’t stand your mother, you know, but when he comes into town, you know, he’s able to be respectful with her. Yeah. He literally stays in her home. Right. They’re able to kind of, you know, do this and, and have interaction and engage. You know, with each other and, you know, he’s helped her out in different ways.
And, you know, she obviously helps him out cause he’s out of town now, but he, but he’s like, yeah, he says so funny. He’s like, yeah, I can’t stand your mother. I mean, you know what? Something comes up,
Victoria Pendergrass: but
Chris Gazdik: you can still respect her.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. Are you still show up to the soccer games together? And you, you know, yeah.[00:35:00]
Chris Gazdik: So here’s an interesting thing that I have landed on for a while in this segment still of, you know, look, how, how do we deal with the, the other person? And, and, and I must admit, a lot of this thinking has been with me throughout almost all of my career, because it was also based in my personal, you know, experience you know, with divorce.
My dad was chewed up, man. I mean, he, you know, I hope he’s not upset with me saying, you know, he felt like a little boat in the ocean, you know, being basically just pushed around and legal, it was a mess in the eighties, John. What, what happened in the eighties? Do you remember with the guy, basically you have to get out, you have
John-Nelson Pope: to get out of the house, you go to a
Chris Gazdik: little apartment, right?
You’re you get every other weekend visitation if you’re lucky, if you’re lucky, you get blamed by, You know, the woman in society who you’re not providing for your family. You’re a, you’re a deadbeat. That’s when a
John-Nelson Pope: [00:36:00] safe houses were developed, which I think is a good idea.
Chris Gazdik: Or your Disney dad. This is where the Disney dad, you know, image come and it just sucked.
And, and you know, it’s almost like the guys had no, no choice at the time. And. And from that, you know, as I, as I developed into a clinician as a young person, I thought through how that works.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, that was the, the, the father’s rights movement that started during that time. Right. It’s much better now
Chris Gazdik: than it was, but, but, but men in invariably to a man almost to a certain extent, I think almost university.
Universally felt like some level of undermining of them. And they’re going to lose, they’re
John-Nelson Pope: going to lose custody of their kids, losing
Chris Gazdik: custody, losing relationship being talk about parent alienation. I mean, it, it almost happens. Some alienation happens like, you know, with unintentionally almost like, you know, you get off the phone with your dad and the mom is crying and upset.
Obviously, you know, the kids see that you’re crying and you’re upset and you just talk to [00:37:00] dad. So dad must’ve been a bad guy. I mean It’s just, it’s
John-Nelson Pope: natural. I’m, I have been working with a, with a man who’s middle aged and he was very much alienated from his father because mom had left. I mean, mom had taken him and he was, he was basically abandoned, you know, in terms of he felt abandoned from his father.
That wasn’t what his father intended at all. Wanted to stay in touch with his, with his son.
Chris Gazdik: And you feel, you know, so you, so you feel really helpless guys is what the point is here. And now women are in that circumstance a lot where they’re feeling the same things. And there’s some role reversal going on is what I, what I see.
So. So here’s, here’s the underpinnings that I’ve really found true, true blue and they play out. First of all, one, you’ve got to understand the kid’s survival mechanism psychologically will not [00:38:00] bite the hand that’s feeding them.
Victoria Pendergrass: Meaning
Chris Gazdik: the primary people that take care of them, which is both parents, they won’t bite.
Kids aren’t going to bite. So, you know, if you do get alienated and whatnot, With the other parent working against you, you know, you’ve got to understand the kids are under that survival mechanism They’re not going to be mad at their mom or vice versa. They’re not going to be mad at their dad. However They will invariably be drawn to the healthier person But it will take time so you’re needing to be consistent.
Amen,
John-Nelson Pope: brother
Chris Gazdik: Over a period of time, and that is years easily, and the kid will be drawn to the healthy parent. And I’ve seen that play out, John, my entire career. But, and I think,
John-Nelson Pope: I think dads oftentimes get very discouraged because they feel like Yeah, because they’re the ones a lot of times, and I’m going to [00:39:00] make an ex, I’m also going to say both.
