In Episode 279, we delve into sensory defensiveness, a condition where individuals experience extreme sensitivity to stimuli like touch, sound, light, and movement, often linked to sensory processing disorder, autism, ADHD, and anxiety. We explore its causes, ranging from neurological and genetic factors to early childhood experiences, and its impact on social interactions, education, and daily activities. We discuss therapeutic approaches, highlighting the role of occupational therapy and sensory integration techniques, and offer practical strategies for creating sensory-friendly environments and advocating for those affected.
Tune in to see Sensory Defensiveness Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What is Sensory Defensiveness?
- What causes Sensory Defensiveness?
- What do we do about Sensory Defensiveness? destroyed?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/individualdiagnosis
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #279 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes, coming to you on July the 11th, 2024. So we are going to be talking about sensory defensiveness, which is a different kind of topic. Today than we, than we’ve had before. I don’t think we’ve talked about this a whole much in Victoria. Your reaction to the topic was perplexing to me more on that.
I
Victoria Pendergrass: feel like you were shocked more than the fact that I’d never,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, it’ll be interesting to see how Victoria comes along. Cause I think you got a lot more than what you thought, but what is sensory defensiveness? What causes sensory defensiveness? And what do we do about sensory defensiveness? I guess my questions aren’t very profound this week.
Victoria Pendergrass: It’s okay. They don’t always have to be
Chris Gazdik: we are without.
Victoria Pendergrass: Simple is good.
Chris Gazdik: We are without John Pope this week. He is engaging some business that he needed to do.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: but we have Miss Victoria Pendergrass. How you doing? You had a busy day today, didn’t you?
Victoria Pendergrass: I did have a pretty full day. I was supposed to [00:01:00] have an actual full day.
But my three o’clock Canceled yesterday, which is fine. I went and got some coffee with a shot of espresso.
Chris Gazdik: Oh boy. So this is where you get insights directly in your home or car from a panel of therapists. We all work in the mental health field day to day. I got that book today. Coming out December the 17th, the new volume two of through a therapist size is coming out.
We’re going to build excitement for that. Definitely tell your friends about the YouTube lives on Thursdays. Click subscribe. That’s your job. It helps us get found on Apple podcasts and Spotify and all that kind of good stuff. And contact that through a therapist size is the, where we get the emails that you can tell us how awesome we are.
Victoria Pendergrass: And last but not least.
Chris Gazdik: We do what? We do not
Victoria Pendergrass: offer therapy services. Just
Chris Gazdik: kidding, we don’t deliver therapy services on this show of any kind. But this is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. [00:02:00] So first of all, I’m going to follow through on a pledge. And the pledge that I Oh yeah!
I said, yeah, the pledge that, you remember the pledge?
Victoria Pendergrass: That we were going to start pointing out more followers, subscribers or whatever. No, no, that’s
Chris Gazdik: the other one. The other, the first one on, on the show notes there is anytime I see a mention of menopause, I
Victoria Pendergrass: want to
Chris Gazdik: bring it up and, and just kind of continue to further our national dialogue on an issue that I feel like is just not talked about and not covered.
So I did a piece with authority magazine. It was a pretty cool piece. And so I get. Heads up on topics they may do if I ever want to dive back in I can maybe be featured again with them and I’m not gonna put effort to it But they do have an article coming up thriving through menopause five actions to take for women over 45 And I just thought that was awesome you know because there’s lots of questions out there and you know a Pretty big publication is taken on the topic and I just haven’t [00:03:00] seen that very much and I
Victoria Pendergrass: literally just talked about menopause today with one of my clients.
Well, it’s
Chris Gazdik: something that I think we’re beginning to identify a lot of mental health realities.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And so we’re getting knowledge, we’re sharing it. And I think the world dialogue is starting to happen a little bit more about it, which is nothing but crucial. For, not just women, for men. Well, yeah, and I think,
Victoria Pendergrass: because, and I’m not sure if we pointed this out when we did our episodes on it, but, like, this is literally something that basically every person experience, like, will experience, right?
Like, there’s not, like, there’s not women that are, like, immune to menopause.
Chris Gazdik: How is it that we’ve been so ignorant about it this whole time? It’s amazing.
Victoria Pendergrass: So it’s like, well yeah, I love it when there’s more information out, because it’s literally like, it’s not like you can just The scariest part is not like we have the click remote from the movie Click, and we can just fast forward to, you know, past the menopause years.
That’d be awesome. [00:04:00] Yeah, I know, right? But,
Chris Gazdik: like,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, so I think that this is good.
Chris Gazdik: So, I wanted to highlight also a YouTube exchange that we had. I, I told you, Kord, His name, I guess, is ChordFuse6893. I’m guessing that’s not the real name, Neil. Is that? He shakes his head and smiles, saying, Maybe not the real name, but they go by Chord6893.
Neil, it might be good for your mic if you got it on. Do you remember the conversation you, me, and Adam had at the review?
Neil Robinson: Yeah, we were talking about the social media exodus and those types of things. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah. So, so they said that basically what is this? And I was maintaining that I, I think people are going to be leaving social media and I
said in droves, that’s probably, you know, overblown, but you and Adam thought what?
Neil Robinson: I think they’re shifting social media. I think it’s just some newer thing. And I, I don’t know, I feel like there’s too much of a, well, even he talked about, I [00:05:00] think in his comments, he would go play games with this, you know, go play games on his computer versus being on his phone. So it’s kind of shifting some stuff his nephew.
Yeah, his nephew. That’s what he
Chris Gazdik: does. I just He said, what is this? Somebody made the comment and I explained this was, this was Adam and Neil completely disagreeing with me about this and somebody else chimed in cord and I, and I thought his comments were absolutely cool because I’m really developing Victoria and observation that younger folks, Gen Zers are really going to be figuring out our future.
Footing as a human race with this whole thing of social media. And I feel like they’re kind of realizing this is kind of causing harm and I don’t like it and they’re getting away from it. My thoughts originally came from my son who basically. You know i’m observing we haven’t really talked about it, but basically you do the snapchat you worry about your streaks You know, you’re taking a half face picture and sending it to your friends It’s kind of like instagram this and that and everything and yeah, [00:06:00] you know, you live with it.
Your phone is attached to you and but then The younger generation is getting older. I mean my kid’s 22 now and he’s like I think inherently in his mind, like, I don’t want to do that kid stuff. Like, I don’t think he does any of that stuff much no more. Yeah. So, also I mean, I haven’t
Victoria Pendergrass: used, specifically, I haven’t used Snapchat in Right.
Years. I mean, you’re
Chris Gazdik: older than the Gen Z. But now my husband
Victoria Pendergrass: uses it every day.
