In this episode, we dive into the transformative world of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and explore its impact on addiction recovery. We start with a brief history of AA, its foundational principles, and the structure of its iconic 12-step program. Through personal reflections and thought-provoking questions, we examine group-based versus individual recovery approaches, the importance of community support, and the role of spirituality in AA. We also discuss common challenges and criticisms, including debates around abstinence-only recovery and alternatives like SMART Recovery. Whether you’re curious about how AA complements therapy or seeking practical tips for getting started, this episode offers insights and resources to better understand the program’s lasting impact on sobriety.
Tune in to see a Case for Alcoholics Anonymous Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What is my perception of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), and how has it shaped my views on recovery?
- Do I know anyone who has been involved in AA, and what has been their experience with the program? What are my thoughts on group-based versus individual approaches to addiction recovery?
- What are my thoughts on group-based versus individual approaches to addiction recovery?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/addiction
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #295 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes. I am Chris Gazdik, your host, hanging out here with John the Pope. How are you?
John-Nelson Pope: Pace bonum. Pace bonum. Right. What is that? Peace. Good peace. Potty? Peace and good. Did he just say potty? Yeah. Pache. Pache, not potty. Alright, anyway. Pache. Pache. Pache. Alright, we’re also
Chris Gazdik: hanging out with Victoria Pendergrass.
She ain’t going to give us anything like that, right?
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh,
Chris Gazdik: well, peace and goodwill. So this is January, October. What month is this November, November, but I’m struggling to look at the calendar on November 7th. Thank you. Because
Victoria Pendergrass: guess what? What? Our Christmas tree is going to be on by next week.
Chris Gazdik: Oh dear. Oh no.
You want to one
Victoria Pendergrass: day y’all are going to walk in the office and it’s going to be decorated for, whoa,
Chris Gazdik: in the office here.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yes.
Chris Gazdik: [00:01:00] Not in a week. Okay. I am pulling a complete veto there. We need, we need turkey. Yeah. Turkey or green or yet orange. Yeah, the turkey
Victoria Pendergrass: can go beside the Christmas tree. We are
Chris Gazdik: not going to have a Christmas tree up in the next week in this office.
There is no way because that’s crazy talk.
Victoria Pendergrass: Can we just
Chris Gazdik: get through Thanksgiving?
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay, we can still, nobody’s saying that you can’t celebrate Thanksgiving.
Chris Gazdik: Okay.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. Let me see. Let me tell you this. Thanksgiving is a day. Christmas is a season. Okay. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Not, not before the 21st.
Victoria Pendergrass: Fine.
Chris Gazdik: No. Yeah. I’ll still put up
Victoria Pendergrass: my Christmas tree in my office.
Have
Chris Gazdik: at it, but not Not in the lobby total 21st at least you agree. You’re going to disappoint. Am I being a little bit too rough here? I told it now. That’s all
Victoria Pendergrass: today that the christmas tree was going up this week. He’s gonna be disappointed
Chris Gazdik: Vetoed all right. Listen, we gotta get going here guys. All right. So this is we’re gonna be talking about All about AA, a case for Alcoholics Anonymous and the three questions that we want to [00:02:00] hit are what is my perception of Alcoholics Anonymous and how has it shaped my views on recovery and do you know anyone that’s been involved with AA and what has been their experience with the program and what are your thoughts on group based versus individually based approaches to addiction recovery.
So I think we’re going to have an awesome conversation about this and people that are in, you know, contemplative states are figuring out like I may or may not have a problem. I don’t know about this addiction thing is, you know, we
will not be talking about what is addiction today at all. We have other shows on that is reason being.
And it’ll take us down the trail. It takes too much time because I want you to have a really good understanding this show on what AA is, how it works, because I believe that it is the, the best for the most amount of people. For most people, it is the best program that’s out there. That’s, that’s how I would agree with that.
You agree? Yeah. I heard that actually when I was before I was even a clinician a waiter told [00:03:00] me that about AA. So let me see, subscribe, click your job. If you like our content to help us out is get your friend to be a YouTube subscriber. Click the subscribe button. Listen, we need your help with the five star.
How many stars? Five stars. John wants five stars.
John-Nelson Pope: Five stars.
Chris Gazdik: Look, we need your help. to grow. We need your help for people to find us. That’s your job. We’re trying to create awesome content for you that’s free. So this is oh, not to delivery therapy services in any way. Contact at throughwiththerapisteyes.
com is a great way to get up with us. This is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure this out together. So we have a current Some interesting United States event occurred recently that all of those around the world, I suspect, have been watching. Victoria, do you have any [00:04:00] idea what I might be talking about?
Yeah, I think so. Maybe.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Maybe.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. What’s, what’s, what, what event has, has, has gone on this week that I, I’m, I’m having a hard time recalling.
Victoria Pendergrass: I believe that would be the elections.
Chris Gazdik: Of course. The U. S. elections. Both national, state, and local. The United States held an election this year, John. What do you think, man?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, I, I think it’s very polarizing and I think a lot of people are upset about it and a lot of people are very happy about it. So, and the outcomes and the reality is, it’s democracy and it’s messy. It’s like making sausage, it’s, and I, I’m for one, I think that people have some, some, some very sincerely held political beliefs and they feel very strongly about it.
We live in a very polarized time right now, but people Or losing it, [00:05:00] sometimes. They are, John. They are losing it, and they don’t need to. Listen,
Chris Gazdik: I have been saying for a long time, it is shocking to me, man. Huh. That, you know, I’ve been doing therapies since 1997. Honestly, I have never seen an individual famous person be able to create clinical level issues with my clients.
And I have clinical level effects with families being estranged, husband and wives, Going more than fighting, even having this as a topic of separation. Please
John-Nelson Pope: don’t lose your relationship with a loved one over politics.
Chris Gazdik: It’s ridiculous. It’s not necessary.
John-Nelson Pope: It’s a new religion, I think, for people. I think we’ve lost some of our traditional religious settings and bearings, and so we’ve made our politics into that religion.
And I think we have to be careful about that.
Chris Gazdik: Interesting perspective [00:06:00] from the pastor guy over there. And I can totally see that, John, I can totally see that. But look, I want to really put a clear message out to the world. Like particularly my fellow United States of American citizens. There is no need for fear, period.
There’s no need for fear. We need prudence. And we need action what a
John-Nelson Pope: wonderful word prudence. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: right That’s all we need john. I mean We were talking before the mics come on and you made the point really well that you know Three and a half years ago. So many people were up in arms It’s rigged and we’re gonna lose our democracy and everything’s bad.
Nothing’s gonna be good You know, we’re still standing john
John-Nelson Pope: Our our nature our constitution Is strong and it’s stronger than, than our political beliefs.
Victoria Pendergrass: So you’re saying that people have to have faith that that will uphold. So, right. We
John-Nelson Pope: are, [00:07:00] we have a Republic and a Republic is, it’s not a direct democracy.
There are checks and balances, even if there are three branches of the government that are controlled by In a political leanings, the fact is there, the constitution itself is a, is a vanguard and a safeguard now that I’m going back to my old political science. That’s
Chris Gazdik: absolutely what I studied, too.
Yeah, I mean, look, fear has been used. As a weapon, as a tool for ages, it is the oldest tool in the books, arguably because it works so well, it is being used explosively. It’s like God. And I think from social media and the internet, new human experience on the internet, just nuclear. It. We’ve literally had assassination attempts, I think, because of it on a candidate, Mr.