So I’m going to argue for both male or female, but sometimes the, the person that is least able to communicate with their kids is the one that there’s a lot of self blame and
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, for sure.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. So I didn’t
Victoria Pendergrass: know. They’re fine. Like I was just going to say, I even have, I have someone who we’ve been talking about consistency.
With him and his kids.
Chris Gazdik: Hugely important. And,
Victoria Pendergrass: just like, and I’ve been trying to like, get him to understand that, which I think he’s starting to, that like, it doesn’t, like he made a comment, It’s been a month. And I was like, I’m sorry, like I’m really, I really like hate to break it to you. Right. Break it.
Break it. But, like, it’s, like, it’s not a long time, like, consistency takes time. It’s the same thing you said, like it takes months, years, sometimes like
Chris Gazdik: not, no, we’re not talking about months here. We’re talking about years. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. And I think that was
Victoria Pendergrass: of being consistent, [00:40:00] like continuing to do the thing that whatever it is, that’s
John-Nelson Pope: one of the first things that we address in, in marital or divorce counseling is, is that it could take a long time, a long, long time and to process through all the confliction and all the feelings.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. To get that expectation that it’s going to be short term out of your brain.
John-Nelson Pope: There’s another thing and I’ve seen with the changing of economy. So this is a sociological aspect of this divorce. Okay. Okay. I’m seeing a lot more, see I do more divorce counseling than I thought I did. You probably do.
Yeah. I find that a lot. I call it the three story problem is people have three stories in their homes a lot of times and when there is estrangement, they can’t, the man cannot afford to leave and he goes to the basement. And the mother stays in the top floor with the kids [00:41:00] and there’s still that alienation.
And so I’ve seen that more. I’ve seen that on several
Chris Gazdik: economic, economic reality.
John-Nelson Pope: They, because when couples divorce, even if the mother’s working their income goes down substantially.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, then the more kids you add to that, the more finances that are required to like feed everybody and find a place to live that can sleep everybody.
And yeah, I get it.
Chris Gazdik: Let me go to one more of my tried and true and solidly consistent for a very, very long time when dealing with your ex. And I want you guys to comment about it. See if you ever thought about it that way. And then we need to move on from this segment. The, unless you guys have other things like that, The, the reality of, it’s a major question, you know, the, the other spouse, you know, the daddy told him about the affair and I don’t know what to tell my kids, you know, like how much to share on what [00:42:00] level do I share with the kids?
It’s a fundamental question. John’s face agrees, right? Yeah. We hear this all the time. Yep. Here’s my landing spot. And I think this is pretty solid. What do y’all think? Because you’ve got to layer in, first off, that the kiddo can ask you anything. And that’s like Parenting 101 that we’re going to talk about next week, actually, with Love and Logic.
Little advertisement there. So, the kid’s got to know that they can ask any questions. And that needs to be reinforced and demonstrated. That isn’t easy to
get the kid to know that. And they never, probably will, get there. But the closer we can get to, the better. And then you allow the kid’s questions to drive, John, how much it is that you share.
Because they will ask you questions, and they will ask you things, and they will bring things to you. And that indicates what developmental level they’re on in order to get the information. It’s a huge aid in understanding In other words,
John-Nelson Pope: being emotionally open and [00:43:00] open to the to your children.
Right. Because the age,
Chris Gazdik: you can’t know by age what to share, you know, let them take
Victoria Pendergrass: the lead. Yes. But then I think you also can set up boundaries when they do ask questions that might be prying a little bit too much. You set up the boundaries to show like, Hey, these are like, this is not something that we’re going to talk about.
