In Episode 275 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we delve into the intricacies of conflict resolution and the cycles of apology and forgiveness. We explore three pivotal questions: What distinguishes conflicts from problems? Should an apology precede forgiveness, or vice versa? And, how can conflicts be effectively resolved? We define conflicts as natural, non-violent disagreements arising from incompatible goals or values, contrasting them with more persistent problems requiring ongoing dialogue and trust-building. We also discuss Gary Chapman’s five apology languages and outline key traits and steps for resolving conflicts, including normalizing conflict, active listening, and seeking third-party help when necessary.
Tune in to see Conflict Resolution Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What is the difference between conflict and problems?
- Which comes first, the apology or forgiveness?
- How to resolve conflicts?
- links referenced during the show:
- https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/relationshiptoothers/
- https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily/
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #275 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] This is Through a Therapist’s Eyes. I am your host, Chris Gazdik, hanging out with Mr. John Pope over there. Hi, sir.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m doing well, thank you.
Chris Gazdik: Alright, and Miss Victoria Pendergrass. Hi, Chris. So we are going to be talking about conflict resolution It’s actually an old term to be honest with you, I think but really about relationships and how we work through problems and conflicts and that type of thing and We’ll have a current event, but this is through therapist eyes where you get insights in your home and personal time in your car But it’s not to delivery of therapy services in any way.
We are sitting here on June the 13th Yes. Correct.
Victoria Pendergrass: So close to Friday the 13th.
Chris Gazdik: It was not Friday the 13th. It is Thursday the 13th. And I do have in hand the book. I know. The marriage book has come in a pub date [00:01:00] of December the 11th. Thank you. Yay. Snap snaps. Very cool. The only way you can get it is in the office.
So stop by and hang out and we’ll, we’ll get you one. But I’m pretty excited about it. I like the green eyes. You like the green eyes? Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: I do like the green, the green really pops. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It, it, it, it surprised me holding the first book and the second book in the hand and to feel the difference. Have you held
Victoria Pendergrass: both of them?
They’re so like, okay, the newer one is a little bit big.
John-Nelson Pope: You feel power. Well, the
Victoria Pendergrass: newer one is a little bit bigger and a little
Chris Gazdik: thicker. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s 50, 000 versus 30, 000 words. I guess I have more to say. Yeah. Yeah, there’s that. Contactedthroughtherapisteyes. com is where you contact us.
Guys, this is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together.
Victoria Pendergrass: Why do you not have that in some sort of cool art form hanging on the wall in your office? Neil?
[00:02:00] Because at this point in your career,
Chris Gazdik: I don’t think he spoke. Did you see, he just sort of looked there.
Oh,
Victoria Pendergrass: don’t put this on Neil.
Chris Gazdik: Oh,
Victoria Pendergrass: shoot. But you know how I have like my Hamilton quote on my thing, my like favorite thing, my favorite Hamilton quote, you need to like. Get a cool thing that like makes it cool. I’m just lazy about this sort of stuff. And then like post it somewhere, and then it’s that like awesome reminder.
This is where I struggle with, like,
Chris Gazdik: I’m so busy, Victoria, to be honest with you, that I, I, I, it’s, it’s, it’s keeping my desk clear.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay, if someone out there wants to get Chris a gift.
Chris Gazdik: Yes, do that. This is the human emotional experience, which we endeavor to figure out together.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yes. And then frame it, make it look really cool or whatnot.
That would be cool. If it came in the mail. You can like hang
Chris Gazdik: it up on your wall. What is the difference between conflict and problems? I feel like there’s a little bit of a difference which [00:03:00] comes first in the apology or forgiveness cycle and then how to resolve conflicts. So, but I got a current event first that I want us to wrap about.
For, for a minute, that is, I think a, a really important topic that has gone on with the news in the political vector of our society, right? And this is the Hunter Biden case. So I’m curious if you guys have even tuned into this thing at all, or if you’ve checked out from, you know, Fox news and one nation and CNN and the like do you know what’s going on with the trial?
It’s now found. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. He was found guilty on all three counts.
Chris Gazdik: Right. Victoria, are you, have you been dialed into this at all?
Victoria Pendergrass: Can you not tell by my face?
Chris Gazdik: Not sure.
Victoria Pendergrass: No idea.
Chris Gazdik: No idea, says Victoria. Okay. Yeah. I’m sorry.
John-Nelson Pope: I don’t. Hunter Biden is a very provocative and salacious kind of guy. That’s
Victoria Pendergrass: a person.
There’s a [00:04:00] lot
Chris Gazdik: going on with him. Why don’t you, why don’t you break down, John, what’s going on with the case?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, the, the case was, I, I, I think was that he the particular case was that he had lied on an application for a gun permit and he had, and he’d said that he had not been on drugs or committed any felonies or anything of this sort.
And he was, but he had lied about that because he was on was it crack? I believe lots of things, a lot of things, poly drug use, poly drug use, but he and he had also was having an affair with his while he was married to his then wife at that time with Hallie Biden, which was Beau Biden’s his older brother’s widow.
And so he was having an affair with her and she’s the one that threw the gun into the garbage. And of course, [00:05:00] pardon, out of school. Okay.
Victoria Pendergrass: And so what, the gun was found?
John-Nelson Pope: I guess it was retrieved, yeah. Was, was found and but the thing is, is that the, the, The case was, he was right. But the other thing was, is that it was a big deal, a big political deal.
So it, it involved the Republicans and the Democrats and who’s guy Trump is a convicted felon, and now also Hunter Biden is convicted felon and some sort of. Karma has been achieved or some sort of balance, you know, between like the Republican and Democratic Party. Right, right. And are both of them going to go to jail or are both of them going to be given a slap on the wrist?
Okay,
Chris Gazdik: here’s the focus point for this current event though. That’s a good rundown, John. But the thing that, that I want to, I want to hone us in on, and I don’t have the politics of it. Hell, we [00:06:00] just lost like all of our audience. Cause we’re talking about politics, right? Sorry. Well, I wasn’t happy. Really, what it, what it is, is about the specific piece of him lying on the federal forum to purchase a firearm.
And here’s the exact question that is on the actual application, right? Are you an unlawful user of or addicted to marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug or any other controlled substance? Right? Let me repeat that. Are you an unlawful user of or addicted to marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic, or any other controlled substance?
And there’s also another one on here that is kind of ridiculous as, as well that I want to pull out. What was it? The wording is just ridiculous. I just saw it. Have you, number 31, it’s actually right after that. Have you ever been adjudicated [00:07:00] as a men, as a mental defective, or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
Those, those are still the things that are on an application to purchase a firearm. Yeah, it’s
John-Nelson Pope: very archaic.
Chris Gazdik: If you, if you answer yes to any of the questions, amongst the other things, then you will be denied the ability to purchase a firearm. That’s, that’s the law of the land, guys.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay, see, to me, and I have no idea what your next question is gonna be.
Right? To me, it’s like, when I take a When I go to the doctor and I take a like a depression screening,
Chris Gazdik: right?
Victoria Pendergrass: And I know what the answers are going to mean if I answer a certain way. And so therefore, even if I might be say feeling depressed nearly every day, I might only put that I’m feeling depressed some of the days because I know.
