When a term like womanizer is brought up there are a lot of negative stereotypes and perceptions that come with it. As a show that likes to dispel myths, we wanted to do a deeper dive into what it really means to be a womanizer in today’s time. The panel looks at what it is, what are the effects of it and what are some of the common traits that come with people who are classified as womanizers. They then look further at what could cause people to act like this and give tips on how to avoid and get out of the cycle of womanizing.
Thing about these three questions as you listen:
- How do we define this in modern day?
- Why has the term Mansplaining come out so much for us?
- Is this traumatic experience unidentified?
Tune in to see What is Womanizing Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson
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Episode #225 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello. This is through a therapist’s eyes on April the 13th, 2023 episode. What did I say? 2 25? I think I got it. All right. That’s a pretty good accomplishment it for me. Mr. John Pope is hanging out with us over there. Yes, I am. You good to be
John-Nelson Pope: here? Have a good week. Yes, I have a very busy week. Thank you.
That is a
Chris Gazdik: good way to be. Yes. Had a good Easter, miss Victoria Pendergrass. I think you had a light day today. Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: I had a sort of a light lightish week. Wasn’t as heavy as it normally was, but it’s fine. I got some stuff. Did my, did my taxes today with my husband. Oh gosh.
Chris Gazdik: Oh my goodness. That’s, that’s, that’s a better day now.
Victoria Pendergrass: They’re Wait until the last minute though,
Chris Gazdik: you know. Oh, I always file the extension. I am an extension, guys. So we’re gonna be talking about womanizing today. Check these questions out. How do we define this really in [00:01:00] modern day? Why has the term mansplaining come out so much for us? John, you said that you were kind of interested in that component.
Mm-hmm.
John-Nelson Pope: Definitely. How that’s related to
Chris Gazdik: womanizing. Yeah. I, I, and I don’t know if it is or isn’t that’ll be an interesting thing to conclude or not. Is it, or is it not? And then I am curious for us to wrap a little bit about, is this traumatic experience related or unidentified on some level because. I suspect it is a little bit, little bit.
Maybe we’ll talk about it and we shall see. So this is where you get direct insights from a panel of therapist and time in your car or personal time at home, though it’s not the delivery of therapy services in any way. We got contact at through a therapist’s eyes.com. It’s a great way to get up with us.
Check out the website. We got this cool merch stuff. We got transcripts that are on there. Mm-hmm. We’ve got all the shows listed. I understand the [00:02:00] old, old shows are not on Spotify, so that’s something to realize that you can get always all of them all the time all the way back to the days with just me and Craig at episode one through like one 50 or something like that.
Those are really weird for me to look back on. Oh yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: It really is. Oh, yeah. When I go out into the lobby. Yeah. And I, I look at a video and you have a full beard. I’m like, oh. It’s like a whole different person on the screen there. It,
Chris Gazdik: it was, and it was a little bit of a different show when I did it with just Craig and I.
Yeah. I, I, I sometimes miss those. I miss you, Craig. I miss those days. Anyway. What else? I think I did my intro stuff, except for this is the human emotional experience and we endeavor to figure this out together. So let’s get into, I’m curious guys. When you found out late, as always, the topic is womanizing.
It’s kind of curious to take a spin through your head with, what did [00:03:00] that do in your head? What did that do in your mind?
Victoria Pendergrass: Made me think of Britney Spears. Oh,
Chris Gazdik: really? Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: How so? I, because she has the song Womanizer.
Chris Gazdik: Oh,
John-Nelson Pope: okay.
Chris Gazdik: I wouldn’t know about that. Are you gonna sing that one, John? No,
Victoria Pendergrass: that’s say I’m not gonna sing it.
Cause all y’all wanna turn this podcast off right now. If I sung
John-Nelson Pope: it, oops. I did it again. That’s the only one I know. That’s cause my kids listen to it, so I got nothing but man, SPLA womanizing. Yeah. Yeah. I, it’s interesting because that, that’s an old term, isn’t it? I mean, it’s a, a colloquial term and there’s probably some sort of a scientific term or some sort of a DSM five type of term
Chris Gazdik: for it.
In, in, in replace
John-Nelson Pope: of, in replace of, but possibly. Possibly. But I think it’s it’s compulsive. That’s what I think it compulsive. I think it’s, [00:04:00] I think it’s a process
Chris Gazdik: thing. Yeah. Victoria as the only woman on the show, I guess Yes. Has. What little journey your mind did with this?
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, after thinking about Bre Spears,
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Victoria Pendergrass: Qualify that. I think, I mean, obviously I think it’s something that I go ahead, feel like I, maybe that I not, maybe I may not deal with a lot, but that I know a lot about, or at least I feel like I know a lot about. And I definitely was thinking about how it would definitely be an interesting topic for the podcast, especially with me being the only female.
This would’ve been a great episode for, to have Casey join us or even like Cella or somewhat, you know, like some, you know, just to get
John-Nelson Pope: more, well, I’ll, I’ll give up my place,
Victoria Pendergrass: Even just to have like one other, but I still think it’s gonna be an interesting conversation. I’m interested to hear where y’all Yeah.
Where, where y’all say, yeah. And [00:05:00] you know, Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: go ahead John. I, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you, but I was just so eager to, you know, bill Clinton, people of power womanizing and he got impeached as a result of that. Mm-hmm. John Edwards.