Chris Gazdik: Victoria, you might think I’m crazy, but you know, I don’t think that kids ask inappropriate questions and boundary questions like that. Think about it. Now, sometimes they may ask a question that isn’t really what they want to know. Gotcha. Okay, yeah, maybe that’s what I’m
Victoria Pendergrass: trying to get at. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: I’m going to submit to you, they’re not going to ask inappropriate questions.
They’re not going to say, well, you know, I mean, so how many times did you have this affair and have sex with this woman? Right. Mommy. Or this, yeah, did you have sex with a woman, or whatever. Like, eww, the kids understand, like, I don’t want to do that. So you’re
Victoria Pendergrass: saying that you’re leading it by when they’re ready, they’ll ask the questions.
It’s kind of like potty training. They [00:44:00] let you know when they’re ready.
John-Nelson Pope: Or the birds and the bees.
Victoria Pendergrass: Absolutely. Or the birds and the bees. Absolutely. Like all those
Chris Gazdik: different activities. And the flowers and the trees. And Santa Claus and everything else. Everything else in between. Okay, gotcha.
Victoria Pendergrass: I get what you’re saying.
Yeah. And I would agree. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Well, let’s let’s not spend too much time I definitely want to try to be brief on this but but I don’t want you know People listening and are in this situation to not hear us comment about like, you know, the the the legal game here Like, you know, how do they handle the legal game?
How do you handle the the questions and when do I you know, do I do mediation? Do I do a lawyer? Do we litigate this like i’m pissed they’re acting ridiculous. So, you know, i’m just gonna sue You know I hear these things like You know, I, I’m, I’m going to get you for everything that I can get you for is threats that are made and this type of thing.
So, I mean, first of all, definitely do not do this immediately. You don’t want to go the legal route. Don’t do things
John-Nelson Pope: just right off because you’re so angry. Don’t act on that. [00:45:00] You have to step back. And I’m thinking in terms of, of, of clients that have gotten in trouble. Because they actually had some the spouse or the partner say something that was not true.
Like somebody being struck or, now if it is true, you Creative fabrications. Creative, yeah. Creative fabrications, yeah. Mm hmm. And that’s, that’s gonna be, that’s gonna make things That’s a rabbit hole. That’s gonna make things a lot
Chris Gazdik: worse. It is. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a complicated. That’s one of those. Just don’t do that.
Don’t. Don’t. Don’t do that. Guys. Gals. If you’re thinking that way, you’re, you’re going to do your kids and your family and yourself a whole lot more damage when you just do that lie through this. And that
John-Nelson Pope: is going to absolutely destroy communication lines of communication with your, with your children.
Yes. Because. Already, a divorce and a split, it’s going [00:46:00] to, it’s going to disrupt those communications and feelings. You’re just doing harm.
Chris Gazdik: You know?
John-Nelson Pope: So, it’s going to emotionally damage the kids.
Chris Gazdik: Ultimately, I’m thinking when to go legal to me guys is when yourself or others, namely the kids, are being harmed.
Yeah. You know, I mean, that, you know, I just don’t know. That’s
John-Nelson Pope: your primary duty is to take care of the kids.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. And, and, and if you have to do that legally because people are getting armed, you know, that’s when you go into, to litigate. I have no problem with that point. But definitely not in the beginning, and definitely needing to, as you say John, cool down and calm down.
Chill out. Chill out a little bit. Any other thoughts about the legal game? What about
John-Nelson Pope: the idea of the couple separating being apart for a year? In North Carolina.
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh, yeah. So, for those of you who don’t know, in North, we, we are based out of the state of North Carolina. And in the state of North Carolina, you must be separated for a [00:47:00] full 12 months, a full year.
And prove it. And prove it before you can apply or whatever the terminology is for divorce. And that means that you are no longer sleeping in the same house.
Chris Gazdik: Can I piss people off a little bit?
Victoria Pendergrass: So most people get a separation agreement that is like a fit that a lawyer draws up so that that way that’s their proof of like this is a separation agreement.