That therefore, like, the doctor really won’t push me on, or you [00:08:00] know, it’s, I feel like it’s just like that. If I know that I’m not going to get a gun, if I want a gun, if I select yes to one of those questions, That’s what’s happening. Well then, heck no, I’m not going to select yes, I’m going to put no because I want the gun.
That’s the
Chris Gazdik: question. And so the, the, the point that I want to center in on is the discussions that we’ve had, guys, about addiction. Okay? Like, the way that it’s talked about, and the way that we’ve adjudicated laws, and the way that we engage the issues are, are really not accurate to the situation. John, you know many recovering individuals.
They are addicted to drugs. To various substances and they’re in recovery. And I’m not talking about the merits of the case of Hunter Biden. That’s not my point. That’s not my concern, nor I want to focus on us, focus us on that. But this, I know, right. But this issue of the form itself and the law and how we adjudicate these things, how we operate with that is hugely important because anybody and everybody who’s ever been in Alcoholics [00:09:00] Anonymous should not be allowed to purchase firearm is what we’re saying.
John-Nelson Pope: Well. Right? Yeah. Exactly. That’s what it says. Well, and let’s say when you go into military and there are people that are very reticent to say that they may actually have some problems because
Chris Gazdik: they
John-Nelson Pope: might be discharged from the military. Right. And as a result of saying that they go to see a a counselor, a therapist.
Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It’s like, don’t ask, don’t tell. Yeah. And it’s the same thing with being in a mental institution. Now people ask me questions all the time about like, you know, does this in mental health affect me? And honestly, I have not come through many instances whatsoever where it’s really ever affected anybody, but by the letter of the law, If you’ve been in a hospital for mental health reasons, you can never buy a firearm unless you go through a process after being told no because of this form.
And it’s the same thing [00:10:00] if you have any kind of issue with addiction, which is about 10 to 15 percent of our population.
John-Nelson Pope: One size fits all. Right? That’s what they say. I mean, yeah. This really needs to be
Chris Gazdik: changed. This is an issue. And I was thoughtful about that listening to all of the Washington politics with Hunter.
It’s like whatever about that but like This happens all the time if you or anybody you’ve known has ever purchased a firearm You have had to check that box. Yes, or no That means, also, by the letter of the law, if anyone has ever used marijuana unlawfully because in 1985 through 2000 and whatever 20, Neil, it was illegal.
Well, technically it’s still illegal
Victoria Pendergrass: in North Carolina. And it is. So
Chris Gazdik: you have used unlawful drugs. Therefore, no one, should be able to purchase a firearm. That’s the letter of what that says. [00:11:00] I don’t know if people thought about
Victoria Pendergrass: this. Which also means that, like, quote unquote, if you were to be, like, audited as a gun owner and found out that, like, okay, you had smoked marijuana one time in high school, previously, or whatever, that you should have been allowed to have it.
Like, where But
Chris Gazdik: Victoria, she might not get this, John, you will, but Victoria, I didn’t inhale Oh my gosh. Have you heard that one? Yes. You have heard that
one? Okay. Wasn’t sure. How old were you when Billy Clinton was in the office?
Victoria Pendergrass: I wasn’t born. You weren’t born? Oh my gosh. I was born in 93. So it wasn’t 93.
Are you freaking kidding me? Yeah. If it was before 93. No, he,
John-Nelson Pope: he did that when he ran for office and that was, and so that was the big controversy. It was, no, he was, it was 93 when he, when he said he didn’t inhale.
Chris Gazdik: Ronald Reagan was the president.
John-Nelson Pope: No, 88.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, I was getting the decade messed up.
John-Nelson Pope: [00:12:00] George W, no, Herbert Walker Bush was, was
Chris Gazdik: I was thinking high school versus college.
Victoria Pendergrass: I was a little baby infant.
Chris Gazdik: Little baby, but you still knew the statement. I’m proud of you. All right, let’s get out of here. But I wanted to make sure that we spent a little bit of time because, you know, pointing out the myths and the stereotypes, that’s part of our jam here. And this is a major stereotype.
And I think it’s a major issue for anybody that cares about gun rights. And being able to purchase firearms. I mean, that’s just absolutely letter of the law, about 90 percent of us probably are not fit via that form to own a firearm. But let’s, let’s say
John-Nelson Pope: one thing though, and that was, is that it was, he was under the influence.
Well, Hunter was a mess. You’re talking about him, he was an absolute mess. And, and so that’s not, yeah, but, but there’s a lot of other people and I would say more people that would be lying on that account that would not have the, would never have any problems with crime or [00:13:00] anything of that sort.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. So anybody who’s ever smoked weed until it was legal is lying on that form.
Or you won’t get a firearm. Yeah. That’s the reality. Or
Victoria Pendergrass: you do, and then you have to go through whatever appeal process it takes to Yeah. Now that I sh I
Chris Gazdik: wanted to research, I, I just didn’t have time to research that. Like, what happens if you say no, and then you have to go to the sheriff and probably have an interview and a process.
I don’t know if you can or not, or what the deal is with that, or I just
Victoria Pendergrass: shut you down after that. It
Chris Gazdik: shuts you down on the day of the purchase. I, yeah. Even if you have a concealed weapons license. Mm-Hmm. , which I do, you know, you, you can go and you can. Purchase a firearm day of right now. And, you know, and, and, but you have to pass that form, pass that form.
It’s a no, no question.
Victoria Pendergrass: I feel it. We don’t have to get into this today, but I feel like this leads to other types of like mental health stereotypes for like,
Chris Gazdik: Like mentally deranged. I read it to you. What did it say you’ve ever been deemed or adjudicated? Well, like even
Victoria Pendergrass: just like a quick example, like when I, I didn’t, okay, this is probably a mistake on my part, but when I [00:14:00] worked for my agency job, I did not sign up for short term disability when I got hired.
That was because I was not fully informed on what it was that you needed that to have maternity leave and so so when I Before I got pregnant and I was trying to get short term disability. They denied me short term disability because I had anxiety And because I had ADHD, and because I took medication for it, They said, well, nope, because, like, even though I’ve never had to call out of work for my anxiety, or my ADHD, I’ve never, like, missed work because of it.
John-Nelson Pope: And so,
Victoria Pendergrass: like, because of that, I didn’t have Short term disability when I went on maternity leave and like it is PTO is used I didn’t get paid for the rest of my maternity working
John-Nelson Pope: for FML a’s or short term disability is the worst is My one
Victoria Pendergrass: advice from that is [00:15:00] when you get a new job sign up for anything and everything because you can always Sign up for it later, but you Usually it’s in those first 30 days you get to sign up for it.
But I think that leads to other things that say like, okay, well, just because I have. Like diagnosis doesn’t mean I don’t deserve, you know, or it doesn’t mean I can’t handle things or, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s
Chris Gazdik: really rampant with stereotypes and stigmas and such. And as much as we’re better about all of this nowadays it’s still very much has a, has a life.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: So let’s go into this. So what is the difference between conflict and problems? Which. Comes first in the apology and forgiveness cycles, apology or forgiveness, and then how to resolve conflicts. So what do y’all think? I mean, by the difference between conflicts and problems, that those are different.
