In episode 284, Empathy: Have We Lost It?, we explore the complex and multifaceted nature of empathy and its significance in today’s world. We dive into the definitions and types of empathy—cognitive, emotional, and compassionate—and discuss the factors that contribute to the current empathy deficit in society. From the overwhelming influence of social media to the rise of individualism and the constant exposure to negative stimuli, we examine how modern life affects our ability to connect with others. We also tackle the importance of empathy in interpersonal relationships, community building, and mental health, and provide practical strategies for cultivating empathy as a vital life skill. Join us as we delve into whether empathy can be nurtured and how we can all contribute to a more empathetic society.
Tune in to see Empathy Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What is empathy?
- What factors in life / society affect levels of empathy?
- How do you build empathy skills?
Links referenced during the show:
The U.S. Has an Empathy Deficit | Scientific American
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #284 Transcription
[00:00:00] Hello, this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes on the 15th of August. And we’re going to be talking about empathy today. The title, Empathy, Have We Lost It?, is what’s on the docket with our panel. Miss Victoria Pendergrass, how are you? Pope. The Pope. The Pope. Pachybonum. Pachybum? Bonum. Did you just call yourself a bum?
Oh yeah, I did. Come on, what’s up with that? I was saying good peace. Good peace is Pachybonum? In Latin. Yes. In Latin. But you’re a Catholic background. A long time ago, brother. And I didn’t sit with Latin masses. And I’m mispronouncing it, probably. And so a priest is probably going, Ah! Oh, he screwed that up!
This is Through a Therapist’s Eyes, where you get insights directly from a panel of therapists in your car or home. But no, it’s not to deliver you therapy services in any way. This [00:01:00] is a show on empathy. And the three questions that we’re going to really bang around are What is empathy? What are factors in life and society that affect levels of empathy?
And how do you build empathy? Empathy because a little foreshadowing. It might be a skill that you have to build. And that’s just a thought for some people, for some people. Well, for some people, that’s an interesting point. We’re not into discussion yet. Subscribe, click the buttons. If you like our content, we really need your help.
John, five stars. Make it clear. Make it absolutely clear. Make five stars. One, two, three, four, five. Five, not four. Not four, five. No, it really is a big deal. It helps us out. If you click on the subscribe button, tell a friend. We didn’t get any new YouTube subscribers that we know of this week. So, no one to shout out to, but five stars is important.
Contact us through therapisize. com. Finally, if this is the human emotional experience which we endeavor to figure out together. [00:02:00] So, you were talking about before the live mics came on on the YouTube live. This was your genesis of an idea for a show. Kind of, yeah. Usually when you have an idea, you do the show prep though.
What’s up with that? I didn’t want to.
Ouch. It’d be a very short episode if I feel like if I did the prep, you would still be, y’all, y’all would still be carrying us most of the way through. You have an interesting perspective though, that made you think about this? Yeah. So I, I
work with kids. As well as adults and sometimes happens with adults, but a lot of times what happens with parents of children that I see is they will express concerns that they feel like their child or children like, lack of Ability to show empathy towards others, or don’t appear to have much empathy when interacting with other people, whether it be family members, friends, the parents themselves.
So you found this as a common concern. Yeah, yeah, I don’t have, it’s not like it’s just one, one kid that I see, it’s, it kind of happens. [00:03:00] And, you know, working in the school system I mean, I’m impressed with that, honestly, because I’ve never really noticed that working with kids. Yeah, I, I don’t know, I, I wasn’t too good at that.
Well, I mean, it did happen, it made me think of it recently because I had a kid last week who’s, Yeah, and I was like, huh, that’s kind of like, that’s not the first time that’s happened. I’m glad I asked you because it’s a good topic that we didn’t have. I didn’t really have listed, but John, let me just open it up to you.
Oh no. Okay. Okay. Go ahead. I’m joking. This crew needs some juice today, Neil. Yes. Can you go get us some coffee? I tried to go get some coffee or something and the coffee shop was closed. It’s closed. It’s closed. It’s closed. Oh my goodness. It was closed, John. No, I didn’t go to your Dunkin’s though, I should have went to Dunkin.
Yes. I went to the nice one down the street. Oh, okay. They didn’t have anything. Yeah. So, do we need to turn the mics off and do some jumping jacks or something? No. No, no, we’re fine. We’re fine. I’m ready to go. I’m ready to go through it. So, tell us about [00:04:00] empathy, John. Well, empathy is I’m curious what you see with this topic, honestly.
Well, empathy is You know, one of, one of the things in terms of our perspective as therapists empathy is a, one of our, what Carl Rogers, who’s father of basically of a school of thought of counseling, which is person centered or client centered, right? That is one of the core conditions in order to be a good therapist.
You have to have empathy. You have to have empathy. Interesting. Now I heard that. I didn’t think about this. There’s core conditions. And so it’s empathy, congruence and unconditional positive regard. Okay. Okay. And you have to have all those three elements, which contribute to empathy. My thing is, is that I noticed that you’ve taken your research from Scientific American.
Okay. You noticed that? Yeah. Yes, I did. And, and the thing is, is that Scientific American is something that would believe very strongly in evidence based [00:05:00] aspects and how does one measure empathy? So I got a good article. You got a good article. Yeah. That was a very good. Were you afraid that he was going to take that the other direction and he was going to be like wrong?
Actually a little bit, Victoria. A little bit. A wrong article. No, no. And the thing is, is that I think that in terms of what we can be as therapists is to to be authentic and to be empathetic. And we can model that. Empathy, particularly Victoria with the children who seem to be lacking empathy sometimes, but is it that’s also a developmental issue in it?
Yeah, I think it really is more so for for kids. I think that’s why I’ve never really in all my years with kids focused on that as a. Main concern I guess if parents brought it to me. I was kind of like Well, he’s their kids. So I’m just talking about parenting stuff Yeah, I think sometimes the concern is more like as the kids get more like yeah when they’re like They’re not gonna be well [00:06:00] 13 and 14 or older I was like 35 Empathetic I mean they’re gonna not Be empathetic.