Chris Gazdik: John Edwards was, yeah. Been back in the news, not for recent behavior, but in comparison to the current events.
John-Nelson Pope: Yes. Right. And so you think in terms of men and power differential with, with women, and. There’s a sense that the spouse will stay by the, by the man. And when he’s doing the womanizing,
Victoria Pendergrass: even like, yeah, even like Jeff, Jeffrey Epstein, and like all mm-hmm. Indeed, all those people that a bunch of documentaries have been named, have been made about, you
Chris Gazdik: know, I think it’s, it’s, it’s interesting because John, you’ve got my mind wandering a little bit with the colloquial use of the word being a bit of an older term, and I don’t know what it would be replaced with.
Mm-hmm. I,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, I almost would [00:06:00] counter that. And I would say it’s still very, it’s not relevant. Bold. Okay. Yeah. I would still
Chris Gazdik: in, in my perusing it’s current. Yeah. I would still say it’s current. Yeah. In my perusing around Google, I didn’t find just like old stuff coming out. It was very recent, you know, things with, you know, very well mind and psychology today and you know, things like that.
It’s still talked about. But, but I agree. I don’t hear the term as much. So it’s,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, I definitely don’t hear, I agree with that
Chris Gazdik: part. Yeah. But it’s, but what other term do you use?
Victoria Pendergrass: That’s what I’m sitting here thinking. Right. Trying to rack my brain about, I don’t know what, what other term you would
Chris Gazdik: use other than, than, other than, you know, sexual abuse or, or, you know, trauma experience or, you know, things like that.
But you know, in the workplace we have all kinds of examples and situations and, and we’ll get into all of that. But it’s, it’s interesting. Is this old or is this new? I didn’t expect that to come out today. And I guess we’re landing on, maybe it isn’t as old as you and I or you thought that I journeyed with you there.
You know, it’s still very [00:07:00] much around. Well, and,
John-Nelson Pope: and I’m not, I’m not saying that it’s not a a good term, I’m just saying that, that there in our age, we always seem to come up with new terms for Right. For old things. And so, and we haven’t, and womanizing is, is just, it’s there. I mean, it’s, it’s still relevant.
Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Okay. I have a confession, or not a confession, but a, a, a reconciling with I, I actually used a little bit of chat G p t this time, this go round. It’s a new foray for me. I never have done anything Okay. Like that. And I really debated it in my head and I tried it and I, I mean, everything I’d looked through, it’s, you know it, it’s, it’s more my own organization of things and stuff, but your job is at risk.
Yeah. With chat. Yeah. With chat. G p T therapy online. Yeah. If you don’t know what chat G p T is, Victoria is about to tell you.
Victoria Pendergrass: [00:08:00] I dunno.
I mean I may be a millennial in s slightly tech call myself tech savvy, but I have no idea what this is. So in full confession, nor have I ever
Chris Gazdik: heard of it. So in full confession before the mics came on, we, John and I found out and we were astounded that you’ve never heard of chat G P t
Victoria Pendergrass: if I have. It was not, it did not stay in my
Chris Gazdik: brain.
That’s amazing. That is a current event. We’re so we’re gonna make this a little quick current event business, so, so that people can know cuz it’s huge. Victoria n John, you will sound more intelligent than I will describing. What is chat g p T in brief?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I, well I think Neil probably knows a lot more about it than, than I do except that it’s a, a form of artificial intelligence, but it basically is a way of, of.
Responding you’re able to, to provide input and it can actually using its [00:09:00] multiple sources and multiple intelligences, let’s say for data. It can actually write a report. It can write a sermon, it can it can actually have a conversation. That sort of thing.
Chris Gazdik: I’m so confused. It’s, it’s amazing.
Neil, what is it called? A mass media or a mass communication thing? What? There’s a title for it. Do you know what I’m trying to say? You know, he shakes his head. No. Yeah. Am I wrong on that? Not, not really. You, you’re right on. I think. But to, to, to put some more meat around that. Victoria. This, this is a major, major technologically advanced advancement.
So big that it is basically going to be as big of an influencer on the, the world. As the internet was. So it is said, and so it is an artificial intelligence component that you interact with and it searches everything that’s on the web to give you all the information at hand. You can [00:10:00] write reports, you can write stuff people are doing, and that’s with it.
People are doing person replacement with it. It is amazing. You, it generates a, a, a paragraph on a topic and you say, Hey rewrite this as though Joe Rogan were saying it, and it rewrites in that style of, of, and in fact they did a podcast with Joe there, it’s gonna be transformational on the way and that’s the problem with it accepted it’s danger.
But yeah, it’s, go ahead Neil, you you wanna be real quick with us? What, what? Give, give us, give us your take on the chat. G p T.
Neil speaking: Yeah. I mean, you guys aren’t that far off on it, but I mean, it’s, you know, it’s a transformer, so think of it like Google search on steroids to where instead of using Google search, just give you back results to you to then research, it’s then taking that research and it’s basically writing, doing your part that you’re doing where you’re disseminating it and you’re parsing all the information.