Victoria Pendergrass: I can kind of like, I don’t know if I can put it into words, but I [00:16:00] can see, feel like, yeah, I would feel like there’s a difference, possibly. Are
John-Nelson Pope: we thinking in terms of, conflict sounds like more of a formal process and and problems are something that is the everyday events that we get into or we find ourselves in situations, not necessarily with other people, but a conflict is usually with another person or even an agency.
Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I think we’re thinking on the same the same line, right? I mean Conflict to me. I mean how many people out there you listening? I’m talking to you Just raise your hand in the air. We could see you not really but do you have conflict?
John-Nelson Pope: Do
Chris Gazdik: y’all have conflict avoidance I mean how common is it that people are really wanting to avoid?
Problems also, but especially conflict. Like, I find this to be a huge issue.
Victoria Pendergrass: Do you know how many people sit down in our chairs and Say those exact words. Absolutely.
Chris Gazdik: That’s why I’m [00:17:00] saying it. I mean, this is real out of our office. Avoidance. This is our office all day long. And so, I want to normalize and specifically differentiate John Connor like you did.
Conflicts happen all the time. They’re normal. We are needing to have them. Yeah, we work through them, but they’re, they’re a singularity. They’re events. And there’s kind of a formal way you can deal with them. Yeah, you get your norms between your husband and wife, or parent, child, or families, or whatever.
You know, we have conflicts, and I think there’s no need to be afraid of them. That’s what we want to kind of, you know, Calm down with. Problems are a little bit different. I almost see that as a little bit more chronic. Like when you have a problem, you have a pattern that isn’t good. And we need to change the patterns, which is what we do.
Oh, okay. I see how you’re saying. You see? You see? You know, we, we, we do in counseling all the time with like counseling towards changing patterns and problems that are there and [00:18:00] maybe resentments that are held deeply or whatnot. That’s not necessarily conflict,
John-Nelson Pope: but when you get two people together, there’s going to be a possibility and a probability of some sort of conflict, right?
It’s going to happen. It’s going to happen because people have two different histories.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. Two different perceptions, two different experiences, two different, you know, everything psychology systems, beliefs, morals, whatever, even in your family, even brother and sister. So I really wanted to normalize that and, and, and look at how conflicts happen all the time and we don’t need to be fearful.
So chat GPT says conflict, a natural and inevitable part. As you said john of huma
needs values or interests. I like your thoughts a lot a little bit better john. It’s like thank you. You know, absolutely Yeah, you’re awesome.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, you are too
Chris Gazdik: my friend [00:19:00] Characteristics non violent disagreement potential for positive outcomes normal In relationships, there’s emotional responses in these conflicts and stuff, but I, I just see them as, as, you know, shorter timeframes specific instances, you know, maybe even normal conflicts between monthly budgetary talks in a household.
But that’s a, that’s a conflict that might repeat. You get into problems when you start looking at the patterns, behavior, chronicity. Emotional insecurities, fear based feelings, right?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, if a person does not feel feels insecure about himself or herself, no matter what one does positively as a partner or something until that person is able to see that they are, they’re, they’re worthwhile and, [00:20:00] and, and worthy of love, then there, then there’s always going to be a conflict.
I think there’s a grind grind and there’s always going to be a problem there. Is there a problem
Chris Gazdik: in the way that we’re talking about it though? I want to differentiate that because I think that there’s a conflict. And, and that needs to be resolved, by the letter of the word, of course, yes, you know, you have a problem when there’s a conflict, and you don’t want to be anal about it, but I just really want to differentiate that so that there isn’t as much fear, oh God, it’s going to be a problem if we talk.
John-Nelson Pope: Is that a problem? Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Go ahead.
John-Nelson Pope: No, it’s just that I’ve, I’ve heard that before that, that is that we’ve had this problem for 40 years or, or whatever, or 30 years and it just never changes, never changes. Right, but and so there’s these little skirmishes [00:21:00] and so you could look at them as possibly of a conflict, but it’s something much greater than that.
It’s an underlying issue with personality, character, self. I’m not sure.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. Yeah. So Yeah, there’s, there’s just let’s move on for time purposes to normalize that and talk about when you have conflicts, you know, how do you guys work with the apology forgiveness cycles that that go on? Like, can we give a direct answer to sadly?
Sorry, you listener. It was a trick question about, you know, Okay. Which comes first, apology or forgiveness? How do you guys work with the apology forgiveness cycles?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, well, you know, it’s, it’s interesting because you have two different parties. Okay, if there’s, there’s a which, which I evidently I’m, I’m learning, [00:22:00] I’m still learning on a curve in terms of marital issues.
Okay, right. But, But, the, the thing is, I see that, that if there’s a real state of unforgiveness and that person is, is so hurt by what’s gone on into the relationship, whether it, it actually happened or it’s perceived that way all the apologies in the world. Are not going to be effective. There has to be forgiveness.
There has to be a, a spirit of, of forgiveness with a person or a willing of the person to say, I’m willing to forgive. I just need, I need time. And so the apologies they, they’re in tandem. They go with the a apology. But the apology has to be authentic. It has to come from the authentic self, not something I’m saying this to, to please the [00:23:00] person.
So which, which one comes
Chris Gazdik: first
John-Nelson Pope: though? Chicken or the egg? Yeah. Well, if we can’t figure it out in nature, how are we going to figure it out in our, our relationships? So I’m, I’m, I’m being a little tongue in cheek there. I’m being cheeky, but
Chris Gazdik: love cheek.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. I think there has to be a predisposition on the person that has been wronged to, to forgive and to accept an authentic apology.
Yeah, I
Chris Gazdik: feel like you’re leaning a little bit to like, you know, you have to have a forgiveness state in your relationship. You have to
John-Nelson Pope: have that, that, that, that bud, that germ that flower that’s, that’s gonna, that’s gonna result in full forgiveness. A forgiveness, you don’t have it.
Chris Gazdik: It lands on
John-Nelson Pope: deaf ears.
Victoria Pendergrass: Can I clarify This just might be me be having an A DHD moment. Okay,
Chris Gazdik: what’s up?
Victoria Pendergrass: But are we saying like, okay, if Jo, or [00:24:00] like if John and I are in conflict and I’m the one that did something wrong. Right? Right. Are we saying, like, which comes first, me apologizing or him forgiving me? Right. That’s what we’re saying, right?
That’s what we’re saying. Instead of, like, it, which one comes from the same, okay.
Chris Gazdik: Right.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, in my point of view, how can, how can I don’t know. He forgive me for something if I don’t ask for the apology other than him forgiving it Forgiving himself like forgiving me on his own without me asking but then there’s but then I don’t know that
Chris Gazdik: Right,
Victoria Pendergrass: like there’s not been I love that you
Chris Gazdik: said that and here’s why I love that you say that You know, it’s because when you really get into the nuts and bolts of this and in real relationships and in real time, you might have the answer and I already tipped it to where, you know, it’s a trick question.