Right. Yeah. And I do think that sometimes it does require a little bit of like psycho education for the parents and like understanding that like, that’s sometimes normal depending on the kid’s age and like, you know, as long, yeah, like, so let’s get into this with what this is. Cause I think that the, you, the listening audience have a lot of, Confusion or curiosity really about what if we get in the weeds this is and and and I say that because Yeah, the scientific american link that we have in the article.
You’ll make sure we have that up for you Really laid it out. I think when they said quote i’m going to read I rarely do but When lay people are surveyed on how they define empathy the range of answers is wide as well Some people think empathy is a feeling [00:07:00] others focus on what a person does or says You Some think it’s being good at reading someone’s nonverbal cues, while others include the mental orientation of putting oneself in someone’s shoes.
Still others see empathy as the ability or effort to imagine others feelings. Or as just feeling connected or relating to somebody. Something is a moral stance to be concerned about other people’s welfare and a desire to help them out. Sometimes it seems like empathy is just another way of saying being a nice and decent person.
So actions, feelings, perspectives, motives, values, all of these are quote, empathy, according to someone. I just thought that was pretty freaking broad.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Very broad. Yeah, that covers a lot of different things. Right. I wasn’t going to use that until I was perusing the article and I went back up and [00:08:00] how they introduced the topic and stuff and I was like, dude, do people think all of those things about empathy?
That’s why I think Roger’s definition is better, Carl Roger’s, because it also brings in the aspect of congruency, transparency, authenticity. Yeah, and I think that’s what is an aspect. And so you could have this. It seems like you’re throwing in everything, including kitchen sink with this definition. So I think it’s like it has to be.
This wasn’t their definition. Just to be just to be clear. These are people’s definition. Yeah, multiple factors of many people they talked to were saying these things about the concept, you know what it is to them. Yeah. So then do you want to give like a more clear and defy such a GPT like, you know, they go understanding and sharing.
Well, that’s right. Work at a computer to, to make a definition of it. I mean, yeah, it’s amazing. This is, this is a, this [00:09:00] is empathy. Empathy is understanding. Does not compute the feelings of another person that we just lost half the audience. John, thanks for that. Yeah, sorry. And she just snorted. Google is a being aware of and sharing other person’s feelings, experiences, and emotions.
I mean, I think that that gets to, you know, Carl Rogers was talking to therapy people about how to do a good service. Which I think that he’s targeting a lot of things. Can we even make empathy simpler by these kind of concepts than what he might have been thinking? What do you think? Yeah, well Yeah, I think so, but I really do think that Empathy is the willingness at least in my mind the willingness to go to the deepest corners of the person that you’re relating to in other words that They they can feel that [00:10:00] they’re not going to be rejected By by you.
Hmm. And so I know, again, that’s more of an active thing and, and so I believe a empathy is an action. Okay. You, in other words, it you can’t, I, I think empathy is, is something that has to be learned, practiced. Okay. Now I was gonna ask you that. So, so you say empathy is something that you learned in practice.
Do you see it as a skill? You see it as an action? Well then we would. Talk about therapy there when we, it’s this is a skill as therapist. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A skill. It has to be a skill. Well, okay. Is it, is it a skill or a condition? I guess, you know, I mean, because we have other things like, you know, transparency, I mean, that’s, that’s not a skill that’s you’re willing to be transparent or not.
You don’t think you have to practice at that? Well, thank you, John. You’re absolutely on point. I agree. I mean, I think it’s a skill. I think [00:11:00] it’s, I think it’s purely skillful in a lot of ways, rather than I would like it to be automatically. I think there’s a question. Are we, would you think in terms of the nature of, of people that, that we are naturally a transparent and nationally empathetic?
I, I’m not, I don’t know if that’s a, that’s a nature thing from the tabula rosa thing or not. Yeah. Well, cause I almost see it as Thinking back to my time in grad school, how I remember, and this might not be specifically towards empathy, but I remember like professors making comments or statements about how, like, and I guess this applies for any job, but that like some people are more naturally like, Good at being a there like they’re just naturally good at being a therapist whereas other people have to work a little bit harder [00:12:00] to Become a good therapist, and so I don’t know if I if empathy is like along those same lines I think it is it well, maybe it’s still a skill that’s learned But for some people it comes a lot easier to them Than other people who have to like work a little bit harder at being like purposely being empathetic So that brings up another interesting component I’m listening to you and I’m thinking, you know, there are limitations that we have.
We’re going to talk about them clinically here tonight a little bit, but you’re right. People have different starting spaces. I mean, for some reason we’re talking about therapists today, but that’s cool because we could use it that way. But that’s true. A therapist dies. Well, this is true. This is true.
That’s my fault. No, no, you’re on point. The thing of it is, is, is it fair to say that a therapist would start out? If you took, if you took a hundred therapists, there’d be different starting spots with this skill and some, and, and some have limitations because I’m wondering, can you empathize with things that you just don’t [00:13:00] understand?
Because if you look at the definition, right, you know, sharing other person’s feelings and experiences and emotions. Being aware of and sharing if you’re not aware, I mean, therapists spend a lot of time, I think, in the first several years of practice, getting aware of, you know, putting yourself in people’s shoes, but I’ve spent a lot of time doing that, and it took a while to be able to get some understanding of some things.
Well, that’s. So it’s a lifelong process. I think that’s, that’s not just something that therapists automatically have or that that they’re the only ones that do this. I, and so I wasn’t trying to say that it was just therapists through that, but there’s a point that maybe we as therapists, if we work.
On our own selves and are authentic and transparent that we will be able to help others become more [00:14:00] authentic and transparent and empathetic. I love your modeling on concept there because there’s, there really is sadly some very seriously modeled deficits in people’s lives for this. Think of substance abuse families or.
You know, dealing with levels of toxicity or abusive relationships or all sorts of situations. And we’ll talk about that a little bit, but you’re not really having a good starting block in that, are you? No, you’re not. And I’m thinking in terms of the way our, our, everything is fragmented in our society now and we don’t have institutions that, that would encourage the development of empathy.
We’re going to talk a lot about that. Okay, good. Yeah. I think we’re going to talk a lot about that because I think there’s a lot of factors that do go into this. So this was interesting though. I hadn’t really thought of this guys that it was broken down into different types of empathy. You ever heard or thought of the different types of empathy?