So that’s the biggest change to it, is like Google search with all of its infinite information, it has. But now it’s doing the work that researchers, [00:11:00] researchers do, doctors, teachers, students, and it’s actually parsing that information for you. And it’s put in a platform that, you know, that saves you time.
Chris speaking It’s, it’s in beta now, so it’s being tested and being refined and whatnot. I’ll end this little segment by saying one of the major mental health implications of it and societal implications in general is the effect that we have with well, you could say fake news. What’s the term I’m thinking about?
Misrepresentation of disinformation. Disinformation, thank you. That’s what I was, that’s what I was trying to come up with. That, that’s gonna be one of the big, huge, huge
John-Nelson Pope: dangers and it tends to have a point of view. That’s the other thing. Can it, can it, it, it can. And, and, and one of, as a former professor, teacher I’m concerned about students generating.
Oh, Jesus, yes. Yeah. And particularly in our field, you basically don’t have to think mental health and behavioral, the person’s not [00:12:00] developing those critical thinking skills in order to, to be able to be, you don’t have think effective therapist.
Chris Gazdik: You don’t have to work, you don’t have to learn. It just does it for you.
But let’s see how it did. So this is actually chat GT’s definition of, of womanizing a behavior that involves the pursuit and objectification of women for the purpose of sexual conquest or gratification. Often without regard for their feelings or wellbeing. It could take many forms including persistent, flirting, casual sex, and engaging in multiple simultaneous romantic relationships.
I thought that was
John-Nelson Pope: a, it’s pretty, pretty good. But it’s also, do
Victoria Pendergrass: you feel like it’s missing some or the compuls. Do you feel like,
Chris Gazdik: oh, it’s missing the compulsive aspect,
John-Nelson Pope: sense the compulsive as aspects of it, but also not dealing with the, the person that does the womanizing. In other words, it’s what the womanizer does to the to the person.
Chris Gazdik: You know, what just clicked in my brain is you’re describing the compulsion component, because I don’t know that that’s a part of [00:13:00] womanizing per se, in the old thinking. Mm-hmm. But in the new realm and the newer science that we have, we can, and, and the, and the new term that we were struggling with, Would be sex addiction.
Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: yeah. Right. That’s exactly right. And of course, that’s not a DSM five area. It is not, it is not, it’s a process a process addiction, which is compulsive addiction. Right. So it’s just a, a
Chris Gazdik: subtype. It it, right, right. So, you know, we actually talked a lot about addiction recently on the show. But sex addiction would be compulsive sexual behavior, and certainly womanizing.
That’s gonna be a big part of, of, you know, womanizing and, you know, in the, the way that we were gonna talk about and describe today. So yeah, that’s, that’s our, that’s the new term sex addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it’s, it’s important to understand kind of the, the aspects. So, you know, [00:14:00] why, why, why do we care about this?
And, and I think, you know, some of the things that you think about is. Really the age old objectification issue that we’ve had in Society of Women. That’s a big factor in sexism issues and all the emotional harm that can come from this type of thing. And you know, ironically you know, meeting the need for the guy in affection and attention or love, which, Doesn’t meet the needs when a mm-hmm.
Gentleman goes through, well, you can’t use the term gentleman probably, honestly, cuz this isn’t Gentleman Lee Light. Probably wouldn’t. But ultimately it actually, ironically results in the opposite, increased isolation and loneliness and various negative feelings. And, and then, you know, my mind goes very much to the full-blown sexual harassment that we have in the workplace.
Mm-hmm. And in, you know, in the world and in groups. It’s a profoundly common, much more [00:15:00] common experience than what you would think. What do you think about that statement, Victoria? This is a profoundly more common issue than what I think particularly men think, but I think women
Victoria Pendergrass: as well. No. Yeah, I think, no, I think most women.
At least women in the workforce. Women what? Hell, heck. Even women. Sorry, I heard that. You can say even women, you can say hell, even women not in the workforce or actually all women are basically in the workforce. Cuz even if you’re a stay-at-home mom, that is a full-time job in itself. But like, I think women know, I think women know that this is a lot more prevalent and profound than what is out there.
I mean, you just walk down any street and like ask a, a female if they’ve experienced anything having to do with womanizing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I can [00:16:00] guarantee you 10 outta 10. Like I would be shocked if it was less than 10 out of 10. Out of 10.
Chris Gazdik: That have experienced some sort of, some sort of unwanted advance.
Yeah. Or
Victoria Pendergrass: inappropriate. Yeah. Or witnessed it happened to, you know, either they experienced it themselves or they watched it. Happened to a colleague, you know, I mean, heck, you just go to a bar at at night and you’re gonna, so is there sexual
John-Nelson Pope: harassment a as opposed to womanizing? I w i I was under the impression that this would be somebody that has serial partners and, and a rapid even within the bounds of a, of a relationship.
And I’m wondering, are are, do we need to parse that out a little bit? Are
Victoria Pendergrass: you saying, is there a difference between sexual harassment and womanizing? Is that what you’re
Chris Gazdik: saying? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m ju I’m, I’m suggesting
Victoria Pendergrass: that I, yeah, I think, I think po and correct me if you think I might be wrong, I think one could lead to the.[00:17:00]
Chris Gazdik: Oh yeah. Yes, certainly. I, I think it is an interesting thing that we’ve stumbled upon though. Yeah. Because I, my mind was doing the same little journey, John. Mm-hmm. Go a little further, if you would, to, to, to par, because I think parsing that out is really important.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. I think I, sexual harassment in, in other words, like in a workplace or something that’s unwanted advances.
