In Episode 304, Gracious Acceptance, we dive into the challenging yet transformative power of accepting what we cannot control—especially when it comes to addiction, relationships, and personal struggles. Our panel unpacks the fine line between acceptance and resignation, exploring how gracious acceptance can bring peace, emotional growth, and stronger connections with others. Through real-life examples, mindfulness strategies, and the wisdom of the serenity prayer, we discuss how to embrace reality without feeling like we’re giving up or compromising our values. We’ll provide expert insights on navigating difficult emotions, fostering empathy, and practicing acceptance in a way that empowers rather than defeats.
Tune in to see Gracious Acceptance Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How do I respond to situations that require me to accept something I don’t agree with or can’t control?
- What does gracious acceptance look like in my relationships with others?
- How can I practice acceptance without feeling like I’m giving up or compromising my values?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #304 Transcription
So got the book Through a Therapist’s Eyes, volume two that is out re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. I am excited about that project. Really want you to go check it out. Look at it. It’s real therapy moments. Each chapter, short, digestible chapters. Call ’em the bathroom books, John.
’cause you can take ’em to the bathroom and enjoy ’em, right?
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, that just brings up all sorts of things to the imagination.
Chris Gazdik: But they’re that short the point. They’re that
John-Nelson Pope: short. They’re like the little vignettes.
Chris Gazdik: Little vignettes, right? And they, they [00:02:00] will definitely trigger thoughtfulness. And the first one was about.
About self. So scribe, click the bell, hit somebody up the head to tell ’em about YouTube Lives Review on Apple Podcasts. It all helps us out. Content 5.0, go Joe, go. Gotta get,
John-Nelson Pope: gotta have a 5.0. Well, I mean, if you don’t, in other words, say, say wonderful things about us because we are wonderful, well listen, we
Chris Gazdik: really do this as a free.
Service to the world, to you. Mm-hmm. And we, we hope that you get some information. We wanna blow up stereotypes and myths, disseminate information about our life’s work and our passion, which is mental health and substance abuse. Your job, if you like, our content is to really help us by doing that subscription and telling people and helping us grow.
We haven’t had a new YouTube live member in couple minutes, in a minute. Yeah. So we, I need to bump that up. I really need you to tell somebody.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. I got a question for you next. What’s up? There’s, we’re not trying to give advice or anything of that sort. [00:03:00] Correct. Okay, so it’s not the delivery of services or psychological or emotional.
Correct. Not counseling services.
Chris Gazdik: I said that today. You did? I did. Okay. I did not the delivery of therapy services, I had a, I had a brain in Parkson. I cut it in. Usually Victoria likes to correct me if I missed that very valuable line to cover ourselves. ’cause we are therapists in our day job. So, but this is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together.
So. John, what do you think about our topic here? Gracious acceptance. What do you think?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I think it’s there. There might even be gracious acceptance could also mean radical acceptance. Could it mean that’s a clinical term? Okay. Yeah. And unconditional acceptance. And yet that doesn’t necessarily mean that you are some sort of doormat or that you’re acquiescing to somebody’s ill behavior.
No, we don’t do that. No, we don’t
Chris Gazdik: subscribe to anything along those lines here. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: [00:04:00] I just wanted to,
Chris Gazdik: you know, it’s interesting, unconditional GR acceptance. I don’t think I’ve ever heard that term before. Mm-hmm. Those two word com combinations. Mm-hmm. It’s usually unconditional love. Mm-hmm. Is there an unconditional acceptance?
I mean, that’s. Unconditional love. Yeah. They seem to be. Yeah. Well it is
John-Nelson Pope: and and it’s a term of art and we said we’re gonna look at it in terms of more of a secular aspect and Yeah. But it’s a theological concept. Oh, is concept. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay.
Chris Gazdik: This whole show, and actually these sort of theme this week that we’ve, I’ve kind of went with was a little bit of a substance abuse theme with regular topics, you know numbing out survivor mode was what we talked about last week.
I forget what we talked about the week before that. Do you know John Neil? He’s gonna look it up and tell me, but it’s misleading diagnosis. Oh, yes, of course. The misleading diagnosis of alcohol use disorder, that. Kind of actually drives me crazy [00:05:00] that, that one, but mm-hmm. That was a good way to start off.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, that was a good discussion.
Chris Gazdik: I think so. Yeah. I think so. I agree. And then the survivor mode is a family dynamic. This actually is the reason at the end of the month or the third. The, the real scoop is the, the reason why I had this is a, is a provocative thought that I have dealt with in therapy. I want to put this out there, different than our, our three questions that I, we just put out there for you to think about.
But, you know, the provocative thought that came up in therapy, should we just accept the person in our lives struggling with addiction? That would be gracious acceptance, unconditional acceptance. Mm-hmm. But that’s a. Kind of a really a double-edged sword, right? You know, in a marriage or in a, in a close relationship.
How do we manage that? And then also, I get questions, John, in therapy, you know, what about my child? You know, people say that I should put ’em out or put ’em on the street. They’re abusing the home, they’re stealing my stuff. It’s, it’s tough. So, you know, [00:06:00] what might the panel say or conclude about how do we manage that with, with kids?
And I’m sure you have a, have pre thoughts about that, John, but we’ll, we’ll sprinkle that in a little bit. Okay. And then circle back around at the end to see, you know, really where do we land on, you know, that’s tough man. Mm-hmm. If your husband or wife’s got addiction, do you stick it out? Mm-hmm. If your kiddo has drug or alcohol addiction.
Do you put ’em out or not? Like how does that work? So a real, real hair bender of, of issues there.
John-Nelson Pope: I think there’s, there has to be some sort of, of a per perseverance to be able to, to stick with someone. But that may not necessarily work out where the person would stay in the house. In other words, you’re, you’re doing, you’re doing something that ultimately would be best for your loved one that is, is going through that and the best thing made for them not to be in the house potentially.
But that’s, yeah. But that it’s not abandoning them.
Chris Gazdik: [00:07:00] Right. Necessarily a mouthful that you just said.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: It’s a lot there
John-Nelson Pope: and I think it’s a fine line and I think that’s why it takes people forever to figure these things out. Years. ’cause yeah,
Chris Gazdik: years, years of pain before either things break down or they make a decision or you know, I had a lady on the show.
The weight of a feather uhhuh, where her, you know, her, her son had heroin addiction issues and, and all, and, and how they had to cope with that. And finally it was, look, you have to leave our house. You’re going to treatment. You don’t have any choice, kind of a scenario. So there’s all kinds of things that ride with that, and it’s, it’s, it’s quite the predicament.
But what are we talking about, John, when we talk about gracious acceptance, what does, what does this even mean to you? Well,
John-Nelson Pope: grace is, is something that is accept is sort of grace is getting something and it’s love that you don’t necessarily deserve. You [00:08:00] don’t necessarily earn. It’s given and it’s given in a sense that there’s no strings involved with it.
And so. Gracious acceptance would be the, the sort of like the, the turn of the coin, the adverse of the coin, which would be if somebody gives you something and it’s, and, and they give it to you as a gift without any strength. Graciously. Graciously, you accept it Graciously Yeah. Without strings. And that you acknowledge that.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And and the thing is, the person that gives the gift doesn’t necessarily expect somebody to, to to, to be thankful for it. But a thankful person would say, okay, thank you for this, this gift. And, and so it’s gracious acceptance.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s, it’s, I love that. Thank you. That, that I, I love the way your brain wraps around that.
