In episode 285, “Willpower: It is a Challenge in Life,” we dive into the complexities of willpower and its impact on various aspects of our lives. We’ll explore what willpower truly is—an ability to control our actions, emotions, and urges—and discuss why it’s crucial for achieving long-term goals, forming healthy habits, and maintaining strong interpersonal relationships. From overcoming temptations and procrastination to understanding willpower’s limitations, we’ll also tackle the factors that weaken it, such as decision fatigue. Additionally, we’ll look at how the substance abuse field contributes to our understanding of willpower. Finally, we’ll provide practical tips for strengthening this essential skill, including mindfulness, goal-setting, and avoiding temptations.
Listen for the following takeaways from the show:
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What are some areas in your life where you struggle with willpower?
- How can I strengthen, or weaken my own willpower?
- What are limitations to willpower?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #285 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes. I’m your host, Chris Gazdik, on August the 22nd, 2024. Hanging out here with Mr. John Pope, almost September. Oh, that’s right. It’s pumpkin,
John-Nelson Pope: pumpkin spices.
Chris Gazdik: You said that before the mugs come on and I was very, now we’re both stuttering and I, you, you excited me because I haven’t thought about pumpkin spice yet.
Oh,
John-Nelson Pope: well, that’s
Chris Gazdik: what
John-Nelson Pope: all my wife lives for it.
Chris Gazdik: I am excited with your wife. Joy and I are going to have to have some pumpkin spice lattes every day for the first week of September. Alright, through a therapist’s eyes where you get insights directly from a panel of therapists. This week is only John and I.
Victoria is finishing up her summer fun in the mountains. Peace. This is where you get insight in your home or your car, but not to delivery of therapy services in any way. Know that this is what am I saying? Know that this is what? YouTube, lives, subscribe, [00:01:00] click, five stars. John gets upset if you don’t do five stars.
Gotta do five stars, exactly. We have the book coming out in December. Very excited about that. Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah. Marriage book, volume two, Through a Therapist’s Eyes. Re understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. Exactly. Yep. And it’s bigger than the first one, John.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, I could tell that.
Chris Gazdik: I must have a lot more to say.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s right. It’s even a, it’s even a larger frame in it. Yeah. It’s quite a bit larger than live.
Chris Gazdik: I don’t think that I’ve showed it yet. That is the picture of the book.
John-Nelson Pope: And I like the eye color.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s green. Yeah. So for envy, green for envy and marriage. That’s not
John-Nelson Pope: good.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That’s
Chris Gazdik: not good.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, that’s the, that’s cause of a lot of
Chris Gazdik: problems.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Green eyed envy. We should have just.
Chris Gazdik: We just should have made it a red eye. How about that?
John-Nelson Pope: I’m hung [00:02:00] over.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I’m stressed out and red eyed angry is what I’m thinking. Anyway, contact at through a therapist eyes.
com is an email to check out with us. We love to hear from you. We get good thoughts and we share them back and forth. Sometimes we put them on a show. So this is the human emotional experience, which we endeavor to fit together, figure out together. God, what’s wrong with me today? And you know, I’ve been waiting for two hours to do this show.
I had a really lazy afternoon and now I can’t talk right. What’s going on?
John-Nelson Pope: I
Chris Gazdik: don’t
John-Nelson Pope: know.
Chris Gazdik: You want to switch drinks? You can have my propel. I’ll take the coffee there.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, No, I need the coffee real bad. Yeah, you turned the air con off. And so I had to, and I was going like this. And I love, I love my clients.
When it’s hot for a therapist at the end of the day. Yeah. It’s rough, isn’t it? It is. I needed that stimulation. I need that caffeine. You should have seen his eyes
Chris Gazdik: went wide,
John-Nelson Pope: guys. I’m a java junkie.
Chris Gazdik: When I suggested we switch, his eyes went wider than I think I’ve ever seen. Here’s some three questions to ponder [00:03:00] while we talk today.
What are some areas in your life where you struggle with willpower? How can I strengthen or weaken my own willpower? And what are limitations to willpower? So, kind of upping my game in the three ponder questions a little bit, John.
John-Nelson Pope: Yes.
Chris Gazdik: Those are involved questions, aren’t they?
John-Nelson Pope: They definitely are. And I’m, I’m just I’m thinking the particularly the last the last two and as far as weakening, weakening my will, how do we weaken that?
Yeah. Yeah. Because that sounds like that’s almost a choice of volitional choice.
Chris Gazdik: What’s interesting that you say that, because I feel like there is a huge theme. Okay, let’s let’s do a confession. We did this before the mics were on and I made the statement that I really come at this whole topic from a substance abuse traditional therapy background.
That’s [00:04:00] kind of where my mind comes and I want to weave it into the show for sure today because you know how willpower is a big part of substance abuse treatment. But you come at it from a different angle. How do you come at? I come from
John-Nelson Pope: a theological Okay. Very cool. Or religious aspect or understanding.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s just where your brain flows.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s how I’m
Chris Gazdik: wired. And so we’re going to add and talk about this topic, John. I hope we can talk about this in a way where maybe you’re not. I’m not overwhelmed with the religious aspects and I’m not overwhelmed with the substance abuse aspect because willpower is a broader theme, isn’t it?
Exactly. Like, as a matter of fact, the definitions I’ll throw in now, we had other words, right? Like determination, strength of will, Strength of character, firmness of purpose, fix fix it. Fixity of purpose. What is that word?
John-Nelson Pope: Firmness
Chris Gazdik: of, oh, fixity of purpose. Fixity of purpose. Is that a word? Did [00:05:00] I come up with that?
I don’t know what I even said. Fixity. That’s a weird word.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I think it, it, well, you know, I hadn’t heard that, but I think I’m going to go with it. I think
Chris Gazdik: I created a word, brother. Huh. That’s a, it is a word. Okay. Neil says it’s a word. He’s on the mic.
Neil Robinson: It’s a word. The state of being unchanging or permanent.
So, but that’s
John-Nelson Pope: permanent. Firmness. Firmness. Firmness.
Chris Gazdik: I probably could have just said firmness of purpose. Resolution. Resolve. Resoluteness and purposefulness. Anyway, those are the other words. So there, there really are. I mean, this is about, you know, the whole theme of, you know, empowerment and having agency over your life and feeling in control, you know, these types of things as willpower, but from a substance abuse perspective, I’ll clamor in about how this has taken on in my mind, a
negative word, willpower, because it gets people in trouble and it does get weakened and there’s a, [00:06:00] Purposefulness about it.
Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: because I was thinking in in, so when you brought that up in terms of substance use, I’m going, well, that’s part of the issue with somebody that would, they would use the willpower. They’re going to make themselves stop drinking or using, which is a bad idea. It doesn’t work well.
No, because you do just the opposite. You, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: The whole nature of the illness. So that’s my angle. That’s what we’re talking about. You beat
John-Nelson Pope: the crap out of yourself.
Chris Gazdik: Horrible shame, horrible shame developed. Yeah. I’m sorry. I’m not used to Neil being around. You had the mic. Okay. You’re going to have to signal me or whatever.
Cause he, we put him on since Victoria wasn’t here and I thought he might be interested in this topic. So he’s got a mic, but I don’t know how to cue you in the man behind the curtain.