This is, that was a, you could see it? Yeah, but [00:15:00] I, I had Oh, you see it on the sheet, yeah. Well, I mean, I, yeah, but I, never mind, just keep going. I haven’t thought in those terms. I’ve not thought in those terms before. But, I haven’t either, at all. Yeah, so they laid it out in a way that I thought was kind of interesting.
Cognitive empathy. So that’s the ability to understand someone else’s perspective or mental state. So you empathize with cognition? Mm-Hmm. . I get what you’re thinking. I get how you see that, that way I understand your perspective. Like that’s empathizing cog cognitive empathy, I guess. Is that from the essay Scientific American article?
I’m not sure where I got this actually. Okay. I blended it all together, I think. Okay. And then there’s emotional empathy, which is the ability to share the feelings, you know, of yours with others and others with you. So the emotional empathy is the on the emotional level. And then lastly, the compassionate empathy, which is going beyond understanding.
Maybe like you said, John, to [00:16:00] all corners of a person and, and really feeling and taking action to help them. So you have an empathetic compassion to be in their world and to be helpful. Well, that’s kind of in a similar, I guess it’s like Fowler’s stages of, of development. Yeah. In terms of of moral development is I do not know Fowler’s stages.
Well, there’s okay. Well, let me let me say this. Okay. I think there’s the there is the cognitive empathy, which I think we are introduced to primarily early, pretty early. Okay. And then the emotional empathy. And I think in terms of people developmentally going through high school and having their hearts crushed and ripped out of their chest.
Ouch. Yeah. Yeah. But what you, what you do is your heart grows back and you become stronger. Yeah. Then the compassion and empathy is a higher stage. [00:17:00] And I think you have to have all three. In order to try to practice. Yeah. Yeah, practice or be a human being. Yeah, a decent human being decent human being.
Well, that’s part of what they, you know, yeah, I mean, all of these facets are we’re in like, you know, lay people being asked. Let me throw another angle into this discussion that recently. Probably should get the show number, Neil. I didn’t get that last night, but the emotional intelligence show, right?
Oh, yeah. We spent a lot of time talking about emotional intelligence and how that operates. Is it fair to say that you might need a higher level of emotional intelligence in order to be on a higher level of empathetic skills? For sure. I would say so. Right? I mean this has a lot to do with emotional intelligence.
Yeah. Right? How so, I guess? How do you, how do you see that?[00:18:00]
We’d spend a whole time talking about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and It almost seems so obvious to me that I’m not quite sure how to explain like how it How it would be, I guess, like,
What’s a gnat? Okay, the YouTube fandom is worried about, like, what’s wrong with Victoria right now. She just stopped talking in mid sentence and is swatting a gnat. But I think it’s just that, like, in order to Like, I don’t know, I guess, in order to know, like, what empathy is and how to express it or show it or feel it, you would have to have a certain level of emotional intelligence.
It just seems so basic, I don’t know how to explain it. I love when I catch you flat footed. Because I’m a little flat footed as well, I’m not going to deny. John Savas, how does emotional intelligence and empathy kind of combine together or work together? Correlate. Correlate is a great word. Again. I think that emotional [00:19:00] intelligence and is, is you can have high intellectual intelligence and not have a very strong emotional intelligence.
And so therefore very poor empathy, very poor empathy. And I think that’s what you get the stereotypes in the movies and in, in, in books about the, the brilliant
scientist who doesn’t understand or the brilliant politician doesn’t understand what humanity is about or, or their own humanity. So I think, I think empathy is that, that special sauce basically that, well, it just, it’s our humanness, our humanity.
And the more empathetic you are, the more in a sense that you become aware of your own humanity and that we’re all in this together. experience. I love that, John, [00:20:00] honestly, because I think that you’re really on point there with the idea that, you know, yeah, look, you know, we, we have. A lot of challenges in dealing with our ourselves mentally and emotionally and part of what we do together to overcome those challenges is really connect and it gets to the essence of what makes us human and humans are relational creatures.
We are not isolative creatures. And so. We have built in skills. We have built in neurology. We have built in neurons, literally like mirroring neurons. That’s a whole thing. And it’s all built on how we are really are connecting with each other. And so, I would say it’s a core piece of being a human. But it’s one that I don’t think that we really have our fingers put on.
And certainly, if we don’t have our fingers put on, we can’t practice it and be purposeful about being empathetic. You know? I know this is a lot. I agree. No, I [00:21:00] agree, too. Now, and I’m wondering if there’s, that’s an area of some real research that, that we could do more in that area is to, is to say, how do we, how do we increase empathetic behavior?
How do we, in ourselves, but with others, in families, in schools, and in our society? Because I think one of the, the questions that we’re dealing with right now in our struggles is that we’re so bifurcated as a society. We’re so torn apart. Right. It’s brutal. It is brutal. On human relationships, especially, and thus, the very humanistic nature of us as a people.
And there’s a lot of despair going on. I’m thinking in terms of, in our own beautiful Gaston County, we have a very high suicide rate amongst middle aged men and, and teenagers and, why is that? [00:22:00] And I think it’s because people live at a a a cognitive dissonance basically. They’re seeing, you know, they’re having these feelings, their emotions and they don’t know how to express them.
They don’t know who they can trust and who they can rely on. They need somebody that’s empathetic that would be able to help bring them back. Empathetic or sympathetic? Empathetic. Empathetic. Oh, you said sympathetic right there, and you might be in my head. I may have, like, zipped that at you. Well, I thought I said empathetic, but if I said Yeah, but you said sympathetic, and what’s interesting is I think there’s another piece, like, I love what you’re
talking about, and it transitions nicely to, you know, Neil’s kind of point, before we turn the mics on, you know, he’s like, are you going to talk about the difference between empathy and sympathy?
Because people get confused about that. Yeah. Because they’re not the same thing. They’re not the difference, because we can have the great Rolling Stones song, Sympathy for the Devil. [00:23:00] We don’t say empathy for the devil. Oh, well, there you go there that really lays it out actually pretty well as I say that might drop on that.