And when I was, when I was thinking in terms of, of womanizing, I was thinking of the pathology with the, with mainly the great majority of the time with men. And the, the pathology or the, let’s say the, the, that aspect as opposed to the social aspect or the cultural aspect of where a man has an unwanted sexual approach to to a woman.
So there’s, it’s sort of a different, a sociological aspect of, or a cultural aspect, a [00:18:00] workplace aspect. Whereas let’s say this guy goes in and why does he do this and why does he feel so empty or unsure of himself or his masculinity, that he would go outside a relationship and have another relationship with somebody that’s a willing partner.
That sort of thing.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I I see clinical levels here. Yeah. I, I, I, and, and, and I’m glad. We’re on this because Victoria, and I’m not pushing back at, at, at a female’s experience at all because I’m, I’m, I’m a guy and I don’t know that. Yeah. And I agree and I’ll own that and, and yeah. And I would think that to be the case as well.
Yeah. But when we, but when we look at different clinical levels of what is going on, yeah. M my mindset with womanizing is more, and we have another term, don’t we guys, you know, sexual harassment and, and sexual [00:19:00] addictions. There are different clinical levels of this, right? Are women gonna be hit on regularly and unwantedly So in a bar all, all the time, I’m sure.
Yeah. It, it probably hands down every, every, every time. But, but there’s different clinical levels that when you start really thinking about womanizing Yeah. And we’ll get into it and discuss it. You’re talking about narcissist, you’re talking about people that are dysfunctional. You’re talking about people that are Yeah.
Much higher clinical level than what you’ve got with a classic construction worker, woo, woo, cat calling and whatnot. Yeah. Still not appropriate, still, you know, does damage and, and, and, and bad. Yeah. But I’m, I’m thinking of this on a, on a cl on a higher clinical level. Okay. No, I get what you’re
Victoria Pendergrass: saying.
Yeah. And I guess maybe when I was talking I’d gotten more, I maybe was focused more on like the sexual harassment and like that kind of side of it versus. [00:20:00] Focusing more on like the womanizing?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I, I think you kind of, you, you’ve expanded my thought about this a bit because I was thinking in terms of, of a sort of a mutual transaction, right?
And a, and a drive for a, for a man to have a relationship with a A partner that that is agreeing. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And I think a lot of this does go to the depths with that dysfunction of narcissism and things of that nature, you know, with relationship and really dysfunctional levels of how attachments are formed.
And, and we, and we try to relate. I, I think, go ahead. So in other words,
John-Nelson Pope: are you, are you suggesting that perhaps they’re unable, let’s say somebody that is the womanizer is, is absolutely unable to develop strong attachments or barely able bar Barely able and it’s tenuous and then it depends on the
Chris Gazdik: partner insecure attachment levels at best.
Yeah. And, [00:21:00] and that creates this really unwanted, very inappropriate, downright dangerous behavior that can lead even to full-blown sexual harassment or abuse. Yeah. And but, but I think this is another good spot. You know, with this segment to, to, to put in to the mix. There’s, there’s, you know, we don’t even really have a term for the opposite side of this.
No, you can’t say Man
Victoria Pendergrass: White, the, you know. Yeah, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Like, like, man, man, Manz, you can’t even, what is Manz? That’s name.
Wow. But you know, this goes to, and, and I actually was able to get it out to the world in that Authority Magazine article I mentioned about last time, because they asked me a question in there, if you could create a movement to help the most amount of people mm-hmm. You know, what movement would that be?
And I was like, oh, I love this question. I’m so glad that I’ve been able to be asked this because I’ve never heard [00:22:00] anybody talk about the he too movement, uhhuh. And now, previous to that, people had talked about a little bit of the men too movement. So, so you, so you move the n into the Me too. Mm-hmm.
And that’s because men are in major silence and in hear me, I’m gonna go out on a limb in mass numbers victims of all kinds of sexual offenses and trauma from, you know, from men and women. Mm-hmm. But it’s such a taboo thing for men. I mean, we even just giggled about the term. I mean, what, what would the term even be, man?
Yeah. That’s so weird. Yeah. To think about. But
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, we’re definitely not undermining. That at all. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. That total
Chris Gazdik: and tremendously so, and, and, and in, in a way creating massive silence about it. And it’s, yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: But I, I think also our culture now, our current [00:23:00] culture will shut that down and encourages that silence because Oh for sure if you say that, then you are, you’re being
Chris Gazdik: as a dude, you’re supposed to want it and like it, right?
Yeah. Yeah. It’s supposed to be like, you know, what, is it Mary Jane or I, I’ve had your sugar mama or
John-Nelson Pope: whatever. I’ve actually had a some clients had multiple clients that have been in a sexually assaulted by male and
Chris Gazdik: females, right? Yep. I have too. Tremendously. So. Tremendously so. Well, yeah. And it
Victoria Pendergrass: even gets even more, I think men, and correct me if I’m wrong, cuz not a man, but I think men get even more silent when it’s Male on male, like a manar because there’s all, can I give a hell?