Chris Gazdik: Well, it’s still gonna hang on. But then He’s also
Victoria Pendergrass: older than me, though, so yeah, he would But then you
Chris Gazdik: have also Facebook, like I don’t want to do the old people thing. So I think they’re just like, okay, you know what? I don’t need to post my life on a timeline.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, and I think it is also, and I don’t know if y’all ever touched on this on, cause I didn’t listen to the episode yet, but like it also is, I think the purpose that you use social media for, like for some people, it’s their job, like they’re, they make money by, you know, so then they’re more adamant market.
Yeah. They’re more adamant to like, They have to put [00:07:00] like right now is the it’s about to be like the Nordstrom’s Semi annual annual sale or whatever. So like all the influencers I follow like that’s all they’re posting about is all these things that they’re finding From Nordstrom, which is a store. I don’t even shop at like So I just tap through all those stories because I don’t care to see them.
But like yes I mean, I think it depends on also like Like now that I read more, I don’t pick up my phone as often, but because I’m reading my news will still stay
Chris Gazdik: in there. But. Cord kind of was interesting, so he says, I’m Gen Z, and actually find this kind of relatable. Actually, I barely use social media for photos of myself, but read a lot of news on there.
I’m gamer, so I read gaming news and regular news. I do still talk to my friend basically every day on the app messenger, though, but mostly it’s for talking. I do agree about realizing the toxic use of Instagram. I once had a fan page, but honestly I found myself just leaving due to massive stress. When I [00:08:00] was at school my teachers noticed her children didn’t use mobile phones at all, and she believed children won’t like using phones in the future.
When I did, and this part I thought was really fascinating. Neil, you pointed it out. When I visit my nephew, I usually see his phone just left on the couch while he’s in his bedroom playing games. It’s crazy seeing the world change when I was growing up and my friends at school were basically addicted to our devices.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, you literally net, I net like there was a point in time in my life where if, if you saw me, my phone was at least It’s two feet in a parameter to around me, I think.
Chris Gazdik: I don’t want to spend too much time on this, but it’s a new phenomenon that I think we’re really trying to get our footing at how to handle it and what to do with it.
Like, you know, You know, it really does have some damaging impact when you’re consumed by it and, you know, it can be an overwhelming distraction for particularly school and all. So I even think that we’re going to start having laws about all this. So, it’s [00:09:00] interesting stuff.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: But let’s get to sensory defensiveness.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, let’s get to it.
Chris Gazdik: So .
Victoria Pendergrass: You wanna tell him about your reaction to when you told or my reaction, your reaction to my reaction? Go, go
Chris Gazdik: ahead. What was all that? So
Victoria Pendergrass: we were sitting in here, in Chris’s office actually, I was sitting where Chris was, and he go and I go, Hey, what are we talking about today? You were
Chris Gazdik: sitting where Chris was,
Victoria Pendergrass: where Chris is, ah, sorry.
Engli English. Ask my clients today. English has been hard for me all day, so I just, I’m gonna apologize in advance. Come on, man.
Chris Gazdik: Come on.
Victoria Pendergrass: But as she, I was like, what are we talking about today? He said, oh, we’re talking about sensory defensiveness. And I was like, what?
Chris Gazdik: I think he said, what is that?
Victoria Pendergrass: What is that?
And Chris, when I tell you Chris’s jaw was like on the floor. He was like, You don’t know what that is. And I was like, I don’t think so. Like I’ve never heard that necessarily that phrase before.
Chris Gazdik: And it’s fascinating to me that you didn’t. And I think that when we get into it, you’re going to realize more of what it [00:10:00] is, but it’s interesting to me because.
I don’t feel, somewhere in my show prep, I made the statement that occupational therapy, I think, soundly has our field beat in dealing with this, like, I don’t, I don’t think therapists are as in tune to this as, We probably need to be. And I think my theory with that is because people might see it as more of a medical issue and isn’t a therapy issue.
But now that being said, no, sensory defensiveness is a big deal. And I’m pretty confident you’ve got more thoughts about it than what not
Victoria Pendergrass: realizing it’s associated and
Chris Gazdik: in part I changed it. Cause I know you’ve been genuine and we appreciate your. Your forthrightness about having ADHD and this is it’s a big ADHD issues kind of why my jaw dropped.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, I figured that’s yeah
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I was like, how does she not?
Victoria Pendergrass: Know what this is like
Chris Gazdik: you might [00:11:00] have them and right I can
Victoria Pendergrass: guarantee you just based off the name of it I probably do right But I
Chris Gazdik: find a lot of people don’t realize it
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: and it’s maddening when you have this experience like nails and a chalkboard to something
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: and you don’t know why you’re reacting that way
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, I mean, it’s the same thing that we’ve talked about before with it seems like with or at least I’m assuming with diagnosis How just being able to put a name?
You To something that you experience or to have something, even medical diagnoses, like to be able to put a name to this. Experience or thing that you’ve dealt with for like multiple years or whatever. Like that in itself can be liberating and be refreshing to like, say like, Oh, well, I actually have a name for this thing that I’ve been like struggling with for whatever, how many, ever many years.
Yep. Shout
Chris Gazdik: out to JB. This is a J dot B [00:12:00] dot. This is, this was a show long coming that was in my list. Neil, your idea was in there for about two weeks, this one’s been in there for a minute. Oh, the sensory defensiveness? Yeah, yeah, and because it’s, it’s, it’s something that we kind of identified and it was like, oh wow, so more on, more on that later.
What, what is sensory defensiveness? So, Basic chat GPT is pretty accurate. Sensory defensiveness is a condition where individuals have an overreaction or stream sensitivity, but that’s an important word, extreme sensitivity to sensory stimulant. So it’s going to include touch, sound, light, smell, taste, actually movement as well.
It’s often associated with sensory processing disorder, which is actually a diagnosable thing that. I wonder how many clinicians diagnosed Victoria, you know,
Victoria Pendergrass: probably not a lot.
Chris Gazdik: And it also being present as a adjunct component to different diagnosis, very much on the autism spectrum.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: A big part of [00:13:00] ADHD also can be associated or a big part of anxiety disorders that people are struggling with.
Right. So, yeah, I mean, auditory obviously sounds loud noises, Fireworks able to
Victoria Pendergrass: name one of mine.
Chris Gazdik: Happens
Victoria Pendergrass: in the lobby of this what what argument do I have in the lobby all the time
Chris Gazdik: the TV’s too loud Oh, oh, no,
Victoria Pendergrass: the
Chris Gazdik: The lights. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you can’t stand fluorescent lights.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think okay for those?