Yeah, that is a very different. Perspective but let’s lay it out Victoria. Maybe you seem to be up on that How is that different particularly with what he just said like how empathy and sympathy? Well, like sympathy is just like feeling bad for someone at least how I see it Like oh, I feel like you lost a love when I feel bad for you.
I have sympathy for you like but Empathy is more like kind of how we said in the beginning like having that understanding and like You get the sharing of the feelings of like, okay, I get it. Like I actually know, you know, where you, what you could be feeling like, cause I’ve been there or if I haven’t been there, then I can at least get to some sort of understanding of like how difficult it [00:24:00] might be, what you might be feeling instead of just like, Oh, I feel bad for you.
Like, I’m sorry. Okay, so there’s an experiential aspect of empathy. Right, John. That’s what I was really getting at, I feel like. You know, I’m listening to you with a humanistic perspective. That you’re talking about empathizing with people and That’s what makes us human. And I’m thinking mirroring neurons and yeah, we need more research and stuff.
There’s a whole lot more interrelatedness maybe Neil to answer your original question, right? Like there’s with, with empathy, there was a whole lot of experiencing together and, and relating together and understanding together with people. With sympathy. Yeah, I see this as, as just you’re offering your compassion.
Like condolences or something. And that’s it. Yeah. There’s not, there’s not a lot of interaction with that. And I guess that’s the [00:25:00] definition, I mean, the types of empathy is cognitive empathy. And I, I would posit that maybe that’s more sympathy than compassion. That’s a good point. I like that. That’s I could see that.
I could, I could go with that because you really are cognitively offering, you know, some difference in somebody’s experience so that they very much. I’m
going down. I’m slouching. We’re laughing at John Neal has to fix the microphone every now and again. He kind of gets in his chair to sort of slowly.
It’s a very slouchable couch. It’s like the earth and seep. I feel the earth move under my feet. There you go, it’s moving. That’s the wrong type of song, though. The definition I looked up on my phone here, feel or express sympathy. Okay. That’s sympathize, right? To feel sorry for someone who is in a bad situation.
That’s what it means to sympathize. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, to [00:26:00] feel sympathy for you because you understand that person’s problems. I mean, it’s like, yeah, there’s so much more going on with empathy, right? Empathy. I’m sorry. Sorry. No, I think that that’s why it requires a certain level of emotional intelligence because almost anyone can have sympathy for someone.
Regardless of their emotional intelligence, but I do feel like kind of what we were hinting at and talking about before that you get your car stuck in the mud and somebody says, I’m sorry, that happened to you. That’s sympathy. Okay. And you may actually feel, yeah. Okay. But if you have empathy, you’re on there helping that person pull the, push their their car out of the mud.
Because they’ve been in a similar situation or they can understand the frustration of okay. I am with. We are together. We are. Yeah. You’re journeying with that person in their, their experience. And so when somebody, for example, [00:27:00] dies and there’s a family and let’s say the preacher comes over. Well, the preacher a 26 year old or 25 year old preacher, which I was at one time, it was really a long time ago.
It was very hard for me to empathize because I hadn’t had a lot of loss. Right. That’s that’s, that’s a big piece of it. But when a whole bunch of people started dying in my family, I started understanding. So it wasn’t just the nice words that I said. It was. I could actually authentically grieve with them.
Yeah. Yeah, honestly, this, I’ll make a bold statement. I mean, this is, this is why one of the, I think we have to be honest about what our ability is. Such as the one thing that I really feel like you can’t understand if you haven’t experienced it. And I know it’s going to be upsetting to a lot of people, but if you’re not a parent, it’s really hard to be able to empathize with that.[00:28:00]
You know, I would not want to meet with a therapist for myself unless they had that. Experience. Honestly, we’ve had, we’ve talked about it. I’ve talked about it because it’s, it’s, it’s just such a core thing in my life that I don’t believe you can really empathize with me, which is such a key part of talking to y
Now, I may be mistaken about that. That may not be a fair statement. You could probably pick me apart for that, but that is the way that I feel in the way I see it. And so somebody may feel that way. Okay. Which is why, in our therapy world, it is very okay to make those statements, and, and, and, if you have those concerns.
You know, but we work hard to be able to create empathy, as you say, John. So, I don’t know. We do, and we also do those things. Or create opportunities for that like through continuing education and things like that so we become more knowledgeable about it so that we can be a little bit More empathetic towards experiences that we maybe not have directly experienced in our life But maybe something [00:29:00] that our clients have experienced that we’ll be able to like relate to them on Yeah, or have that understanding just saying this is dangerous because you might feel like you’re the only person that has this experience And honestly, I pointed out one with being a parent or not being a parent.
There are very few things that you can’t Get to a place of empathy with right and and I think that people oftentimes feeling alone Feel like other people cannot understand them and i’m suggesting very much that they absolutely can’t right John, am I on dangerous ground? What are you thinking? I’m curious about your tap in your mind No, I don’t think you’re on dangerous ground at all.
Yeah. So. The whole parent thing. The whole parent thing, yeah. That’s it. Go ahead. Okay, we’ve talked about this as far as, like, race. A lot of things, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think that, like, Yeah, I don’t know where I was going with [00:30:00] that. I think you’re fine with saying that. Because I think people do have, whether it’s race, whether it’s parenthood, whether it’s other, like, life experiences, then I think, like, yeah, especially in therapy, or like, specifically, like, I can see how you might would be apprehensive about, like, your therapist having empathy towards You know, she’s a raising a child.
Yeah, or even anything like if I have a, you know, a black woman that comes into my office. Yes, we’re both women, but like my life experiences are probably quite different than hers. Maybe. Yeah. And like, I think there can be it. Even with that, you know, is this, is this therapist going to really be able to understand the things that I’ve gone through in my life or the things that I experience on a day to day basis?
And, and the thing that I want to really maybe highlight it and maybe we’ll move on is, you know, [00:31:00] There’s a lot of work that goes into being able to do that. I mean, all of the theories we talked about modalities for recently, John, you’re talking about a new one that we didn’t even talk about during that show.
You know, the, the experience, the trainings, the CEUs that you talked about, the ongoing research that we have, like we put a lot of effort. into being able to put ourselves in other people’s shoes. Even me as a man understanding, you know, women’s issues. I just had an involved conversation this afternoon.