Neil Robinson: I’ll just speak up if I have to, it’s okay.
Chris Gazdik: Good. Good. Alright, John, what do you think about this topic, willpower? I guess we’ve kicked it around a little bit as far as our [00:07:00] angle on it.
Do you work with this in therapy much? Yes,
John-Nelson Pope: particularly with my substance use clients.
Chris Gazdik: Does it come up with out of the substance abuse center?
John-Nelson Pope: It
Chris Gazdik: does.
John-Nelson Pope: Does it? It does, but it also there’s, there’s a lot of guilt. With my clients, and they said, well, I tried to stop, and I, I, I failed, I slipped, I Okay, that’s true.
But, but I also do it with negative thinking sometimes when I have clients that well I need to stop thinking negatively and if I just will myself to do it I’ll and be positive, then I’ll change my attitude. Okay. And then I have another is like food. I was just gonna say that doesn’t come up
Chris Gazdik: with food.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, a lot. That’s one of the things I struggle with
Chris Gazdik: food and other behavioral Types of things with we’re trying to do goal setting and other [00:08:00] behavioral. Yeah Yeah, well I
John-Nelson Pope: have You have hair picking issues? Actually, I do. I have one person. No, I’m with your own head. As you can see with my head. Not an issue.
It’s not an issue. There’s none to pick. By the way, that’s called trichotillomania. Yes, I can’t pronounce that.
Chris Gazdik: You can’t say trichotillomania?
John-Nelson Pope: Trichotillomania. Oh, I did. You
Chris Gazdik: just
John-Nelson Pope: did. I just did, didn’t I? What do you mean you can’t say trichotillomania? Well, how much would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck woodchuck would?
I think, I think woodchucks chuck wood, to be honest with you, I’ve never really understood that. Now, the, the other is compulsive spending, or buying. Yep, well, like I said, yeah, behavior with
Chris Gazdik: sexual behavior, eating behavior is what people focus on a lot. Sexual behavior. You know, New Year’s resolutions and behavior changes and that sort of thing.
John-Nelson Pope: And again, is willpower not And that’s another subject New Year’s resolutions. Have we done that yet? I mean, eventually. Yeah, well, I could usually do holiday stuff, you know, and have
Chris Gazdik: fun with that by [00:09:00] then, but I don’t know. It’s, it’s interesting. Do you So do you advocate for the use of willpower and developing willpower or are you kind of like me?
I have a bend towards avoiding trying to
John-Nelson Pope: rely on willpower. That’s my bend. Yeah. I, I, because I don’t think willpower works necessarily. Oh, that’s a bold statement. Oh my goodness, I’m always going to get in trouble with you. Go further, please. No, he’s
Chris Gazdik: not in trouble. That’s great. I think
John-Nelson Pope: you do the intentionality and you say, I’m going to have willpower, I’m going to resist eating.
And for example, and binge eating. And the more you do it, the more you try to say, I’m going to use my willpower to stop. The more you do. And the more that you end up, um, caving into it.
Chris Gazdik: So it’s almost a negative feedback loop.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Interesting. Isn’t it? Negative feedback [00:10:00] loop. Yeah, I, that’s interesting.
So we are bending the same way and I guess to challenge both of us then can it not be a positively used tool? Can willpower not be positive? Why are we so negative? About willpower. About willpower.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, in terms of philosophy, you, you, you have the will to power or Which would be Nietzsche, for example.
That’s Okay. Okay. Or existential. You have to explain these things. I don’t know. Okay. Well, Nietzsche was he was a German very unhappy guy, but very brilliant in the latter part of the 19th century. And he talked about mentioned Ubermensch Man and Superman, for example. Okay. And about and about, and where you get in trouble with that is, is that to be a superior man, you had to, to
think certain ways and do and discipline [00:11:00] yourself and overcome obstacles.
And so you, you used your willpower. To attain goals. I don’t know. Nishi is, does he have a niche? Needs?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Well, he
John-Nelson Pope: said that which does not kill me, makes me stronger. Oh, is that the guy? That’s the guy.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, I know the phrase. Yeah. Didn’t know the guy. It’s used
John-Nelson Pope: in existentialism too. And there’s some truth to it.
Chris Gazdik: And you mentioned something else.
John-Nelson Pope: You mean Ubermensch? Ubermensch. Yes. Yeah. That’s Superman. Yeah. Oh, that’s the man in Superman. Okay. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Well, you know what? It’s interesting. Yeah. You go back to philosophers and, you know, theological thinkers. Now we call them, you know, content creators and thought leaders.
You know, this has been, I never thought about that is a. Thought leader, the same thing as a as a philosopher?
John-Nelson Pope: Nietzsche was anti religious and anti christian, [00:12:00] and so he said that the christians were were given, and, and were very weak because the contradiction is it’s in weakness that there’s strength in the, in the christian faith.
Chris Gazdik: Neil, he just blew off my cool thought. I’ll ask you to see how you’ll respond. Is this the same thing? Old time philosophers to new age thought leaders? Is that the same thing? Well, I think I was
John-Nelson Pope: answering yes, but
Chris Gazdik: I
Neil Robinson: mean, I, I think, I think yes, the biggest difference to me is like a lot of the thought leaders sometimes are, they’ve done something and so they have that cloud, but I feel like philosophers just always sit around and think.
So there’s like thought leaders are cooler. Yeah. Thought leaders actually think therefore I am right. Exactly. So I think that leader a little bit interest is interesting because there’s some stuff behind it. You know, the thought leaders are ones they’ve grown a business and then this is how they thought to get to that point or they’ve done something or they’re like, I don’t know.
I think there’s [00:13:00] more practice behind it because philosophers
Chris Gazdik: so what’s a Arachnoses, what’s the hell’s his name? What’s a famous philosopher? Aristotle Aristotle, so Aristotle didn’t do anything Neil.
Neil Robinson: I don’t know. Did he?
Chris Gazdik: Well, he yeah, he wrote about the natural world. You know, he did you think though? I think he was like thought leaders do stuff in the world and then they talk about it And today’s philosophers have done anything and it’s probably true plenty the elder Willpower is the ability to control one’s, one’s own actions, emotions, or urges.
So, I really feel like, you know, we’ve been on a little bit of a kick with something called emotional intelligence. And that is a, a theme that we’ve talked about to, to really get into. You know, geared into being well and, and building ourselves on Maslow’s needs and, you know, having a sense of yourself and being able to execute control over yourself with [00:14:00] actions and emotions.
I mean, that sounds like emotional intelligence to me. So if you’re of a higher level of EI, like we were talking about a few weeks ago, you probably have a decent sense of willpower. But there’s another definition of strong determination that allows one to do something difficult. So there’s a difficult component.
That
John-Nelson Pope: would be the Nietzsche
Chris Gazdik: thing. Is that the Nietzsche component? Okay. That’s part of his philosophical perspective. Right. That, that sets man apart and women from, you know, doing different things, which requires like this extra drive. So might
we think of willpower as being like an extra on top of what you do to be well or successful?
John-Nelson Pope: I don’t know. Right. Yeah, I think so.
Chris Gazdik: And then we, we, we, we looked at these, these other. You know, words to think about like agency and, you know, and, you know, in control and internal locus of control, like there, there are lots of themes around this idea, which do [00:15:00] you think, here’s a random question, which do you think people are most familiar with?