Trump. Like, that’s, [00:08:00] that’s crazy. I don’t, I don’t remember what stoked the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan. I was a kid, but this has happened in our country.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, you know, I’ve been, I’ve been through several assassinations. Kennedy, Martin Luther King RFK. Those were
Chris Gazdik: tumultuous times in the 60s.
John-Nelson Pope: Yes. And that, and then there was the civil rights going through in the 60s. Vietnam,
Chris Gazdik: did our country make it through that? Yeah, I saw it. It did. It did. We, we went
John-Nelson Pope: through Watergate and it was, and that was perhaps one of the greatest trials of our nation. Yeah. During that time we went through the cold war.
I’m 71 years old, so I’m old enough to remember there were there was in the 1940s there was rationing there wasn’t enough to go around because of the, of
the second world war where we did have an existential threat to our [00:09:00] country and an external threat through both Germany and the, and the empire of Japan.
Right. So we went through the depression. And, which, it was devastating when there were 20, 30 percent unemployment. People
Chris Gazdik: were jumping out of buildings. Buildings. Literally. Suicidal.
John-Nelson Pope: Our constitution. I think it, it stayed there still, still there. Yes.
Chris Gazdik: Listen, I’m being a little sarcastic cause I’m having a little fun with it.
We need to laugh and smile about some of these things, but I know there are a lot of people that are hurting and I know there are a lot of people that are fearful. I know that there are a lot of people that are grieving and some of those experiences. That you’re having are very, very natural as a part of having passion and caring, but we need to really be careful about fear dominating our operation.
John-Nelson Pope: There’s a great song by Billy Joel, 1989. We didn’t start the fire. The fire’s been [00:10:00] burning since the world’s been turning. I know the song. We we’ve made it through each time.
Chris Gazdik: John you had me singing in public man. Nobody has ever been able to do that for me and I like literally do it now and he gave me a compliment Victoria the other day.
Good voice. I popped a a phrase of a song out and this is what he said. Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: But I think the bottom line what you’re also getting at here is like also take care of your mental health.
Chris Gazdik: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Talk about it. Like, don’t let
Victoria Pendergrass: yourself, if, if you are, have all this fear going on and we have all these anxieties, like, don’t just let those things fester, like, take care of your mental health, go to therapy, talk to somebody, like, talk these things out, like, it’s, it’s okay to like, talk about how you’re, how you feel about, you know,
John-Nelson Pope: I have relatives that are preppers and preppers.
Because of what happened [00:11:00] because Biden got elected and Harris got elected and you know, they’ve got. 25 years worth of food saved up. And, and it’s they’re putting their faith in foolish things. And I love my relatives that are this way. I also have relatives that said, we’re going to leave the country if Trump gets elected.
Yeah, we, we don’t have to do any of those things. We just go about our lives. We make bomb bunkers for
Chris Gazdik: nuclear weapons and nuclear war. John. Right. Yeah. We, to bring the temperature down, like talked about these things, like Victoria’s talking about also returned to being able to talk respectfully to your neighbors about the topic.
We’re all on the same team in these United States and around the world. You know, the same probably goes, I’m not an expert and don’t see all the All of the news realities. But I know there’s a lot of vitriol around the world in your country of origin. I lived [00:12:00] in the
John-Nelson Pope: Philippines for three and a half years when I was in the service.
I went through a revolution. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. And we had something to worry about. Yeah. So I’m not trying to diminish your fear, people’s fears. At the same time, I want to say, but let’s be reasonable. Let’s, let’s contextualize it. Let’s put it in perspective, prudence, prudence. Again, you, your fears are, we want to hear them.
We want to know about them, but we also want to mitigate them. Yes.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. We can do this. I love that. Thank you. I know we spent a little bit of extra time on that, but folks around the world, probably hopefully you didn’t tune out. I know that, you know, we have a lot of emotional turmoil, you know, related to this particular series of elections that we’ve had since 16 to now, you know, and so I know we spent a lot of time on it, but I feel like it was necessary and a good message to get out to people.
We have a [00:13:00] platform and I want to use it. So let’s switch to Alcoholics Anonymous. Victoria, go.
John-Nelson Pope: Alcoholics Anonymous. I’m a very strong believer in AA, but most of my clients that are in recovery don’t like to use it.
Chris Gazdik: Now let’s set this up.
John-Nelson Pope: Most, most, most really most than I worked well, see, that’s where we’re working to make sure that to deal with their fears about it because that’s an interesting statement.
I don’t have that experience. Yeah, unfortunately, I guess, I guess I have. Interesting. All
Chris Gazdik: right. Well, Victoria, I want to set this up. I mean you know, before the mics came on, we were talking about it. So why don’t you. Put your stamp on how you want to be in this episode what you know that type of thing Like what what’s going on with you with the case for alcoholics anonymous?
Victoria Pendergrass: i’ll be honest, which you know, I usually am
Chris Gazdik: wildly. So
Victoria Pendergrass: Even when y’all don’t want me to be but [00:14:00] yeah, I mean i’m gonna be honest and I will say that I don’t know everything about aa Probably not as much as I could know as a therapist. I mean I took an addictions class I love that. I think that’s fantastic.
Yeah. Which was, it was required. We had to take it. That is really, really great. That’s part of our
John-Nelson Pope: K Crip curriculum. Is it K Crip now? Yeah. K Crip requires addiction.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. Really? Yes. For just counseling? For elements.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Holy crap. Yeah. K, K crap is an accreditation body of people that go to counseling programs and 60, 60
John-Nelson Pope: hours of, of, of education.
And of that three hours are devoted for addiction. I love that. But we cut Victoria off.
Victoria Pendergrass: They did. I did have to go. We talked about, I’ll call it synonymous. I did have to go to an AA meeting, which I did. And like I said before, it was hot dog day and it was really good. That was
Chris Gazdik: before the mics came [00:15:00] on.
So yeah, she, she went, she had to go to a AA meeting to learn. I
Victoria Pendergrass: will say I, if I’m being honest, I don’t know all the 12 steps and I, you know, I probably could learn more about. AA in order to help my clients in a better way.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, and I think the 12 steps, they’re basically you have the, the, it’s the blue book right here.
Big book. The big book
Victoria Pendergrass: is that like the Bible, Victoria
Chris Gazdik: was laughing because I was trying to hand her the book and, and show you know, her, which the page is marked. So don’t lose the marking of the page. Victoria, I think the way that I wanted like to use you through the show ’cause I have what I feel like is extensive knowledge about AA and John.
I, I think you do as well, right. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we’re going to wrap through this and whatnot and you can ask good questions or really you’re going to be soaking up knowledge, which is why I might be a little bit quiet today. I love talking about things that we we’re [00:16:00] learning as we’re going guys.
We’re always I mean it. We we figure things out together. So we’re going to figure things out with it. Victoria and, and have a great time learning about AA because this is, I’ll repeat it off again of the front of the show, I said, you know, when I was working as a, a, actually a busser, I wasn’t even waiting tables yet, I was in college and, you know, a waiter, you know made the statement about a John that stuck with me and now years later, I look back and I mean, he, he had to have been in recovery.
Of course, you know, the food and beverage business is chock stock full of folks that are struggling with addiction issues. And so he made the statement that a is what works best for most right period. I think that’s a
John-Nelson Pope: very succinct way to say it. It works if you work it. That’s a phrase. That’s another phrase.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: I’ve, I’ve, I’ve quoted him hundreds of times, thousands of times over the years because it’s, I think it’s just, it’s really on point and if you want to get sober, that is the [00:17:00] go to place to start and we’re going to go through the, the discussion today and, and talk about it. 1935 this guy named Bill Wilson and Dr.