It sort of broke my heart with a, you know, woman parts thing that somebody’s struggling with it, you know, and I was able to really be there with them. So there’s a lot that goes into this and you too. If you become purposeful, you can put effort into this. Again, it’s purposeful and intentionality. And it’s willing to allow yourself to go places.
That that you might have some, yeah, be uncomfortable. Yeah. Go outside your comfort level to [00:32:00] be with the person you’re to be with the person. Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s get into some factors. This is some good stuff, man. We should have, this is a longer conversation than I thought we might have. Yeah. Cause honestly, even as I’m talking about it, it’s kind of like, there’s a lot that goes into this whole idea that we live with constantly, right?
Yeah. So, I thought this was interesting insofar as factors. This is what caught me with that article. Again, I think I’m just going to quote it. You know, America is a country in deep pain. I thought, okay, well, that’s interesting. It caught, that’s what caught my eye. The coronavirus pandemic, racial injustice, economic insecurity, political polarization, misinformation, and general daily uncertainty dominate our lives to the point that many people are barely able to cope.
And I think that’s Ego centric for us to think that’s just in America because I see that The listeners all around the world are talking about and experiencing all sorts of despair and [00:33:00] distress As john, I think you were talking about we know science tells us anxiety Rates of dysfunction are high Depression is raging, suicide rates, not just among military or police personnel, among teenage girls, and you say middle aged boys.
I didn’t even know that. Right. Like, there’s, there’s a lot going on out there, and in that kind of a mental space, oh boy. How easy is it to be apathetic? The way I know that is, the way I know that is by the way, and it’s anecdotal and that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is generalizable, but there was that through first responders that I work with that just talk about, Oh, these guys, they’re this age, they’re in the forties and fifties and there’s going on, something’s going on and they’re, they have everything.
And yet they. Have nothing have nothing You didn’t hear my click my my catch [00:34:00] though my at the end there with the question is You know if we’re in these states of despair, how then difficult is it to be empathetic? Isn’t that
something when despair is up when anxiety is up when depression is up, you know loneliness and epidemic of loneliness how Does that affect as a group the group’s ability to be empathetic?
So that’s empathy can fatigue, huh? Is that what I’m there’s a phrase. Yeah, you just created a term. Yeah Well, yeah about compassion fatigue Well, I mean, yeah, if we have I mean and also like to add on top of that we’re very especially here in America We’re very like individualistic Type people. Yeah, we don’t really think of the whole group.
A lot of times. We just think of ourselves And self absorbed over here. Yeah part of the world. Yeah, and we’re very good at saying we’re self [00:35:00] Like that with all this other stuff that you mentioned on top of it, yeah, like if I have all this crap going on in my life, high anxiety, high depression, like all these things, then yeah, I may not be able to put as much, put forth as much energy and effort towards being empathetic towards other because I got my own crap to deal with.
Yeah. And like when I get home and then that’s the four that’s in the forefront of my brain Oh my gosh, when I get home, I gotta do this. I gotta do that when I get to work I gotta do this. I gotta do that and then i’m not thinking about like, oh the person that’s like How do I dial into this person? Yeah, or like this person that’s on the side of the road like I don’t even see them You know because that needs help with their car because i’m so like focused on like, okay Consumed yeah, what am I doing at my deck next destination?
While also, like, not wrecking my car on the way there. Also, [00:36:00] John, you had thoughts though? Well, yeah, I was, I was thinking that that there’s a risk with being empathetic. And, bar that, You, you mentioned that we hear these horror stories about you stop and help somebody and they’re going to, to assault you or run you.
Not alive you. Not alive you. Unalive you. And that, that could be a real issue. But the, the, the thing also is that if you are empathetic. And you are intentionally so, you might have to change your outlook, you might have to change your prejudices, you might have to stretch, grow out of your How dare you say I have to challenge my beliefs to be empathetic with somebody else.
Yeah. We’re independent, right Victoria? Yeah. I’m being sarcastic. And by the way, that’s been going on for forever in our country. Yeah. At least in my Yeah, no, I listen to [00:37:00] enough true crime podcasts to know that that’s true. Yeah, all right. Here’s a, here’s a darling of our conversation. I’m sure if you start thinking about social media and technology, we haven’t had a good impact conversation on social media and technology in a little while.
Kind of avoid it because it felt like it comes up a lot, but well, I bring it, I bring it podcast topic. We talk about, what’s that? I said, it almost comes up in every episode and I shut it down because I’m like, I don’t want, I’m afraid to, but that’s me. But how do you have a conversation about that?
Empathy, losing empathy, having challenges to empathy and not dig deep, hard into the realities of social media. That’s it. We have so much information that’s thrown at us and given to us and yet it’s exhausting and yet. That is an area that we seem to be having, it should make us, if one followed it logically, should make us more empathetic.
[00:38:00] Everybody’s our brother and sister, I’d like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. But we don’t, we do just the opposite. We polarize, we go into tribalism. What do you think? Yeah. Sorry. Keep talking. I did that. I did that on purpose. So. Well, my brother called me and he never calls me, so I’m texting him back real quick to make sure everything’s good.
So, so, but I think that’s something that, that, that we do. We’ve, is it, is it not more challenging that to be empathetic now and authentic and transparent in a, in a world in which we’re, swamped with information, and it’s hard to figure out, we, we seem to be drowning in it, and therefore we, we do just the opposite, we, we try to save ourselves.
True story, that I just heard last night there was a guy that I met he works with river [00:39:00] keepers. Hey, by the way, man, nice to meet you. Shout out to you. We’re going to be talking soon. I think I’d like to have him on the show. And he told me a story about his son. He went on some sort of trip. I don’t know.
It was a camping trip or some sort of event or something kind of going on. And you know, he went to this weekend. long deal or two weeks, maybe three weeks kind of deal. It was a big, big event for this kid’s life. And you know, they’re reestablishing, reconnecting, and they’re just having a conversation and tell us about your time, you know, how to go.
And his dad asked him, he said, so I’m curious, what, what’s the, what was the coolest thing or the funnest thing about, you know, this, this experience that you had, do you know what this little 18 year old said, he said, I didn’t have my phone the whole time. That is what he said. I’m telling you, Joan, I am getting very hopeful about the world being saved by Generation Z.