’cause I, I think, I think what I was kind of going on is we could, we could talk about acceptance and [00:09:00] we have you, you mentioned a term radical acceptance that’s a part of the DVT program. Mm-hmm. Marshall Lanahan kind of created some of that program. Mm-hmm. And it’s a, these are skills in the therapy world around acceptance that we, we do talk about and whatnot.
Right? Yeah. And, and, but, but the gracious part of it, to me is a relational. Mm-hmm. And we’re thinking, we wanna think about this a little bit in like, in relation to somebody. You are giving that acceptance to them, which is a really hard thing to do. We want to judge, we want to correct, we want to parent our children and, you know, and, and, and help our spouse and, you know, change things for the better.
So in other words, you give
John-Nelson Pope: a person space. Oh yeah, yeah. But it’s a safe space. Right. And I think that’s what, we’re in a therapist right now. We’re in your office. Right. And we have some equipment in here, but it’s a very relaxed place where a person could feel free to be him or herself.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. You know, in, [00:10:00] in, in the book Authentic Self, in the book that I wrote about marriage, I call it the Golden Egg.
The golden Egg is uhhuh that, that, that sacred space between two people, you know, that are married, that you’re, you’re, you’re creating a high level of trust, emotional safety, like that golden egg that you can say anything that you feel you need to, or, or want to say like that’s. Boy, it’s, it’s such a, your face just changed.
What, what happened? Well,
John-Nelson Pope: it is just that you feel so loved that you don’t have to put on airs. You can be your authentic self. Right. Your vulnerable self. Yeah. And know that that person’s not going to, to put demands on you that or, or their projection of their stuff onto you. They’re accepting you.
Right. Right. You know,
Chris Gazdik: it’s, it’s, it’s really a hard thing, I feel like John, to be in. And then when you get in a space to preserve that golden egg, I mean, it can [00:11:00] easily be cracked.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: You know, and we have to get another egg and build it. I mean, that’s, well,
John-Nelson Pope: and that’s the thing is, is it’s a process.
Mm-hmm. Because I think, I think the more you do it or more that you live it authentically, or you be it, or whatever word you want to use or term is that you would need to be able to do that more and more. But there are gonna be times when when it’s challenge. It’s challenge. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: You did what last week, John?
You know, when Joy calls you, John Nelson, it’s it’s being challenged, isn’t it? I like the time that
John-Nelson Pope: she, she followed me out of the house and she just put her hands right onto the foot of the car.
Chris Gazdik: Woo. I never, I You have said that one other time on the show, brother. Yeah. And I, I have never forgotten that.
Well, because I just don’t, I see you and Joy as, I mean, you’re older now. You’ve been married for a super long time. Your relationship is amazing, at least from the outside looking when we
John-Nelson Pope: weren’t super old. [00:12:00] Right. So she’s not old and she’s much younger than I. And, but
Chris Gazdik: you know, that was, I just, you know, joy and John in conflict with her, like stopping the car from moving was this, I am
John-Nelson Pope: very fortunate if anybody’s told me it taught me anything about gracious acceptance.
Yeah. Acceptance is joy. Yeah. And yeah, she’s modeled it quite well.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. You’ve been able to get to that golden egg space, Uhhuh. Yeah. But then you get out of it, don’t you? Oh yeah. You have to get back in it and out of it. It’s like, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a
John-Nelson Pope: constant checks and balances. Right. And you wanna try to, you wanna make that your equilibrium in your relationship if you can, but.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, life
John-Nelson Pope: happens.
Chris Gazdik: So the difference between acceptance and resignation is something to think about when we’re thinking about what are we talking about? ’cause people will be resigned into a situation as opposed to truly being able to be in a place of acceptance. I I I’ve got a chapter in my book somewhere.
Oh yeah. There [00:13:00] it is. Accepting things in a part is a part of your emotional growth. It’s chapter 11. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I love the name of that chapter and to read through that chapter That’s in the first book, not the second one. And it, it, it has a do and don’t, as all my chapters do, do accept limitation events and characteristics, don’t resist and fight against what is true.
And then I’ll have an example of that later on. But I mean, when you, when you try to get into a place of acceptance, you’re resisting our natural tendency to fight something. Mm-hmm. And. That’s, that’s different than just like being resigned. You just sort of, oh, I, I guess a doctor described I have depression, so I’m resigned to this diagnosis, and that’s just what I’m gonna experience.
John-Nelson Pope: I’ll always be like this, one of my favorite
Chris Gazdik: characters in Winnie the Pooh.
John-Nelson Pope: Right? Your, I guess I’ll just go eat words. He’s
Chris Gazdik: ty terribly. [00:14:00] Ty ty. Yeah. Ty is a diagnostic word that’s like, kinda like depression, just not as bad low, but just
John-Nelson Pope: Debbie Downer on Saturday in that line did
Chris Gazdik: Stays Debbie down. So while both acceptance and resignation involve acknowledging the situation you, you’re doing an active step with accepting or proactive step of acknowledging and embracing that reality while resignation, you’re just passive.
Uhhuh, this is gonna happen to me. Helpless, hopeless. Right. Can’t do anything about it. And that’s the
John-Nelson Pope: difference I think, in terms of, of, of this radical acceptance or this gracious acceptance, is that it’s has hope in it. It’s not helplessness, it’s hope, hopefulness that there will be this sort of interaction and, and growth that would take place.
So it’s an organic thing.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. So
John-Nelson Pope: it’s life affirming.
Chris Gazdik: Do you ever quote the Serenity Prayer?
John-Nelson Pope: Yes. Do you wanna do that right now?
Chris Gazdik: I just, I [00:15:00] don’t think this, like this whole topic when we talk about dealing with accepting your reality and, you know, not being a doormat, like you were saying before, Uhhuh, like, I do not, I cannot stand, you know, doormat passive personality.
Situations like you are in therapy with me. We’re not going to be advocating for anything that’s ever at all passive.
John-Nelson Pope: But I think the Serenity prayer does stimulate people, the courage to change the things I can. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s such, it’s such
Chris Gazdik: a, a three lines of just power if you ask me, because we also don’t wanna get.
You know, aggressive. Mm-hmm. I mean, I’m not gonna be telling people to go yelling and, you know, go throw down, you know, throw hands to get what you want or whatever. Mm-hmm. It’s, but the Serenity prayer, when we talk about accepting things and not being in resignation, it’s just such a wonderful balance.
The serenity to accept the things that I [00:16:00] cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Those are the three lines in the serenity
John-Nelson Pope: plan. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. Now here’s a question. So that’s being in the now. Okay. And the here and now.
And that would go with mindfulness. Right. But. There’s another thing, there’s another aspect of it. Would you mind if I, you’re intriguing me. Okay. And I’m going to take it away from the religious aspect of it. Okay. Right. Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace. Taking the world as it is, not as I would have it.
Trusting that all things will be made right. And that I may be reasonably happy in this life. And supremely happy forever.
Chris Gazdik: You. Well, you know, I, I love that. I just watched a movie last night, spaceman.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. You,
Chris Gazdik: you ever seen Spaceman?
John-Nelson Pope: Who’s in that?