It’s not really a trick question. It’s just so commonly held a belief that you have to apologize to me first and [00:25:00] then I will forgive you when you have done an unkind or an unjust act or whatnot.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, but then Okay, we have these conversations. That’s not the case. Yeah, because then I have this I’ve had this conversation recently Like what happens when the person who you need to forgive is dead?
Sure, and therefore they can’t give the apology. That’s what we deal with a
Chris Gazdik: lot
Victoria Pendergrass: You’ve got to be able to figure out how to forgive them
Chris Gazdik: Right
Victoria Pendergrass: without being able to like talk to them about it because they’re not here.
Chris Gazdik: Here’s the big deal to me. Why there you go Why? Why?
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, because if you, I mean, a lot of times the way we approach forgiveness is if it, it’s, it holds you back more than anything.
Exactly. And so, like, if I, if John isn’t forgiving me, that doesn’t affect me.
Chris Gazdik: No, it doesn’t
Victoria Pendergrass: because I’m not the one that he for whatever reason feels like he needs to forgive [00:26:00] me for something that I did. And so it’s not doing anything to me. It’s for him for him.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, that’s the
Victoria Pendergrass: apology is more for me
John-Nelson Pope: when I get couples and there’s this sense that they cannot let go.
In other words, I’m not going to forgive you. You can apologize. Now, whether the apology is heartfelt or real or whatever even the person that may be apologizing is in a process of hopefully will be growing, but the person that holds on to that, and holds on to their hurt and their anger and, and sometimes it’s a vice grip, a vice grip.
They’re not going to be able to grow. They’re not going to be able to be free. And so it’s important to have the grounds potential for forgiveness. And
Victoria Pendergrass: what I, I don’t know if y’all do this with your people, but with my people, I always work a lot with like, you can forgive, but not [00:27:00] forget. Like just because we’re forgiving someone for something that they did.
Do
Chris Gazdik: you know the definition of forgiveness? I have this in my office. If you see on YouTube, I’m pointing to no, you use it, Neil. He grabs my child’s dictionary. Ah, the child’s
Victoria Pendergrass: dictionary. Yeah, it’s on the floor. He grabs my child
Chris Gazdik: dictionary to put the camera at a certain angle. And I have that in my office because I, many years ago, looked at this definition and loved it.
So simple. And it’s in a child’s dictionary. So I love to take this complicated situation with a person sitting on my chair or couch, open up a child’s dictionary and turn them to the page of forgiveness. And it will say, to let go of anger against. That’s what the definition is.
Victoria Pendergrass: So that doesn’t mean that you have to forget the awful thing that they did to you.
Nor
Chris Gazdik: lose boundaries.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. Nor be
Chris Gazdik: a doormat.
Victoria Pendergrass: You can let go of the anger.
Chris Gazdik: Right. I
Victoria Pendergrass: love that. Right. Actually, ironically enough, last week I was, when I was in your office for that interview, Joint session we did, I [00:28:00] was looking at that and I could, I remembered you had a word in
there that you showed and I couldn’t remember the word and then that’s so funny that you bring that up now, because I was like, what is that word that he uses for that?
Well, I knew he used the child dictionary for specific word in therapy because we’ve talked about it before the podcast. And, but I couldn’t remember her. And so it’s just funny that he brings it up today because
Chris Gazdik: that’s what it is. Look, there is a dynamic interaction that happens. John, we’ll use me and you again, everybody’s in conflict with you today.
Victoria is a, and I am, I guess. Right. So when you and I are in conflict, generally speaking. Or if there’s a, a, a, an event or a problem even between you and I, can we, can we agree that generally you’re not going to be perfect and nor am I. So there’s probably going to be something. I’m going to be
John-Nelson Pope: a little defensive.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, and I’m going to be a little terse or, you know, defend back. And so we, we both have probably done something to take responsibility for. And [00:29:00] also, we both have to have that task where I’m having that spirit as you so eloquently discussed, you know, of a, of a, of a, an attitude of forgiveness and then an active Action of letting go of anger against there are four tasks is my point.
Okay, you have the task to forgive me. I have the task in no order to apologize to you And I have the task of forgiving you And you have the task of apologizing to me right all four Usually is what needs to happen. And there really isn’t any order because as you said, Victoria, when you apologize, that’s kind of for you.
You are taking your guilt and your shame and your, I feel bad. So. I [00:30:00] need, I need to apologize. It’s, it’s, you know, you don’t have to, the other person doesn’t have to accept it.
John-Nelson Pope: Sometimes I don’t make it personal again here, but sometimes my wife and I have to do that several times, all the time, several times before it really is resolved, but.
It is resolved. The conflict is resolved. And so we are able to grow past it. Right. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And, and people struggle, John, with this so, so much. I mean, you know, I do not like having anybody upset with me. So it’s like, I, you know, I struggle to, you know, keep my cool or be in that moment and whatever. And so, you know, when I apologize, I mean, I am taking that off of my chest.
Huh. And taking responsibility for it and then also when I am forgiving I am letting go of my anger I don’t want to be in a resentful state. I mean I have had people in situations where they have [00:31:00] an affair They let go of the affair and the other partner has no idea and they they’re they’re wanting to get that off the chest They’re wanting to apologize.
They’re wanting to feel better.
Victoria Pendergrass: Even though their partner has no idea. No idea. And guess
Chris Gazdik: what? If you’re gonna do damage, then often times the suggestion is to not reveal that. And you have to then live with that.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, it definitely has to be something that you can live with.
Chris Gazdik: Right? It’s tough.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, but you know, we don’t talk about character enough.
No. And I think that builds character, ultimately. To admit and apologize? Yeah, but, but you don’t want to, if it hurts the person, I mean that’s an AA step, you know. It is a step in AA. You, you apologize, but. If it hurts the other person and it causes them more harm, that’s, don’t do it, don’t do it. You have to [00:32:00] live with that.
You share it with your, your sponsor, you share it, you know, in other ways,
Victoria Pendergrass: you come to therapy and you talk about it with Chris, John or I, or whoever, but you don’t have that conversation with your spouse, if that’s the example we’re going on.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I learned this actually from AA. You know, I heard somebody telling the story.
It’s a classic story. They’re making amends and it’s all about this apology forgiveness cycle. Mm-Hmm. . And they’re making amends to the, all of their
apartment, co apartment mates, I guess. Mm-Hmm. door to door. And so, you know, he goes to the first door, top floor and he knocks on it. Person opens door, say, Hey, I’m so and so.
I live in, you know, 2 0 3 downstairs. I just, I’m, I’m, I want to make amends. I want to take responsibility for, you know, loud parties that I had and, and drunken states, I’m, I’m getting sober and clean and, you know, and he had to spiel that he went through and said, Hey, I just, I just want to stop by and tell you, man, I’m, I’m, I’m, I apologize.
I’m, I’m sorry. And you know, door [00:33:00] after door, you know, the persons are like, Oh, that’s great. I’m glad you got sober. I’m glad. Thank you for stopping by. I appreciate it. It’s okay. Don’t worry about it, man. We’re good. You know door after door finally came to a door. He knocked on the door. Do you know this story John?