I’ve ever been in my office that have watched this I have I use lamps
Chris Gazdik: Yeah
Victoria Pendergrass: in my office and we have an alter in our lobby We have the option of doing the fluorescent lights or like the little are you the one always messing with the lights? Yeah, if you see it switched off the fluorescent lights I turn that off and I turn on the other lights that are a lot dimmer and don’t give me a headache
Chris Gazdik: I did not know that.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, and dw does the same thing Because I hate them and like even like I Would love for [00:14:00] you to put lamps in this in this even that like I don’t ever say anything, but
Chris Gazdik: Well, I do that purposely because these are these are daylight light, right? And I don’t have any windows in this particular office. So yeah, they’re valuable to me Well, but the thing
Victoria Pendergrass: is I like it Well one it helps me but in my office people tell me all the time how homey and like welcoming my office Fills yeah, because I use lamps With regular lights, warm lights, instead of the daylight.
Chris Gazdik: So here’s the thing as we go through this. The experience of having sensory stimulus bother you in some way is much more common than I think people think. The severity levels though, such as like a child with autism, has a high level of Of disruption in their life with this to the point that they can’t cope.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, and yeah, I was gonna say there’s probably a little bit more noticeable by other people Like you don’t see me like I don’t sit here every thursday [00:15:00] and go. Oh my god Like I don’t have an outwardly. Yeah, like i’m i can manage i’m fine for the hour So that we’re in this room and then now if I had to like work in this office every day We might have a different issue.
But, like, yes, for someone who has, like, very severe autism, they’re gonna other it’s not just gonna be an inward reaction. Sometimes it’s gonna be, like, a verbal or a other type of, like
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, they’re it’s called self stemming. They’re, they’re self stimming is the way that it’s called. And that is like tapping, hitting, spinning in circles or tongue movements taste, you know, so, so there, there, there are different types.
Auditory, obviously great sounds, loud sounds or particular sounds. Tactile is very common. You know, little kids with the tags in the back of their, you know, itchy sweaters and stuff. And you got to understand people. No one likes an itchy sweater. When you have a sensory defensiveness, the extreme level is, is, is high.
Like most [00:16:00] people can cope
Victoria Pendergrass: with it.
Chris Gazdik: We can all cope with it. Right. Usually. People with sensory defensiveness,
Victoria Pendergrass: they can’t
Chris Gazdik: stand it.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Like they’re probably going to have a meltdown until they change it until they can change their shirt.
Chris Gazdik: Visual, you were just talking about lights and things like that.
Olfactory, you know, people have things that they don’t like the smell of. This isn’t allergenic is no allergies. And it’s, this is, this is, I have a chalkboard reaction. This is like
Victoria Pendergrass: when I was pregnant. And if I smelled. Fish of any kind. I. It is. Would literally. You know what? That’s
Chris Gazdik: interesting. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Like, and I think I’ve said this before that when my husband would cook Salmon or something when I was pregnant he would have to boil a pot of vinegar While he was cooking the salmon, to like mask the salmon smell in our house.
Yeah. So that I wouldn’t, and I would still sit there with like my shirt over my nose, like I’m gonna throw up. This is awful. You know, we’re
Chris Gazdik: gonna talk about the cause, which is
Victoria Pendergrass: And that was just because I was [00:17:00] pregnant. I mean, other than that, I love salmon. Like, I love fish. But There’s
Chris Gazdik: Well, we’ll get to the cause because frankly, we don’t understand the cause.
Okay.
Victoria Pendergrass: And then,
Chris Gazdik: Olfactory gustorial is eating and, and, and, you know, stomach taste, digestion, would that
Victoria Pendergrass: be like textures of food,
Chris Gazdik: food, vestibular is, you know, movement and balance. People get. Really, really, you know, panic stricken in cars sometimes or, you know, various sensations of movement and all. I mean, it’s, this is a well varied process or a well varied experience.
Okay, so
Victoria Pendergrass: I basically knew what this was. I just didn’t know that it had the name. Called sensory
Chris Gazdik: defensiveness. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: So I’m not completely out of touch.
Chris Gazdik: What is this? How can we convey, Victoria? What this is really like to experience you’re saying a little bit about lights, okay First of all, I’ll ask you a direct question.
Yeah, do you do you [00:18:00] have any that causes you I’m gonna say Significant or borderline major disruption as it relates to the ADHD symptomology,
Sounds like a no.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’d have to think about nothing technically comes to my head it’s like That in relation to like my ADHD But also I feel like i’m kind of put on the spot, so I don’t know.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay, but as far as thinking about describing the experience Excuse me.
Chris Gazdik: Have you seen this in a lot of kids?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yes. Yeah, but the image comes to mind of like if you were On a roller coaster that you never been on and somebody blindfolded you.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, that’s good Yeah
Victoria Pendergrass: Like that was like the first image that came to my head like yeah, and you had no idea like which direction you were going What was coming up?
What was happening when you were going upside [00:19:00] down how fast you were going terrifying? Yeah, like if someone puts you on a roller coaster You didn’t know the outline of that you’ve never been on and something they blindfolded you.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I like that That’s it. That’s a like it’s I feel
Victoria Pendergrass: like that’s a fit pretty good like because I mean And because a lot of times it’s sometimes things you don’t have control over.
Like, like if I go into a doctor’s office, I can’t control the lighting that they have. I can’t, if, if I go to therapy, I can’t control the fabric of their couch. Like your couch is leather here or whatever. Mine is cloth. Right. So, like, even that is, like, like, you, and I think sometimes Well, let me add
Chris Gazdik: there.
Because, yeah, you’re, you’re right on. Point with that. The, the, the disruption comes in when you really can’t stand something and you know that you’re going to see it in the world and you have to tolerate being in the world and everyone [00:20:00] else tolerates it just fine, but it’s like you’re blindfolded on that rollercoaster and everyone else is having a different experience and you pick up on that and begin to know it.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It’s then you begin to ask like, what the hell is wrong with me? Why is this so? I know by looking at everyone else, it shouldn’t be. Right. But it is. And kids, especially, don’t have the verbal, you know, ability to
Victoria Pendergrass: say what’s going on for them. That’s where the struggle is sometimes, is that, like, they’re feeling, they’re feeling these big emotions and they’re having these big responses to these different types of defensiveness and they, like, don’t know how to say that.
Like, they don’t know how to go to their parent and say. Like this,[00:21:00]
they just start complaining and throwing a tantrum and then the mom’s like, well, like what the heck is going on? You love this shirt or you love this food, but like, or, you know, and sorry, I’m like shedding over here. What are you doing to us, Victoria? Yeah. I’m sorry. I’m distracted by all my hair. But yeah, like they don’t have the words.