Chris Gazdik: It was a really well done what’s his name? Just brain farting.
Who, who, [00:17:00] who was Happy Gilmore oh, Adam Sandler and Adam. It was a really well done Adam Sandler movie where he’s Oh, that’s the exception. No, come on. You don’t
John-Nelson Pope: like Adam Sandler. Yes, sir. Do sing the Hanukkah song.
Chris Gazdik: The Hanukkah song. Song.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. Adam
Chris Gazdik: Sandler. I
John-Nelson Pope: like Adam Sandler. I really do. I think he has good values.
Well, he has, well
Chris Gazdik: he’s, he had a different role in this movie, Uhhuh. And so the role in this movie was, he was an astronaut Uhhuh and it was a single person Mission Uhhuh. And he was going to, to to Japan. He was going to Jupiter. Jupiter where there was a mysterious cloud that was Uhhuh had shown up for the last, you know, few years.
And we were trying to research what’s going on out there on the way. He gets a ow away on the, the, the, the, the spaceship uhhuh and it’s like this alien crawley creature and they really form a bond that is so strong. And it was so. Emotionally powerful. The theme in the movie is he was really shut [00:18:00] down, avoidant our last show.
Right. He was every bit of numbed out to his wife, and his wife was leaving. Well,
John-Nelson Pope: and and, and it makes sense, doesn’t it? Because he’s avoiding life. He’s going all the way to Jupiter. Literally. Literally.
Chris Gazdik: Right? And so this alien going out of this world was so like, read the things that you said again with Serenity prayer.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace. Taking the world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that all things will be made right if I surrender. That I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy in the next.
Chris Gazdik: So in the movie, the Alien Creature, they developed a name for him called Ash.
Mm-hmm. Haes, something like that. Not Hamas. Ham, not Hamas, Hames, we’ll call it Hamus. Anyway, we’ll call him. HHH was was the alien. And he made, he was so soothing, Uhhuh to Adam, [00:19:00] but he was trying to help Adam understand and give him graciousness. ’cause he’s been studying the humans, basically Uhhuh, he called ’em skinny humans.
Skinny human. Do you think about da, da da da da. And he was like, you know what though? H Homa, Hamas was, or Homans was very clear that the universe is exactly the way that it’s supposed to be. Mm-hmm. And you just accept the universe as it is. Mm-hmm. And if you do that, you go along with everything that’s going on around you, and you, you go with the grain, you go with the flow.
Yeah. Okay. You have peace. But he was fighting, you see? And he was, and he was bringing misery onto himself, and he was numbing out, shutting down, struggling with such isolation,
John-Nelson Pope: therapeutic change. How does that happen?
Chris Gazdik: Go ahead.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. Well, here’s my question. I mean, my thought about this is that you, you intentionally see the world that you are not the one that’s ultimately in control, that you accept of the facts.
That there’s things [00:20:00] you, you cannot change in your life.
Chris Gazdik: Yep.
John-Nelson Pope: And you change your attitude. So things do change. You do change, but your environment doesn’t necessarily change. And so you could, you could have a sense of freedom in, I mean, there’s a, there’s a sense of freedom even in the in the worst of circumstances.
Chris Gazdik: It’s just interesting, John, the way I, I got a little bit of a feeling there as I was just listening to you. And, and, and I feel compelled. This is why I land on the Serenity Prayer Uhhuh. Yeah. Because when we start talking about things that you, you can’t change and things that you have to just accept. I, there’s a little piece of me that just bugs out.
Yeah. That’s why I love the lines serenity. Mm-hmm. God, what a beautiful word. To accept the things that you can’t change. But, but, but I love that courage. Courage. The
John-Nelson Pope: courage to change the things you can
Chris Gazdik: in your personality, in person, in your circumstances, in your environment, in your community, in your family, in your [00:21:00] church, in your cynical in
John-Nelson Pope: society.
Civil rights, you know, to be able to do all of those things that you need to do, one needs to do and, and seek that. But also realize the world’s sometimes gonna push back really hard on you. But that doesn’t necessarily need to take away your serenity. Earpiece
Chris Gazdik: and the wisdom to know which thing mm-hmm.
At this moment is the thing. Mm-hmm. Something that you have to accept or something that you have to cha change Uhhuh, it’s so dynamic. Right. You know, you know what I’m saying? Yeah. Yeah. I just. I don’t know. I was listening. Yeah. It, I, the Serenity Prayer to me just locks it all over place. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: It’s Brian Hode er is the one that wrote it.
Mm-hmm. And you know, AA uses it and all the, the,
Chris Gazdik: Oh, from day one, right. It is a major part of recovery in the substance abuse community. Mm-hmm. And probably one of the reasons why I think my brain is influenced in working with recovery issues mm-hmm. To even do a combination. Mm-hmm. Like gracious acceptance.
’cause I [00:22:00] think that that does pull into, you know, again, part of our primary questions, you know, how do we manage your spouse who has addiction? Or how do we manage a, a, a child who has addiction and, and, and, and be able to graciously accept them. I mean, it’s, it’s, it really is a hell of a dynamic. Let’s move on a little bit to how, how do, how do we, how do we have this.
Piece of acceptance in mental health, like, you know, the impact of acceptance on therapy. Like, you know, do you know much about a CT therapy?
John-Nelson Pope: I’ve been studying it up. Have you been studying up, learning up on it? Huh? I have. I have. I, I want you to go ahead and teach. Teach me more about it. I know about fear.
Chris Gazdik: If you’ve been studying, you probably got more than me ’cause it’s a little bit of a new, but yeah, basically we want to increase psychological flexibility. Mm-hmm. Which involves accepting the thoughts and feelings that you have, and then really combining mindfulness and being present while then taking actions aligned with your [00:23:00] values rather than trying to control or avoid difficult experiences is, that’s a summary of a CT.
I mean, I, I think it’s a natural progression from. The Ccbt. Mm-hmm. Cognitive behavioral therapy. And it’s in the wheel. It’s
John-Nelson Pope: in the, in the family. They
Chris Gazdik: really are, aren’t they?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: The wheelhouse. I like that word. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Wheelhouse. But, ’cause I’m think in terms of this as, as a, an, an ancillary, I’m not a big, big a CT person, but I’m not, again, it, I’m, I’m for it.
I’m just, it’s just not something that, that I grew up with in, in my training. You got a little
Chris Gazdik: West Virginian, didn’t you? Yeah. I like the, I’m not, again, it, yeah. Yeah. That’s, that was awesome. I know you spent some time in my state.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, I did. I did. It’s right here. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I, you know, a CT is cool. I mean, I, I added it in here because it, it seems like, you know, it has some primary [00:24:00] pieces though that, that drive really at, you know, the primary issue of acceptance.
It
John-Nelson Pope: does, but it’s a serenity prayer in itself because it accepts your thoughts and emotions. So grant me this serenity, right? Yeah. Choose. Choose the things you can change with courage. With courage. Didn’t take action. You
Chris Gazdik: know what, I didn’t think
John-Nelson Pope: about
Chris Gazdik: that, but you’re totally on
John-Nelson Pope: point. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: I think that’s what I’m saying.
Like the a CT stuff seems sort of natural to me. And this is not a test
John-Nelson Pope: that high school students dread. What do you mean? The a CT? Oh,
Chris Gazdik: you know this, this, you got dad jokes, John. Oh, you got dad jokes.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m I’m a dad.