Well, I agree with you. I read an article. Gen Z or Gen Alpha? Gen whatever. Alpha. Alpha is the youngest one. Oh, dear God. [00:40:00] They’re
intentionally not using their phone. Right. Which is wonderful. Right. Which also as a, a parent of a young child makes me nervous, like how am I supposed to get in contact with my kid if he meets me?
Oh my God. Deal with it. Have one of those thera watches. No, deal with yourself. John, I’m down, no, no, I’m going a different direction with this one. No, you deal with yourself. You calm yourself down. You have positive thinking in your own head and you let this kid experience life so we’re not We call the landline.
So we’re not suffocating this kid. Oh, gas, boy, that, we just got a show talking. You know, I was talking to my mother who is, of a mature age. And she said she worried about us, but we would go up in the mountains and yeah, and, and mess around and, and all that. And she had to pray sometimes that we didn’t fall into a mine shaft or any, cause I’m from Southeastern Kentucky where there’s a lot of coal mining.
Oh yeah. But the area, but. But that was your West Virginian. You know that. So [00:41:00] but part of that is also trusting someone. Maybe that might be helpful is to be able to developing trust, developing trust and faith and have a knowing. Let’s say that that significant other that parent or or or partner trust you And it’s scary the Victoria.
I mean, we have gotten so attached to these tools, right? That has has fundamentally changed the way that we relate. And unfortunately, I feel like in a lot of ways being, you know, negative. So you might be fearful of how am I gonna track my kid or keep him safe for nowhere he’s at. Yeah, I mean, I’d not say that, but we’d figure it out.
You’ll figure it out, but it’s early on. I mean, the thing that I think I would say is that even early on, the first few years of life, you begin to realize, like, you’re not going to be able to prevent this kid’s scraped knee. [00:42:00] Therefore, you really end up connecting more, empathizing more, sharing life experiences together more, because you feel it more.
If I just sit there and look at my kid on a family app, you know, Life360 was one of the first ones, and I check on him, where he’s at, good. Check on him again, two hours later, good. Check on him again, maybe an hour later, because it’s the first time he’s been away for eight hours. Well, you kind of already know what’s going on.
So. Are you connected to him? Yeah. Or what happens in that scenario when you have had zero contact? For those eight hours they come home. Hey now tell
me about where you were. Tell me about what you did Same thing tell me about how things went Right, I if I text my husband throughout the day Every time something happens throughout my day and he tells me every time something happens throughout his day and text message Then yeah, when we get home and like we’re having dinner together or we’re you know, stuff like that TV, like [00:43:00] there is no, there is no tell me about your day.
Yeah. Like, Oh my gosh, guess what happened to me today? You know? And I get like, I didn’t think about it that way, but that’s brilliant. And that’s absolutely a fabric, a fundamental fabric of our life. So like, I usually, unless it’s like, I need something for my husband like right then and there like i’m going to the grocery store Hey, do we need anything kind of situation like information?
Okay. Yeah soon. Like then we don’t really like text and talk throughout the day Like he might send me a tiktok and I might send him a tiktok or something that I think he might would laugh at but other than that like we And I wouldn’t necessarily say, I think it’s half intentional, half just because we work obviously throughout the day, so we don’t necessarily have time.
But I do think part of it’s intentional, at least on, from my point, from my side, I don’t know about his, but from my side, because then we have more to talk about, like, at home. Right. Which is hilarious for us, because it’s not like we can go home and talk about our clients, but [00:44:00] it does, at least, you know, even if other things happen throughout my day, you know.
Right. And no, we don’t talk about our clients, that’s right. We try not, we definitely not, I mean, I can’t, we hold all those things in strong confidence. My wife says, well, how was your day? Yeah. And I just say, well, I saw a bunch of people. Yeah, I usually just talk about how many people I saw. So let’s say that it was exhausting.
Yeah. Exactly. How were you feeling? What did you go through? What did you have for lunch? What was your drive home like? But I get what you’re saying, it’s that, it’s that opportunity to, you know, Connect if I get together with my friends and all we do is sit around and like play on our phones Which I get sometimes that’s nice.
I don’t necessarily need to talk to you all the time but like it does you’re missing out on that connectedness of like shared experiences and Yeah, this technology thing is Prevalent in our lives. And I never really thought about it that way, but routinely texting somebody decreases your level of empathy [00:45:00] with each other.
I think that’s a given our conversation. That’s a true statement. I wouldn’t have thought before today. Yeah. Yeah. I would not have thought that before. It’s like an inverse. In other words, inverted. Yeah, it’s inverted. Yeah. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll go another further point with this insofar as I think a discussion point.
I have often maintained, I’m gonna, I’m upsetting our therapy people today, maybe for what I said before, but you know, I, I have a concern, a developing concern, about how, Medical field is getting stuck into a virtual reality realm that I don’t think is best practice. That’s my bold statement here. I feel like best practice, you know, we used to talk about best practice a lot.
What’s the best way to do therapy? What’s the best way to deliver a service? I hadn’t heard that term in about 10 years. Has it been 10 years? Yeah. We used to talk about that a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In grad school you heard [00:46:00] best practice. Yeah. Well, I believe best practice is face to face therapy. Mm hmm I mean, I do.
I hate that upset people. I know that we love working from home and a few people love my offering virtual, which I do, I have for a long time, actually way before COVID you many years, I would do some virtual stuff, but I feel like it’s a step down. So let’s be clear. Face to face is best practice.
There’s a step down to video conferencing. I used to think there was a big step down to doing phone sessions where I wouldn’t do it. I was opposed coronavirus. Taught me, you know, the pandemic taught me that phone sessions are very effective. I was wildly surprised by that. I will do just maybe part of that also was the fact that we were so stressed out with coronavirus that we were more willing to, well, yeah, and I, and I agree with experiment, but I think it’s always been effective.
I just didn’t know it. I’ll own that. I don’t disagree with you. [00:47:00] Yeah, and I can see where you’re relating that into also like the medical field of like, it can get kind of dicey if Like especially when it comes to like prescribing medicine and like all these things and you’re just going based off like a Conversation that we have over video.