Bob
John-Nelson Pope: was a medical doctor. Yes,
Chris Gazdik: he was. What did Bill do? I think it was a salesman.
John-Nelson Pope: I think it was a salesman. Car salesman. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.
Chris Gazdik: Model T Fords and stuff. Yeah. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: But he, they just got really stressed out because they tried to, to raw dog it. Did you get sober? Did you,
Chris Gazdik: by raw dog, you mean just quit drinking and sober?
It’s all this stuff comes on you. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a lot to early recovery. Did you get to watch the movie Bill Wilson? No.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, I didn’t
Chris Gazdik: either.
John-Nelson Pope: It
Chris Gazdik: looks like a really, really
John-Nelson Pope: good movie. I think I saw a mini series about 30 years ago, and I think Yeah, there is a movie
Chris Gazdik: that came out, and it looked like it did a really good job of talking about it.
But, listen. What did I say? [00:18:00] 1935 is when two guys got together and created this program we now call Alcoholics Anonymous. It’s a
John-Nelson Pope: mid western phenomena.
Chris Gazdik: Literally, what they did was they created these steps that they had come up with. done together and wrote it down and created a program. It began meeting with people.
John-Nelson Pope: They actually got their influence from the Oxford group, which was a religious group that started in 1932. By a Reverend Buckman and they said there were six principles with that Oxford group. Okay. And they build on that and they expanded and I think it’s a lot more effective. Love that.
Love that. I didn’t know that. The Oxford group was not intended for like an AA group. It was, it was.
Chris Gazdik: See, Victoria, I’m learning as well, right? So the thing that I bring that up for very much though, is cause I want to make the point this started out with two dudes in Akron, Ohio in 1935 and by the time I came on board and around.
Yeah. It is a worldwide program that is in every city across the entire world, [00:19:00] essentially. That’s remarkable. Yeah. That’s absolutely remarkable. Of the
John-Nelson Pope: population, would you say and I think it is too people having, struggling with addiction issues, how, what percentage of the population do you think?
What do you
Chris Gazdik: mean?
John-Nelson Pope: 10%. 10%. Yeah. Yeah. It’s pretty stable. Yeah, it’s
Chris Gazdik: been pretty static for a long, long period of time. 10 percent of our population around the world, I think too. That’s an inter. National figure and whatnot. Neil, you got the mic, you, you, you talking? What’s up? I don’t know if they
Neil Robinson: can hear me because of the mic back there, but Stepping Stones Hold
Chris Gazdik: on a minute, let’s make sure, because
Neil Robinson: You can just repeat me.
Steppingstones. org.
Chris Gazdik: Have you heard of that place? Steppingstones. org. I have not. In New York, you can actually go to Bill Wilson’s house. Oh, very cool. Huh.
Neil Robinson: So check out stepping stones.org. I actually work with them person.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, really? Yeah. So you, in your other day job, you work with Stepping Stones up in New York, which is actually Bill Wilson’s house.
And that can be a, a destination site. I love that. I, [00:20:00] I, I would like to see that
John-Nelson Pope: I’m not your stepping stone. That’s.
Chris Gazdik: Is that a song?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, it’s a song. I don’t even know that
Chris Gazdik: song. It’s from the 60s. All right, what else you know, I mean, that’s, that’s, we need to blaze through some of this stuff. Any, any other overview though, with the basically, well, I like the core principles.
I mean, they, they, they, we’ll talk more about groups. Like, I think I’m actually going to spend some time on groups next week. We probably should have done it in reverse, but The, the fact of the matter is they want to share their strength, experience, and hope. Primarily what you get when you join a group of people is you get to connect with them.
Victoria, you know how powerful group therapy is versus individual therapy. We’ll maybe talk a little bit about that more next week, but the fact of the matter is, when you are at your wit’s end, alcohol’s been destroying your life, You’re full of fear that we just talked about at the beginning of the show shame and guilt and you can [00:21:00] barely make eye Contact with people when you’re coming to make the statement I am an alcoholic and then you find and discover an entire group of people that are more than willing to share their strength through recovery that they’ve gotten their Experiences on you’re not alone and you’re not the only person dealing with this crazy problem with alcohol or drug
and hope Because I and all of these people and many before us have gotten well through sobriety, sharing strength experience and hope is, I think, I think,
John-Nelson Pope: and I think that’s one of the things is that the, the importance of the group experience with, with a, a, because individually you are like.
When you’re fearful and you’re separated and you’re isolated and you drink alone or you’re, you take your drugs illicitly that you’re addicted to, you are you don’t have that hope that you could ever get better because [00:22:00] it has such a grasp on you.
Chris Gazdik: So,
John-Nelson Pope: yeah, yeah. Less. Hopelessness. And doomed. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, it’s a big deal.
So. I understand the program comes with 12 steps. This is interesting and different, though, because these are steps that people have done already. They’re just sharing with you suggestions on what these folks have done that actually results in attaining and maintaining sobriety. And so, you know, there’s not a lot of programs like that, that are basically sharing their strength.
Their experiences with these meetings and these programs in this process and there’s other suggestions like Don’t make any major changes in the first year of recovery the all the all of these are suggestions Just saying what other people did and you work your own program is the language, right? You, you, you, you, you get a sponsor who [00:23:00] works with you.
It’s an important part of the program and there’s different types of meetings, but you work through the system in your own way, in your own pace, in your own time. And
John-Nelson Pope: you have, you have also the, the closed meeting and then you have the open meeting. Okay. Closed meetings are. Are basically where everybody’s welcome at the open meetings It’s the closed meetings where you get into some of the nitty gritty.
You have to be
Chris Gazdik: an a a member a member And do you know what the requirements of membership are? only to have a desire for sobriety Have a desire to get better. So you don’t
Victoria Pendergrass: can I ask a clarifying question? I would assume based on other closed groups You’re all, you’re starting at the same time.
Chris Gazdik: You’re thinking clinical.
No. No. No. Okay. Yeah, it’s, it’s a good question. In, in, in our clinical therapy world, we have open groups and closed groups. Open means that. Which we’ll learn about later on. Yeah, which, right. We’ll, we’ll talk [00:24:00] probably next week about it, but people start and stop at different times and then closed groups are ones that start all at the same time and end all at the same time.
So in the clinical world, these are all open meetings, you know, in your, in your brain.
Victoria Pendergrass: But closed in this. means that not anybody can just walk in. Right. Like the meeting I went to was open because obviously I was able to go to it. They probably taught you that. Yes.
Chris Gazdik: Right. You know, open meetings anybody in the public can go to and they understand that to get exposure, to check it out, to do all that kind of thing.
But if you have a desire to stop, to deal with your problem with alcohol, you can go to any meeting. You can go to closed or open, doesn’t matter. But there’s also types of meetings, John. I know you know those different types. Are, well, speaker meetings and
John-Nelson Pope: speaker meetings, right? Then there’s also for people from different backgrounds, for example their meetings for health professionals.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, there are some specialized meetings in AA, isn’t there? Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: yeah. But, but
Chris Gazdik: [00:25:00] there’s, but there’s types of meetings that you’ll go to and encounter. Like a speaker meeting where one person is telling their story to the group. There’s a discussion groups where you’re simply discussing. There’s a study
John-Nelson Pope: group.