You know, do they know what agency is or do they know what empowerment is? I mean, empowerment nowadays,
John-Nelson Pope: agency is more in house for us, isn’t it? And
Chris Gazdik: it’s probably a clinical term. Yeah. Yeah. We, we talk about it, but I don’t know. But empowerment out there, like I have agency over myself today. It’s a wonderful day.
I think I
John-Nelson Pope: talked about see, I, and this is the thing is that I’m old enough to remember when empowerment really was a thing and a word, and it was from the. Late sixties, early seventies. And so we can talk about black power, for example, our women, women’s movement. Yeah. And so, right. So, but agency is kind of like weird word.
Weird word. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: So I think people are familiar with the concept of empowerment and, [00:16:00] and, you know, willpower is a big piece of that. So can it be limited? Is it limited? Do we have, I mean, we’ll talk about things that drain, you know, our willpower per se, because there are really significant drains that we want to avoid to this.
Oh yeah. Is it, can we think of it as unlimited willpower? And if we can’t, why not? That’s a weird, it’s a weird concept.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I think that life experiences, I mean, there, there’s, there’s sometimes being let’s say you’re born in poverty and there’s no education and there’s drugs in the household and it just seems like there’s so much going against you.
It’s, it’s trauma, trauma. It’s hard to even be able to develop. Yeah. Power to begin with, or to say that I have a sense [00:17:00] of myself that I could empower myself or be empowered to, to overcome those barriers.
Chris Gazdik: I have a confession. There is a statement that sometimes people will make. It has been made to me in professional circles.
So I. I’m not stepping on any toes, don’t want to point anybody out, but I feel like behind the scenes, therapists have a danger of thinking this way. And I’ve heard it from people kind of as well. The statement is, John, have you ever had anybody say to you, because I have had people say to me this, other therapists when we’re consulting or whatever, Oh yeah, Jane, she’s the one, I remember her, she doesn’t want to get well.
Yes.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. And I say no. You don’t like it either. I don’t like it either. Yeah. It’s always bothered me. It’s either giving up. Basically. Yeah. You’re, you’re not advocating. See, I’m getting.
Chris Gazdik: Got you on that one, didn’t I?
John-Nelson Pope: [00:18:00] Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Either the copy kicked in or John’s got some feelings on this one. You’re not advocating
John-Nelson Pope: for your, for your client.
You’re not believing in your client’s ability to get well.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I don’t like the statement and I, and I think it comes from sort of an edge with this where with the concept of willpower, you’re supposed to do what you’re supposed to do. Now I’ve given you things in therapy to do and you haven’t done them.
Therefore dangerous thinking is you don’t want to get well, well,
John-Nelson Pope: it’s a syllogism. I mean, it’s, it’s just incongruent, incongruent. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. And, and, and I, I, I feel like. If willpower is limited, which I will make the statement. I think we’ve agreed. It kind of is. We also alluded to the fact that there can be things that are draining.
And you just pointed out through eloquently saying, I mean, you may have a substance abuse family, you know, it may not have been, you know, may have been neglected, you [00:19:00] may, you know, not have had really great education or a plethora of things can be in the way. And the thing is, is, If that’s the case, then how can we expect people to have developed a strong sense or ability of willpower?
Now, there is accountability, but there’s also, there’s just a balance between, you know, being, having willpower and having accountability and doing the things that you need to do for yourself while recognizing sometimes people are unable to yet. Right. As they’re building and growing, we’ll build that ability.
But we got to be careful about shaming
John-Nelson Pope: people. I
Chris Gazdik: think
John-Nelson Pope: that’s a, that’s a big thing. You know, I was thinking whether you agree with them or not, JD Vance, for example, coming back from his background. He didn’t have much of a chance, but he also had people that believed in him. And gave him those opportunities to [00:20:00] excel, but he had to develop his willpower over a period of time, but he took that opportunity, but that doesn’t mean that given another situation, he would not have done it, in, in other words, celebrate it when it happens, but also know that it’s no judgment and no negative judgment when somebody isn’t able to do it.
Chris Gazdik: So for around the world, JD Vance is in the States. We’ve learned a lot about him recently because he is a running mate for Donald Trump. You know, we’re having this big election here, I guess. When is this election coming up? I have no idea. 75 days. It is coming soon. And he’s got a great story that he’s been able to share it being nominated as the vice president on the Republican side, you know, being from Southern Ohio substance abuse family.
He’s probably a lot of people. Yeah, it’s considered Appalachian, but I’m mad at him, John, because JD didn’t say anything about West Virginia when he was talking about [00:21:00] that in his speech, but I’ll just let that Well, he didn’t
say anything about Kentucky. Or Kentucky, which are the two true Appalachian spaces, right?
Are the true Appalachians. Tattfield and McCoy’s, you and I, right? Yeah, that’s exactly right. He didn’t even mention either of us. Rippey’s
John-Nelson Pope: shooting, taking, go across the river, the big tug river, and then Right? Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Right? So, but you’re saying he’s a good example of, that he became successful. But there are a lot of people in his situation that didn’t have the abilities.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I grew up with some some folks like that. And, and there is a lot of judging us about folks that don’t make it. But I, I think instead of complaining about this is that you celebrate those that are able to excel. And, and maybe you can develop more people to, to have more chances in their lives.
Chris Gazdik: I think there’s an example of this and Neil, I want to come to you actually, cause I want to tap your brain. Cause I, I think you have some thoughts about this and I’m really curious what they are, but to gather them together, I guess if you haven’t [00:22:00] already, and an example of this honestly is I forget her name.
I’m starting to get names of guests in the show from long ago. It’s terrible of me, but Neil, do you remember he was the only one here talking about homelessness? Yeah. Yeah. We had a homelessness professional before
Neil Robinson: me.
Chris Gazdik: No, I don’t think it was
Neil Robinson: I think it was I don’t think I don’t think I had I don’t think we talked to anyone about homelessness when I’ve been on it.
Chris Gazdik: It was in this office And so I do think you were here. That’s crazy. That’s weird. I could be wrong. But anyway, I really learned from her, guys, of the homeless population, of which I haven’t worked with a lot. There’s a lot of misperceptions about how people become homeless. And those misperceptions thus have misguided people.
Societal cures and look at it as a
John-Nelson Pope: moral failure.
Chris Gazdik: They really look at it as a moral failure, John. And the reality of this is about 30, if I’m remembering correctly, 25, 30, maybe 35 percent of folks are chronically homeless. [00:23:00] And those are the people that we visualize, we think about, you know, the, the military veterans, the, the severely disassociated mental health, patients, the, you know, these are, these are chronically troubled folks that do end up in chronic homelessness, but that’s a smaller percentage.
The 60 or 70 percent even are people that are intermittently homeless and they become a homeless. I learned from her did you get it? Yeah.
Neil Robinson: It’s and Ger, Ger chick
Chris Gazdik: and Gertrude. That’s right. She is awesome. One
Neil Robinson: 50.
Chris Gazdik: Episode 150. I am so sorry. And what am I doing? She, she’s a friend of the show for sure, too.
I was having a brain fart and anyway she taught us that basically what happens is in that moment, people get so overwhelmed that their emotional system doesn’t have the capacity with even one little new problem that comes to, well, it’s, [00:24:00] it’s just, everything’s
John-Nelson Pope: so overwhelming that yeah, like.