Yeah. Hell yeah. I mean, cuz of all the like assumed, ashamed disappointment. All, all the feelings. Oh, and the guilt. And the shame. Guilt and like what will people think? So I mean, a lot of the same feelings that a woman might feel if a man it to be [00:24:00] sexually assaulted or, you know. But I think, yeah, that usually.
At least from what I’ve read, and you know what’s kind of, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Well, and let’s stay on this for a little bit longer and then we’ll get off of it and we’ll, we’ll go to the woman component, but to be thorough, you know, it, it occurs to me that nowadays, as you kind of said a little bit ago, Victoria, women are much more now in the workplace in addition to being stay at home, but the glass ceiling is cracking, at least hopefully.
Victoria Pendergrass: Let’s, let’s bust right through it. I
mean,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. You know, it, it, it, it, but it, there’s a lot of high executives that are women. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. There are a many amount of bosses that are ladies. So are we
John-Nelson Pope: talking about perhaps power differentials?
Chris Gazdik: Power differentials? Mm-hmm. Where, where women are in very high level positions, and this is beginning, I suspect I’m going out on a little bit of a limb, and I wanna be clear, I’m not citing any studies.
[00:25:00] I am going anecdotal clinical information. That’s what I’ve got to work on. Mostly that’s what my career work has been, but that, that is on the rise. I would not be surprised that, that from a man’s perspective, with the power differentials that are in place, that this is happening a lot. Does that sound crazy?
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m gonna say, I don’t feel like I have enough information to agree or disagree with you. Fair
Chris Gazdik: enough. Fair enough. I’m going out on a little bit of a limb, but I, I, and I’m thinking through my head of situations and stuff and I. I haven’t had a lot of men talking about that in the workplace.
But here’s the point. I don’t think we would, we as men would, I
Victoria Pendergrass: think Neil has something to say there.
Neil: There was a case recently where there was a high level executive at like Google or Yahoo, that her person underneath her basically filed a lawsuit [00:26:00] because she came onto him at a, like a Christmas party.
And then basically because of that, he got ended up getting fired because he did not accept her advances cuz he was married and all this other stuff. So yeah, you’re right there. It is becoming more prevalent, but it’s still, that’s one out of.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Well, and, and recently again, another case was where a house, a former house of representative congresswoman from California was in a had been in a open relationship, open marriage with her with her husband.
She was bi bisexual, had an affair with the person outside their marriage. And then then she had another affair with another man. And she was misspend, she was misusing fi campaign monies and, and having people on payrolls and things like that. But she was using her power Yeah. To, to have that.
And it was a little scandal. She lost her seat. [00:27:00]
Chris Gazdik: I, I think this is on the rise, or I will go out on a limb again and predict that it will be more on the rise. Mm-hmm. Because unfortunately people do get into power positions and the power gets a abused. It
Victoria Pendergrass: just, well, and I would argue that it’s already there.
It’s just that more and more people now are feeling comfortable coming out. I mean, obviously yes, things will continue to happen, but I would say that almost it’s probably been happening. Well, maybe, I mean,
Chris Gazdik: I, I’m hedging a little bit on men being comfortable coming out with this. I, I don’t know that there is a whole lot of comfort at all yet built into any cultural about not coming out any cultural way.
Yeah. Okay. I, I, I think this is still very much uncharted and unbroken through ground to. Allow for maybe the building on a few of cases that you guys have mm-hmm. Have, have quoted I think it’s much freer, [00:28:00] much more encouraged, in fact, sought to protect women from this sort of thing. And thank goodness that needs to be the case.
Mm-hmm. I have no problem with that. Men, men may need help with that. We, we, we, we are disabled for the terrible stigma that is very much there about, about this. I, I would say so let’s, let’s move on with, with, with some of this and see, see where we go. This is an interesting conversation now. It definitely is.
I’m, I’m gonna do a pause in the middle for a sponsor we haven’t done for a little while with better help. Boom. Better help. So I’m gonna say this also. You know, recognition for better hope, better, better help. As a sponsor of our show, if you are struggling with sexual abuse, if you are struggling with sexual harassment, if you are struggling as a man with these things or as a woman with these things, they are prevalent.
And please do not be [00:29:00] alone with the experience that you’re having, whether it be vis-a-vis in the workplace or vis-a-vis at home that you, there are avenues and resources to reach out. And an easy one is the sponsor of our show. Better Help You would go to through a therapists is.com, and you click on the counseling button that sets you up with Better Help.
Take a quick little survey and they will guide you through to somebody who is going to be able to help you with this. So we’re gonna tie this together with our topic today. Today with our sponsor. Better Help.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, you know that you can, once they match you with a therapist, you can text them, you can do calling, you can do video chat.
Like, you can do whatever platform you feel com comfortable with. Like if you’re just having a freak out at work and you maybe can’t call them, but you can text, like that’s a great feature to be able to still reach [00:30:00] out and contact your therapists, but have different avenues of
John-Nelson Pope: doing it. And the therapists are well trained.
They have anywhere from two to three years of postgraduate training for a master’s of arts or science in, in a particular field or like LPCs, licensed professional counselors. Do they also do social workers? Mm-hmm. Here’s Lcw. So in marriage and family therapist and psychologists, and they’re well
Chris Gazdik: trained.