Right. I
Chris Gazdik: say that because I think a lot of people are frustrated by that as a rule or as a law and be honest with you. I mean, I wouldn’t probably line it up as myself if I was, you know, governor in charge, but I kind of like that one, John.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, you know what I think? I think it’s a good idea. We’re
Chris Gazdik: usually in lockstep there.
Yeah. I actually kind of like that one. I don’t,
Victoria Pendergrass: I don’t necessarily have an issue with it. It drives people
Chris Gazdik: nuts though. I’ve never, I don’t think I’ve ever heard in 20 years practicing the state. Oh, I’m so glad that this [00:48:00] is,
John-Nelson Pope: you know, never have heard it. Are
Victoria Pendergrass: there any exceptions? I don’t think so. I don’t know.
I don’t
Chris Gazdik: know. Maybe in domestic. In
John-Nelson Pope: some states. I think Louisiana. I didn’t know. Yeah, I didn’t know about North
Victoria Pendergrass: Carolina specifically. In Louisiana,
John-Nelson Pope: they have a covenant marriage. I think also in Texas, which is, it’s harder to get divorced if you enter into a covenant marriage, which would be more of a traditional Judeo Christian marriage.
Okay. Basically. Interesting.
Chris Gazdik: They make it harder.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. And around
Chris Gazdik: the world, I know that there are different statistics, but, but, you know, we have divorce around the world. The thing is, is you have to recognize the limits of your systems and you, and you do yourself wise to just. Consult the lawyer, figure out the limitations here.
How does your county, how does your state, or how does your country operate with, with this?
John-Nelson Pope: I’m, I’m going, I’m, I’m going total geekdom. But, but I find, I find it interesting that there are people that cohabitate and have like three or four [00:49:00] kids all, all together. And and then they finally get married and then a year later, They filed for divorce, so they did
Victoria Pendergrass: better as just cohabiting without being married.
But
John-Nelson Pope: you see, the problem is, is that I think that I think it’s harder to be married and I think that then just then living with someone. And I think one has to, to intentionally will grow intentionally as a result of that. So,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, I’m purposely not going to comment because I think there’s so much there, John.
Yeah, yeah, I do. But yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: I know
Chris Gazdik: where you’re
John-Nelson Pope: from my background. I’ve just a hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Chris Gazdik: What about a segment here as we’re running into The end after the dust settles after things settle down Let’s tune your brains into the long Dance the longer [00:50:00] journey the the getting into you know what my my friend Craig I loved him when he said on the show and he’s absolutely right He was going through his divorce and he looked at me on the air and he just said, you know, Chris I don’t know man.
I think I think you just got to be single after divorce for the Like, you know, several years just to, just to get your wise
John-Nelson Pope: words. I thought wise words. I
Chris Gazdik: was like, you’re absolutely on point.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: I’m, I’m almost 95 percent sure he said that on the, on the air. So if he didn’t, I’m sure he wouldn’t mind me saying that out loud.
So after the dust settles, here’s, I’m just going to wrap through these and, and I really want to look at like. What do you guys think? And what can we add? So self recovery is the priority. Amen. Okay. Self care. As we talk about ad nauseum is ever present. Love self care, right? Don’t lose focus on the new relationships or the new established boundaries and, and, and the new reestablished relationships that are there with in [00:51:00] laws and, and, and.
New dating partners and all of that that moves stay consistent with the kids Convey their priority to you and that there’s there’s that your ex spouse also, you know But but the boundaries and the priorities as they shift like that’s a whole discussion on how to manage the new dating partner Are they the priority or not?
But that you have to be conscious about where the priorities lie Lose the blame You Dig into what happened on your end, the serenity prayer, John, you know, on, on the only side of this thing that you can control anyway, as you continue to impressively grow, that’ll affect by far the whole system and then helping the kids avoid a perceived need.