I can see that you’re not like Looking at my body in person or touching the thing that I’m saying like, you know, it’s wrong with me or examining it Yeah, I mean you need to Physically examining, you know, my psychiatrist, we can only, we can, she’ll do virtual sessions, but she will not do two virtual sessions in a row.
If we do a virtual session That’s fine, but then our next session has to be in person because I got to pee in a cup. I love that. Well, there’s that too. They re,
you know that. And also, so that, that way, like, she can set eyes on me. She monitors you? People with, like, does she not know who she’s talking to?
What are you talking about, but [00:48:00] okay. By the way, I don’t, I don’t disagree with you at all. I agree with you a hundred percent. And one of which is that I had a doctor that was actually in person and I don’t know what the issue was But I think it was from her as opposed to me. She wouldn’t touch. She wouldn’t touch me when we did a physical examination Really?
No, I’m going like come on, you know You gotta look at my ears up my nose or stick out your tongue or something I do that and but she would be like five feet away, you know, and so, and, yeah, she let things slip. She didn’t, she didn’t catch everything. Yeah. Yeah. Golly. And you know this cause I know this body.
Yeah. My body. Yeah. And, and so oh wow. Yeah. We gotta get back to hugging people, guys. Touching. Like, it’s okay. With their consent. Huh? I said with their [00:49:00] consent. Well, obviously inappropriately, you know, but like it yeah I I don’t know. It’s just it’s it’s there’s a sterilization that’s gone on and it’s really affecting human relationships I’m aware of the time.
We got a roll a little bit guys Conversation and I thought Cause there’s cultural and social, social societal shifts as well. You know, individualization, self interests, you know, we have this America first thing that’s going on because we want to individuate ourselves. You know, people around the world are not wanting to be involved with their neighbors.
And, and I think there’s a lot of developments that are shifting also, you know, boy, similarly, I hate to do this, but news and media influence, you know, that’s a huge part of empathy as well. The bombardment of negative news and, and. Fear mongering and fear realities. Like, you know, the, it’s hard to be empathetic nowadays.
I do think it’s harder to be empathetic than it used to be crazy. [00:50:00] Right. Yeah. When in fact, when it says. If you give them enough information, you give them everything, then they’ll become more empathetic. It’s not true, people. It’s not true. Not at all. It’s just not an experiential based reality. Other factors, what else did I come up with?
You know, overexposure to negative stimuli decreased face to face interactions. You know, that’s a big factor. Increased polarization. That’s around the world, too, America. This is not an American only issue. No, just Great Britain just
recently had it. Yeah, it’s hard, hard. Yeah. We see it in Israel. I mean, it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s around the world.
It’s not just here. So there’s a lot of factors that are making it difficult. Let’s talk real quickly about mental health factors. And then I want to spend the rest of our time on how do we build this as a skill? Right. So I, you know, we don’t need to go down through all three of these, but have you thought about different people?
Victoria, maybe that come [00:51:00] in clinically to your office and how these things really affect their relationships. Cause we talk about a person’s relationships a lot in therapy, social support network, social system, you know, all these cool things. And they’re good things, good things, but you know, how does that, that they are dealing with clinically affect that, that you have in their lives?
Have you ever thought about that connected to diagnosis and Oh, like someone’s lack of empathy. Right, right, right. And connected. Well, yeah. I mean, like statistically speaking, like people with autism. It’s a biological deficit. Like sometimes depending on the severity. Autism like they just have this inability to have empathy and yes, sometimes as a therapist, I might pick up on that and then that could lead me to a autistic diagnosis.
That’s a big thing we [00:52:00] look for, isn’t it? Yeah, or like, you know, What, and so on and so forth. Yeah, you need, you need to also, you can have all the assessments in the world for autism, but you also have to have clinical observation, interaction. Because that’s the lack of interaction. Sociopaths
have lack of empathy, sometimes that lack of, like, affect. Do you ever work with a sociopath? I don’t believe I have. Yeah, I don’t think I have either. John, have you ever worked with a social worker? Oh yeah, yeah. I was a brick chaplain. Like, did you diagnose it or were they already diagnosed when they came to you?
Well, they were, they, they murdered somebody and threw them off the fantail of the enterprise and laughed about it. Really? The carrier. Yeah. So yeah, we talked about it, but it’s a fascinating thing. You know, this is something that is very rare. I think I can honestly say [00:53:00] to you, I’ve never worked with sociopathy and that’s and that’s because it is so rare.
These are folks that contrary to what you might see on true crime or misperceptions out there. These are folks that really do Don’t have congruent emotional experience to the situation. Don’t be confused. They have emotions,
but they’re just not congruent with this. Like laughing. That’s psychopathy. Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And, and, and that’s kicked up a notch with psychopathy and sociopathy and psychopathy. Right. Okay. So many fun words. I tell ya. Okay, but, but yeah, there are, there are more sociopaths than there are, than there are psychopaths, and that would make sense. Well, is psychopath an old term, John? I, I wonder about that being interchangeable.
I do think in the past people have expressed that there are differences between the two. I [00:54:00] can’t actually give a okay, well, we’re going on a bunny trail and, and, and, you know, but just, just an honorable mention to like, you know, these things that people really struggle with, you know, when you’re struggling with addiction.
It consumes your, your, basically your entire spirit and you’re not really dialed into what people around you are experiencing very much. So, so hypomania, bipolar, run of the mill depression. Understand that these things, when you’re in distress, become harder to really empathize. And that’s why you want https: otter.
ai
Or take care of daddy yourselves. Yeah. And you’ll be able to more aptly work with people and stuff. So, you know, self care is non negotiable for therapists, right? Like we have to facilitate ourselves. I hate those low energy days. I have to kind of make sure that I’m up for this, you know? Yeah. [00:55:00] So, so there’s a lot that you have to be aware of related to specific mental health.
I don’t want to short that so bad, but I’m just aware of the time. I think we’re moving on to the, Bigger part of it, which is like, how do we build it? How do you build this? This is a skill. This is something that has lots of pressures on. This is something that your internal experience of life inherently, probably with insecurities and anxieties and depression has pressures on.