Chris Gazdik: If I went out of this apart this, this office, which has happened, and My car wouldn’t start or I left my keys in the office like I really did that one day You remember that right John had to come bail me out because I left the keys in the office and I
John-Nelson Pope: told you no, right?
Chris Gazdik: No, you did not tell me. No your wife said I will make him come That’s what that’s what happened. But I really was overwhelmed and tripped out A person that doesn’t have the abilities installed from emotional health or wellness to problem solve just lays down because they’re so, as you say, overwhelmed to the point that they become homeless because it’s sort of like fight, flight or freeze.
They are frozen,
John-Nelson Pope: frozen.
Chris Gazdik: Massively frozen. So this idea, Neil, that willpower is limited and people can be held accountable, but the challenge of, you know, [00:25:00] understanding limitations that they had in their life and opportunities in that they need help to gain that ability. I’m curious how you see all that.
Neil Robinson: The way that I see willpower is that we’ll. And one of the things I read at one point, willpower is just like a muscle that it’s something you always have to strive for and you have to improve or it’s either going to grow, it’s going to shrink. And one thing that I read at one point was if you have something you struggle with, you do it in the morning because by the end of the day, your willpower will be less.
So the idea of willpower being limited, I think it’s a hundred percent true, but that means that, but the there’s unlimited potential, how far you can grow it. It’s a discipline you have to have, but just like Just like Chris, you doing pushups versus squats, you struggle with pushups over squats and you have to work on it, right?
Chris Gazdik: There’s a lot on that. And the the guy hurt me this week. Yeah, I
John-Nelson Pope: know. Can you lift your, your hands over your head? I can lift my hands. [00:26:00] Okay.
Chris Gazdik: It’s like, pushups are hard.
Neil Robinson: But that goes back to the same thing. Everyone has willpower, but some people don’t have as much as other people. And you have to make the decision.
To work on it, but also I was saying, well, that’s why we’re talking about those that go through traumatic experiences. If you get in a car wreck and you really mess up your leg, doesn’t mean your legs not there and it can’t work. It’s going to work less. And it’s going to be harder for you to start using it.
Some people go through traumatic experiences and it really shoots their willpower down. They lost their job. They, their
Chris Gazdik: unemployment is horrible. It’s horrible. So,
Neil Robinson: so now you think about that, just like having a broken muscle or broken bone. You have to now start from a lower level. So it’s harder to get back to that willpower, but there are certain people that, you know, they ruptured their ACL three times and they’re back on the field, but there’s other people that, so it’s that same idea.
It’s just willpower or something. Everyone has different levels to begin with. You have to decide, are you going to grow it or [00:27:00] not? And it is limited, but you can then make it, you can, once again, it’s unlimited potential. And it will
Chris Gazdik: either grow or not.
Neil Robinson: Once again, if you, if you keep doing it, it’s going to grow.
You stop using it just like muscles or anything, you know. At my age, you know, I can’t go do the things I used to do five years ago, right? Because I haven’t done anything. So willpower, it’s up to you to decide if it’s going to grow or shrink with the idea, just like nature versus nurture. Is it hard for you or is it easy for you?
Some people have a natural stubbornness. Tenacity to get to the next levels. Other people like, Nope, I just can’t deal with it. And they have to work harder. So just like going to the gym, don’t get mad at that person who’s overweight because they can’t do it. Sometimes it’s just harder for them to get back to the gym or have that thing to go back over and over again.
And that’s how I see willpower.
Chris Gazdik: It’s interesting. Yeah. I love that. That’s, that’s absolutely on point and makes my brain work.
John-Nelson Pope: It hurts my brain. Does it hurt your brain? Oh, he did wonderfully. Yeah. And because I see that at the gym all the time. [00:28:00] Absolutely. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: I guess I haven’t really thought about, you know, I think of a lot of things in mental health on an overview that I call a tale of two tapes, you know, the biological side, genetics, exercise, nutrition, but you know, our bodies drive how we feel and then the social and emotional people heard me say a hundred times the primary life events, the primary life Relationships and the daily stress and the grind like you’re talking about this being a muscle with almost a different level where I wonder how much Nature has to play in that
nature nurture and if you haven’t had much of the nature Help nor the nurture help.
Where does that where does that leave you? I mean like neglected people in early ages are really really behind the eight ball on this You Oh, yeah, like neglected children. Definitely. They just don’t have a [00:29:00] chance.
John-Nelson Pope: Or let’s say children that are, are in a let’s say the, the, their, their siblings and they were born successively into a A substance using or abusing family and the woman is an alcoholic and they have fetal alcohol syndrome and they are taken out of the home, a very dysfunctional, neglectful home and then they’re placed in an adopted as a family group.
They’re still going to have a lot of problems, even if it’s the most loving, caring, loving Tremendously wholesome place. Yeah. There’s still gonna be some, some, Cause you started out with a
Chris Gazdik: deficit.
John-Nelson Pope: They start out behind, yeah two or three miles behind. Right. The starting line.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I, I, [00:30:00] I, I think, let me bring us back to full circle as a little segment.
All of these are reasons or developing the understanding of this to really avoid when you see someone struggling. It seems like they don’t want to be well, as John and I, Have reacted to that phrase, realize and understand, you don’t know what’s under the hood. Like you don’t know what they’ve been provided in life that either is a detriment to their willpower or that has augmented their willpower.
Because we all are, you know, susceptible to our surroundings with how we engage our environment, you know, what we’re taught, what we’re, Validated on what we’re supported with, what we’re encouraged by, whom we’re encouraged by. Those are all really important things to willpower. Fair statement?
John-Nelson Pope: I think that’s a fair statement.
Right. And I think that some of us have been very, very blessed. And I was blessed [00:31:00] with people that were very encouraging. Uh, I do know that in my own experience I had some struggles with my self image, my body image overeating, for example, and received a lot of negative feedback about that.
And so I said, I’m going to have the willpower to, to, to do that. to do this and you know, all I got was hungry, hungrier, right? Yeah. But it was people, but the good outweighed the negative, you know, the, and
Chris Gazdik: now I know you work out like awesomely. You’re my hero in that regard, to be honest with you. And so somehow you were able to change that progression or progressively adding pieces here and there, but it took, it took a
John-Nelson Pope: while.
It takes a while. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: it does. Which is maybe another really important point. As you want to go on a journey to improve your willpower and ability to control your emotions or your behavior. You know, that [00:32:00] is a journey that you will build little pieces at a time. It does not come all at once. That’s a curious thought.
Do you guys know of anybody who’s really just suddenly dramatically increased their willpower ability? I don’t I’m looking around, Neil’s puzzled look. I don’t
John-Nelson Pope: I don’t think I have. Well, you could see people have dramatic weight loss, but in six months you’re going to see them gain it back because something happens that they can only keep it up for so long.
It’s
Chris Gazdik: different than motivation.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Strong doses of motivation quickly through trauma or big life events. But discipline,
John-Nelson Pope: discipline, well, willpower doing things that are hard. It’s a lifelong process and you have to also give yourself some grace to allow for some slips. You got to fail, you got to fail and you got to start over again.