Big book study group, yeah. So there’s,
Chris Gazdik: there’s open, closed, different types. But really the main thing to understand is anyone can go that has a desire to deal with their problem without. Huh. At any point also they’re easy to find. There’s a resource that I want to put out there to you that clients have taught me because I used to fight for meeting lists, John.
And I never, I never seemed to have like the local meeting list that I needed when I needed it. I don’t, you know, they remember the old blue big postcards and stuff that used to have, but now we have an app. What is this? The app? I know I was gonna talk about it later on and I’m not finding it. Yes.
Thank you. Where is that? Yeah, it has a white chair and a blue background and it’s literally called the meeting guide [00:26:00] The meeting guide and make sure you got the right one a white chair is on a blue background And that just tells you where all the meetings are very very cool. You can also google. It’s not hard to find I don’t know.
How much do we want to get into the understanding of the program? structure victoria, you might be really helpful for us here to You To say like the the the history the structure the operation You know I don’t want to spend too much time on that at my point. So what?
Victoria Pendergrass: Structure probably structure kind of like how it works
Chris Gazdik: Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: those type of thing.
I think we definitely need it Cover,
Chris Gazdik: okay Ask a question or something about that. I don’t know. What
Victoria Pendergrass: 12 steps? Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: absolutely Okay, 12 steps. Oh
Victoria Pendergrass: I
Chris Gazdik: can’t ask the question. Interesting. Okay. I’m prepared for that. Or like,
Victoria Pendergrass: is that important enough for us to talk about? It is. Oh, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It’s crucial. It is. It’s very important and I and I’ll tell you the way I want to answer that is [00:27:00] there’s a really cool, there’s a guy, I’m sure you remember father Martin.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, oh, Chalk Talk.
Chris Gazdik: Chalk Talk, baby. I watched Chalk Talk doing my DUI education 18 hour class. That was my first professional gig, which is why I know so much about addiction because I lucked out and I got exposure right in the beginning. And I did basic presentation over and over and over and over again.
I watched chalk talk probably damn near 135 times. Seen more than I have. Yeah, easy. Maybe two, 300 father Martin also did a chalk talk type. Talk That was fun He did a chalk talk type of a talk about 12 step And so that was really cool. And I always remember the way that he layered it out victoria is you’ve got the first three Steps are all kind of coordinated Okay, we admitted we were powerless over alcohol and our lives have become [00:28:00] unmanageable.
That’s the classic first step you identify that it’s unmanageable But then what you do is you you you You, you spend those first three steps figuring out, my life’s unmanageable, I need to do something about it, and then I took an action. The second three, step like four, five, and six, right, are, are organized around like, okay, I’m identifying, I have personality, character flaws, or defects, I need to get ready to remove them, and I ask God to move them, right?
The next trio, whatever it is, like five, six, seven, eight, and nine, right, Is like, okay, I’ve really screwed people over. I need to get ready to make amends. And then I went and I make amends. And then you make a
John-Nelson Pope: list of all the people that you’ve harmed, right? Right.
Chris Gazdik: And then the last section is I’m, you know, continuing to endeavor, moving forward in my own work, and I carry this to other people, you know, to carry it forward, what I have learned and what I’ve gained, my strength, experience, and hope.
That’s the way he clumped the steps together, John. [00:29:00] I thought it was a cool way to. To clump them, but what do you say about this? Well,
John-Nelson Pope: no, he kind of did it like the Ten Commandments. So in a way. Well, he’s Father Martin. Father Martin. But, but it is a sad, so in other words, they, they clump together according to the areas that they’re identifying.
And I think it’s a process that you go through. With, with the 12 steps and you’re able to, to, and I think people get stuck on their steps when they work the steps and, and they do. And it’s okay. Yes. It’s. I would imagine
Victoria Pendergrass: you’re, you’re. addressing things that you’ve literally pushed to the side for, you know, a long period of time.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, that’s absolutely the case. I mean, you’ve been drinking away your feelings for, you know, however long your drinking career has been. But the fact of the matter is, I think that, you know, that’s, there’s, there’s something, John, that is a deeper part of your, how that [00:30:00] happens, I feel like. And that’s when oftentimes people are unearthing, you know, real experiences with mental health, real stuck points with trauma.
Different things that kind of come up and come out. And that’s why towards the end, we were going to talk about some aspects. And one of the aspects of add on feature is, it’s, it is really helpful to be in a therapy experience. Why you’re going through recovery work. I mean, because we deal with all those things.
And to some extent, would you agree, John? I don’t know that you get that level in a,
John-Nelson Pope: No, no, you don’t you get,
it’s almost like with some of the folks that I’ve worked with in 12 steps. There is this idea that it might seem a little mechanistic. In other words they will just say, We’ll do this, this, this, and this, but they’re, they, they’re still struggling with working through those steps. And so they [00:31:00] don’t really get into the, so there’s the patina.
There’s the outward carrying of the twelve steps, but they haven’t really internalized it. And I think that’s. The part where I think as therapists we can come in and help them with that
Chris Gazdik: Victoria, which is a cooler word patina or prudence
Victoria Pendergrass: I don’t know because I really don’t know what either of them
Chris Gazdik: I’m sorry No, john, i’m not crashing on you. I just thought it was funny. I thought it was fun earlier today. I was just shut up That’s a you know Okay, prudence means that you’re, you’re taking information and you’re making a prudent decision, a good decision, you’re being thoughtful, you’re being thorough, right?
But I don’t know what A patina
John-Nelson Pope: is the outward covering of something that looks very nice, but it’s not, it’s not in depth yet. Love that, okay, so I didn’t know what it was either, Victor. So and it’s okay to have patina, it’s just
Chris Gazdik: but yeah, but there are [00:32:00] things that people get into when you get sober with your trauma and your, your head and that’s
Victoria Pendergrass: because you, I would assume you’ve been drinking to suppress those things.
And so now that you don’t have the alcohol there,
Chris Gazdik: it’s an interesting expression that you say, drinking to suppress things. And I’m curious how you’ll. Agree or disagree, but let’s be careful. Maybe not suppress it. Wait, wait, wait. It’s okay. It’s a good it’s a good statement I don’t want to go into a rabbit hole about addiction what it is and what it isn’t though But you say it that way and i’m curious john how you would receive that because I would return And if it were normal, we’d have a conversation victoria, but I don’t want to go into it Do people drink to suppress their emotions?
People drink to suppress their feelings. I would say yes, they do but more so You They’re just drinking because alcoholism pushes you towards drinking,
John-Nelson Pope: right? Right. Yeah, that’s, and you live, breathe, eat, drinking. It’s just, it’s a
Chris Gazdik: biological [00:33:00] thing here.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: But yet we have this belief, particularly in our field, Victoria, that people are coping.
With life they’re you know, drinking their feelings away and all that that would be
Victoria Pendergrass: alcohol abuse
Chris Gazdik: That would be alcohol abuse exactly which good give her a high five, baby. Yeah, heck. Yeah Banging which we’ve talked about that
Victoria Pendergrass: in a prior episode the reason why
Chris Gazdik: that’s a great moment guys. I want you to understand John and I’s excitement a little bit because we, there is a great divide in our field and it bothers me, it drives me nuts and I’d like to make a bold statement that clinicians need to get an understanding of what addiction is and isn’t and how it works because there’s a mental health clinicians that say, I don’t do substance abuse and then there’s substance abuse clinicians.
They don’t mental health issues and it’s just better now but it still exists. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, I guess what my whole beginning statement though was that Because the alcohol is not there to be a buffer to addressing the trauma, it [00:34:00] like floods in. Pretty quickly all at once if you’re an alcoholic
Chris Gazdik: if you’re not an alcoholic it does not
Victoria Pendergrass: right.