Or, I think, and we might get into this later so you can tell me, but I think also sometimes parents don’t have Like the empathetic understanding of like, or when their kid comes to them and say, I hate wearing this shirt because it’s itchy, or they just come to them and say, like, I hate wearing this shirt shrugged
Chris Gazdik: off.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, your, your parent, the mom and dad is just like, deal with it, you gotta wear clothes today. Like, that was, my kid did not want to put on a shirt today. And I was like, dude, you gotta wear a shirt to [00:22:00]
go to daycare. And now, could that have been a sensory defensiveness? I don’t know. But like, because he’s two and he literally says, Well, that’s the thing, again, His vocabulary is very limited.
Again,
Chris Gazdik: again, Understand how normal this can be and the typical experience with it when something bothers you Yeah, is you just cope with it, right? But with people that are really struggling with this like the nails on chalkboard, that’s not typical right? It’s not typical I’m saying then you have the battles and then you have the distress and then you have the behavior,
Victoria Pendergrass: right?
Because
Chris Gazdik: again kids can’t convey what is going on for them. So that’s where it begins much more disruptive
Victoria Pendergrass: the kid Themselves whether Okay, how do I say this? They may not be able to identify it within themselves. Like, is, is that what you’re also saying? Right. Like, the kid may not be able to identify that it’s the texture of the shirt.
Or food. Is why they, [00:23:00] you know, yeah. Or like, the texture of the, the consistency of the food is why they’re freaking out. Like, they may not even be able to like, depending on their age, be able to like, associate that that’s, you know, Not only the parent not being able to realize it like the kid may not even realize and now
Chris Gazdik: you’re in a power struggle,
Victoria Pendergrass: right?
Chris Gazdik: Right. Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about a very confusing piece of this Let’s do a segment here on what what what causes this and right from the get go Honestly
Victoria Pendergrass: flat answers. We don’t know.
Chris Gazdik: We don’t know. We really don’t break it to you out there Yeah, you know and I think that honestly for me Victoria, I think that’s because It has a lot to do with, you know, the system, the neurological systems in our body
that we’re really learning a lot about because again, of the normalcy of this is so normal to have some sensory experiences that you cope with and don’t like, but sensory defensiveness is [00:24:00] like accentuated with that.
And, and I think it has to do with body systems. We just don’t understand yet.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And that’s why it’s a part of different diagnostics. It’s a part of, you know, different, different factors. So, so, so we talk a lot about the neurological system in this, and then the genetic factors are a factor,
As with most things, you know, if you have family members that had this kind of experience, there’s a good chance that you will as well.
So we know there’s like some hardwiring with this, there’s biological hardwiring that’s going on.
Victoria Pendergrass: But the thing is, is like. How do you study that? You know, like how do you, how do you like
Chris Gazdik: neurology?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, like how do you put that in a case study or whatever to say like
Chris Gazdik: Well, we have a lot of those, you know, we have a lot of those but just to go on a little further What’s curious to me are?
Environmental factors. Like, the experiences that we have drive how we experience stuff. It’s like
Victoria Pendergrass: the nature versus nurture kind of thing? [00:25:00] Kind of is a
Chris Gazdik: lot of the nature nurture question. And people will have reactions based on trauma, or, you know, big events. Or situations or people that really bothered them, and that plays out subconsciously into your many years later conscious experience.
Victoria Pendergrass: Can I give an example?
Chris Gazdik: Sure.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay, so, we, I may, may, may, or may not have mentioned on here before, but I don’t have the best driving track record.
Chris Gazdik: Oh dear.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’ve been Look out for Victoria on the roads. I’ve been in a, Hey now, I have a, what’s quite different now, I have a two year old in the backseat of my car most of the time and that drastically changes how I drive,
Chris Gazdik: but It’s a total ADHD thing though, isn’t it?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yes, You’re distracting me. So I’ve been in a number of car accidents, none really like to, like, I haven’t never been like injured or anything like that, but I will tell you if there is a certain smell [00:26:00] that happens when cars. Wreck, I can’t even describe it. It’s like a rubbery, oily tire. Rubber ish.
Chris Gazdik: Mm-Hmm.
Victoria Pendergrass: smell. I, if I smell that it, I will literally have a panic attack. . Yeah. Because I, it sends me into like all the times that, which, that sounds so bad. All the times that I’ve like wrecked my car and have smelt that, like from my own experience, like I had a one time when I was living in Hickory, I had my window down and I was sitting at a light.
And a wreck happened right in front of me, like a, a small car hit a truck that was trying to turn and I, my window was down and I instantly smelled that smell. And I almost like threw up in my car. Like, it was like an instant. Like I got like, I had to roll up my window. I blasted my air to like, get this smell out of my brain.
It was like, so like the trauma I [00:27:00] guess the point of that is like the trauma from my previous experience with that specific smell. Now it’s not as bad because it’s been a lot long time since I’ve been in Iraq, but is that like, am I really feel like
Chris Gazdik: there’s a difference because I have an example of myself with hospitals when I was a kid going in for outpatient Ear surgeries would lead to me being terribly nauseated from the anesthesia two or three days in the hospital.
And this was like an annual thing for me. So the hospital smell and the whole sterile environment really bothered me. But, but I think there’s very much a difference and this is just me talking between trauma experience, which, which, which triggers through stimuli, a reversion back into that trauma. I feel like that’s a little different than sensory defensiveness.
No, I don’t think you’re off base. I think it’s working on the same systems. I think [00:28:00] the component. of just a genetic, biologically based experience that an autistic kid is having with sensory defensiveness.
Victoria Pendergrass: It’s similar to the trauma. But it puts
Chris Gazdik: it on a higher level of disruption. Trauma triggering, I feel like, can more easily be dealt with.
Victoria Pendergrass: And like, coped and stuff. By
Chris Gazdik: flooding and trauma recovery. Right, okay. And all
Victoria Pendergrass: that stuff. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Then your experience is not as good. The same. It’s, it’s, it’s resolved. Whereas sensory defensiveness in its truest form, I don’t know that we have a lot of resolving of that. So I think there is a little bit of a difference.
Although, you know, they’re kissing cousins.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. I can see what you’re saying.
Chris Gazdik: Because in my show So you’re saying
Victoria Pendergrass: like the example that I gave is more of a traumatic response than like a sensory
Chris Gazdik: As with mine in the hospital. Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: okay.
Chris Gazdik: Right? But I think there’s still a defensiveness in your, or even if it’s
Victoria Pendergrass: only temporary
Chris Gazdik: [00:29:00] in our emotional and physical experience, our brains have interpreted this as danger or bad or whatnot.
And so that creates sensory defensiveness, but it’s just, I, it’s a different flavor.