And so that’s encouragement. Neil,
Neil Robinson: I think willpower motivation are basically the same [00:33:00] thing. Do you, it’s two different words, bro. Yeah, I know they are, but they’re basically to me the same thing. They’re, they’re both fleeting. They’re both something you have to work at. You have to have that passion and it goes back to discipline as the backup.
Right now, what I would say when you look at those that actually have. Long term willpower. It’s something dramatic happens. And that reason becomes greater than whatever they’re fighting us. You know, the, you do have those people that I’ve seen people there was that one actor guy in varsity blues. He was like 400 pounds and he’s ripped like a mofo.
And he’s cause he finally realized I’m tired of being that fat guy and his willpower change or his motivation change. And he created stuff to the willpower, the desire to get to that goal. But that
John-Nelson Pope: process probably happened years before. As he, as he was starting, and then there was this point,
Neil Robinson: there was a tipping point.
Something, something went over that said his willpower, whatever the, where he was, that, that hatred or fear of being where he was, was greater [00:34:00] than the journey he went ahead. What he was looking at.
Chris Gazdik: This is interesting, Neil. Let’s stay here for a minute. Not really in debate, but maybe in a little bit of debate.
And I’m free balling this, honestly. I haven’t really thought about that. Like, willpower versus motivation, are they the same things? You say yes, I think I say no. John, what do you say? Willpower and motivation. Well, I’ll come back to you. I’ll come back to you because I like I I’m beginning to develop a belief I think in the moment that willpower like you said John is a a much longer and slower Develop now I would agree
John-Nelson Pope: with that.
I think motivation is something that is in the now in the now It’s more present, but you got to have motivation and willpower
Chris Gazdik: and combination combination So the tipping point what it seems like Neil, I would wonder is this person is really building, you know, stamina,
emotional stamina, the willpower [00:35:00] and you know, that motivation, you know, kicks in to put you over.
The hump, but if you don’t have that development in place, the ability to, to manage yourself to make, cause we remember we’re talking about managing your emotions. That takes a long time to figure out how to do
John-Nelson Pope: when I was in the Navy. Well, I keep saying back when I was in the Navy, but, and I do, okay. You were bad.
You were in the Navy. I was in bootcamp. We had a Marine gunnery sergeant and he ran our butts everywhere. And all that motivation was, okay, I need to be able to do this. I need to be able to run this, this six miles right now, right now, but willpower is I need to do this all the time because you would have, you would lose occasionally somebody difference that would not be able to, to, they couldn’t stay in the program.
They [00:36:00] just
Chris Gazdik: didn’t
John-Nelson Pope: have the didn’t have it. They’d them drop real power dropped out. So they had the motivation Initially, but yeah, that’s not gonna carry you long. It’ll
Chris Gazdik: only go so far. Yeah,
Neil Robinson: just like your willpower
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, we’ll only go so far and be drained. Yes He says with a right smile, John. So
Neil Robinson: I think it’s important.
Motivation is like your kickstart, right? That’s what you get that you say, I’m going to start doing this. That’s a five
John-Nelson Pope: hour. That’s the red bull,
Neil Robinson: right? That’s your, that’s your five hour energy, right? But then the idea is you then need to have enough motivation to start building your willpower. To t
So while I say they’re the same, the idea is that they both are something you have to work at. And that’s why they say motivation will get, you know, nowhere. It’s as John pointed out, it’s the discipline that motivation gets you to set the systems in place that then you then can be consistent going forward.
And willpower is the same way. That consistency will build your willpower up,
Chris Gazdik: but the systems [00:37:00] in place. I don’t know if you realize that as a biggest piece as it is, I feel like is a really big. piece. It’s huge. And those systems may or may not be in place. Therefore, your motivation might be high and you don’t have the systems.
in place. Listen, this is very important for our substance abuse recovering communities because this is where I come at with the topic where I’m very, very leery of willpower because there doesn’t tend to be because something has control alcohol or drugs in a person’s life. enough willpower in place to overcome that.
Though the systems that build willpower help you to maintain that and if you don’t have a system in willpower that helps support that and build that, you’re pretty much screwed. Sometimes your
Neil Robinson: willpower is to follow your system. You have enough [00:38:00] willpower to say, I’m having, I need to go reach out to my sponsor or I need to go to a meeting or I need to do this.
Like the willpower is knowing that I can’t handle this. Then you have to go back to your system, but the system helps take over where the willpower fall short. Correct.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. And
Neil Robinson: so that’s super important. And that’s, that’s the thing you have to understand when you do this. Going back to John’s thing about grace, you’re going to fail with your willpower.
If you don’t have a system, it’s just the way things are. You’re going to fail when your motivation waxes
Chris Gazdik: and wanes as well.
Neil Robinson: Exactly. So those things, like I said, because of the wax and wane, you have to put other stuff. And I think we’ll talk about it. Like those
systems are super important going. My, I have myself foreshadow for six and I have to be at the gym at 6 15.
What’d I do there? I don’t know. But if I had that system that I’m at the gym at six 15 or in John’s case at seven 30, every night on the, on the stair master, waiting for him to break one. Cause I swear every time I’m there, he’s like, he’s there for like an hour and a half
Chris Gazdik: broken them. You broke them in.
Yeah. I ate the past more of the [00:39:00] elliptical guy,
Neil Robinson: right? Discipline systems. John has it and he goes, if he didn’t have that, he’d probably would not be as mobile and agile as he is, right? It’s actually a really
Chris Gazdik: good example of last night. I really, really, really did not want to do my Wednesday workout. I mean, I went home and I laid down in bed and I really contemplated like I, I don’t want to do this.
And it’s the first Wednesday that I would have missed in about a year. Okay. And I went John.
John-Nelson Pope: Good.
Chris Gazdik: I went all right. There you go. I was very happy with myself, but it went because Actually, I had a reward in place for my sushi the after workout reward God helped me because I had a weak moment last night for sure.
So
John-Nelson Pope: why anybody would be motivated? By sushi is beyond me
Neil Robinson: That doesn’t motivate me my
John-Nelson Pope: daughter would would kill for it and I’m going
Chris Gazdik: it’s my Wednesday reward man It’s, it’s wonderful. Okay. Why do we care? We’ve alluded to this. So really, you know, this helps as, as you hear us talking about it, actually. I mean, we covered a lot [00:40:00] of the foreshadowing.
We’ve covered some of the things we wanted to get to because achieving long term goals, that’s a crucial part of what, you know, willpower and motivation and the combination will do habit formation. This is why willpower matters. What habits are you forming? Mental and physical health, you know. We talk about emotional resiliency a lot.
This is right in there, you know, with making sure that your health, I mean, you’re not going to have a lot of willpower if your health is really shot. It makes it hard as Neil was talking about,
John-Nelson Pope: right? Yeah. You know, you see sometimes because we’ve talked a lot about gyms. Okay. You see people that are really cut.
I mean, you know, they have the 12 pack and all of that. Most of them are, yeah, I do too. I could, I never could do that. And so if you have an unrealistic standard for yourself, you know, sometimes you don’t have the genetics for it, but you could still be very [00:41:00] disciplined. And so one of the dangers is to compare yourself to others in an unfavorable way.
Because that’ll, that’ll sap the willpower. That’ll sap the motivation. That’ll
Chris Gazdik: drain your willpower if you are playing social media and looking at how everybody else is doing these awesome things in the gym and in their health and meeting their goals and setting up their personal trainers and all the stuff, right?