Chris Gazdik: You are a dad. I’m a granddad. You are a granddad as well. So this idea of acceptance and therapy, do you use it much Radical acceptance acceptance therapy BI
John-Nelson Pope: do.
Chris Gazdik: I, because I feel like motivational interviewing is kind of in that same Yeah, it is.
John-Nelson Pope: It is. Um, the, the problem and the criticism for a CT, and I don’t, [00:25:00] and this is the, I’m gonna walk out on it, is all right. That people think of it as the be all, end all. It’s, it was and of course EMDR is, is is the new, is the new thing that people are into.
It’s useful. It’s useful, it’s a tool. It’s, but it’s not salvation.
Chris Gazdik: Meaning a CT is not the end all be all
John-Nelson Pope: right. Okay. Right. And, and I don’t think it ever was intended to be that way. No.
Chris Gazdik: I listen, all therapy modalities, uhhuh to me are just that uhhuh a little bit of a model little bit of a framework to Right.
If
John-Nelson Pope: it works. Mm-hmm. It works if you work it just like they say in a aa it’s a phrase, it works if
Chris Gazdik: you work it.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. So if, if this is the modality for me, existentialism works okay. But I don’t have a lot of my clients that groove on that.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. No, it’s, it’s a weird sort of weird stuff in therapy. Yeah, [00:26:00] I agree.
But it’s cool stuff. I agree. Uhhuh, gestalt’s similar uhhuh to, to, to me in that way. Right. Gestalt therapy, I’D and
John-Nelson Pope: I have used Gestalt techniques like the empty chair. Mm-hmm. Very effectively. But I am not a gestalt. Yeah. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: same, same deal. I, you have to be with somebody and, and honestly, you know, therapists out there, you know, when we get, you know, compassion fatigue is what we call it now or what the new phrase is, I don’t know.
Burnout we used to call it. Mm-hmm. Having gracious acceptance for your clients is tough sometimes. Mm-hmm. You have to, we have to learn to do
John-Nelson Pope: that if purposeful, if you hear the same thing. This is the thing, and this is where I think it needs to be in families and families where there’s dysfunction and let’s say you have a person that is the non-anxious presence in a family.
Okay. Who are those people? Okay. I think there’s always Neil. Neil might be that guy. Neil is that guy. He smiles, he [00:27:00] shakes his head. Everybody, not every family has any of that going on. Yeah. No. But there has to be someone in someone’s life that is the non-anxious presence. That’s not, and that a person that.
Is where that they can go and just have that sense that they will always be accepted. But, but I have, like with clients, they say over and over and over again, the same old thing over and over, and you challenge them. You don’t, you know, they get stuck in that rut. And how do you encourage, how do you not give up on them?
And the thing is, is that there’s, there, there is a, a form of therapy that says never give up. Never give up with your client. Always have faith. Yeah. That, that client will do, do well.
Chris Gazdik: And sometimes, you know, I’ll tell my couples this for sure. John, [00:28:00] just listening to you took me to many couples sessions where I don’t have any problems saying, look, I, you know, you’re both here.
You clearly have some interest in this being mm-hmm. In a better place than it is, and whether you have hope about that or not, I can, I will contain that for you for a little while. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I will have hope for you. Boy, I like
John-Nelson Pope: how that’s said, how you say that, right?
Chris Gazdik: So, so that I will hold that place at least for a time, you know, five sessions or whatever, so that we can get, you know, going into a different direction and, and, and y’all take it.
John-Nelson Pope: I think in terms of Sam Gaji in Lord of the Rings, I’m, I’m geeking out. Go with the brother. Okay. He picks up Frodo who carries the ring, and he picks up Frodo during that time. And he, Sam and Frodo carrying that so powerful, powerful, powerful example of friendship. Yeah. You. When you’re in that sacred moment with the golden egg into the ring.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. You, you [00:29:00] basically are carrying that couple. Yeah. Okay. You can, yeah, you can, but you’re not, you’re not at the same time doing their work. No. They’re having
Chris Gazdik: no we, yeah. Boundary very important that this is your life, your thing, but it’s just you, you know, when, when, when your client or even individually is like, you know, look, I, I don’t have any hope anymore.
I am so burnt out and done with life. Like, you know, like mm-hmm. You, you can contain, you know, some of that and, and be with mm-hmm. Somebody and, and, and, and be a hope generator. Yeah, exactly. It’s a powerful thing to try to get in with somebody where you create. Okay. So anyway, back to back to the idea of the role of acceptance.
You know, I mentioned chapter 11. I have an example John, of, of that’s not
John-Nelson Pope: bankruptcy.
Chris Gazdik: No, no. Chapter
John-Nelson Pope: 11 bankruptcy? No. No. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Here, I thought you were going to William Covey’s the emotional checking account. Uhhuh, I have a whole influence, a whole issue with [00:30:00] that. No, this is, you know, I thought it was a good example of real life living example of like what some consequences can be when you, you’re not in a place of acceptance when you get information Uhhuh.
Yeah. So I was in high school, John Uhhuh, cute girl. Angie was her name.
John-Nelson Pope: Angie. That’s when that song came out. Angie,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. Man, I had the hots for Angie. I thought she was cute. I wanted to go out on a date where they kind of got a date. We got a Hangout thing where you got that Rolling Stone song
John-Nelson Pope: going out?
Yeah. What? Rolling Stone song called Angie.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, well this wasn’t her. Okay. This was a different, Angie, I can’t, can’t take credit there. Okay. Anyway, so I went to this place that I worked. I. It was a really cool night. We were hanging out at the, the ski lodge in Ogleby. Right.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, okay. I know where that is.
I actually
Chris Gazdik: found, it’s such a kid thing. I actually found a necklace and, and gave that to her that night. I did. God, you were Oh man. Terrible. [00:31:00] And they
John-Nelson Pope: called it puppy love
Chris Gazdik: and they called it. Yeah. And so it was fun night. I, I don’t even know what we were doing hanging out. We were just walking around and, and all, and John, I got the friendship speech.
Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Have you ever got the friendship speech? Oh, how many times have you gotten the friendships speech?
John-Nelson Pope: Numerous times.
Chris Gazdik: It’s so rough. I always,
John-Nelson Pope: I always, I want you to do my wedding. I want you to be, I, I I want you to marry me. Oh, no. Be in the, yeah. And, and what they meant was for me to do, to do the wedding.
Do the wedding. Yeah. Oh man.
Chris Gazdik: And you’re interested in it? Yeah. Yeah. So I got the friendship speech and needless to say, I wasn’t exactly in the acceptance mode. That particular night definitely pissed me off or I got frustrated or sad or whatever. I was sure I was just, you know, disappointed in my fields as the kids say nowadays.
And so I drove her home [00:32:00] and dropped her off. And this was later at night. Now moving towards the nighttime and John, we’re in, we’re in the hills of West Virginia, so this sucker was, it was snowing. Oh. Oh, it was snowing. Good.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. You got that a lake effect snow?
Chris Gazdik: Well, not quite the lake we were just wheeling Is is down by Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania is where I, I was born and raised, but, but it was, it was treacherous.
Yeah. But I don’t care ’cause I enjoy driving in it. But now I’m pissed now, now I’m like all emotional and whatever. I’m like, did you have like snow
John-Nelson Pope: fences and where you lived?