Victoria Pendergrass: And this is why I think I track what you’re saying. This
Chris Gazdik: is why we have, you know, Neurological system and genetic factors, biological realities, and then emotional factors. You know, the experiences that we’re talking about are more of the emotional factors.
Also the social interactions, right? Like people will avoid the social situations or difficulty with like touch and closeness. Classically, we know victims of sexual abuse do not hold hands very well. They’ll have a very light grasp and that’s a, defensiveness. But again, do the, the, the trauma Even concentration and this affects environments at work and tasks that you’re doing and you know all the daily activities like we talked about [00:30:00] so This is a curious discussion that I want to have at this point
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay,
Chris Gazdik: is this certainly as I just said more of a physical thing or is there emotional causes?
Such as the dog attack that somebody experienced and now freaks out about dogs Anxiety, you know, we do flooding techniques. Is this a like how do we it’s hard to not really know What’s going on and I just try to differentiate between trauma effect and and sensory defensiveness because if we go back to the the tactile Rubbing that autistic kids will do.
They’ll rub their face like this. You can see me on YouTube. This is soothing to them. They’re just, you know, dramatically, you know, doing, slapping, and touching. Paper crumpling and straightening, crumpling and straightening, crumpling and straightening. Like, [00:31:00] is that a physical experience? Is that emotional experience?
Is it both? How does this work? It’s really curious.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s more like, I think it’s hard to say that it’s one or the other. Like I think it’s, just like how I don’t think it’s nature versus nurture, I think it’s, It’s both. Right. Like, it’s a combination of Yeah, and I guess I didn’t plan this
Chris Gazdik: and I, I just spent a little bit of time before I raised that, that section on the difference, so I guess I’m obviously landing on there is differences, but I, I don’t know what higher level neurologically based experts would say about it.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, heck if I know.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, cuz I would
Victoria Pendergrass: like to know yeah
Chris Gazdik: Because they’re gonna talk about the genetic factors They’re gonna talk about the [00:32:00] systems of nerve and nerve ending and
Victoria Pendergrass: but then yeah, like what is Like what is something? Okay,
the paper crumbling and straightening, like, what of that is that exact, like, because then that can be like an anxious induced, like, when you’re anxious, that could be something you have, like you do, right? I’m thinking of a specific situation where a friend of mine did that, and she even pointed it out.
She was like, Oh, you could probably tell I’m super anxious because I’ve crumbled and straightened this paper like 17, 000 times or whatever. But like, yeah, so the difference between that. Or something that happens, like, what, more repetitively, or more, like, severely? Is that what we’re saying? Like
Chris Gazdik: Disruption.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Like now, so then that would almost be like a kid who’s [00:33:00] disrupting class Because he won’t stop clicking his pen Because there is something in the room whether it’s tactile whether it’s whatever sensory issue it is That is Like, setting them off. Is that, like
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. Yeah, and I feel like that’s a lot of a neurological thing that gets disciplined.
And the kid is not knowing what is going on. They’re not doing that on purpose.
Victoria Pendergrass: The kid is doing, a lot of times Okay, so the kid is then doing something that for them helps calm them down and helps soothe them, but then they get confused when then they get yelled at, or they get like disciplined, or you know, they get sent to the office or whatever, ISS, OSS, whatever.
Because it’s disruptive, but then it’s never addressed like, well then like what’s going on? What is the cause of them com crumpling [00:34:00] clicking the pen or crumpling the paper, or you know, like tapping their foot or like
Chris Gazdik: any number of things. But
Victoria Pendergrass: well, and so then what happens, and as I feel like this is from my experience in schools, well then that kid.
If it’s not addressed properly, like then that kid gets listed as like on the bad kid list or whatever, and then he, they, he or she becomes, Oh, well, that’s just because so and so likes to disrupt and do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. They’re doing it on purpose. They’re doing it, you know, for the attention, like their part now part of like, well, this is like the quote unquote bad kid list and, and then like, so then it almost like you get swept under the rug.
And then it never gets addressed or it never gets, like, properly understood. Diagnosed. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Really, it’s a diagnosis issue.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: You know, it’s, it’s missed. It’s, it’s just something that isn’t [00:35:00] thought about.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, because then there’s accommodations that can be implemented through either a 504 plan or an IEP, which we don’t have time to talk about that.
Well, let’s go there in a bit. Okay. Let’s
Chris Gazdik: go there in a bit. Cause I, I, I want to, I want to give a good example of this in, in applying it to a therapy relationship where, you know, I worked with a person for a while and never really knew that they had thought they had ADHD per se. I never diagnosed it. We played around with, you know, some, some different things, so
And one of the rule outs that he really wanted to rule out, which, by the way, is a clinical way of saying, like, I think you have anxiety, but we need to rule out that it’s not bipolar or, you know, something else. So, you know, he really thought that he had social phobia. So, this was devastating for him in so many ways, like skipping out on events. Knowing that he’s going to be [00:36:00] irritable when, you know, you go to the amusement parks and there’s a lot of sound involved with, for him and different things. And I don’t remember why, but, but something wasn’t sitting right with me.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. And
Chris Gazdik: I was I felt like something was missed and he was very appreciative when I brought up sensory defensiveness.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. And
Chris Gazdik: he went and he looked at it. Okay. And we, you know, we talked more about it and he was like, Oh my God, like all my life I’ve had this disruption and I didn’t understand, you know, and he’s in his thirties that this was something that wasn’t my fault. And he explained, like, all of the things that he had missed, and all of the things that he thought about himself, and all of the friends and opportunities that really were lost throughout all that time, just because he didn’t know that he needed to do some of the basic things that he can do to help him soothe, which [00:37:00] is Okay.
Noise canceling headphones and taking breaks from stressful social events. And then coming back to it, you know, helping himself understand, you know, he can wear sunglasses because his eyes, all of this stimulation, it’s social events like light shows and, you know, dance bars and things like that. Just, he couldn’t tolerate it.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: He couldn’t cope and so when we figured out some coping things, he’s like, this was a game changer for him. Total game changer.
Victoria Pendergrass: So do you think that a lot of times people with, I’m just throwing this out there, people with sensory defensiveness sometimes misinterpret themselves for introverts?
Chris Gazdik: 100 percent.
Victoria Pendergrass: I love this job.
Chris Gazdik: 100 percent.
Victoria Pendergrass: Because I literally just talked to a client about this. Okay. Like. And I see them again next Wednesday and I cannot wait to like, actually be [00:38:00] able to like, say, okay, first we’re going to talk about this and then you’re going to go listen to this podcast episode because like,
Chris Gazdik: listen, you know, we figured it out together, you know, because this is missed Victoria, I think in our work.