Well, yeah, that’s the
Chris Gazdik: point People have trauma all sorts of people have trauma. Yeah, I don’t want to go down this rabbit hole Yeah, a lot of people have
John-Nelson Pope: trauma aren’t alcoholics exactly don’t have a job. That’s the
Chris Gazdik: point 10 percent of our population, we, we said earlier, tends to have alcoholism. And I think
John-Nelson Pope: that gives the idea that there’s a disease process that’s going on.
Right. Yeah. Right. And I think you and I agree with that.
Chris Gazdik: But let’s go on with the structure of meetings and how meetings work. Cause there’s another real big discussion that we have got to have before we begin discussing how things operate and what to look out for and what to. Do and that type of thing.
John, is this a religious organization
John-Nelson Pope: or not? I would say that it is not a religious organization. I would say that it’s a spiritual organization, right? And I think that’s one of the keys is why it’s been so successful because if it’s a religious [00:35:00] organization, then, and that’s where it gets when people start thinking of it in terms of a religious organization is where people might feel excluded, right?
Yeah. So.
Chris Gazdik: Very, very unfortunate. Over many years of doing my work, I’ve really tried to help people, you know, see past what you see with AA. Because what you will see is, hold that book up Victoria, what you will see is a big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. Now that’s the old one, you have to go to YouTube and subscribe to the YouTube channel, please, by the way.
Because, you know, we do live YouTubes on Thursdays. And you can see the book on the YouTube there. And it looks, you know.
John-Nelson Pope: It looks like a
Chris Gazdik: Bible. It’s like a Bible. Yeah. It’s a Bible. And it’s
John-Nelson Pope: got its own scriptures. They literally
Chris Gazdik: say the Our Father at meetings. That is a Catholic or Christian based prayer to the Judeo Christian of God.[00:36:00]
The word God is in the 12 steps repetitively, repeatedly, and it is capitalized. So, John, how do we not see this as a religious organization? Because I totally agree with you.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I would say I think the other, and this is when I was Going through Dr you know, father Martin and talk, talk. And when I was at chaplain school, because that’s one of the big issues of military is the, the dealing with addiction alcoholism.
Oh,
Chris Gazdik: oh, really? Oh, yeah. A big issue in the military. So, that’s what
John-Nelson Pope: chaplains are, are, often do a lot of their training. Oh, really? In that area. On substance abuse? Yeah, on substance abuse. Addiction? Yeah. So, but, the reason why it’s not is because you could say, you could be an atheist and, and believe in, and follow the tenets of AA.
You have the The higher power aspect of it, a power greater than yourself.
Chris Gazdik: Well, then let’s, let’s [00:37:00] come back to the higher power because that is another really important part, but let’s stay on the religious part. Well, I
John-Nelson Pope: wouldn’t say that it has, it doesn’t have dogma. . So religion has a dogma and and, and it’s also organized, I think in, in Ter religion is this is organized, but it is in terms of a, of a fellowship more than anything else.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, it’s not even an organization. It’s not even an organization. It’s a
John-Nelson Pope: fellowship. It’s a fellowship. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It’s, it’s a tough thing, John, that I have had people struggle with and there’s a lot of resistance because. It really feels religency and people in early recovery are not wanting to be all religious.
They don’t want religion. They don’t want to like God. Yeah. Don’t do this to me. I’ve been up so bad. There’s no way God would ever even think of me. So I don’t want to go anywhere near God.
John-Nelson Pope: So there’s no judgment zone to me. It’s like going to a planet fitness.
Chris Gazdik: This is [00:38:00]
John-Nelson Pope: no judgment zone.
Chris Gazdik: It, it, I love that.
It, it really is. And, and, and it, it, it’s not a religious organization. There’s nobody that gives you any direction or tells you what to do. They really are suggesting,
John-Nelson Pope: and, and you work. And that’s the other thing is, is that in a religious system you work towards, you, you have to follow a, a sense of, of strictures rules.
Rules to, in order to, to get yourself. Right with God. You know, I’ve never thought about that. But, but. Are
Chris Gazdik: there any rules associated to AA?
John-Nelson Pope: Not that I, you work your own recovery, right? There are no rules, are there? Right. Literally.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, isn’t the one rule that it like stays anonymous? Wouldn’t that be
Chris Gazdik: considered like a rule?
Okay. Okay. Well, interesting. There are something called the 12 traditions of AA. And instead of the 12 steps, there’s 12 steps into 12 traditions. The 12 traditions are, what are they, John? Are they rules or suggestions about how we [00:39:00] operate?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, they’re tradition. They’re not, yeah, it’s not a rule. It’s not a rule.
It’s a tradition. I guess the word
Chris Gazdik: says itself.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: What’s the difference between tradition and rule? We want you to follow this rule. Or, we want you to follow this tradition. No.
John-Nelson Pope: A tradition is you follow voluntarily. A rule you have to fall, follow on. The authority. The authority.
Chris Gazdik: I love that. Thank you.
I just learned that. I never thought of that that way. Say that again.
John-Nelson Pope: God, I can’t do that. And you know, I never,
Chris Gazdik: we have the 12 traditions in the 12 steps, right? In rule, but you do all of the authority, right? Traditions. We’re following the
John-Nelson Pope: rules. We have to follow rules. It’s licensed therapist. Yeah. So we have
Victoria Pendergrass: authority over it.
Yeah. Chat GPT would agree.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah. Rule, a rule is
Victoria Pendergrass: a specific direct, directive or regulation set by an authority. There’s none of that in AA. Yeah. None. Tradition is a [00:40:00] custom or practice passed down within a culture, community, or family often celebrated or observed because of
John-Nelson Pope: its historical importance.
Okay. So it is like a family.
Chris Gazdik: Perfectly set. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: So, yeah. What’s a fellowship? Fellowship.
Victoria Pendergrass: Traditions are typically voluntary. Okay. Where rules are usually enforced, meaning that there are consequences if you break them.
Chris Gazdik: So, honestly, there’s no rules, there’s great structure to help you in early recovery, there’s 12 steps, it’s a, it’s not a religious organization, it very much can feel that way, so I really, really want to prepare people for that.
And that’s den
John-Nelson Pope: not denigrating religion, I think, so, I mean, that’s.
Victoria Pendergrass: To keep it anonymous thing would be a that is a tradition is that we do not go say, oh, hey, Chris, I saw you at AA or whatever.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I saw a bus driver on AA, mommy. Yeah, none of that, you know, and, and, and if you do, we’re going to punch your lights out.
No, just kidding. There’s no punishments because there’s no rules. It’s just, this is what we all agree to voluntarily. John, what about the higher power? Do [00:41:00] you know anything about the higher power, Victoria? And how it works with
Victoria Pendergrass: higher power, I would assume. Whatever the individual believes is their like higher power.
Yeah. Religion. Yeah. Religion. It’s not religion. It’s not. It has nothing to do with it. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Nothing to do with it. Okay. So, John. Will you
Victoria Pendergrass: teach me one of those things? Yes, ma’am. Okay. We can
Chris Gazdik: do that. What would you say? How would you describe higher power? Because it’s another big component of what works really, really well with AA.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, the way it was explained to me. When I was at chaplain school was the idea that the higher power is you could have a higher power. You could believe that that’s that door handle, but it’s it’s something greater than yourself and it’s something outside of yourself and it’s a sanity that’s outside of yourself.