So how do we build this? My favorite thing. And I see you listening on here. Active listening. Did I? Oh, okay. Active listening skills. We use these, they use these little nice little things that most of us have attached to our head. Tell me about it. Let’s get a handle on it. Oh. Tell me about it. What is active listening?
And, but yeah, I mean, I think by active listening, you, which basically means that you are, Listening to understand the person that you’re talking to not keyword is not listening to respond. You’re listening [00:56:00] t
So you’re not thinking ahead. Right. Okay, so Victoria’s going to stop talking here, listener, and I’m going to be able to say something in a moment.
This is going to be great. Okay. She’s going to stop. I’m waiting. Yeah, did you stop? Can I say something? Yeah, but but that’s what this is what people do normally the point that I’m making Victoria by interrupting you Yeah, yeah. No, like I get it. That’s the way we operate normal conversations are not empathetic That’s a statement I’ll make.
Normal conversations are just waiting for the other person to stop so that you could speak. That is not what we’re after here. And so, and we do a lot of this with couples therapy. But that whole, yeah, listening to understand what the person is actually saying or what they’re trying to express that they’re going through.
And I think that definitely, like, we’re, we’re, Saying is going to help with your empathy skills because it’s going to help you be able to actually hear what the person is saying and be that much closer to understanding, [00:57:00] okay, like this is what this is person is experiencing and I don’t necessarily need to have a response to that.
You can just listen. The next thing to think about is that we do this in therapy all, like all day long, all the time. It’s been mentioned putting someone, putting yourself in someone else’s shoes. Like, if you want to be a more empathetic person and you’re listening to this, you really need to stop and reflect and think about the person that you’re close to and what their experience is.
Put yourself in their shoes. That inherently grows. Thank you. Empathy. What about, John, the next one you think? What, what do you mean the next one? Compassionate. Does that build empathy? Oh, em, okay. Compassionate actions, yes it does because by doing that you, you share into what that person is undergoing.
So let’s say if, like Habitat for Humanity, let’s [00:58:00] give you an example. Love them. Good shout out. Love them, yeah. Good shout out. Well, you know. You’re actually building a house for or or a domicile for somebody or a family and you get to share in their experience and they get to actually model them model for themselves to a sense that they have to contribute to their own building.
And so it’s not given to them, everybody’s sharing and doing this together. And so the compassion by actions, actions, actions, develops compassion, which develops empathy. You’re together in it. Together. So what about mindfulness,
Victoria? Does that help build? Well, yeah, because mindfulness is all about being in the here and now, being in the present.
And when you’re in the here and now, in the present, you’re Again, with, with other people [00:59:00] sharing in the experiences having that understanding. And, which is going to be able to help increase your empathetic skills. And I guess I want to say, adding also self reflection. So being mindful about just yourself in the moment frees you up to be able to connect and share I learn?
What can I grow? How can I grow from this? Yeah. Humor, humor is great. I love that. Good. Yeah. Cause you, you, you can step back from yourself. Humor connects people. Doesn’t it? It connects people. It really does. Yeah. You had, you laugh in therapy with me. I’ll tell you, you don’t laugh at some point with any level of meetings.
Is there, is there something we’ve done wrong? Cause it’s a huge medicine, isn’t it? Sorry. No, no. I laugh. I you, I hear you laugh. I laugh. Oh, you hear me laugh? Yeah. We hear, we hear Victoria laugh. I hope you hear me laugh. I, yeah, you’re kind of a quiet laugher, John. Yeah, I definitely hear Chris laugh sometimes.
Oh, do you? Yeah. I carry my voice, Carrie. I, I want to go back too, [01:00:00] and that is just that. It can be I think empathy is something that’s shared, it can be taught, it can be caught. But I also do think there are some people that, that are preternaturally empathetic. For example children with Williams.
Sort of instinctual, you mean? Yeah, Williams Syndrome. I am familiar with that. It’s a chronological. They have an intellectual because you said developmental delays, they may be more empathetic. Mindfully. Okay. Okay. I did that. You’re right. Thank you. So, so I, I didn’t want to skip that. So, right. But you know, I think that, that everyone can learn.
At some level, a fundamental level, to have some empathy. You know what made me think about that, John? It was my next door neighbor who has Down syndrome. You know, go Jason, love you buddy. And he, he is such I mean, he’s, he’s, it’s, it’s hard to have conversations, per se, like, you know, with, with [01:01:00] the, the whole publishing.
Because he’s so empathetic? No, because he’s got downs pretty strong. Okay. But I’m telling you what, his empathy, you could just see him caring about you when you’re interacting with him. It’s really beautiful. It’s really beautiful because he, there’s just the simplicity of where he is at is he just wants to be
there with you and talk to you and when I get a Jason hug, it’s just so, it’s so genuine.
It’s, it’s wonderful, highly empathetic, but very emotional, emotionally delayed. Right? Right. Yeah. So what I’m, it’s just a perspective is, or from a different way of looking at it is, perhaps that is the natural empathy that we may have in us innately, but Yeah, but We put up all these barriers and all these walls that go up.
It’s funny, this isn’t the way the case, but what you just made me think, John, is like, yeah, we have innate ability automatically as humans to connect and to [01:02:00] be empathetic, and then we destroy them by putting up all these walls and different Barriers and stuff. So the skill sets come in like tearing down our own walls so we can return to being, we have to relearn, we have to relearn in a way.
Yeah. You know, we didn’t even mention trauma during this conversation, but you know, you have traumatic life experiences, man, it tears your ability to be empathetic down and you have to build that back up. So then lastly, I think that like another way to improve your empathy is obviously a topic we’ve hit on is reducing.
Ah, yes. You’re a screen time. A screen time reduction reality. Having those face to face. It makes a difference. In, in person, real life experiences. I think we squeezed a lot into this conversation. This is a good episode. Honestly man, I mean I didn’t realize prepping my brain for this that there would be so much to this topic.
I’m gonna be honest. You’re welcome. Yes ma’am. Your idea was the bomb. We’re going to go a mic drop on that. This was Victoria’s show. She killed it. She’s [01:03:00] on point. Love you, ma’am. Thank you for being here, sir. We’ll see you next week. See you. Bye y’all. Stay well. Take care.