Victoria Pendergrass: So then, are, so, I guess for clarification, are we saying that people that experience this sensory defensiveness most likely have some sort of sensory processing disorder? such as autism anxiety or ADHD. No,
Chris Gazdik: I feel like sensory processing disorder is actually just a thing in and of itself that is sort of in my mind like a a grab all.
If we don’t know what’s going on, like, we know you don’t have autism. We know you don’t have anxiety, we know you don’t have ADHD, but you’ve got these experiences going on that are [00:39:00] disruptive enough. And we probably wouldn’t see that in therapy very much, but you would see that in schools like all the time, right?
That they don’t have other coexisting conditions, but they have these experiences. So we’ll call it disruptive. You know processing disorders, but oftentimes when you see a defensiveness like this, it’s going to be co morbid means goes with, or goes with something. Right. ADHD or anxiety or autism.
Those are the those are the big ones.
Victoria Pendergrass: Sorry So,
Chris Gazdik: what do we what do we do what do we do with this in in therapy? I I feel like Occupational therapy i’ve already said ot folks have us way beat
Victoria Pendergrass: for sure. They have a huge jump start
Chris Gazdik: Right
Victoria Pendergrass: head start jump start because they they work with
Chris Gazdik: this a lot more in schools and they have so many cool People you know, hairbrush tools self soothing [00:40:00] strategies.
They, they help people understand better what it is and really how to maintain it. Right. That’s what you get in a sensory integration therapy. We talked about modalities last week. This is another one guys that we missed listening because there are so many of them, but sensory integration therapy is a form of OT that basically creates a structured exposure to the stimuli that’s bothering you so that it helps your nervous system calm.
Down when you you ever hear of the brushing techniques.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: right The brushing techniques really is telling your nervous system look you’re freaking out and if you can’t see listening But I’m rubbing my hand right? You’re you’re freaking out. You’re You need to calm down. It’s gonna be okay
Victoria Pendergrass: Like, ice chips, holding on to ice cubes. Yeah. Or, I mean Instead of cutting.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Because also, by the way, cutting [00:41:00] behavior with borderline personality disorder and, you know, depression, I feel like that’s in this domain a little bit.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It’s not usually thought of. In this way with sensory experience. But I’m sorry if you’re numbed out and feeling depressed and you cut on your body, it’s releasing, that’s a sensory experience.
See, this builds into things that therapists see all the time, but I don’t know that we’re thinking about this.
Victoria Pendergrass: Like relating it. Oh, Hey, this could be as most of
Chris Gazdik: the time.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. No, I don’t agree.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Then we have behavioral stuff that we’re kind of doing as the standard stuff. CBT,
Victoria Pendergrass: which is, y’all probably talked about this last week, is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
Chris Gazdik: Correct o. Listen, I think insight about this is honestly bigger than most things.
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: I feel like that I mean,
Victoria Pendergrass: we’ve talked about it. Knowledge is power.
Chris Gazdik: [00:42:00] Yeah. And I think we’ve hit that a lot today. Yeah. But I, you know, when we’re talking about You know, how do we approach this in therapy? What do we do with this?
What do we try to guide you to do in coping? I really feel like honestly the biggest thing is just understanding that your body is different than other people’s body Your sensory experience is different and that that needs to be okay I mean I make fun of the you know Neurodivergence comments or labels we get nowadays and some of the fun terms and memes and stuff But it really is It’s a divergent experience in your neurological system.
And if you don’t know that, you’re going to feel crazy about this.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, I can even see it like causing rifts in relationships and when your partner’s like, well, why do you always act like this when this, this, this happens? And like,
Neil Robinson: I’m going to chime in because that’s half my household. My wife and my oldest kid are very sensitive.
Their taste is high in their [00:43:00] smell. They’re like, it’s amazing what they can catch and do. And then my youngest and we were like, whatever, like we don’t care. And so after we were married 20 years, you, you realize like, she’s like, get away from me because I’m oversensitive or like, we have to get in the car, turn the radio off because it’s just too much at that time or, but then she’ll leave the TV on, but that’s a whole nother argument.
That’s a whole nother, it’s, it is definitely interesting. Like, I don’t think she has dysentery. Defensiveness, but she definitely experiences things a lot more than I do, and it really makes an interesting thing when it comes to the relationship. So I’m glad you hit that.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Neil Robinson: Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: And I think I would also like to point out If you agree, hopefully you agree with me that like, again, we kind of already touched on it, but like, just because you have sensory defensiveness issues or whatnot does not mean like you’re autistic and it does not automatically mean that you have ADHD or that you have anxiety because I think like a lot of times.
And people like to [00:44:00] joke around and people will say like, you know, Oh, you’re autistic. It’s the, it’s the tism.
Chris Gazdik: Yes, the tism. It’s the
Victoria Pendergrass: tism. But that, and that’s jokingly. But like, Realistically, I just want to say like, just because you, we, someone says like, or we’re talking about it or it comes up in therapy.
Like it doesn’t, we’re not saying, Oh, well this means you have autism or this means you have ADHD. So I just wanted to like make that point.
Chris Gazdik: And another point of awareness I’ll, I’ll put out different. Direction, but many people probably don’t know that occupational therapy can be a thing, like going to an occupational therapist when you identify these things in your child can really help your child, maybe adulthood too, but more kids,
Victoria Pendergrass: more
Chris Gazdik: children to cope.
And to, to learn about what do I do to soothe myself. And occupational therapists are, I mean, they’re amazing. They’re wonderful. [00:45:00] They, they sit down with you just like therapies, therapists do and work with you on your occupation or school functioning. And, and, and so that’s like a thing. I don’t think people know that it’s a thing.
Victoria Pendergrass: I don’t have a full understanding of what occupational therapy is. Honestly, I’m not even sure if I have a full understanding of what occupational therapy is.
Chris Gazdik: Well, it’s unfortunate because they don’t just work in schools. They have practices and meet with people and help them with these types of issues.
For instance, I have a training that I went to that I wanted to highlight to help us understand more of how kids function on stimulation levels where You know, you’ll see kids acting differently and she talked about an autistic kid That she was working with because they did all this stuff We’re talking about got violent in school disruptive terribly So and and the occupational therapist came in to work with this child And one of the things that they really began to recognize is that Is is the whole the whole continuum that people operate on [00:46:00] insofar as learning some people are high stimulation learners, other people are low stimulation learners, so the high stimulation learners.
Are really, really stimulated and cannot focus until they have high levels of stimulation and activity, movement, body movement specifically so that then when they get enough stimulation, now they’re really ready to learn. But a low stimulation person cannot tolerate all of this noise and all of this activity.
And so they need to learn when things are calm before things get going on. That’s their optimized learning curve. So so just to draw that out, playtime with kids in elementary school, the low stimulation learners. They’re like [00:47:00] firing off like gangbusters picking up information And then as the class gets active and you go to playtime like they’re toast.