John-Nelson Pope: No Yeah, this sounds good
Chris Gazdik: He knocks on the door and he does his spiel, you know, hey, I’m so and so I’ve lived 203 and Making amends doing a step in the AA and blah blah blah blah guy looks at him. He says, okay. Well, that’s great You know what? You were an asshole then you’re an asshole now, and I don’t have any desire to talk to you anymore Don’t ever know.
I have heard this one. Yeah, right as door slammed his face and he’s like, oh Oh my gosh. Like I did, that did go as planned. That did I make a mistake? Did I do something wrong? And the thing is, is like, no, you do the apology and that’s a step in AA that’s specifically for taking responsibility and whatnot.
Right, John?
John-Nelson Pope: That’s exactly right. So in other words, it’s not how [00:34:00] they respond. I mean, it’s not about It’s not about that. Well,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, because, like, you also can’t control that.
Chris Gazdik: Nope.
Victoria Pendergrass: So, like, when you apologize to someone, like, if I apologize for whatever it is I did to John, then, like There’s so much to John.
Yeah, it’s not There’s so much to John. It’s not within my control and it’s not my responsibility how he reacts to my apology. It’s just not the point. Okay. So if he
chooses to forgive me, great. If not, then I have to live with the fact that he didn’t forgive me. If he
Chris Gazdik: chooses to forgive you, Victoria, good for him.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right, yeah, good for you, John. Don’t do anything to Victoria.
Chris Gazdik: I do, I do forgive you. They’re, they’re next to our office mates, maybe there’s some stuff going on. Crack on the wall. So, okay, have we, have we hit that enough? Cause I think that’s really people get twisted about that. Shout out to Cass, by the way.
Hey, I see you on YouTube. And yeah, we need to get the, the [00:35:00] forms revised from earlier on in the show.
Victoria Pendergrass: But yes, I do think that the bottom line is, is the apology issue. for you. The forgiveness is for the other person or vice versa. It is for you, the individual. It is not for the other person. It is for you.
Chris Gazdik: And when there’s a problem, usually there’s all four tasks in no specific order that need to happen. And to your point, john, probably multiple times.
John-Nelson Pope: Yes. Yeah, because there’s time passes and so you situations change people change a little bit you not so much and then basically you end up having conflict again,
Chris Gazdik: or even just with the same conflict.
I’m saying you may have to forgive multiple times, right? Exactly. Because he comes back and you forgive again. And he comes back and you forgive again. Well, I’ve
John-Nelson Pope: seen that particularly with people that have suffered horrific abuse physical or sexual abuse. Probably have to forgive a
Chris Gazdik: thousand times.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. It’s like the peeling the onion. And so there’s a new hurt that’s revealed. [00:36:00] And so you have to go through that whole process again. But each time there’s a catharsis that takes place. Less.
Chris Gazdik: Less and less remains right
Victoria Pendergrass: question and we don’t have to touch on this if this is not see that from
Chris Gazdik: time to time.
You’re fine.
Victoria Pendergrass: That’s my anxiety. I don’t want to like. then the people pleas are in me. But, How do you feel like this relates to when people feel like they’re the ones like that they’re being forced to apologize for something or ask forgiveness for something that they don’t necessarily feel like they should have to do?
Like, for example, in an abusive relationship, the. victim feeling like they’re the ones that have to say sorry for do it for, you know, burning the, the pizza in the oven and forgetting like the crap beat out of them. And then they’re like, or just in different situations. Like I know a lot of times in couples, like [00:37:00] there’s times where, especially I think it’s more towards like the apologizing, but feeling like you have to say, sorry.
For something that you’re not necessarily like Sorry for I get what you’re after was it really like within your control to apologize for you know
Chris Gazdik: I get what you’re after and you know, I feel like there’s there’s a lot there that’s confusing with boundaries Right and power structures in a relationship
Victoria Pendergrass: And
Chris Gazdik: and different things that would cause you to apologize when you really don’t need to offer an apology also probably You Cause you to forgive something when the other part, it was just your perception.
You know, there wasn’t anything really there. Although if you feel shame and guilt for what you did. Apology is fine. And so they may feel shame and guilt for burning a pizza. If you need to get that off your chest, okay. But you’re describing somebody who’s in fear.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, because [00:38:00] I think, and maybe this is just me p
Did you
John-Nelson Pope: burn the pizza? No, although I have
Victoria Pendergrass: burned pizza before, yes. Not on purpose. But like, growing up a lot, I used to like, I, something would happen and I would instantly be like, oh my gosh, sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. And like, but I didn’t really do like
Chris Gazdik: It’s people pleasing too. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: And so part of me is like, wait, that’s probably just a people pleasing like part is like, I don’t want to like piss anybody off or like ruin anybody’s day.
So I’m just going to apologize. Even if codependent people will
Chris Gazdik: apologize 10 times over and have done nothing but be sweet.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m probably also slightly codependent as well. There’s,
Chris Gazdik: there’s a lot that goes into that. I mean, I think that’s a rabbit hole a little bit. John, can you sum us up there? Cause I’m curious what your thoughts are.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I think, I think One is, is that it has to be an authentic situation where there’s abuse is never a place where you say you’re sorry [00:39:00] because you have an abuser that could bully you or intimidate you or cajole you to something. And so that, that is never appropriate to, to, to take the blame onto yourself.
It’s it’s only when there’s the so that would give the idea is, is that there is an equality in that relationship. And so if you have with, I would say in a healthy, well balanced relationship, there is an equality there where a person. can apologize for, or, or for doing something, but, but they’re kind of equal, they’re on equal standing.
And I think hopefully that’s where most of our relationships. The more of our relationships are going,
Chris Gazdik: we have an awesome transition conversation for our conversation on YouTube. And the statement is, you know, if in their view, if the apology is not [00:40:00] honest or sincere, it’s not an apology.
John-Nelson Pope: Exactly.
Chris Gazdik: Okay.
Listen to this though. Have you, have you, have you ever heard of Gary Chapman? Yes. Love language. We’ve all
John-Nelson Pope: heard love language.
Chris Gazdik: All right. Did you hear that he wrote another book about, Forgiveness styles just like the love languages He’s got an entire different book that didn’t get as much play I don’t know why because it’s equally as powerful as what happens with the love languages And so I don’t have the title of the book because I just know the material i’ve thought about it a long time But it’s something like the five the five styles of forgiveness or apology
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay
Chris Gazdik: And listen to the five that he identified.
I saw him talk about it live. He came to my church and gave a talk and I was able to go see him live. And he made the joke. He’s like, look, it’s nothing about five. We didn’t research and try to find five. It’s just like, that’s just what came up. The five languages of love and the five languages of [00:41:00] apology.
The first one is expressing regret. The second one is accepting responsibility. The third one is making restitution. The fourth one is genuine repenting. And Victoria, you said something a little bit ago that I’m willing to bet a bottom dollar that your style of apology is this last one requesting forgiveness.
Did you hear her say that earlier, John? She’s like, well, if he doesn’t ask me for apology for forgiveness, like, you know, I can’t, and that’s, that’s what Gary’s getting at here. He really identified a really important thing that if you’re offering an apology, you have to speak it in the language that the person is talking about.