For compartmentalization. I’ll deal with mom when I’m dealing with mom and I’ll deal with dad. When I’m dealing with dad, I can [00:52:00] tell you as a victim of that, that sucked ass. It wasn’t easy. It messed with my head for many years to things that I had to compartmentalize them. She worked to shut that down.
So I, we can do a whole show on anyone. So,
John-Nelson Pope: so dealing with the children. Is that when you and I got people mad at me, a couple mad at me because I did say, are you making your children the priority? Yeah. They didn’t like that. They didn’t like that. They didn’t like being called out. They fired me. Oh,
Chris Gazdik: glad.
It’s a, it’s a didn’t like you. Solid ground to stand on my friend. If you needed validation, which I’m pretty sure you don’t. Hell yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. So I’m thinking that when parents go out and they, they split up and they’re all emotional and they’re crying and all of that. And the first thing they do is both of them, the male or the female and this is not all the time they’ll put.
They’ll go on Tinder or they’ll go and they’ll Yes. I
Victoria Pendergrass: love that. You know what Tinder is, first of all. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: [00:53:00] He’s
John-Nelson Pope: on
Chris Gazdik: it. I mean, apps and new relationships and, but yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: that’s what I was,
Chris Gazdik: go ahead and finish Sean. I
John-Nelson Pope: No, no. The, the, they’ll swipe and then they’ll start entering into conversations. And so one person will be in the basement and he’ll be looking at at matches, and she’ll be up on the third floor and she’ll be looking at matches.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And. They’re not thinking it’s a mess. They’re not dealing with their hurt. They’re damage. No, that’s in them. So I turned up raging and
Chris Gazdik: yeah, John, and the idea is I need comfort and this other person is going to give me comfort. You know what they want? Sex. That’s what that, that’s what a lot of the apps are.
It’s like, it’s a horrible, like, listen, we’ve done shows on dating and, and, and it’s a mess when you’re, you’re, it’s a, it’s a, you know, syphilis is out of control right now. Doctors are telling me. Yeah. And it’s very virulent.
John-Nelson Pope: Virulent. They talk about F buddies, right? Just like, and I’m here, I am 70 years old.
I’m going, [00:54:00] Oh, I’m hearing this stuff. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It’s a nightmare. And it’s all in the eyes of trying to deal with this aftermath. That’s why this section is so important. Like, you know, the dust has settled with your family changing. And it’s kind of in the now what. And you realize I’m not going to continue my life as I made vows.
Ended this partnership, whatever it might be. And, and, and like people aren’t good at just settling down and figuring out your own crap, please just settle down.
Victoria Pendergrass: You can do it. You can
Chris Gazdik: do it. It’s a lot, you know, it’s a lot that’s just moving around in, in their head. And, and John, you know, I was sitting there thinking as we got a little animated, I mean, You know, what are the kids doing on the second floor
Victoria Pendergrass: right in between the two?
Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: if you happen to have three floors, right or yeah, mom’s in the bedroom and dad’s [00:55:00] downstairs. What are they? What are the kids doing in the living room?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah
Victoria Pendergrass: Fending for
John-Nelson Pope: themselves
Victoria Pendergrass: Dad’s on tinder and mom’s planning to refrench. You know, you
John-Nelson Pope: know when there’s a problem is when one of the kids or both or three will act more adult than their age. I literally just had a
Victoria Pendergrass: conversation today with a client about how when his parents got divorced, he basically became the third parent as the oldest of Child and like we talked and like, I mean he knows that the impact that that’s had on his life, but like we kinda talked about it today and like that came up and like that’s a real thing.
And he’s in his thirties now. I mean, as joke goes, he can talk about
John-Nelson Pope: it dis dispassionately.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. As the joke goes, you know, I have to parent my parents, you know, and many people experience that and I. Experience that as well Victoria, you know talking to adults in therapy going back [00:56:00] and managing You know these these realities as though they have to be the adult in the room,
Victoria Pendergrass: right?