John-Nelson Pope: Right.
Chris Gazdik: Ah! I just suddenly felt bad about myself. Although I have a physical trainer. Don’t laugh at me, John. No, no, don’t laugh on the inside. Some of
John-Nelson Pope: us need them. I do
Chris Gazdik: need him and he’s awesome for me. Yeah. He made me do pushups, John.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, I’m, I’m scared of them. So
Chris Gazdik: you never know. He’s going to have me do it.
He never has me doing the same thing. It makes me do planks. Also, Neil, I don’t like those. Oh
John-Nelson Pope: my goodness. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s on plank on a, on a little [00:42:00] board that moves. It’s like a half old one. I got to hold it. It’s freaking very unstable. All right. Other reasons why we care about willpower is interpersonal relationships, managing emotion, avoiding impulsive decisions, resolving conflicts, you know, agreements, you know, that turn into habits because we have expectations that get created.
You know, we have some overlaps that this internal ability to To manage your emotions. and have strength with controlling your behavior and willpower is huge with all of those things.
John-Nelson Pope: Marshmallow test. Remember that?
Chris Gazdik: I do. I love it. It’s a classic psychological study. John, break us down. No, no.
John-Nelson Pope: You know it better than I do.
I don’t,
Chris Gazdik: actually. It’s been a long time. Well, I
John-Nelson Pope: was looking in terms of, like, some kids are able to at an age of five o’clock. Well,
Chris Gazdik: back up. What was the marshmallow [00:43:00] test? You got it as well as I do.
John-Nelson Pope: No, no. Neil, you got it.
Neil Robinson: Wow. The marshmallow test is they set a young child, I don’t know what the ages were with the study, but they were five, five years old, and they put them at a table and they put a marshmallow in front of them.
And then what they do is they say, okay, we’re going to leave the room. If you don’t eat the marshmallow, When we get back, we’ll give you two or something along those lines. So basically the idea is if you don’t touch it, you’ll get something as a reward. So they left the room. I don’t know how long the study was, like 15 minutes.
I don’t know what the math was, but the idea was some kids made it. Some kids did it. Some ate it immediately. Some did not. So what they did is that they followed these people 20 years down the road or whatever it was. And basically they. You know, they, they found out that those that actually waited would do later.
They would do better in careers or jobs, or they would get accomplished certain goals. Like, [00:44:00] so there was this commonality that even as a five year old who had the willpower at that age, I
Chris Gazdik: didn’t know they went back 20 years later. I think
Neil Robinson: they went later and actually, and they actually came back and said, here’s, Here’s what happened with the kids as far as the results of I’m not mistaken.
So it’s a full
Chris Gazdik: longitudinal
John-Nelson Pope: Right, I did not did you realize I totally didn’t I didn’t know it’s that long but I’m I’ll
Neil Robinson: find more details really fast But yeah I’m pretty sure that they looked at and there there were some correlating information like those that waited versus didn’t and What they accomplished later in life.
Well, go
Chris Gazdik: ahead and look that up because I’m really, really, really curious about that. And, and I’ll follow up with you and say, Yeah, we want to do a segment on factors that really affect your levels of willpower. And understand that external factors do influence your internal experience and ability with willpower.
We’ve said it’s limited and it can be drained. And this is actually one of them.
John-Nelson Pope: And maybe that’s something that we can nurture in people at an [00:45:00] early age.
Chris Gazdik: It would be interesting to do the marshmallow test with children and then put them through like a 12 week program to, you know, to build some skills, some awareness of self, to purposely try to build willpower and then do
the test again and then pull it into the 20 year later and see like, how does this really progress?
It’s fascinating.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Right.
John-Nelson Pope: I think that now that is to me an authentic experiment and I think that would provide a lot of rich data. I wonder why that hasn’t been done for real. If it hasn’t.
Chris Gazdik: I don’t know. But, because we do know that putting yourself in a spot of temptation drains your willpower.
Now think about that. If you’re trying to change your behavior with we already did food, so I don’t want to be weak and do food again. Let’s say pornography. Okay. And, and, and you’re really trying to [00:46:00] avoid the compulsions. If you place yourself in temptation, Every evening at eight o’clock, log on and then shoot like,
John-Nelson Pope: but that’s part of a recovery that you don’t go back to, to your hometown where there’s the,
Chris Gazdik: I was looking at that too, then you don’t go to a bar when you’re in recovery from it is not cheers and people will sit there and say like, well, I want to test myself and we’ve, we’ve Substance we jump on that, right?
Like, no, that’s a bad idea. Not
John-Nelson Pope: to temptation, but deliver us from evil. It is a
Chris Gazdik: bad idea. Yeah. Cause if you put yourself there, you know, and same thing for instant gratification, you’re, you’re giving yourself a, a, a challenge there and that’s purposeful and draining. So you got something new?
Neil Robinson: So the original studies were done in 1970 to 72.
They actually did three different experiments and then they did a follow up in 88 and 90. So the, so they actually did eight, 18. Eighteen years difference with the same group. [00:47:00] Yeah, they did a follow up
John-Nelson Pope: generation, you know Yeah.
Neil Robinson: Yep. So, so they basically did it and then 18 years later they then followed up to say what happened with, you know, what happened with those kids or how things Very cool.
Yeah. So it actually did, I thought there was follow up on, but then you guys, like, I don’t remember that. I’m like, now I’m questioning everything about my life. No,
Chris Gazdik: I, I failed. You are on point as, as often the case,
John-Nelson Pope: and I’m so glad you did that because I just knew enough to remember it. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: I was the same.
I was in the same spot. I, I was interested in this. I was doing the show prep and looking at it, and procrastination came up as a factor affecting willpower. And I don’t like that. I don’t think I agree. Mm-Hmm. , you know, Neil, you know, we did the show on procrastination. He laughs, you know, you can’t see him on YouTube anyway, but you know, you were really feeling like this was right in line with willpower and internal.
You know, accountability and motivation and those types of things. And I was kind of [00:48:00] realizing that maybe similar to willpower. Interesting. Again, spit ball in that. Okay. I got like five thoughts in my head right now about this and I can’t keep them all straight and say them all quickly enough. We really found willpower as being a result of poor emotion management, willpower with poor emotion management can be drained so that it isn’t.
A characteristic of a person. And I really reframed doing that show about procrastination. And I’m realizing right now that this is the same thing as willpower. Why you and I get really frustrated with that statement that’s made about people. This is not a characteristic. This is, I think, Neil, as you have to know.
Currently said a skill or an ability that you have to exercise because it will always grow or weaken So I don’t like procrastination being a factor [00:49:00] affecting willpower. I actually think it’s the same as willpower that you have to build What what do you think
Neil Robinson: procrastination is is a is a side effect of having poor willpower?
Honestly, it’s the procrastination doesn’t, doesn’t play into willpower is if you have poor willpower, you’re going to be, you’re going to procrastinate more. You’re putting things off. You’re, you’re not doing the things you need to. It’s it to me, a procrastination is a, is a side effect or symptom of willpower, poor willpower in certain areas.
Do
John-Nelson Pope: you don’t think it’s also an aspect of anxiety in terms of like, Oh, of course it is. Yeah. Anxiety
Chris Gazdik: affects it, which is, we’re saying the same thing in a different angle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because willpower is controlling your emotions, managing your, your, your internal experience. You know, all of those things, which you have to work on a locus of control, right?