Chris Gazdik: Snow fence. No, it wasn’t drifts and stuff. We,
John-Nelson Pope: where I lived in West Virginia, they had snow drifts. Snow fences.
Chris Gazdik: Oh really? Yeah. Well, we, I mean you were down by the ski resorts and stuff.
Yeah. Anyway, what I, what I did was I driving, I didn’t mean driving interrupt you. Okay. So I’m driving and I come around a, a band and it’s like downhill around a bend. So you have to uhhuh turn left and my speed was too much and did a little, [00:33:00] did a little fish tail. Fish tail, a little corrected measure to overcorrect overcorrect and just lost it.
360, oh my gosh. Back end to down at pretty big steep hill and just heard silence.
John-Nelson Pope: Wow.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I was like, what do I do now? Like, that’s weird. I climbed up the bank. It was at nighttime. The guy gave me a ride home, thankfully. So I, I caught a, caught a, caught a hitch and got home. Told my mom I’m might have. Had my car go off the side of the road.
She tripped out because we went there the next day to get the thing towed or whatever. John, it was a bank like that. It was like, you know, just barely missed a big tree. At least you weren’t on
John-Nelson Pope: a,
Chris Gazdik: I was okay. I had a big hole in my car. It hit a fence post and knocked it out. I don’t know, man. It was it was, the angel was on my shoulder that particular night and it was just not paying attention just in my fields.
Emotional sad for being, you know, rejected and [00:34:00] whatever. Yeah. So you overreacted Totally was not in acceptance. Uhhuh, I was fighting it. Fighting it literally in my head on the way home. And when you are in that state of mind, like what kind of poor decisions John, do we make when we’re fighting against the realities impulse in our life?
John-Nelson Pope: The, I have, but we have, both of us have clients and so does Victoria. We have clients that. Are much older and than teenage years and they still act and are reactive. And they make those act like teenagers. Teenagers, right? Yeah. And, and you kind of expect a teenager to do it. They’re just learning. I a teenager, they’re, they, they’ve just gotten their big Harley motorcycle, which is puberty, adolescence, and they don’t know how to handle it.
Chris Gazdik: Well, to be careful, all the, all the bike riders are gonna be emailing us, John. Well, there’s nothing.
John-Nelson Pope: No. It takes a real man or a woman to, to, to ride a [00:35:00] hog
Chris Gazdik: or a ho
John-Nelson Pope: or a gold wing. Oh, yeah,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, you know, I, I think that there’s, there’s, there’s just a lot to all of that and, and, and, you know, our emotions, whether we’re.
You know, I’ve been talking with a few different people that are older. You’d call ’em elderly in, in, in, in, in my caseload right now. And, you know, I’ve made the comments to both of ’em, seasoned John, for they’re well seasoned in life. And, you know, for, for a while now, I’ve been kind of amazed at whatever stage of life that you’re in, call it the crush that I just described with Angie.
You know, Angie, if you ever listened to this, it was fine. You did what you need to do. It was just a learning experience for me. But I, you know, Chris, who, what’s that? Chris? Who? Chris, yeah. Be careful. Facebook’s out there. You know, whether it’s a high school crush like I had. Or your, your, your first love lost in college, or [00:36:00] you, you’re, you’re 60 years married and you become a widow or a widow.
You know, those emotions that you feel are really, really the same Yeah. Level the same. Like our bodies change, but the way that we feel doesn’t, right. Which is why we can replicate the problems that we have over and over again for a lifetime, but we can also change them. But I’m just saying, when you go through a crush like that, it, it hurts, it’s hard.
So, of course we act like teenagers, children. Mm-hmm. You know, our clients that are all grown up.
John-Nelson Pope: They’re still feeling well. So when somebody, let’s say they, they find love again, later in life, let’s say they’re widowed or there’s an unfortunate divorce, or, or, or in some cases, a fortunate divorce because the life was so difficult, they, and they feel like they can’t ever have life again.
And they meet somebody and they are light as a feather. They are joy, [00:37:00] joyful, joyful. They have a new leash on life and they fall in love again. Yeah. And they have all the, the all the feelings. All the feelings. Mm-hmm. All the femoral loans and all that going. Just
Chris Gazdik: does this still
John-Nelson Pope: happen when we’re older?
I hope. Well, I’m, I’m recalling it. So I guess that’s yes. Is the answer. So yes, a hundred percent. Yes. Very much. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: This is why people have affairs, John Uhhuh. Really? Right? This is why people feel like, oh, we’ve fallen out of love, and because they don’t have the pheromones or whatever, and they meet somebody new.
It’s like, oh, well, you’re supposed to be the one I’m with. You’re my soul mate. It must been, you know, or these thoughts. It’s like, it, it, it’s emotions.
John-Nelson Pope: I, I met a, a woman from Texas when I was at seminary, and she was going to seminary at the same time. And I won’t say her name, but I just, I fell so in love with her.
Mm. Just, I, even just the, even that her or infatuated with her Infa, well, it was infatuation. Yeah. Her [00:38:00] phons, phons or whatever they call it. Pheromones. Pheromones. I actually was You loved them. I loved them. When. She broke up with me about two weeks later.
Chris Gazdik: See, see on YouTube, everybody, you gotta see John’s face right now.
Go to YouTube. Look, two weeks later
John-Nelson Pope: I’m down in and I’m heartbroken. I’m in the stacks of the, of the library? No. Oh no. IS academia. I smell, I have that, her odor. I smell it. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. And I go to the, to a, a cart, because that was my job. I had to put books back in the library, in the stacks. And she had checked the book out.
It was her odor. Oh, wow. It was a tissue in there.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, a tissue was in the book. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Got you. Yeah. That’s a real thing. It’s a real thing.
Chris Gazdik: Mm-hmm. It affects us.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m smelling it
Chris Gazdik: now. You can even smell it now. And
John-Nelson Pope: I’m so lucky. Oh man. Wow. That’s not to,
Chris Gazdik: that is, that is an [00:39:00] experience. It would’ve been a
John-Nelson Pope: disaster for her.
It would’ve been a,
Chris Gazdik: it would not have been a disaster for her. Yeah. It’s just these are, yeah. I mean that’s, that is living in the moment and being in the moment. It can be so powerful. And thank you, John. You just relived a moment that, you know, watching you relive that. You saw
John-Nelson Pope: me go.
Chris Gazdik: Oh yeah. You went, you were there.
Yeah, I was there. I said, look at YouTube, his face, like, you know, was I at the crushed spa face with Angie? Yes, you were. I, I did.
John-Nelson Pope: I saw those sad puppy doll guys. Oh, man. Coming up, crawling, clawing his way up on the snowbank.
Chris Gazdik: Oh,
John-Nelson Pope: yeah. Yeah. And now chasing and defeated. Crushed.
Chris Gazdik: Okay, I’m gonna come back to the world now.
John, bring me back here. The balance between accepting external circumstances and taking positive steps to change. This is what we’re after. This is what we’re trying to engage with. So again, we have to talk about the Serenity prayer when we’re [00:40:00] talking about taking these kind of steps. It’s just such great courage, such great power that’s in, in these things.