And I think that, okay. And so I don’t know if
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m tracking that.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. I’ll pick you up here and say, okay,
John-Nelson Pope: well it’s, Can I try to spin it? It takes outside of [00:42:00] yourself.
Chris Gazdik: Think about it, Victoria. You have addiction.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right.
Chris Gazdik: Versus abuse.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right.
Chris Gazdik: The primary difference that we’ve talked about in prior shows is the issue of control over your use.
Okay. So, with 10 percent of our populations around the world, I think is accurate, we have identified that you don’t have control. Okay. over alcohol So if you don’t have control over alcohol There’s got to be a higher power that can help you to control Alcohol for you to be sober and so it’s, it’s like, it’s an inherent thing, right?
Like you can’t do anything about this if you don’t have control over it. So a higher power helps you. And the power of the fellowship is a higher power.
Victoria Pendergrass: Are we talking about the higher power being a physical being or is it like an entity, it’s
Chris Gazdik: something greater than
John-Nelson Pope: yourself. That’s it. And, and that’s the, that, that’s the, that’s where we [00:43:00] stumble with our rational mind.
Wait
Chris Gazdik: a minute, John, what’s that, John?
John-Nelson Pope: That’s where we stumble with our rational mind is that we, we, the, the thing is, is you have to take a leap of faith. In a sense that, that you have no control and that you have to trust that there is something greater than yourself that will help you with that. So you don’t necessarily have to be
Victoria Pendergrass: able to identify it.
John-Nelson Pope: You don’t have to say a deity. Okay. Right.
Victoria Pendergrass: But you just have to be able to recognize that there is something like you just said that there is something great. That’s why
Chris Gazdik: he said you can identify the doorknob as your higher power. It’s really your own program. I personally feel like that’s a little silly.
You know, I’ve never thought that to be a great plan. But So, you know, it’s the power of the group or, you know, a, a, a friendship or, you know, the, the energy that you get from a sponsor or, or a God or an Allah or whatever. So it could be
Victoria Pendergrass: like a real, there could be a [00:44:00] religion.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, a hundred percent. My power, power is God.
I mean, as the Judeo Christian.
John-Nelson Pope: And I think you’d see that like in groups that are AA related to like celebrate recovery.
Chris Gazdik: Well, we’re going to come to that. Okay. Good. Yeah. We’re going to come to that because that’s a big warning. Yeah. In my mind.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay.
Chris Gazdik: So did we get a good job? I think did, did, did, did we have a flavor Victoria?
Yeah. Can you, cause you could judge better than John and I.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. I think I have a better grasp. And
Chris Gazdik: the function, the structure, the operation, certainly a little of the controversy for with religious versus spiritual. Yeah. And I
Victoria Pendergrass: think I would, and I don’t correct me if I’m wrong. So AA is a thing. Once you go through all 12 steps, you don’t just stop going.
Chris Gazdik: No, you have to correct or you go, you go as
Victoria Pendergrass: needed.
Chris Gazdik: Or
Victoria Pendergrass: how does that work? Or is it specific per person?
Chris Gazdik: It works if you work it, it keeps working. If you keep working it, that’s what they working it. Yeah. So you, if you
John-Nelson Pope: turn it over, you can. So, so if I
Victoria Pendergrass: work, I could work the 12 steps [00:45:00] and then never go to an AA meeting ever again in my life and re retain my sobriety?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, no. I think that’s, again, group community. It is essential. I think that’s where a lot of people mess up and they think that they can go it alone. Leads to relapse. Leads to relapse. Okay. Inevitably. You can’t. And every, every, and they’ll use the term freely addict. The a, a, well, some cultures, some cultures, we
Chris Gazdik: don’t talk about addiction or drugs, alcohol, but we’ll come to, there’s some fuddy duddies out there, John.
Yeah, I know.
John-Nelson Pope: So, but, but the idea is that you have to have, in a sense, be in a community with somebody And and that’s why you have a sponsor and that’s why you have somebody that, that can bring you that can bring you back and support encouragement. [00:46:00] It’s,
Chris Gazdik: it’s a lot like you might experience Victoria, like, you know, in your religious journey really.
And this is why there’s a lot of parallels with AA and religion, but it is not a religious organization. You can be close to God on your own. Never attend a church, never be a part of a group. Right. But you know how powerful it is to be a part of a group. Right. I mean, I can be, you know, great at pool, but if I shoot pool and I meet with a fellowship that’s teaching me and I’m teaching them and we’re gaining tricks and we’re keeping our skills sharp.
Look, there’s a big difference between early recovery And long term recovery, which I don’t believe you get to until about a year or two sober before you that’s why
John-Nelson Pope: you don’t get into other relationships with people that you wouldn’t. That’s why they say, yeah. No major changes. No major changes, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: In early recovery, you really need a lot of support. They actually say, if you’re just doing purely AA and nothing else, 90 meetings in 90 days, they say 90 in 90. And that’s because it’s so intense to [00:47:00] be off of alcohol and you’re struggling.
John-Nelson Pope: You’ve got to grow up a lot too, because you’re stuck at a certain age and I don’t know if you agree with me on this, but when you start, let’s say you, you develop the addiction.
Right. All right. And
Chris Gazdik: your drinking career begins.
John-Nelson Pope: Yes. And you’re 14, 15 years old emotionally, and you’ve been doing it for 20 years. Yep. You’re 14.
Chris Gazdik: They say your emotion freezes. I take a different bend on that, John. I feel like you, you still develop. It just slows to a crawl.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: you know, I mean a 14 year old addict, which is exists They start getting into their drinking drug career And they don’t mature but they’re behaved,
John-Nelson Pope: but if you see their behavior, they
Chris Gazdik: still graduate high school.
They still learn how to yeah No, no, no, no, no, no, no,
John-Nelson Pope: no, they do that, but i’m talking about behavior behavior in their relationships They’re stunted. It’s grossly stunted grossly stunted, but still develops
Chris Gazdik: Okay, so it just goes to a
Victoria Pendergrass: crawl [00:48:00]
Chris Gazdik: I feel it’s interesting.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, it’s sorry.
Chris Gazdik: John and I were having an interesting thing.
What did you say? We were having a thing
Victoria Pendergrass: back to the frequency
Chris Gazdik: of meetings. Yes. Thank you. Because in long term recovery, you don’t need as much, right? You don’t need 90 days. Yeah, you work your own program, Victoria. So there’s, I don’t think there’s any direct suggestion about that. John is there.
John-Nelson Pope: No.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, there’s not.
Yeah. Not that I would, and I downloaded. You would talk to your sponsor and your sponsor and you would really work out. And I downloaded
Victoria Pendergrass: the app. I mean, it, it’s a cool app. Oh, cool. Yeah. You already got it. Yeah, I downloaded it and it, look at the millennial,
Chris Gazdik: go, she’s already got the app. I’ve never seen seen it.
Yeah. And it
Victoria Pendergrass: tells me, like right now, using my location, like all, like what time is it? 7 23. It’s, it tells me like all what’s coming up and where. Yeah. 7 30, 7 30, 0 8 o’clock, eight 30. Yeah, they even list the virtual ones to that’s the one at the airport miles. It’s away from here.
John-Nelson Pope: They have them in
Chris Gazdik: airports.
Yeah, that’s [00:49:00] fantastic. I love that app. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
Victoria Pendergrass: this is only just from me like quickly looking at it. I haven’t and what’s it called
Chris Gazdik: meeting place?