So go to through a therapist eyes.com, hit the counseling tab, go get a reach out for really important topics, not just sexual harassment and abuse, but all the things that therapy can be, therapy can be helpful and the link
Victoria Pendergrass: gets you 10%.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, thank you. Right, the good point. Yep. You get 10% when you go through, through a therapist eyes.com.
Good point. And let’s get back to it. So let’s go with some common traits. I, I, I wanna, I, I think given our [00:31:00] conversation so far, it, it’ll clear up some of the things that we’re looking for with the dysfunction, you know, with the, the, the level of, of clinical disruption and dysfunction that is there. We’re, we’re talking more.
You know, the level of narcissistic personality disorder, the level of, you know, violators and perpetrators, sexual offenders in this type of a thing. Well, I
John-Nelson Pope: got a question for you, and I’m throwing this back at you. Okay. Is the, with the narcissism is because I think that’s, that’s very key. There’s a sense of emptiness or the sense that the narcissist has to, to be loved and to be appreciated, either that, or to, to demonstrate control or power over someone.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. What, what’s, what’s your, what’s your question for me? Well, I answered, you answered it. Yeah. Because you answered your own question. It is, it is a big part of the compulsive behavior and the, the disruption in attachments. The, the [00:32:00] narcissistic injury that occurs. And I, that, I say that with emphasis because that term narcissistic injury changed and sort of formulated my mind differently when I thought about several years ago.
Hearing that term, what’s going on for the narcissist, because they are in a pickle, they are not well. Mm-hmm. And they appear like they’re overly confident and overly well, and overly like, you know, special and whatnot. They’re a shell of themselves inside. And when you’re a victim of a narcissist, it’s a horrible, horrible experience.
Very difficult and sticky situations emotionally.
John-Nelson Pope: Would you say that the, it it’s kind of a, a mirror of, of borderline personality, that there’s some similarity, just a
Victoria Pendergrass: between borderline and
Chris Gazdik: narc or narcissism, narcissism. Huh? If there’s
Victoria Pendergrass: that is Well, it’s definitely, it’s definitely not. Well, is it? It’s a, it’s a dark, is it?
Well, I was gonna say it’s a differential diagnosis. Uhhuh. [00:33:00] Like, is it, I’m thinking, is it in the DSN where it says differential work? Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Real quick. Differential diagnosis just means, oh, sorry. That’s all right. When we have a diagnosis in clinical work, we may have a differential, meaning we’re thinking about, it might be this, it might be the third thing, or it might be, you know, something else.
So we’re, we’re framing in, and you gotta rule out, you gotta rule things
Victoria Pendergrass: out. And for, for example, for borderline personality disorder depressive and bipolar disorders are, are differential. Our differential diagnosis, cuz they’re very similar in aspects. So you. Really clarify and look at the specifics to determine whether or not is a borderline personality.
Is it dep depressive or a, or a bipolar disorder? Yes. So just
Chris Gazdik: for an example. Absolutely. But John, go further because that’s fascinating what you, well
John-Nelson Pope: in, in a sense with borderline personality disorder. And this is, you know, and, and God bless someone with this because this is someone that is, feels so empty about [00:34:00] himself or herself mm-hmm.
That that they have to fill themselves up or they feel extreme. Like
Chris Gazdik: they’ll, the validation, validation seek out attention and stuff. And
John-Nelson Pope: so I could see a, a narcissistic person being attracted to a borderline person because that border Is that, yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: no, I’m agreeing. Yeah. Sorry. How,
Chris Gazdik: how long have you thought about this?
Is this new or, or it that’s, no, I’ve been thinking about it. Yeah. That’s stupid. Cool. Yeah. Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: that’s, and I’ve never thought about that, but it
Chris Gazdik: makes sense. I never have either the, the correlation in the playoff of those particular issues. And I, and
John-Nelson Pope: I think that works. And I think that that makes a dynamic of which there’s a lot of, of turmoil.
Turmoil that’s in there. And you can’t the, the partners can’t quit each other, or,
Chris Gazdik: Can’t, not to mention, I’ll tell you what my brain also does, and then we’ll get off of the, the, but this is cool. This is be, this is certainly through a therapist e es but I just want to get to some other [00:35:00] things. If the borderline diagnosed personality disorder person were a male, would they be narcissist?
And if the male narcissistic personality disorder were to be a female, would they be diagnosed with border? And that’s our
John-Nelson Pope: culture. That could be a cultural bias that there was by the apa, the American Psychiatric Association with doing the right, the developing of the, the DSM five
Victoria Pendergrass: s or because 75% of all bipolar, not bipolar borderline personality disorder diagnoses are women are female.
Right? Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: So, and, and, and I’ve never really ascribed to that. I’ve seen in my clinical work traits with men and well, I just talked to about that you’re not assisting traits with women, but, but that has to be, you have to be really paying attention to that. You will fall into a cultural trap, right? At least in the states.
I’ll be curious what it is around the world kind of as well, but, you know, culturally in the states, I’m more adept with obviously, That is [00:36:00] maybe a thing That’s interesting. Yeah, you bring up a really good point, John. Yeah. Good job, Pope. That’s well, thank you. Stupid will Pope. Good job. Alright too bone to take a deep dive and now you have this little interlude to have in your mind.