We try to control the things that we can control. So, acceptance versus last week’s topic, instead of falling into what was the word just a little bit ago? Re resignation. Resignation. What about acceptance versus last week’s topic? Avoidance. Avoidance. Yeah. Right. I mean, we don’t like to sit in something that we’re fighting against, right?
And so I think that that is an impetus towards last week’s topic where people are just avoiding at all costs. Mm-hmm. That which is, which is uncomfortable. Right, right, right.
John-Nelson Pope: You know, I was just thinking, I’ve had a couple of my clients said that they didn’t do dry January and, but they’re doing dry lint.
Oh,
Chris Gazdik: really?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah. So in other words [00:41:00] they’re, they are abstaining or lessening the amount of alcohol that they’re drinking. Yeah. Oh, could we
Chris Gazdik: lessen it instead of not drink it?
John-Nelson Pope: Is that, is that what we can do, John? Well, that’s what they say. That’s what they say. Neil,
Chris Gazdik: Neil just gave a big snort and he is looking at me very knowingly.
Yes. I, I’ll come clean John. I’m one of these one of these people that’s giving up alcohol for Lent. Did you know that? And no, I didn’t not. Yeah, I’m playing that game. I figured it was, was a good thing for me to do.
John-Nelson Pope: It’s not just you.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Evidently. So,
John-Nelson Pope: evidently there’s something going on. Yeah. I go, I don’t know, it’s in the air tonight.
Chris Gazdik: Well, that’s a song.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Phil Collins. I know that song. Phil Collins. Yeah. Miami Vice is, when I was introduced to it.
Chris Gazdik: I’m gonna say it was between me and my creator. Yeah. That was what, that’s what happened to me. ’cause I’m not Catholic. I don’t, I I’ve reformed Catholics is what I, what I like to say. You know, I’ve lost the Catholic guilt.
I’m, I’m not, you know, reformed, but, but I just felt like I was called, that was what I was supposed to do. So I’m not real happy about it actually. I’m [00:42:00] not enjoying that, but it’s good. Good and good for me. Well, it’s, it’s letting go of control,
John-Nelson Pope: John. Yeah. Just being so, well, I, I, I gave up because I, I would have like a little glass of, of red wine with my meals, and I’ve gave that up because it because of my condition that I have right now, which is a neurological aspect of it.
Yeah. And I needed to, and, and my neurologist said, you need to just give it up, so, okay. Yeah. And I haven’t missed it, you know, so haven’t missed it for six months. Yeah. Oh, that’s been a, that’s been a little while then. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you’re getting along. Yeah. Getting along. Yeah. My hands don’t shake or anything like that, so.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. How do you help people get into a place, John of. Action when they have been in and oftentimes come to us in an initial session. [00:43:00] Just a major stuck spot, you know? Mm-hmm. People that are stuck. I have a whole day conference that I, I I, I present on, you know, about stuck spots. You know, like it’s a real nasty experience that somebody gets into, isn’t it?
John-Nelson Pope: So are you talking about CBT or REBT, where you would actually go through and identify stuck spot, right. And then you would work out strategies Yeah. To, to overcome them, essentially. Yeah. And I think part of it is, is that I think it’s. It, it’s unrealistic to think that you’re going to un undo that stuck spot the first time.
Oh, a hundred percent isn’t
Chris Gazdik: not a one session deal. Oftentimes when people are stuck, they’ve been stuck and they’re coming to you at last resort ’cause they’ve been stuck for a long time. Many months, years more, yeah. Lifetime up until that point. And it’s hard to, at times, to see,
John-Nelson Pope: and it’s hard to, to see outside that worldview basically, which gives you a, [00:44:00] it puts blinders on you or, or goggles.
Mm-hmm. You can’t really see
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Outside of yourself you had. And to step outside of that, I think it’s tough. It’s tough. Yeah. But that’s exactly what writing it down does. Sometimes.
Chris Gazdik: So writing it down, so, okay, let’s, let’s, let’s transition and go there. Yeah. Writing it down and, you know, when you’re, when you’re in gr a state of gracious acceptance in action, what does that look like?
Getting out of stuck spots, what does that look like? Yeah. With acknowledging that there’s, there is an issue mm-hmm.
John-Nelson Pope: To do that, to, to see it. The other is to say, okay a concept of perseverance and that you are in a, a safe space, that nobody’s gonna judge you. Because if you still are in that stuck space, you, you just, you keep trying and you do it, you know, eventually
Chris Gazdik: do what
John-Nelson Pope: ev eventually [00:45:00] get out of that stuck space.
Well, hopefully you rewrite it. Yeah. Or there’s a point where you say, okay, I can’t, I can’t do anything about this.
Chris Gazdik: And accept it. And accept
John-Nelson Pope: it. Yeah. And then ironically, that’s when things change. I don’t know. Yeah, I, I guess that’s
Chris Gazdik: right. Go, go ahead, go.
John-Nelson Pope: No, I want you to go there, because that’s exactly right.
The paradox. It’s the, yeah, it’s the one hand clapping in the,
Chris Gazdik: in the, in the air. It really is a paradox that a lot of times we find, you know, in, in working with people, you know, listen guys, you know, you feel like you’re falling into a trap and gonna be stuck if you, you know, lose your ability to make change or just accept something.
But the, the, the paradox, which is something that happens that shouldn’t be able to happen, you know, when you really accept something and get at peace with it. That’s actually something that you do that changes mm-hmm. That situation.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. ’cause you [00:46:00] are doing something. You’re actually doing something.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. But instead of trying to do an external thing, let’s say I’m gonna stop drinking. Yeah. I’m gonna, and I’m just gonna have, I’m gonna rely on my willpower, which is actually an other, other thing.
Chris Gazdik: Or I’m gonna move to another town. I move to another town, change the thing that I’m using from alcohol to weed or from, well, I
John-Nelson Pope: say the things people domestic abusers, people that are victims, they’re not, they’re not perpetrators, but they, they might tend to go back to the same type of person over and over again.
Mm-hmm. That they start to see a pattern. They have to change that. Right. And they have to accept that that’s something inside of them that they have to change.
Chris Gazdik: And as step number one, I accepted that my life had become unmanageable as mm-hmm. The, mm-hmm. First key to being able to make anything happen in way of change.
Mm-hmm. Which the substance abuse theme, it’s a major change, [00:47:00] John, you know, as well as I do, it’s changing everything about your life. You can’t really do that until you accept in the beginning that it’s there. Yeah. So
John-Nelson Pope: it’s one of the reasons why it’s a paradox. They have re rehabilitation drug and alcohol rehab, is that they go to kind of remote places that they, they change the paradigm or their situation, and yet they, they see that, you know, they have brought themselves there, but they don’t have the place where they don’t necessarily have to go back to the same set of friends or that were not really their friends that would keep them.
Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, yeah. Of course we have to add mindfulness. We can’t forget mindfulness in this conversation. Yeah. Of, you know. What’s gracious acceptance in in practice? Yeah. How’s that relate to mindfulness?
John-Nelson Pope: If you wish you were somewhere else and you [00:48:00] are, then you can’t actually be in the now and accept yourself for who you are in the here and now. So if you’re always wondering if I just move somewhere, if I go somewhere else, you’re not, you are not attending to your needs now. Does that make sense? A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And that’s painful. Yeah, it is. And arguably self-inflicted uhhuh. So self-inflicted pain point by doing what? W by, by, by doing what you described not to do, like being somewhere else and not being mindful in the moment. Yeah. Being,
John-Nelson Pope: being out there and saying, I was just playing off. You playing.