They’re a bump on a log They’re just like zombied because they can’t handle all of that too
Victoria Pendergrass: much.
Chris Gazdik: It’s too much this autistic kid The high stim learners, they took him and ran him, Victoria. They put him in a swing and he just swang and swang and jumped off the swing and ran into the wall and jumped and bumped and, I mean, he just went for like three, four hours.
And finally, they observed that he was settling down and they taught him alphabet. Optimally, during that time. And he knew it. Because this kid couldn’t do anything in school.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Right? So this is a, this is a powerful thing to really understand, like, how we work, what our sensory experience is, how it creates dysfunction for us, [00:48:00] disruption, and how we can use it to optimize our productivity.
Victoria Pendergrass: I feel like this can even be extremely applicable. for adults. Oh yeah. Like, what comes to brain, what comes to brain, oh my god.
Chris Gazdik: Man, you are struggling. What
Victoria Pendergrass: comes to my mind is, like, people who do their best work when they procrastinate.
Chris Gazdik: Okay, what do you mean by that?
Victoria Pendergrass: Am I not getting like the same memo as far, like, people that wait until the last minute where they have all this pressure on them to like, turn something in, is when they do their best work.
Okay. Is that, is that not the same thing? Am I totally, I could totally be out there. Yeah, my brain is already kind of tectonic.
Chris Gazdik: No, no, I think you’re on point. It’s the earlier conversation of defensiveness versus sensory experience and the level of, of disruption, that’s all. But yeah, I mean, listen, I did my best work in college at 12, 1, 2 in the morning, man.
That’s [00:49:00] when I’m, I’m optimized. And particularly at that point in my life, maybe not so much now,
Victoria Pendergrass: but
Chris Gazdik: you know, I did not write my book at 12 o’clock. Yeah, I could not bring
Victoria Pendergrass: a full, pull an all nighter. That’d be bad at this point.
Chris Gazdik: But I wrote on, you know, in the mornings on Saturday and that was optimal for me.
So it’s understanding what’s going on, right? How do we live with this? Let’s, let’s wrap up with a, a segment here on, on, on what do we do to cope?
Victoria Pendergrass: Absolutely nothing.
Chris Gazdik: No, I’m just kidding. No. Drop, mic drop. That’s, what’s, what’s the opposite of a mic drop? The opposite
Victoria Pendergrass: of a mic drop.
Chris Gazdik: So, I want to caution here, as I’m thinking about this, to, to, to, to avoid simply avoiding things.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Okay? We, we don’t want to do that because we still need to live, we still need to function, we still need to go about our daily lives. Well, yeah. We need to kind of identify that, [00:50:00] oh, like my guy, I just need some sound cancelling headphones, and I’m good. I could be, I’m fine. Or he just knows that he tells his wife, I, I, listen, is it too much right now?
We know why, because they learned together. And he goes and takes a ten minute break quietly out in the car.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right.
Chris Gazdik: Right. So, but we don’t want to avoid going to the party. Or the event.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, or we
Chris Gazdik: don’t want to tell our kids you can’t have sleepovers because it’s too much for mommy
Victoria Pendergrass: Right or
Chris Gazdik: daddy, right?
So so we don’t want to just avoid things I think that that’s the same thing that we see with what my guy thought he had social phobia He didn’t have social phobia at all, but people that do have social phobia
Victoria Pendergrass: will
Chris Gazdik: avoid social events,
Victoria Pendergrass: right? And well, so then you know in
Chris Gazdik: therapy, we just don’t go with like, oh, okay.
Great. Good job. Avoid it
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, that’s not Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: That’s not what we do. Well,
Victoria Pendergrass: and so then you create these, like, sensory friendly environments.
Chris Gazdik: Right.
Victoria Pendergrass: So
Chris Gazdik: Which isn’t avoiding the issue. [00:51:00] It’s mitigating some things that are easily mitigatable.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. For example, the client I was talking about, I won’t give too much detail, but they have a thing that they’re going, a gathering that they’re going to, that they’re gonna be like 50 something people.
And we talked about, very similar, them bringing their Headphones, their noise cancelling headphones, but also like implementing breaks. It’s okay for them to go up to their room if they’re feeling a little overwhelmed or a little overstimulated and they don’t want to, like, if they just want to pick a rocking chair on the porch and just watch all the events happen, but not engage, like that is fine too.
Living within what they’re comfortable with, but not completely, they’re still going to the thing instead of staying at home. You don’t have a
Chris Gazdik: dog, do you?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, I do.
Chris Gazdik: You do? Yeah. Do you ever use a thunder blanket?
Victoria Pendergrass: She doesn’t need one.
Chris Gazdik: She doesn’t need one? Yeah. Do you know where they are?
Victoria Pendergrass: Huh? Yeah, like basically.
Yeah, I know where they are, but she doesn’t need one. Again,
Chris Gazdik: [00:52:00] another occupational therapy type thing. We’ll give kids heavily weighted blankets. Yeah, that’s what I was gonna say. Weighted blankets.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. You
Chris Gazdik: know, tighter blankets. Like, I know a guy, a colleague of mine, he would say, he never knew it, but his sensory defensiveness, he would, he would take his wrists and grab them both, squeeze them, and then squeeze into his chest when he was upset, because that really helped him calm down.
Victoria Pendergrass: It’s like giving someone, someone, like, usually someone with autism, but like, giving them a hug.
Chris Gazdik: Can be bad.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, sometimes they need the pressure. So, okay, do you know who Temple Grandin is?
Chris Gazdik: I do not. I live under a rock, Victoria.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. Temple Grandin is a very famous autistic person. There’s even a movie about her.
But, and I think it’s relatively based on her. She also has a book. I have her book. I can let you read it if you want to. But there is a part in the movie where she’s like [00:53:00] freaking out and she is on her like family, aunts, whatever farm. And she, the, you know, the thing where when they’re like branding a cow, it like squishes the cow.
I don’t know what the machine is called, but they like stick their head through and then it like puts pressure
Chris Gazdik: Really?
Victoria Pendergrass: And like ask her aunt or whoever to like squeeze, like to enclose it and the aunt’s like, no, I don’t want to do it. She’s like, but please, like, it’s like, because for her, she was like, that was what she needed and it was really cool.
She actually created like her own device. That was for her that she could get in and like leverage and it would compress her on the sides and like help calm her down. Asperger’s
Chris Gazdik: folks. I mean, we have hundreds of examples of all of these, but you’re making me think of folks with Asperger’s, which I know we’re supposed to say autism spectrum disorders, but I still think Asperger’s is very different.