What’s that new
Neil Robinson: news? It’s I forgot to go back to recording. I don’t know. Did I say
John-Nelson Pope: you were brilliant? You are marvelous.
Chris Gazdik: We don’t know what you said that got over his talk to there, but it was brilliant to [00:50:00] say the least. All right, I’ll move on. Because of time anyway, decision fatigue is an interesting concept though.
In addition to temptation and procrastination, maybe gratification, you know, the, the fact that if you put yourself, okay, when you’re in a high stress job position and you have a lot of pressure with a lot of decisions to make, how is the end of your day going to be related to your willpower compared to somebody who’s actually in a cushy, kind of relaxed, more slow paced, you know, thoughtful position?
I would say that person’s going to have more willpower at the end of the day than somebody who’s really crunching out hard decisions all day long.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, you know, I was just thinking about world war two with the the the bombers, the bomber crews, they had like 25 flights that they had read an amazing
Chris Gazdik: book on this guy’s go ahead.
I’m curious.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, they they would crack after several flights a lot of times if they didn’t get shot [00:51:00] down and captured, and it’s because they, they had to make so many decisions all the time. Quickly. Quickly. They burnt out. It was life or
Chris Gazdik: death also. Life or death. We lost a lot of airmen. Yeah. In those, in those.
And so
John-Nelson Pope: the PTSD amongst that, that cohort was just unbelievable that having to deal with this and problems with substance or alcoholism, for example, or even behaviors acting out in doing things that would be, they get in, get in trouble with the military police or, and because they had Send them to the brig.
Send them to the brig, but. They were, these, these folks were just living on the line all the time.
Chris Gazdik: And is honestly, again, it’s an excellent example. Are we supposed to blame them? And it was mostly men, not women at that time. So. I say those, those airmen, we can’t blame them [00:52:00] for being in that situation because you’re right.
It is a very stressful, tense situation and you have to do it again over and over and you had to do 20 missions to get your tour done. And only about 30 percent of the people making up numbers, but that’s fairly accurate were able to do that. That’s a lot of people. People dying. And so your agency of your own self goes down because your decision fatigue is
John-Nelson Pope: loud.
And if somebody dies and you somehow that you knew or felt you would end up blaming yourself oftentimes. Well, why didn’t I do this? Or how come I didn’t how come I didn’t go on this mission? My friend took my mission for me. And died.
Chris Gazdik: Another example of this is like, you know, dude. We have American presidents and your leaders around the world.
I mean, when they do a term or, you know, they’re in those positions, I mean, they age a lot, right? I mean, I’m really, really glad I’ll make a bold statement that Biden bailed out of the American presidential [00:53:00] race because I mean, it was pretty widely seen and understood that he aged rapidly now. I don’t think he’s seen Nile terribly right now.
I’ll make that bold statement with a little bit of professional clinical ability to assess that. at the same time, four more years would have not that would have come on. Right? Yeah. He’d been worn out. And it’s because of this decision fatigue, this, this, this issue with, with external stress draining and draining and
John-Nelson Pope: draining.
You could have seen that with Jimmy Carter. And he was much similar, very similar. He aged quite a bit in, in his one term, in his one term. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, it’s it’s tough to be in those tough positions and these are the effects. Okay. So how do we strengthen this? Let’s switch gears man. Golly. Is it already that time?
How do we strengthen this? What do we do to increase our ability with willpower? Here’s a here’s a quick list You know set clear [00:54:00] goals and make them achievable practice self awareness Yeah, delay gratification, build good habits, but gradually build and build self esteem, you know, mindfulness, meditation, avoid the drains on willpower, such as prioritize your sleep.
Well, that’s one that we had to make an honorable mention pause on. It’s like sleep and willpower. How much do they combine? Oh,
John-Nelson Pope: excellent. Right. If I don’t
Chris Gazdik: sleep well, what did they say? They
John-Nelson Pope: use halt, right? Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Yes. And that’s when you become most susceptible to a slip or a relapse.
And
Chris Gazdik: the idea is from AA, they say if you have any one of those four, stop, halt, and get that taken care of. If you have two, you’re like in super danger of relapse, right?
Neil Robinson:
Chris Gazdik: Halt. Hungry, angry, lonely, and tired. Yeah, that’s that’s all
Neil Robinson: your wife when she’s hungry. She gets hungry, then she gets angry, then she’s lonely because I leave her and then she [00:55:00] gets tired because she hasn’t been fed.
So she needs
Chris Gazdik: you’re
John-Nelson Pope: screwed brother. I’m sorry. So no, she’s well aware. Snickers commercial there. Exactly. It’s holiday. No regerts. You need a holiday and a
Chris Gazdik: sticker sticker. All right. So we’ve, we’ve talked about these things for sure, but you know, I think those are, yeah. Good quick review because you you you really begin to see I think through our conversation here that willpower it really is something There’s some themes right that gets built that can be drained that you can’t blame people for that You have to give yourself grace for like and these are some of the ways that you do it, which is really Emotional intelligence and good mental health, you know, if you’re in a therapy experience for a year I hope that your willpower as well as other things things that he came to therapy have improved.
John-Nelson Pope: You know, that’s interesting because it is a discipline to come into therapy in a sense. Yeah. And of course, I think insurance companies make it kind of difficult too. Yeah, yeah. But we, we [00:56:00] won’t go there, but let’s say that, well, I, I started feeling better. Now I don’t have to go to therapy. Yep. So That happens.
Wait a second. It happens. And then you see them six months later or a year later. Right? Yeah. We have a lot of repeat. Repeat business. Wouldn’t it be nice that if people would hang in there, even when there’s, they plateau, especially when they plateau and you feel like you only see a certain level of improvement that they could continue on and break through that ceiling.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. And you know what’s interesting as well, John, I’m thinking about as you say that, right? Absolutely. You know, we have a very low average therapy relationship length. It used to be three. I really would like another number. It’s more readily researched. I haven’t come across that but we’ve talked about on a show I don’t think you know either but the average length of a therapy relationship is three sessions or something like that You
know, some of that is because you get a lot of instant relief, but what you haven’t [00:57:00] built in is the regular Regimen the discipline discipline.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And the willpower.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: To continue progressing beyond that, which you need
John-Nelson Pope: to challenge. You need to be able to do it step by step. You might even say, okay, well, I was feeling so good this week and I don’t
Chris Gazdik: need to
John-Nelson Pope: go anymore. No.
Chris Gazdik: The fact is, you’ll feel good after you exercise, but you need to exercise multiple times regularly and with, with
John-Nelson Pope: routine.
Right. Right. So this is a discipline just like any, any like exercise. This is emotional exercise. It’s intellectual exercise. It’s a spiritual exercise. Being able to do therapy.
Chris Gazdik: It’s interesting. I love the statement. I was thinking I was going to push back, but I’m like, I can’t because I think I agree, but I hadn’t thought about it that way.