Yeah. In other words, you, you, you project, if I’m only, if I only do this, this, and this, I’ll be better. I have, I have had a number of clients that deal with serious mental illness or other issues, and they are, they’re actually, [00:49:00] well, if I just do this, then all my problems will go away. That doesn’t, you, you still will have yourself in the end, and so you have to be, you have to accept yourself.
So it’s a radical self-acceptance of yourself.
Chris Gazdik: Mm-hmm. Okay. And just to throw another piece at it, to frame us up with the, this thing that we are gonna get back to real quick here in a moment, the primary provocative question, you know, people wanna say, well, when you’re dealing with your kid, you just give corporal punishment.
It’s as simple as that. But you miss so much of the ins and outs of all that’s going on emotionally. You’re missing the kid, the kid itself. Right. Itself, themselves. Themselves. You know,
John-Nelson Pope: well, you know, the
Chris Gazdik: Romans and the Greeks, they, they called them. It’s, they were kids were, it’s, yeah. You know, and, and if you think about that, you just take that a step further.
Like, you know, accepting a kid and accepting them doesn’t necessarily mean it’s okay, whatever they do. You know, Neil and I go back and forth with that, with the love and logic strategy. Which people loved that show. [00:50:00] Neil, I don’t know if you noticed that, by the way, did you catch that? Oh yeah. There were, people were absolutely all over that, that particular show.
I think it’s ’cause we made it spicy. Neil uhoh. Yeah, we had his, he, he, he just, yeah, he has, you have to listen to that episode. Several back. But you know, when you’re dealing with your kid, you have to be in that moment with them accepting them. But it doesn’t mean everything that they do is okay.
So when they have a major problem with alcohol, we’ll talk about. Right. So what else do we need to summarize? Let’s, let’s. Well, I think we hit that enough. I, I, I let, let’s go back to those original things, John, and see where you and I land. Okay. You know, should we just accept the person in our lives struggling with addiction?
How do we process this? All this talk about gracious acceptance, but yet this spouse of yours is wrecking your life. Right? They’re blacking out. They are, you know, so nasty in their tone, in, in fighting with you. It’s Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. So the most loving
John-Nelson Pope: thing you could possibly do [00:51:00] is, is erect some develop some boundaries.
And boundaries aren’t rigid. They’re, they’re flexible. And to be able to do that and say co-dependent people have a hard time doing that, John. Yeah, they do. They do.
Chris Gazdik: They really do. Yeah, go ahead further though.
John-Nelson Pope: No, no, I’m, I’m, I was just trying to say, should we just accept the person? I think should we accept the person in our lives struggling with addiction?
I would say yes. Should we just, no. Okay. Oh, so we should accept them. We should, should just accept them. We accept, I love what you’re doing with that essential nature of their personhood, but not their, their all, their, their garash or all their vitriol vitriol, their hatred or, or their anger or their self-loathing dysfunction.
[00:52:00] Alcoholism
Chris Gazdik: is so. Overwhelming to a family system. So it’s really a balance. Yeah, it is.
John-Nelson Pope: And I think that’s why a healthy, well-balanced family is therapy would be entering into to therapy or some sort of counseling situation that could be long term. And you do it even if you’re, and say, okay, which might eventually lead to the family in order to preserve its health that that other person might leave the person that is his his your spouse.
His spouse, yeah, the spouse. And where do they go? I think that’s part of it would be give them every opportunity to to go for therapy, to go for rehabilitation, to go to recovery, to enter into this. And but you can’t. Take away the person’s civil rights, at least in, in this [00:53:00] society or this culture.
You
Chris Gazdik: know, here’s the thing, I I, I have oftentimes worked with people that have stuck with their partner. And, and it’s, it’s almost kind of like, it’s one of these rare situations, John, where I imagine you and I could agree, you know, they need to leave mm-hmm. The relationship. Now, I, I would never suggest directly you need to leave the marriage.
Like, I, it’s not something that I would say we don’t tell people what to do in our field, but if somebody’s a domestic violence victim, and it comes down to safety issues, you know, I’m gonna say, you need to get safe. You are not safe in this. We need to figure out a plan. And that’s one of
John-Nelson Pope: the things you do, is, is that there, and you, and one would be even be able to help that person walk that person through going to a shelter such as Catherine’s place, right.
For example.
Chris Gazdik: So the, my point is though, there’s, there are these. Kind of circumstances that are kind of clear a lot of times really revolving around safety sexual promiscuity, sexual [00:54:00] addiction you know, there, there are different, there are different factors that really, you know, you, you want, you don’t need to tolerate, you need to get out.
Mm-hmm. Bad relationship is bad. Where is addiction in that? Mm-hmm. You know, if your partner is such, in my mind, John, a kind of a gray area, Uhhuh, you know, it’s not a very clear cut thing like, your husband is hitting you, you need to get away. You’re not safe here. However, it’s really, really destroying, you know?
Mm-hmm. A lot about your life together. Mm-hmm. So how do you traverse that? You know, it’s really, really tough to make that call for a spouse, isn’t it? Mm-hmm.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: To leave them or that they have to leave, or you know, that they’re not safe with the kids. Yeah. But again, safety comes into that. Yeah. So you’re gonna do the safety dance?
John-Nelson Pope: No, that’s, that’s
Chris Gazdik: a bad pun. A bad pun, John. Yeah. Another dad pun. Let me rescue you from the pun. What about the kid? It’s the same thing with the kid. Mm-hmm. Right, right. This, [00:55:00] this child. Well, I think
John-Nelson Pope: if you had a, let me ask you this. Mm-hmm. If it came to your primary duty with an underage child is tough.
Is tough, is do you, do you protect, you try to put up. In terms of the spouse’s addiction? Or do you do what is best for the, the child? Oh, okay. What is your greater responsibility?
Chris Gazdik: Well, your greatest responsibility is to self god, self spouse, kids, family friends, and work in that order. Okay. Right, right.
But when you’re talking about protecting the children from, if you’re worried
John-Nelson Pope: about the safety of your child, a hundred percent. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Now, the other thing is what do you do with a child? That is exactly okay. That’s where I thought you were going. No, well, I’m, I’m gonna go there. Yeah. Too.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Because they’re the addict kids doing drugs, they’re wrecking the home. They’re doing that as well. What do, if they’re an
John-Nelson Pope: adult child,
Chris Gazdik: sometimes they’re definitely adults. You
John-Nelson Pope: don’t have the 30 years old living at the home. Right, right.
Chris Gazdik: You know, [00:56:00] what do you do with that?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, have you ever come across that in therapy, John?
Yes, I have. And I’ve got I’ve got a, a stepparent who is having to deal and work with a child that’s addicted to drugs and is now bedridden because of that addiction. Oh, yeah. And and that was because mom and and the family dynamic was that they could, in a way, they, they made him into the identified patient and he became he, he became totally unable to take care of and care for himself because he’s so degenerated physically Yeah.
With that addiction.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And there’s never been a needle in his arm, but it has always been. Something
Chris Gazdik: pills. Pills of some sort of pill. Yeah. It’s my landing spot that I have gotten to this, and I guess it’s the same landing spot for the spouse, but over many years of tantalizing myself and working with people in different situations.