Our comment on, on YouTube leads me to believe that they are a person that is asking or looking for a genuine repenting. And that is to say the genuine words of I am sorry. [00:42:00] And there’s no buts, there’s no qualifications, there’s no making excuses, no excuses, trying to
John-Nelson Pope: justify yourself,
Chris Gazdik: right? But it’s just, I am sorry.
And Gary told the story of somebody who’s like living in a state of, of anger and not having forgiven. And the partner’s like, I’ve, I’ve apologized a hundred thousand times. And I don’t know what you want. And he looked at Gary and he’s like. She never said, I’m sorry, like, wow,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, like all you’d have to do is say those
Chris Gazdik: a genuine statement The other thing is like you say Victoria like if I don’t ask for your forgiveness In my apology in some way you might never even realize That I have apologized now again.
I apologize because it’s me. I benefit From that. But still I am offering something to you and if you can’t even hear it, it’s
Victoria Pendergrass: like, do you forgive me or I hope you [00:43:00] forgive me. I hope you can forgive me. If
John-Nelson Pope: you say, I apologize. And you mean it authentically from the very core of your soul. That’s a gift.
But I can’t
Chris Gazdik: even receive that gift, John, if, and I’ll switch gears. I can’t even receive that gift if I am in the space of expressing regret. Like, you might be giving me a heart felt Very hard for you gift of apology, but you never expressed regret about your behavior to me So therefore I don’t even hear it.
I can’t receive the gift I felt like so that has to be
John-Nelson Pope: a Repentance is something it seems like it’s old fashioned, but it’s something I think We need a lot more of do you know
Chris Gazdik: which one of these applies to you the most? Think about it again join along with us listening here, right? Do you? Look for somebody to express regret to you when they’re apologizing.
Do you want that person to [00:44:00] take responsibility for themselves? Do you want them to make restitution? Like if they’re going to apologize to you the hardest
John-Nelson Pope: thing for me in my forever time being a pastor Is, is to say I regret, I deeply regret, you know I’ve worked in institutions, academic institutions where there’s never from, and it’s particularly if there’s a disparency in power, the, the, the person in authority may have wronged An underling or something or a relationship or like a kid at being a parent and say that I regret doing this to you.
I apologize. I know that I cannot imagine how deeply this has hurt you for, for my actions. Right. I’ve never, and, and that’s so hard. I re, re, re, it’s like Fonzie. [00:45:00] Struggle.
Chris Gazdik: To even have it come out. Yeah, and it might be very well that your style of apology, and thank you Neil, he says the five languages of apology is the title of the book, you know, the reality of it is, is, you just, You get, you can get stuck in such a simple thing and Yours might be if I ever have to apologize to you John.
I’m gonna remember like Expressing my regret that this happened. It really speaks to you.
John-Nelson Pope: You’re right
Chris Gazdik: and you could receive the gift I bet that’s your love style your
John-Nelson Pope: style my apology style your apology style. Yeah. Yeah I, I, I, I think it’s important for me to hear regret. Is it?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t care about regret for me.
I mean, if you regret it or not, you know, I just, I want, I think I’m kind of a sincere apology guy. Like, you know, I, I, I don’t really want to be requested forgiveness at that’s not my thing at [00:46:00] all. But I would love to hear what you have as a plan if you want to say this.
John-Nelson Pope: But that’s the other thing is, and I hope this is for growth is, is that you may have a preference for this, but to just to be able to let go of the of, of ultimately of the anger and all those
Chris Gazdik: multilingual John.
John-Nelson Pope: We certainly can. We can speak Klingon and this
Victoria Pendergrass: for, again, another clarification. Question. Hi, John. Hi. Is this for how you, for how you apologize to other people or how you want other people to apologize to you? Well,
Chris Gazdik: obviously, we’re so myopic. It’s a good question, Victoria. I love that. In my view, we’re so egocentric.
We’re so myopic in our view. We’re so selfish minded that if my apology, love apology style is one way, I expect you to do that for me and I will do my way to you, right? It is. It really is. Oh
John-Nelson Pope: gosh. I have couples [00:47:00] beat themselves up with their love languages.
Chris Gazdik: Whoa. Yes. Yeah. Horrible. Right. Hey, what do you mean by beat themselves up?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, beat each other up, you know,
Victoria Pendergrass: each
John-Nelson Pope: other. That’s what I meant. Yes.
Victoria Pendergrass: But I guess my thing is, is cause while we were sitting here and talking about this, why he brought up the kid stuff, it makes me think of like kids who grow up to be adults and obviously grow up to be adults, but the kids, like when they become adults and they’re in our, our therapy offices and they say, like, You know, I hold this resentment towards my mom, like, because she did this, and, you know, she’s never apologized for it.
And so, like,
Chris Gazdik: That’s a buzzword in my ears now. Yeah. She may have, but go ahead.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right, yeah. But also, like, we approach it from the side sometimes of, like, Like the mom when I’m just like in this example the mom may not realize that like that’s what she was [00:48:00] doing Right, and so then we usually have to talk about that.
Right, but like we were framing and sometimes you also have to be like You can still forgive her without her real like also that you don’t
Chris Gazdik: need an apology to forgive guys gals That
John-Nelson Pope: is not a requirement. Hallelujah. Amen. That is right.
Victoria Pendergrass: But see, that’s just kind of what it made me think of, because I know that a lot of times kids are resentful towards things that their parents did when they were younger as adults.
And so like, then that’s kind of hard if like,
Chris Gazdik: whether you buried it or not, oftentimes we are.
Victoria Pendergrass: Usually I do try to then sometimes, depending on the person, I usually try to encourage them to like have a conversation with their parents about how they’re feeling and like what happened and how they perceived it.
Gosh, that could be so difficult though. Cause, cause, but then sometimes. And this might be going down a rabbit hole because that goes into the perception of like the kid may have perceived it one way But that’s not [00:49:00] what the parent was intending by how they were delivering said whatever again because then you’re speaking a different right?
Yeah, and so in the whatever so that’s a whole nother rabbit hole we could go down but anyways.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. That was Victoria’s abrupt stop. Yeah, sorry. That was my ADHD. I was trying to stop it. Okay, let’s transition as we’re speeding along with time. Conflict resolution. First of all, am I right? John, is that an old term?
Victoria, do you know this term? Yeah, is that a thing as much anymore?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, that’s what I had in my school resources thing. I had a drawer for conflict resolution. Okay, awesome. Slash problem solving.
Chris Gazdik: Okay, awesome. It was
Victoria Pendergrass: all one drawer. I haven’t really heard anybody
Chris Gazdik: in trainings or conferences or, it doesn’t seem like this is talked about as much anymore.
Is that just
Victoria Pendergrass: me? Conflict
Chris Gazdik: resolution? Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: I still get people in my office today, like I had someone last [00:50:00] week. No, no, we do
Chris Gazdik: it all the time. No, I had someone
Victoria Pendergrass: specifically ask.
Chris Gazdik: Right, okay. I need
Victoria Pendergrass: conflict resolution skills. Oh, perfect. And I was like, okay, cool, I can do that. Sounds like my
Chris Gazdik: answer’s no then, yeah.