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah, it’s literally it’s called meeting guy
Chris Gazdik: meeting guide and
Victoria Pendergrass: it literally is what you said. It’s a blue background with like a white chair, white fold up chair.
Love it. Yeah. Thank you for that. In a circle, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: So
Victoria Pendergrass: anyways,
Chris Gazdik: okay,
Victoria Pendergrass: what are we, what are we tackling next?
Chris Gazdik: We’re going to transition to the big controversial kind of reality of, of John, I can’t, I want to, I don’t know how I could set this up to make it like I want it to be powerfully heard. Right. Like, okay.
We understand scientifically. To certain extent with otherwise debate from other professionals about the topic of a disease model [00:50:00] in addiction, right? That there is a biological process installed at birth through mommy and daddy and the genes and all that that predisposes you that when you drink you will have Addiction, and that’s about 10 to 15 percent of our population, so I like to cut through the noise in Victoria I will say babies are alcoholics or drug addicts or not We just don’t know right until you begin to use they already are okay So all of that being said There is great controversy that has driven me crazy my entire career, John.
Where these other programs, and I’m sorry if I’m gonna step on somebody’s toes, but I’m Not sorry, because I know. Are you talking about
John-Nelson Pope: Celebrate Recovery? Yes, because
Chris Gazdik: I know what I’ve seen all these years and what the science tells us about people that are addicts or Alcoholics [00:51:00] and go to these programs where you are to control y
Victoria, what do we say about control with an alcoholic? You just don’t have it. So there are programs out there y’all that I want you to be very very careful about. Smart recovery. I don’t know. I’m not a
John-Nelson Pope: big, I’m not big on smart recovery. Yeah. And I, and, and I agree with you. I think abstinence is, is the sobriety.
Sobriety is no alcohol, weed,
Chris Gazdik: pot, pills, nothing, all of it. You’re right. It, it, it is the only thing that we know that you can be safe in your life when you have addiction. Period. Right. Mic drop. Fat lady sung, she left the building, Elvis has left the building, what other kind of Huh? Pigs are flying. Pigs are flying, that is it!
Period! Exclamation
John-Nelson Pope: point. When I was a kid, I read in Newsweek, or it was Time Magazine, about the RAND study that came out around [00:52:00] 1970, 71, and they said, well, you can drink in moderation, and then they talked about harm reduction, which would be against We still talk about that. Yeah. In fact one of my professors actually talked about that and was a proponent of it.
I, I, and I told him, I said, I think this works. Yeah. Let’s talk. Yeah. But I mean, he, and he wrote one of the textbooks on, on harm reduction. I just, I just. Didn’t buy it.
Chris Gazdik: Did you raise your hand in class? Jonathan Pope, John Nelson is raising his hand. I
John-Nelson Pope: loved him. Yeah. So I just, but he was, he got it wrong. He got it wrong.
That’s
Chris Gazdik: wrong. These programs that advocate for you can return to controlled drinking, I can’t say strongly enough, like, run. Yeah. If you have addiction, run. That is not going to work for you. [00:53:00] I’ve seen it. Happened so many freaking times in working with people and when you relapse, man, you are going back into hell on earth you go back
John-Nelson Pope: That’s the other aspect of it.
It’s you go back to where you were or even worse and it would progress It’s the progression of addiction
Victoria Pendergrass: Are we saying that someone who suffers from alcohol abuse Would benefit from these programs?
Chris Gazdik: No
Victoria Pendergrass: So it doesn’t matter if it’s alcohol abuse or addiction.
Chris Gazdik: It does. It matters greatly. Go ahead and finish your question.
Yeah, so
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m saying, are you, like, are we saying avoid these people if you have any sort of problem with alcohol? Whether it’s addiction or abuse, or are we just saying, what?
Chris Gazdik: That is a great question. Thank you. I wouldn’t have expected that I wouldn’t have expected that and thought about that john. I’m curious what you will say to this My view is that if you have alcohol abuse Meaning, [00:54:00] you do not have alcoholism or addiction.
Alcohol abuse is primarily characterized by having some sort of problem and continuing to use. In spite of that problem, addiction is the issue of control. We don’t have a blood test, so it’s not really clear. Look, if you have just abuse, or you’re wondering if you have addiction, you’re not really sure, you just know that you’ve got some sort of problem going on here, and alcohol is a big part of it, or drugs, you go to NA, then you could go.
It’s not like you can’t go, and you figure out if you do, but if you figure out you don’t have addiction, and you don’t feel that clarity about that, then this is not for you, because honestly, you don’t need to be abstinent from alcohol.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay,
Chris Gazdik: you don’t if if you’re abusing it stop abusing it and deal with your problems And then you return to drinking.
The trouble is, Within
Victoria Pendergrass: reason.
Chris Gazdik: No, whatever you want to do. You’re not an alcoholic. [00:55:00]
Victoria Pendergrass: The
Chris Gazdik: trouble is when you have alcoholism, that just is
Victoria Pendergrass: devastating. There is no limiting. You can’t, you can’t.
John-Nelson Pope: You cannot not stop and that’s the, the, that’s the biological part of it. There’s a part I had a preferred, you
Chris Gazdik: can stop, but not stay stopped.
John-Nelson Pope: It’s not stay stopped. That’s the thing. And I had a professor described this. He was actually. An alcoholic and he was and he taught pastoral care at seminary and he basically, he gave me the description of, of the worst case of where he could not, not, not Drink, stop drinking. He had to, he had to first thing in the morning got up with the shakes and he would spill half of the, the, the, the drink or half of the bottle to get it right in there and he would have to hold it like this to get into, to his mouth, to drink that guy [00:56:00] was struggling.
He was struggling and he. And it was truly, truly a physical addiction. The disease process was so, so great. Whereas let’s say somebody’s having problems at work or in his marriage or something like this, and he. He drinks to excess he has the hangovers to drown the feelings and he wakes up and Then he starts to work through those issues and he doesn’t he’s fine I don’t think you I don’t think drinking it makes you fine.
Anyway, but that’s a
Chris Gazdik: Makes me feel fine A little bit of wine
John-Nelson Pope: makes you feel fine. That’s
Chris Gazdik: right But
Victoria Pendergrass: okay, I get what you’re saying though. Thank you. Yeah. No,
Chris Gazdik: that’s an awesome question. Like I said, I I love that because I, you know, I’m, I’m, I’ve never, I just don’t think about that. It’s, it’s a, yeah, it’s cause they’re so, yeah, anyway, there’s so many.
You
John-Nelson Pope: [00:57:00] lose your family, you, and people when they lose their jobs. That’s when the, the clarity comes upon them a lot of times, is when they lose the, it’s And so, that’s why you have, you have that. I mean, you just have so much.
Chris Gazdik: Well, and I think, Victoria, you’re kind of asking about what’s the, The longterm plan here and whatever, and I’m looking at my notes and prep.
And, you know, we did want to make an idea that as you go along in this program, you know, there’s continuous step where you go back to step one and redo it, because if you’d look at through that book and you read those steps, you know, it’s just healthy living. It’s, it’s like, it’s reasonable living and you just, it’s like Zen.
It’s, it’s
John-Nelson Pope: the Western version of Zen.
Chris Gazdik: So, so you get, you get this. You get this long term benefit of ingraining it more and more into healthy living. It’s basically a healthy living group. And then, you know what you do when you begin learning something? You teach something. Okay. So the [00:58:00] benefits and power of being in the fellowship of AA for a while, then you turn in to become a sponsor and you sponsor somebody else.