Rewind and listen to this again, this five minute clip here. Pretty cool. And then go to episode 1 76 cuz we took a deep dive on the narcissistic personality disorder and how to cope with that and what that is all about. So that is a really, really good combination for you. If you, if you want to go down that, I’m not even gonna call it a rabbit hole.
If you want to go down that cool path. Cool. That exploration, right? Yeah. So what are the common traits though? Let’s go back. Clinically significant levels of womanizing and sexual abuse and sexual addictions. So, you know, you, you really do have these folks that are perpetrators, if you will. Their charisma and their charm is off the [00:37:00] charts.
Man, they, I dunno if you just hear me snap. I was laughing. Yeah, yeah. You see her on YouTube, she’s got her moves going and everything. Man, they will have fun and engage you and be super interesting. And it starts out really like, wow, this person’s really got it all
Victoria Pendergrass: together. They kind of do that thing that pulls you in.
Chris Gazdik: Yes.
John-Nelson Pope: The Carly Simon song, you’re so vain. Okay. Go. You are so vain. You think this song is about you. Don’t, you, don’t, you don’t you, and you’re going up through Nova Scotia Scotia to see the, the total eclipse of the sun. And you can control people. Yeah. And so that’s a narcissist and a, a person that’s charisma, charismatic.
Mm-hmm. And dog gone it, people fall for that. And they just, they do, they do. They get googly
Chris Gazdik: eyes and don’t think you wouldn’t you listening out there thinking, oh, that wouldn’t be me. No, no, no. As
Victoria Pendergrass: I say, a Pancho, no, no. The women out there that are, I’m a strong woman. I’m not gonna fall for that.
Chris Gazdik: [00:38:00] It’s.
It’s intoxicating, it’s fun. It’s really a very charismatic,
John-Nelson Pope: so they know how to manipulate and push the buttons. And so,
Victoria Pendergrass: because they’ve been doing it probably for a long time and they’ve kind, it’s kind of like an art and they’ve crafted it throughout the years. Yep. And they have found the perfect thing to say, the perfect line to draw you in.
The perfect comment to say the whatever it is, they very suggestible, perfected it so that when they, so now when they go out to the bar, to the whatever, you know, like. It’s like a hook,
Chris Gazdik: line, sinker, you know? It’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a game. It’s a conquest. Those are some of the traits. And you went to a big trait John of, of manipulative.
Right. You know, making promises and not keeping them using guilt or different forms of pressure to create compliance with what it is that the person is wanting. This could be in the workplace. Like these are, these are the characteristics. This is the way that, that it goes. And then when you get to know the person, another big characteristic, going back [00:39:00] to John, what we talked about a little while ago, the, the idea of.
Of commitment. Like there’s a, there’s a very big fear or discomfort. These are very insecure attachment styles. Very surface level. Very surface level for sure. Stuff. We’re not going deep. We’re not going with motion, we’re not going, you know, revealing and, and, and reciprocating, revealing and getting to know.
It’s, it’s, it is very much a lack of, of commitment. It goes to say a little further, you know, poor boundary control. Mm-hmm. I mean, the boundary structures are just, oh, gosh, twisted almost on it. Yeah. Twisted. And, and
Victoria Pendergrass: they probably don’t even know what a boundary is.
Chris Gazdik: Well, or how they form them, or, or
Victoria Pendergrass: they may have some very twisted definition of what a boundary is.
Chris Gazdik: Confused. Very confused at best. Yeah. Confused. Confused at best. So these are some of the traits. I mean, these are some of the things that you look out for. [00:40:00] And, and, and you’re right. I mean, there’s. There’s, there are a lot of men that just absolutely go for the game in the conquest and use a power structure especially, and end up having multiple ladies.
You mentioned Clinton, I’m not gonna go out on a limb and I’ve never diagnosed him or whatever, but womanizing, you know, womanizing
John-Nelson Pope: or Trump. I mean, it’s an example,
Chris Gazdik: right? It arguably so, and you may not have known the other name. We know that in North Carolina politics, John Edwards, there, there are a lot, lot
John-Nelson Pope: of political, and he’s very charismatic.
Oh, he’s usually charismatic. Yeah. And, and his, his wife with, with cancer was dying and he. Having these affairs just, yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m sorry. It’s just so stupid. I’m just like, what? Like what are these people thinking? But I mean, it’s, it lines up perfectly with like what we’re
Chris Gazdik: talking about, you know, Victoria, it’s interesting.
It, it, it, [00:41:00] it doesn’t, it isn’t thinking. Okay. Yeah. It isn’t, it is compulsivity. It is a lack of control. It is emotions really driving behavior. Yeah. It has a lot of clinical realities that people aren’t seeing when they just look at the surfacey issue of womanizing or where you went. And I hope this doesn’t sound critical, but where you went with like catcalling and, you know, I don’t, if we’re, you say cat calling, talk about mansplaining is a mm-hmm.
Is a kind of a another piece. Look, we’re talking about clinical level dysfunction here. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s, and it’s really dangerous. Yeah. When it, when it begins to manifest. Yeah. And I
John-Nelson Pope: guess that was my, my point is I don’t think mansplaining is necessarily pathological. I think that’s just, that’s something else.