And, you [00:57:00] know, one particular person I worked with for a long time and still living with her, her son, you know, who has the addiction problem. Mm-hmm. And, and, and other things, you know, you cannot tell a parent they have to do anything. Mm-hmm. So, the landing spot that I get with a spouse, I guess as well, I haven’t really done this so directive as I have with kids Uhhuh, I, I landed on with parents like, look, it is reasonable to allow your child to stay home and give them nothing but shelter and food for the purpose of mm-hmm.
You know living for survival. Right? And now that’s nothing else of any preferential stuff. We’re not talking about running out and all the codependent stuff. You’re being practical. It’s just practical. You have shelter and food. As long as he lives, as long as I’m living, you know, little Johnny or little Sally, even if you have addiction mm-hmm.
It’s also reasonable to not provide even those [00:58:00] two basic survival needs for, for your child. What if, what if been child, it’s reasonable to say you cannot stay here.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. If the child is stealing from you, if the and is abusing you and physically abusing you. I mean there’s, there’s another issue.
Yeah. That’s a d issue. But yeah. What about, alright, let’s say if there’s a a child, because we talked, we had a little discussion about schizophrenia, for example.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Earlier today you and I did. And there was a, a woman and a a husband and a wife who had a son and he was having active symptoms of schizophrenia.
He, he would often self-medicate with alcohol. And he also did not take his medications and his family kept him in the house. And this is by far ended up he became violent. And this is the, my great minority of cases with schizophrenia. But he became violent [00:59:00] and he actually killed his, his father.
Oh, wow. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And what do you do? And so in that point, it would’ve been prudent to that. But I think part of the laws and when society and laws even go against putting your child. The most loving thing would be is to have them go into an institution.
Chris Gazdik: The, the stakes are real. Mm-hmm. You know, these are the things that people are dealing with, and they know that they’re just that kind of close.
Mm-hmm. You can feel it that your kid has addiction or schizophrenia or something like that. And, and safety becomes of an issue. I’ll tell you, I I, I will say this, I have learned long ago, and I’ve repeated it many times, that there’s some conference, some dude somewhere said it, and I’m so appreciative because safety above all else is what he said.
Mm-hmm. Safety comes first above all else. Mm-hmm. And that has applied itself in just so many different ways over the course of practicing you know, therapy with people. Right. So you know, I, I think that’s where we land on is, [01:00:00] is, is safety comes first. But, you know, it’s, it’s reasonable to, to stay with them or have your kid.
If shelter and food, it’s also reasonable to straight not. Mm-hmm. And, and in the, in the middle of managing all of that, you, we’ve talked about the boundaries and, you know, gracious acceptance is still a thing that can be had. Even if you have to get the kid gone, you
John-Nelson Pope: get to thread the needle. Yep. And that’s the thing.
And so it, it’s not for the weak of heart.
Chris Gazdik: No. So challenging. Yeah. Like, I hate that phrase tough love, but people, everyone knows what tough love means. Mm-hmm. I just feel like it’s, it’s just a weird word, combin. I like tainted love. Tainted love. Tainted love. Geez. All right. Well, have we answered the questions?
Where, where, where are you? Where are you at, John? Any lingering thoughts in your mind?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, I think that sometimes the most loving thing one can do is to say it stops here and that someone that you love [01:01:00] would, would have to leave, but you doesn’t mean that you stop loving them. You give them every opportunity to to, to grow, and at the same time, you’re challenging yourself as well to see if there’s any other alternative.
I would, it’s like being on a hill and you see your, your child way far out from the distance and they’re doing things that you don’t like. That doesn’t mean that you’re not praying for ’em and loving them and reaching out to them.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Graciously accepting. Graciously accepting. All right. You know what time it is now, John, don’t you?
Oh, okay. It is time for the shrink wrap up. That is the way we decided to end our, our shows where each host shares a key takeaway on how practicing gracious acceptance can improve mental wellbeing and relationships. And Neil gets to decide who I guess, oh God, I hate, you know. Oh, yes, John, come on. And competitive.
Makes it love. You need to come up, Neil, and be thinking about like, what are we [01:02:00] looking for? How do we, how do we get the wind rock, paper, scissor, John, go first or you just want to go? I’ll just, I’ll, I’ll go. Alright.
John-Nelson Pope: Kill it. I think the second part of the Serenity Prayer where it says, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change and the courage to change the things I can’t.
But also accepting the hardships as that pathway to growth and to change. Okay. So in other words, it’s a dynamic. Mm. Okay. In other words, it’s a, a fine line. You walk the, the edge.
Chris Gazdik: I think this is gonna happen with me and you when we’re doing our shrink rack up. Wrap up, John, we, we key in on the same thing.
Okay. Because my wrap up has gotta be the serenity prayer too. Yeah. I mean, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference. I think that has everything to do with the boundaries that we’ve talked about and, and, and the fighting.
And, and when, when you’re fighting something, chapter [01:03:00] 11, you know, fighting bankruptcy. You, you go, you, you, you go in deficits, man. Yeah. But you can’t mess with my shrink wrap up. You know? It’s just such a challenge to, to to find yourself, to stop resisting and fighting. ’cause you, the world will break you.
Right. Gracious Acceptance is accepting, you know, your yourself. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s, that’s good. I think, I think basically, and just another wrap up, wrap up is he’s doing an addendum. Neil? No. What’s the ruling on that? No, you’re looking in, you’re looking at it for, we’re looking at it the same thing at two different sides.
So that’s the only thing. Got you. Neil,
Chris Gazdik: what do we got?
Neil Robinson: Really good. See when you guys do it, you guys, like, as Victoria put it, you guys are very robust for your two sentence wrap up. Right? Well, and they’re so, they’re so deep and they’re, they’re so poignant. I would say in this case. Hmm, I think I gotta go with John again.
Oh, the, the, the, the, the acknowledging the [01:04:00] hardships and those types of things, I think is a big part of it to me. Like I understand where you, ’cause you guys both want this sort, but I, I like the idea that you have to accept that there are gonna be hardships is gonna be towards your path. And I think going through the idea that gracious acceptance is gonna be easy or that whatever, like, I like the fact that that’s something that John brought up because it is gonna be a hard.
Path that you take, if that’s the way you’re gonna go. Oh, very true.
Chris Gazdik: Good point. I appreciate that, Neil. You know, look gracious acceptance is something that we hopefully have taken the mystery out a little bit for you. Congratulations, Sean, by the way. No, no, no.
John-Nelson Pope: It’s fine. You’re gonna be next time
Chris Gazdik: or Victoria.
Get it. Victoria. She needs one. We’re we’re. She needs to win. We’ll get to win. Listen, gracious Acceptance is something that isn’t very easy. It isn’t almost even natural sometimes. And so hopefully we’ve taken the veil off of that a little bit and helped you to understand so that in your relationship with yourself and in the relationship with people that you care about and that are close to you, that you can extend and have extended to you this concept of gracious acceptance in the moment, being with [01:05:00] people, this is what we need more of in the world.
Loneliness is an epidemic. There’s so much division, divisiveness, strife, you know. Love one another. Some people will say graciously accept yourself and others. Hopefully we’re taking the mystery out so that you can execute that a little bit more in your daily life. So we will see you next week. Take care, be well, and we’ll see you then.
See you. Bye.