Good, I’m glad. So how do y’all deal with conflict resolution? I have actually a cool activity that I think is, is cool. You know, if people want a formal way to go about things, but do you have a task? What’s in your drawer, Victoria? Like, what are your all’s go to’s to answer the question that this person evidently is asking you this week?
I need conflict resolution skills.
Victoria Pendergrass: For kids, it’s very different for kids. We do things like activities like hug for. Or like I used to, I used to, my school counseling internship, the school counselor, they are a minute long
Chris Gazdik: hug. That’s why
Victoria Pendergrass: she used to, she would like the kids would always like do a handshake and [00:51:00] something, something.
I can’t remember the rest of it. But I definitely think that like we approach it, we approach it differently for, or at least I approach it differently for kids than I do for adults. Adults is more like. Here are kind of like the steps we go through. Let’s talk about it. Kids, kids.
Chris Gazdik: What are the steps?
Victoria Pendergrass: Do you have specific steps?
Yeah. Yeah, I have like different ones. There
John-Nelson Pope: are different ones. Deescalate. Yeah. Deescalation. So, so, take not, don’t do blaming. If you could avoid blame, avoid, avoid, blame, avoid. Yeah. Or defensiveness. Defensiveness, which is
Victoria Pendergrass: the whole act of listening, like giving each other time to talk. And, but that also
John-Nelson Pope: kind of takes you outside of yourself and so you, you, you’re not so entrenched.
If you’re, if you’re having to do an exercise, and I think this is what’s beautiful about exercises with adults, exercises are very similar to what kiddos would get it just do it in a different way. Part of that would be doing [00:52:00] perhaps even icebreakers that would that would approach talking about kids.
Conflict where people that are in conflict and I’m looking in terms of, of conflict in groups, not just individuals or group conflict also. Yeah. And it’d be able to work through that. And that’s one of the things that we I’d had more training in terms of group conflict as opposed to, to a couple’s conflict, but there’s people that are very adamant and they’re so enmeshed in their anger.
There’s a clinical term. Yeah, I’m sorry. And meshed in there. No jargon. Yeah. No, no jargon here. No, you’re fine. So is, is, is that by doing something that is, might even seem frivolous on one hand or superficial might actually take away some of the, the enmeshment or the rigidity. And people become more open to listening and so that’s [00:53:00] active listening is, you know, it’s
Chris Gazdik: funny, there’s a study that I heard with a science experiment.
I guess I’m going to go into it just because it’s, it’s right on point and demonstrates what you’re talking about there that really enables you. And my friend Adrian made a funny statement about this that I thought, man, that’s on point. In fact, he’s the one that told me about it.
John-Nelson Pope: Hey Adrian!
Chris Gazdik: So, the the, the study was set up around your hand being put into a bucket of ice water.
Yeah. Which causes great pain. Yes. Okay. And the idea is, pain threshold and pain tolerance. And so they did different comparisons, hundreds of people, maybe thousands. I don’t know. It was, it seemed like a good study at the time. Anyway, there was a baseline of how long people typically will keep their hand in the ice bucket, you know, to, to, to score as long as they could, but it wasn’t that long.
And then they did the same thing with two [00:54:00] strangers in the room together and measured those times. And then they took the strangers together and they had them play a game so that there was some time to get to know each other, and then did the hand in the bucket. And what do you think happened with that last group?
They could take the pain lager. They can take the pain longer and the
John-Nelson Pope: ambiguity and all the uncertainty you can take it
Chris Gazdik: right. Adrian made the point. He’s like, if you’re going to have like, you know, world leaders meet together, maybe they should play a game of Parcheesi or something before they hang out and start talking about risk, you know, the wars and everything going on, right?
Victoria Pendergrass: Playing icebreaker. They
Chris Gazdik: do is it’s a silly little icebreaker and stuff. Like you said, John, yes. Because people otherwise are so charged up, so emotional, so in a state of fear, and they can’t take the
John-Nelson Pope: conversation. One of the things just 9 11, when that happened the first thing that, that we did, a couple of pastors and we, we had a [00:55:00] prayer, prayer service.
And it was interfaith, and we invited an Iman to come and pray with us. An Iman? Yes, an Iman. And that is a A Muslim Muslim holy You know, a clergic. A clergy, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It’s like a Muslim pastor, basically.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, yeah. And because he was, he was scared because he was afraid that we were gonna take it out on him.
I mean, for what happened. Oh boy. Yeah. Heck yeah. And this was in Kansas City and yeah, and that, that interfaith grouping and gathering together because we had that shared sorrow, sorrow, perhaps shame from, from his point of view that even though he had nothing to do with it or his. Yeah, Moss didn’t have anything to do with it.
It was, it was casting dispersions on an interpretation of, of his religion, his faith. Right. And for us, it was our anger and [00:56:00] fear that we were, we’re going to have this happen. And so by gathering together and doing a common liturgy. Basically, with our different prayers from our different traditions, but we had a liturgy together.
We were able to resolve
Chris Gazdik: and a liturgy is
John-Nelson Pope: a liturgy is like an order of readings, order of worship prayers. Yeah. That sort of thing. The, our father. Yeah. Something specific.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I love that. I mean, it’s, it’s really powerful. I mean, you, you don’t, you need to understand when you’re dealing with somebody that you’re in a charged state with, you have got to deal with that emotion and level yourself down so that you can really be productive and give and receive accurately and, and fully.
And, and that’s, listen, I call it in my marriage book, the golden egg. It’s, it’s not a small chapter. It’s a full introduction thing. And it’s, it’s really about fostering. That safe space that you create between [00:57:00] two people. And boy, it’s like a sacred space, a holy space. It’s elusive though, John. Oh yeah. Yeah.
If you think you have it, you’re probably don’t. And if you do, you’re going to lose it and you have to build it back.
John-Nelson Pope: So there’s an intentionality of always being proactive and always thinking, you know, how, how do we be open to this next moment?
Chris Gazdik: Let me say that again. If you think you have it, you probably don’t have that safe space.
And if you do have it, you’re probably going to lose it. And you have to recreate it o
John-Nelson Pope: Now, I just think that you need to find another word to rhyme with. The resolution and it would be even better. Okay. I’ll work on that, John. So sorry. I disappointed you. So no, no, I apologize
Chris Gazdik: for having let you, I deeply
John-Nelson Pope: regret that
Chris Gazdik: it failed again.
I regret that I did not come up with the right for you.
John-Nelson Pope: No, I regret that I didn’t hear [00:58:00] that from you.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Let’s just stop while we’re, while we’re behind. So here’s, here’s my specific steps though. With, with a conflict, and then I’ve got a conflict resolution in three steps that’ll resolve any conflict, I believe.
Victoria Pendergrass: I
Chris Gazdik: did a whole show on that, many eons ago, probably like episode 53 with Craig. Oh, it’s episode 40? Oh, I wrote it down. Yeah, on episode 40, I really want you to listen to that because we took a deep dive on what I think are three steps to solve any conflict. Thank you, Neil. Episode 40, you have to go to the website, though, is the only place that you can get that.
So there’s an activity though that i’ve i’ve kind of I don’t know I feel like these things that we have guys are like too mechanical Kind of awkward quirky like I don’t know that people use them as much although they want to have them You know, but it this is one that I heard I think is pretty cool.