Chris Gazdik: What kind of pressure
Victoria Pendergrass: like what ten year old needs to be an adult exactly Victor? I don’t know the
Chris Gazdik: situation. It was ended amazing with this parent alienation circumstance That was the second or most dramatic of our dealt with Oh my it breaks my heart to think what this 12 year old little girl was dealing with
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: and and there was one particular time.
It just broke all of our hearts I mean she was she was in that bathroom over there just losing her ever loving mind I think she almost about did throw up the pressure that she felt because they started going Going at it
Victoria Pendergrass: in session
Chris Gazdik: in session horror show Again, it had a great ending in that case. Oh my gosh.
I mean, it was definitely cathartic in a lot of ways, but just, you’ve got to deal with your crap guys, you know, in this aftermath, that’s, that’s, it’s really like, that’s when the [00:57:00] work starts. You, you, you know, you, you, you had so much turmoil. in this marriage and it ended. Now the work starts and you
Victoria Pendergrass: know where you can do that.
Chris Gazdik: Well, a lot of places, certainly
Victoria Pendergrass: in therapy,
Chris Gazdik: there are other ways to kind of manage this. Listen, divorce care, wonderful program. Wonderful program. You know, churches have, you know, recovery, grief, share, divorce, care, celebrate recovery. It deals with your hurts, habits, and hang ups. There are awesome places, not just therapy.
People can plug in. And, and, and deal with these things. And I’ll tell you, if you don’t, it’ll deal with you. It dang sure will deal with you in your next relationship and the relationship with your kids moving forward for the rest of their, and your, I think the idea is the
John-Nelson Pope: peer support that, that you get with other people that are recovering from divorce.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I agree. What [00:58:00] do you mean? Go, go further. No, no. I
John-Nelson Pope: mean, I, I just that some churches, I think that’s why you were talking about celebrate recovery or, or divorce care is the idea that there are groups that you can be in that will actually there’s sort of a fellowship there and some of the groups actually do steps.
Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Right.
John-Nelson Pope: 12 steps.
Chris Gazdik: Right. So let me read whatever my list is, is worth. And you guys silently think if there’s anything to add, but you know, highlighting that, you know, the self recovery in your own internalized self is the priority self care. The cornerstone of mental health has got to be in place. Not losing complete focus on the new relationships that are in boundaries that are being established and reestablished, ex in laws, new datings, all of that, staying consistent with the kids and conveying their priority [00:59:00] over the years, not months to come, not only months to come and the new boundaries as they begin to shift.
The consistency over the years to come, not just the weeks or months, losing the blame, stopping the blame game, digging into what happened on your end, the serenity prayer that we speak of a lot, and lastly, helping kids avoid this perceived need for compartmentalization, you know, dealing with mom when I’m dealing with mom, dealing with dad when I’m dealing with dad, and ne’er shall the two ever have to it.
You know, yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: I think I see that with every every kid that I counsel that that has that to some extent is the compartmentalization. I would say that’s kind of universal. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: even even the parents that are able to do the whole Sunday meals together thing. John, maybe not universal, but. Pretty freaky close.
If that’s, that’s, that’s
John-Nelson Pope: a rare [01:00:00] situation. And I, I say that’s the idea. And that’s something that we can with grace, except that we’re going to try to achieve and forgiveness and forgiveness and growth and forgive and forgive.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. A lot going on. Appreciate you guys hanging out with this topic. Understand listener.
You look, if you’re in any, like these stages of circumstances, this is, this is tough stuff to deal with. Here are the ideals. Google it, see it on Tik Tok. We did the first segment, but realize it is hard to live into that. We want to move into that as much as you can get there as close as you can get into it, to that space.
That’s, that’s the goal. And, and by all means, you know, recover and heal yourself because you’ve got to. Important job to do with those little kiddos that are still your little kiddos. So be well Hope this has been a helpful conversation for you. Share it with your friends and we’ll see you next week. [01:01:00] Bye