I’m going to carry that with the rest of my career. Please don’t send me email. That’s hate mail. That’s just the way it’s going to be. So they love to pace. Okay. [00:54:00] Okay, lots of sensory, like you said, the joke is it’s the tisms. Well, you know, your, your kid might want to walk and back and forth when you’re lecturing them.
They, they can’t stand at attention. They need to pace. And
Victoria Pendergrass: it doesn’t mean they’re not listening to you. It
Chris Gazdik: really doesn’t mean they’re not listening to you. And, and there’s also, well, there’s just, you get the idea from our conversation. There is a plentiful. Array of different ways that this stuff plays out Because I had another thought about all Asperger’s folks, but I lost it that they’re really not being rude They’re not being disruptive or mean the thing that they really need help with particularly with autistic people Or
Victoria Pendergrass: Asperger’s
Chris Gazdik: folks is they’re gonna do awkward behaviors in public that are embarrassing Particularly to their kids and they need to understand like okay I [00:55:00] can’t You know, oh, this is what I lost.
I can’t jump up and down, jump up and down, jump up and down, jump up and down when I’m waiting in the doctor’s office. But Asperger’s folks find great soothing
Victoria Pendergrass: on a
Chris Gazdik: trampoline. There’s a famous guy, I forget who he is, but he had a room full of trampolines. And I suspect, obviously, he was on the spectrum.
And that was very, like, he would sit there and just bump and bump and jump. That was his thought processing time and he came up with brilliant things.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Like, okay, I mentioned Temple Grandin. She did a lot with like, Cow, like, oh gosh, I’m losing all my thing, but she did a lot with like Cows and the way that they like, like, the way that they process and like kill cows to like, whatever.
She did a lot of stuff with like, humanizing that.
Chris Gazdik: With what?
Victoria Pendergrass: It’s okay, just look into it. Y’all, don’t come for me. She’s a great person. Don’t come for me. She does a lot of TED Talks. I love her. She’s [00:56:00] great. But what did she do to cows? She like altered the way that they like
Chris Gazdik: they made it
Neil Robinson: more humane.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, okay. Thank you, Neil. I was not tracking. Humanizing
Neil Robinson: and more humane are two different things. Okay.
Victoria Pendergrass: Did I say humanizing? My bad.
Chris Gazdik: Cause I was lost there, Victoria. She
Victoria Pendergrass: made it more humane. Like she made this whole design. Like it’s.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: cool. But like,
Chris Gazdik: she’s helping the cows.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Sorry. I’m already checked out for today.
I apologize.
Chris Gazdik: So what do we want to wrap up with using tools and supports? Yeah. Educating, educating, you know,
Victoria Pendergrass: knowledge is power. Here’s
Chris Gazdik: a big piece of warning that I want to put out there for this though. I don’t sure you have found it, Victoria, just as much as I have. Is it not true to say that our ADHD folks.
Just love [00:57:00] weed. It’s a, it’s a, I have found it over the years to be a completely combined thing because I think it deals with these experiences that are causing disruption and they can just tune them out more with the weed, with the weed, with the weed, ADHD folks tend to love weed. And
Victoria Pendergrass: I don’t know if I would argue, I don’t think I’d argue that.
Chris Gazdik: Right. And, and, and I want to put a cautionary tale out about that because that is something that will take your stress away when it comes to this terrifying, horrible experience that sensory defensiveness can be but just brings on all sorts of other troubles. Right. So be careful about how you’re soothing.
Victoria Pendergrass: Cautiously approach that. Okay. And,
Chris Gazdik: and the last big thing that I thought about that we wanted to highlight that we’ve already talked about is really like, look, these things need to be identified. And when they’re not disruptive to daily [00:58:00] functioning and they are not being inappropriate in public or something like mom and dad, can you please just let them be
Victoria Pendergrass: right?
Chris Gazdik: Teachers, let them be,
Victoria Pendergrass: you know what that goes back to.
Chris Gazdik: Yes, it does.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yes, it does. For the listening
Chris Gazdik: audience, tell them what you mean.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, one of Chris three pillars is love, love and logic parenting, which, which we’ve done episodes. Podcast on it, but it basically states that like you can do whatever you want to except for when you start affecting other people Or it starts impacting other people,
Chris Gazdik: right?
Victoria Pendergrass: And then like they you go in you ask them to fix it. They don’t you say no problem I’ll fix it, but then you correct the behavior on the back end,
Chris Gazdik: right? That’s a good that right? Yep. You got it Yeah, it’s a super short and and definitely check out the love and logic episodes It’s actually one of the few content pieces that we kind of redo from time to time but you’re [00:59:00] right This is exactly to that end.
And it’s not causing a problem.
Victoria Pendergrass: While you’re, you know, cooking dinner and they’re not bothering anything and they’re not harming. I was talking about this someone else earlier today. You’re not harming yourself. You’re not harming someone else. You’re not harming any property or putting anyone at risk like
Chris Gazdik: let it be because it’s, it’s something that is helping that child.
I mean, Classically similarly, but different, you know, ADHD parents are like, turn the music off, you know, and I’ve had countless conversations with parents to say, look, you know, that takes their attention from all of the things that are in their mind because they have that background music that they can study better.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. They can literally study. There’s no way you can listen to music and study at the same time. Okay. Well, maybe not for you, but I can’t do that.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I can’t do it. Do you, I mean, do you
Victoria Pendergrass: see me doing notes out there while I’m playing my game?
Chris Gazdik: Right.
Victoria Pendergrass: Like, that’s literally me every day.
Chris Gazdik: Right. Right, and I think there’s, so there’s, [01:00:00] hopefully we’ve gotten a little bit of awareness out there because I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding about this and it’s caused way more problems than it needs to.
Victoria Pendergrass: I think this opens up amazing conversations for people to, like, begin to have. That’s my hope, Victoria.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Absolutely. And I
Victoria Pendergrass: can’t wait to talk about it with some of my clients.
Chris Gazdik: Ha ha ha! I do love that. Closing thoughts, comments?
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m just gonna stick with my, like, knowledge is power.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I like that.
So hopefully we’ve helped you out. If you have any of these experiences yourself, you’re not crazy. It is, it is terribly disruptive and there are ways to kind of cope with this and identify it and manage it. It oftentimes is a part of conditions that you may, or as Victoria pointed out, may not have.
So don’t go over the board with thinking that I’m autistic just because you have some of these things going on. But when you identify them in your students or your kids or peers, You know, help them to understand and don’t criticize them so badly for being different because it’s really helpful and soothing to them.
So hopefully we helped you with some of this. Hopefully. I hope [01:01:00] you take care, stay well, and we’ll see you next week.
Victoria Pendergrass: Bye y’all