You just sit down with a piece of paper Person a with their piece of paper person b with their piece of paper [00:59:00] and you write all three steps out The first one is describing the events Short paragraph or so. The second is a one liner identifying what’s the problem. And then the third step is as much or as long as you want to go on, what’s the solution or solutions, right?
And you sit there and you write it all out and then you come together. And the reason why you do that is because you will remember, perceptively, things differently. And so, simply, what are the events is not a discussion. You don’t even talk about it. You just understand, this is what you experience, this is what I experience, these are the events.
They’re not debatable, they’re just shared. Then, you go to the second one. If you’re not defensive and fighting, I didn’t say that! It doesn’t matter. These are the events that I am operating on. Here is the specific problem. And guess what? How many times do you think two people see the exact same thing as being the problem?
Victoria Pendergrass: [01:00:00] Rarely.
Chris Gazdik: Right? So you stop.
Victoria Pendergrass: Rarely. You take
Chris Gazdik: problem number one and problem number two. You’ve already got one of the problems already solutioned out. And you write out solutions for the other problem. You come back. You decide which one you want to address first. Then you share the solutions. You go to the second problem.
You share and you talk about the solutions. It can cut through a lot of nonsense, but I just feel like things like that are a little bit mechanical and people struggle to really kind of go at it with a method that way. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: One, I also think that, and, and I don’t know what y’all’s, I don’t know, I’m just gonna say it instead of rambling.
Don’t, don’t, don’t hash
John-Nelson Pope: it. You’re a rambling
Victoria Pendergrass: man. Thank you. A woman. A
John-Nelson Pope: ramblin woman. Lord, I’m just a ramblin woman.
Victoria Pendergrass: I also think that the approach is different when you’re sitting in front of a couple versus when you’re sitting in front of an individual who’s trying to solve a conflict.
Chris Gazdik: Well, how the hell does an [01:01:00] individual solve a conflict?
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, no, like I’m
Chris Gazdik: confused. When
Victoria Pendergrass: an individual brings a conflict that they’re having, like, with their Yeah. Oh,
Chris Gazdik: I’m sorry. Their
Victoria Pendergrass: someone Okay, maybe this is a mute point. I don’t know.
Chris Gazdik: Go further. I don’t know. Is it I’m just I don’t think it’s
Victoria Pendergrass: a mute point. No, I just think you approach it differently. Like, I would I wouldn’t probably I might Would do something like that, but We would just talk about it not write it.
Chris Gazdik: Well, that’s what that’s what i’m saying I I I do think people struggle with the mechanical nature of things like this and and I Have the same way victoria I I just talk about it with people and try to instill some of these patterns and you know I you know, I lean heavily on eft. I kind of go there, you know, but okay Let me let me let me wrap us up a little bit then with us with the three steps to solve any conflict Sounds flashy sounds interesting I hope you’re kind of curious because really this is three steps to solve any conflict and I [01:02:00] find that this is pretty accurate.
First thing is, you tell the person to stop. Doing what they’re doing to you. Okay, there’s an assertiveness in there Second is you back off and you give them space and the third is simply you get third party assistance to resolve The issue if if you if you need so and if you go through all three of those steps You’ll solve most problems just with the first step now Also, there’s a lot of variations on how to do each one of those steps, you know It might be you know You know, tell the person to stop, make a joke or, you know, layer out, like, you know, diffuse the situation, diffuse, deescalate, you know, well, deescalate is actually the second one, you know, many ways to deescalate and pull back, back off.
You’re not trying to be aggressive.
John-Nelson Pope: And then I thought. As soon as you said stop, I was going to sing, Stop in the name of love. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: I’m glad you waited just a moment, because that fit better in that moment there. Yeah. [01:03:00] What do you think about my three steps to resolve any conflict?
Victoria Pendergrass: It’s not bad.
Chris Gazdik: It’s not bad.
John-Nelson Pope: It’s very good, I think. I
Victoria Pendergrass: mean, so
John-Nelson Pope: I I’m in conflict with you. I think it’s very good.
Chris Gazdik: Oh.
Victoria Pendergrass: John’s
Chris Gazdik: trying to be in conflict with you.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: and you’re distracted. What the heck?
Victoria Pendergrass: Sorry. I use a simple thing a lot of times with my clients I may have talked about it here before but I use like it’s very similar like the 15 minute rule Which is like when you’re in an argument or you feel like or you’re in an argument.
Oh
Chris Gazdik: 15 minute limit
Victoria Pendergrass: No 15 minute rule, which is Like when you’re in an argument and you feel like it’s not getting anywhere, someone can call the 15 minute rule and you separate for 15 minutes, kind of go in different rooms, go do your own thing, distract yourself for a little bit, cool your brain, cool your mind, gather your thoughts, and then you try to come back together and like come to a resolution.
Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: So the way you would do that [01:04:00] though is that instead of trying to do it immediately at that situation, you would say, okay, when we have conflict we need to, there’s going to be times in the future when we need to separate and walk away.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. In other words, For 15 minutes. Because when people are so, so involved in their anger, they’re not going to, they’re going to follow you into the other room.
So, you might want to say,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, there’s definitely boundaries and rules that we talk about that go along with that role with that, with that therapist. That’s why
Chris Gazdik: I asked you guys, I figured we could go all night with the different things than sort of your go tos, how you operate, what are your kind of tendencies because we’ve all come across a lot of different, you know, facets and, and, and activities to kind of do in resolving things.
But I think we need to wind down and run out of here.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: You know, running the runway down. To the end here, though, I just want to normalize conflict and, you know, isn’t it wonderful when [01:05:00] we work through something and you get to a place where you felt heard, you feel good about the solutions and moving forward, we’re going to be in a better place.
It’s like there’s a lot of hope. There’s a lot of opportunity when you’re in a conflict, and I think people are fearful about that. And guys, listen, you listening need to understand there’s no need for the. fear that is so prominent. Look at it as an opportunity. Calm your emotional self internally and you will find a wonderful engagement with the person that you’re about to engage with in conflict.
Yes. And that’s okay. Right? Exactly. Closing thoughts, comments.
John-Nelson Pope: No, I wonder you’re, you’re, you’re third party more for problems. You, you touched on that a little bit. I think conferences like marriage retreats are a good idea, couples retreats. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because
that’s, you kind of, you’re kind of, you’re stopping the escalation, you’re defusing, and you’re [01:06:00] also being able to reflect.
Chris Gazdik: So you’re pointing out on my show notes, the thoughts of like, you know, yeah, what are the third party places and conferences and marriage conferences and stuff. Right. I had that on there. I’m glad you pointed that out because we hadn’t said that. And, and it’s a third party and it’s a wonderful way to, you know, Hold me tight.
Conferences are wonderful. Specifically. Honestly, you ever hear them?
John-Nelson Pope: Nope. But that sounds good. I like amazing. It’s really old. Be tight. I’m just, that’s from the Thompson twins.
Chris Gazdik: It’s a conference. I’m singing again. It’s a conference on the EFT pattern stuff. Sue Johnson’s. All right, guys, let’s get out of here.
Go have your conflicts and be well. Okay. Take care. We’ll see you next week. I’m.