They give it more of, I would have previously thought of it more as an emotional process, but you’re putting in [00:58:00] added pieces there that I think I agree with, but we don’t have time to go into it. Well, I’m
John-Nelson Pope: going back to my thesis. Yeah. Really? That was your thesis? Well, part of it was spirituality and counseling.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, very cool. Yeah. I’d like to hear more about that. All right, let’s finish up here, though, with other factors that build Your willpower and we talked about temptations again. So obviously avoid them like look Honestly, if
you’re trying to change your behavior with food, why would you have cookies in your house?
You know It doesn’t make sense to have chocolate chip ice cream and cookies Sitting in your house when you’re coming home from a hard day’s work where you’ve made heavy decisions and you’re tired And expect your willpower to take over with that like that’s just not possible Smart, right? Right. So avoid temptations, set yourself up for success.
That’s that’s huge. If then thought process to plan and to be prepared for [00:59:00] situations that you’re going to find yourself in as best as possible. Okay. Listen, standard around holiday time, substance abuse counselors have a conversation with their clients about holiday parties, holiday events, and all of the stress of the celebrations for people, especially that are new, but people that are well into recovery as well.
You know those conversations, right? What do we tell them?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, we, well, what do you tell? I tell them to avoid those, those things, or if they have a backup plan, a backup plan, yeah. Have
Chris Gazdik: a soda or something to drink in your hand at all times if you have to go if you have to go It is okay, particularly in early recovery to not go right, right Why do we go through these things because recovering addicts are struggling to remain sober and to be in a party?
We’re all this alcohol around you in early recovery Especially is really, really difficult. Now, addicts can live a life and they can go [01:00:00] to your, you know, drunk party and Halloween, whatever. And I mean, they, they will maintain themselves because you learn how to manage that. And you’re going to live out there.
They know how to do it. And they have their sponsor. They have their, they have tools and the tools and the tool bag, but particularly in early recovery and in holidays, people get tripped up. So we want to be prepared halt. You mentioned that it’s being prepared, monitored, make sure you don’t have hunger.
But you could apply
John-Nelson Pope: that if you’re, if you are, tend to be an anxious person, let’s say you have a high anxiety, which is a term we haven’t used for a long time, but there was a Mel Brooks movie called High Anxiety. You haven’t used that
term. You’re right. But, but some people have such great anxiety. Well, they, they’re not able to speak in public and all of that.
Well, you develop, you help them develop a tool kit. And so I visualize, I have my clients visualize that [01:01:00] they’re literally pulling out a tool that would reduce visually, visually, visualize it. Imagine seeing I had my clients tend to do very well with that visualization. Love it. And they are, they don’t have the panic attacks.
They don’t have the, the, they still have some anxiety. You’re never going to get rid of that, but managing, managing it. They’re more than victors in that.
Chris Gazdik: It’s awesome to see people that are growing and able to develop that ability to do that, isn’t it? It’s, it’s a special thing that we do. Let me, let me pop a question at you to see answer quickly.
Don’t think about this, Neil, you too, which is more effective? Group therapy or individual therapy? Go Neil, don’t think,
Neil Robinson: I’m leaning towards group.
Chris Gazdik: All right. No, don’t think Neil or I mean John. Well, I think, yeah, that’s gonna be much more difficult for you and I isn’t, no, no. ,
John-Nelson Pope: I, no. [01:02:00] My own experience with group therapy.
Yeah. Okay. More effective for certain things.
Chris Gazdik: Powerful. Right? Powerful. The reason why I did us that way is because yeah, when you are looking at having accountability, you, you know, we’ve heard of an accountability partner. We have sponsorship in AA. We have workout buddies. We have running groups. We have people in churches that support you in small groups for religious beliefs.
We have political packs, public you know, groups of people that do when the whole thing is, is here. You will be be more successful in willpower venues. When you have things like our mastermind group, Neil, you know, we have people that support us, that we’re in a functioning group together. Iron sharpens iron.
It’s huge. Don’t do this church
John-Nelson Pope: alone, good or synagogue or, or a mosque you go and you’re with people and you get that support, right? So it is [01:03:00] way
Chris Gazdik: easier to have willpower. In groups that are like minded and with a common cause. I’ll make that statement too.
Neil Robinson: I’ll say that those groups and those support help you make it through as you build your willpower, because you’re not going to have it early on.
And those are your systems and your crutches. to help you get there. Your spotter at the gym, there are those that until you can build up that willpower, you’re having something, you’re, you’re with like minded people. They’re people that can relate to you. They’re, they’re going through the same things you’re going through.
And so it’s going to allow you to say, I can do this. And then that, as you say, every time you say, I can do this, or I’ve done this, your willpower is going to slowly start growing and growing because you’re getting self esteem. You’re finding things are working and then systems come in place. So as your willpower fades at the end of the day, because as we know, You get willpower fatigue as you make more decisions.
You get tired, you’re going to have those systems and help you make it through it. So I would say those systems help you until you have the [01:04:00] willpower to do it on your own,
Chris Gazdik: kind of like an airplane, you know, the old Wilbur plane here in North Carolina at the beaches, you know, you need a little bit of.
boost. They probably had some wind from the ocean behind them that helped support them until they were able to be in in flight. So I’m just using a little bit of the wind
John-Nelson Pope: beneath my wing.
Chris Gazdik: We have a song like that, right? Oh, yeah. Okay,
Neil Robinson: Chris, pick him up. Let me see you pick John up. No,
Chris Gazdik: I need some group effort there.
Maybe I’ve
John-Nelson Pope: got a question. Then Why do we not do more groups here?
Chris Gazdik: I know, right? I’ve always done groups, John. I haven’t done a group in quite a little while. It’s just an organizational thing for me. I used to do them with
John-Nelson Pope: the PTSD
Chris Gazdik: groups for VA. I think yeah, it’s something we should talk about. Yeah.
Because
Neil Robinson: do you have room for a group? You don’t only have a room that can house more than like four people.
Chris Gazdik: It’s the next door thing that we have here. You really got to say that if we’re going around the world, [01:05:00] John. I mean, we can have, you know, six people in here, seven people in here, you know, that’s another one that maybe isn’t used.
That would be a cramp. Use the lobby, you know, or,
John-Nelson Pope: That other,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, there’s, there’s just, there’s different options or shoot, we should just rent a room somewhere. But yeah, it’s something we should look for because. . That’s something that we haven’t had around here for a little while. Mm-Hmm. that I’ve always done, but haven’t done for a while.
Good observation. All right. We gotta get outta here. We’re running a little over. I didn’t expect that with this topic, but it’s, this has been a fun topic ’cause it has, it has. You know, it’s something that we, I I, I’ve formulated some different thoughts through this, this little chat, to be honest with you, man.
John-Nelson Pope: So you need both. You need motivation. Mm-Hmm. . And you also need willpower. Mm-Hmm. . And so. The motivation is good for the right now, here and now. But the willpower is something that you build over a long period of time. And it’s sustaining. And you
Neil Robinson: have to have a system in place.
John-Nelson Pope: System in place. And give yourself some grace.
And so you have the gears that go up and you are able to Exactly.
Chris Gazdik: And [01:06:00] give yourself some grace while you’re building this because you will fall and you will fail.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. And accountability so that if you plateau, you don’t give up, you continue on. You have the You have the
Chris Gazdik: I think we had a little bit of a group consensus and a group conclusion.
I hope that you enjoyed that. Use your willpower, build your willpower, know that it can be drained and protected. Take care. Stay well. We’ll see you guys next week. Bye.