John-Nelson Pope: But you don’t do it after six months, you do it a year or two or so. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It comes full circle, and you, and you learn so much when you teach, you learn so much when you are providing your sobriety. And it reinforces your own sobriety. Is that how
Victoria Pendergrass: you feel as a supervisor? Is that not how you feel as a supervisor?
Because aren’t you an S? I’m an S, yes.
Chris Gazdik: These two dudes in 1935 figured out what they needed to do in order to attain and maintain sobriety. And it’s mostly basically based on everything we know about now, in 2024, what works! For our mental health, the
John-Nelson Pope: thing is, is that there’s a criticism of a, a, in, in some of the [00:59:00] evidence based schools and that is, or, or theories.
And that says that a that there’s not a lot of evidence. For it and I think they’ve come up now and I read an article in preparation for the answer some
Chris Gazdik: of those questions Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: they’re they’re answering some of the questions set
Chris Gazdik: up that article then what what are we talking about?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, the the the article was that that one of the criticisms particularly in the 90s and 80s and 90s was that a a Well, there’s no proof that it, that the, the substantiated this, this, how it works.
And that’s because the nature of AA itself is it’s anonymous. And so there was some reluctance of people in the AA. Community that wouldn’t wouldn’t talk about it. And so they, they, and most, they had a qualitative studies, which would be interviews of people. Now they’ve done some quantitative studies in the researchers [01:00:00] and they’ve been able to To varying rates or what’s the results varying rates is, is that it’s much more effective.
So we
Chris Gazdik: can net, we can see that
John-Nelson Pope: we can see that now.
Chris Gazdik: Well, we always sort of knew. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: We knew that it worked, but
Chris Gazdik: it works. If you work,
John-Nelson Pope: it works if you work it. Yeah. And so there’s some quantifiable data that would show that it, that it works. And it’s not just one, it’s,
Chris Gazdik: I just figured out a fun game that we’re going to go out on.
Between you and me. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. We’re gonna have a competition on who can say as many of the mottos as possible. Okay. I’ll give you brain some, a minute or two to work on that. Think about, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because as we wrap up the, because the thing Victoria, that’s so awesome about Yeah. You know, aa, there’s so many things that are awesome, but, you know, you know, cognitive work, you’re gonna beat me on that.
Yes. You, you know, cognitive work, right? Like, we go through thought process. Mm-Hmm. , we go through, well, you know how powerful a focus point is. Or a mantra is meditating on that [01:01:00] mantra, right? These you can’t cheat, are you looking at, he is trying to cheat! This guy was trying to Google these phrases, that’s not cool, John.
John-Nelson Pope: Well I’m not gonna get anywhere near you, man, I can’t even.
Chris Gazdik: You don’t know. It’ll start coming. But Victoria, they say these mottos over and over again, like it works if you work it, you will cognitively get review on how that works and how that operates. And, and it’s, it almost programs you, but it, it just, it helps you to, to have these focus points.
So, yeah, any other thing that we missed John? Things we want to add, Victoria? Other kind of clarifying questions? Did you learn a little bit about AA?
Victoria Pendergrass: Also, I just want to put the blurb in there because I just see it in the notes. That like, there, oh wait, where is it? That there are things like Al Anon for people who are who are family members or, Alateen,
John-Nelson Pope: Alateen, Al Anon, yeah, or
Victoria Pendergrass: spouses of people who are in, who are,
Chris Gazdik: who know somebody who are friends with [01:02:00] somebody that has alcoholism.
See, that’s,
John-Nelson Pope: that’s the interesting thing is, is that again, it’s also group in a sense that group, the, the family is involved and it’s the, and
Chris Gazdik: a nice plug for Celebrate Recovery is an awesome program because it’s, it’s not affiliated with AA and I don’t think they’re abstinence based. Based per se, particularly, which is a problem, but they talk about your, your hurts habits and hang ups and celebrate recovery.
And so that’s a great place to go to. But I don’t know to celebrate to see our. Advocate for sobriety. I don’t, I don’t know the answer to this. Well, I, I thought it did, but, you thought it did?
John-Nelson Pope: But I
Chris Gazdik: could be wrong. I’m thinking it doesn’t.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Neil, Google that. Does Celebrate Recovery support sobriety?
Or require abstinence, then we’re going to play a little game, John, while he’s looking at up. So these are the different mottos that you hear Victoria in meetings and in a long process of age. You don’t want to do this.
John-Nelson Pope: I could do it, but I’m starting with it [01:03:00] works if you turn it over,
Chris Gazdik: okay? Turn it over.
One day at a time is a mantra.
John-Nelson Pope: One step by step,
Chris Gazdik: step by step. Okay. Okay. Keep it simple, stupid. The kiss method comes from AA.
John-Nelson Pope: I did not know that. I think it comes from AA, bro. Yeah. Yeah. Keep it simple. But that would make it, that would be it. Mm
Victoria Pendergrass: hmm. Okay, I got some more. Easy does it. Easy does it. Oh, you can’t help us out yet.
Oh, sorry.
Chris Gazdik: Easy does it. Easy does it. What’s another one, John? I have no idea. I’m starting to struggle a little bit too, but one day at a time, did we say that?
Victoria Pendergrass: One day at a time, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: All right.
John-Nelson Pope: Go ahead. There was we’ll call it a
Victoria Pendergrass: tie. Keep it simple. First things first.
John-Nelson Pope: First things first.
Victoria Pendergrass: Let go, let God.
Ours. How do you not get that one? Progress, not perfection. Huh. Right? Think, think, think.
Chris Gazdik: Principles before personalities is my favorite one.
Victoria Pendergrass: This too shall pass. So, I guess live and let live.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, that’s that’s totally it. But for
Victoria Pendergrass: the grace of god.
Chris Gazdik: Alright, so that’s enough [01:04:00] and thank you Victoria. We could have gotten more.
Yeah, we’ll do that. You know,
Victoria Pendergrass: that’s an app. There’s a chat. She has an app and that’s celebrate
Chris Gazdik: recovery for sobriety, Neil.
Neil Robinson: Yes, they do. They do
Chris Gazdik: suggest or
Neil Robinson: just abstinence and also,
Chris Gazdik: hey, here, hold on a minute, man. This is important enough.
Neil Robinson: No, it’s okay. You can you can
Chris Gazdik: You think you’re being heard? I don’t know.
Here. Valadon
Neil Robinson: was co founded by, was actually co founded by Bill Wilson’s wife. Did you know that?
Chris Gazdik: I did not. I did not. Willis Wilson
Neil Robinson: was one of the co founders of Valadon. Oh, wow.
Chris Gazdik: So say what you’re saying again. Yeah,
Neil Robinson: so, Cellular Recovery does Recommend abstinence when in the recovery.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I’m wrong. John, you were right, baby.
You got me. It’s okay. You got me, man. Yeah. Well, you got me a lot more. Listen, addiction is a tough thing. It works best. For the most amount of people the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, but reach out to groups programs anything anything [01:05:00] Don’t be alone. Just get yourself sober and and you know, hopefully we’ve taken some of the mystery out of this program That is Alcoholics Anonymous.
I got lots of questions about it. Text us email us Contact us. We’ll talk more in the meantime We’re coming up on the tough time for sobriety given the holiday season So that might’ve been the show development by design. You guys take care. Stay well, John, take us out.
John-Nelson Pope: Listen, remember veteran’s day. So thank a veteran is Monday, right?
And well, thank you. Well, that’s not what I was fishing for. Take care guys. We’ll see you next week. Thank you.