Chris Gazdik: Oh man. We gotta be super quick here. John. I was, I say, can we cover it real quick? Yeah. Okay. Real quick, mansplaining. I, I will do the chat G p T thing just because I thought I, I was interested to see what they would say. And, and actually [00:42:00] for what it’s worth, chat. G p T said this is not womanizing, it’s something different.
I was surprised by that. Actually. Uhhuh, they define it as behavior where a man speaks condescendingly or patronizingly to a woman about a topic that she likely already knows about. The term can also refer more broadly to a pattern of men speaking over women, interpreting them and disregarding their opinions or expertise.
Yeah. That’s the way it came up with this term.
John-Nelson Pope: Do you agree with
Chris Gazdik: that? I don’t know. What do you say?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I think, I think it, it, that has more of a, of a sense of a, of a cultural chauvinism. And so as opposed to, to having a a womanizing. I mean, that’s, I mean, I think a mansplainer could be a womanizer and, but a, a womanizer doesn’t necessarily have to be a, a man, a mansplainer.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. There is a big difference
Victoria Pendergrass: there. I, I would differentiate with, [00:43:00] I don’t know, and I could be wrong, here, go ahead. But I don’t know if a, a womanizer could be a mansplainer because I feel like at this, they’ve craft, well, they could, I guess they could be, but I feel like if they’ve crafted their art so well to be charismatic and charming, they probably know.
That at least nowadays, well, let’s, I don’t know, maybe not smart womanizer. Yeah. But like 20 years ago, I don’t know. Maybe different or even 10. But like now, I think if you’re a womanizer now, you probably know that like, that’s not gonna work, that women are not gonna put up with mansplain. I mean, if someone tries to mansplain, I’m getting up at walking away, right?
Like, I’m, I’m just, I’m turning my back. I’m gonna finish my drink somewhere else. Like, yeah. You know, and that might just be 20, 23 times, and maybe 2013 would’ve been a little different. A little different when, because I mean, even the term mansplaining is relatively new. I mean, [00:44:00] It is very,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. Like I,
John-Nelson Pope: I think of Ricky Ricardo and saying to Lucy, you have a lot of explaining to do Right.
From I love
Chris Gazdik: Lucy. That’s, yeah. That do not, okay. That’s before your time. Yes. Yes,
Victoria Pendergrass: it is before my time. It’s actually, I do know what it is
Chris Gazdik: before John’s time, he says, oh gosh. I know that was brief. Yeah. And hopefully we’re not upsetting you that we’re not going into that, but I’m just aware of the time and Yeah.
I don’t wanna spend a lot of time there. So you know, it, it’s, it’s interesting to think about the traits and how this kind of perpetuates itself and, you know, why it’s important and the, and the realities of what happens when this begins to go on. I, I, I wanna propose an interesting piece here about trauma because as, as I began to think about this in my own thoughts about the topic, I’m, I’m wondering,
That, [00:45:00] you know, like I think I would maintain, I’ll, I’ll go even a little further than say I’m wondering, but you know, I’ll maintain that trauma’s really right in the middle of a lot of this stuff. Mm-hmm. And I don’t think that goes too far off a limb in the way that of course it’s traumatic when it happens to you.
So I’m not, I’m not saying in, in just that regard, but, but
Victoria Pendergrass: you’re saying the womanizer themselves have, have been through either some sort of trauma traumatic
Chris Gazdik: experience. Right? Right. There, there oftentimes is pre trauma. So either from a woman’s perspective of having already struggled with this in some way and the, and the many effects that come from that, as we’ve kind of alluded to, you know, but, but, but also the guy creating these unhealthy relationships and such.
You know, there, you, you, you look into like, well, what creates this level of clinical dysfunction that people are engaging relationships this way? Again, I was gonna say, yeah, trauma’s gotta be all over that. Sexual trauma physical abuse. You know, we know that narcissism has a lot of abuse history in that, in [00:46:00] that person’s past, so there’s, there’s a lot going on here with, with trauma, I suspect.
I guess I didn’t pose it into a question. I made a case
Victoria Pendergrass: for it. Yeah, no, I mean, I agree. I think that if you would take a womanizer and you look at his, their, they’re relationship with their mom, their relationship, their parents’ relationships, like there’s probably like some sort of, you know, negative.
Attitude towards women or like, you know, and so, yeah. Or that, or that develops from their relationship with their mom, parents,
John-Nelson Pope: whatever. What about a, a, a man, a very charming and powerful man that may have questions about his own masculinity. And so he becomes a Seder basically, and he has multiple sex partners because he’s unsure of his.
Now that’s sort of a psychoanalytic going back to fraud. I mean, Freud. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: So [00:47:00] are you saying Freud is a fraud? I think people
John-Nelson Pope: are revisiting him, not a Freud. Yeah. I think there’s some truth in it, but, but there’s a, there’s a sense that that person is, is driven, you know, to, to, to show and display that he, he is a master of Yeah.
Of his sexuality.
Chris Gazdik: So, and or I agree. And even beyond just sexuality, I, you know, a, a master of himself and stability and control, emotional health and control. Sure. You know, like, it, it gets manifested in a sexual way. Mm-hmm. But I think there’s a lot more going on in the clinical distress. Yeah. I do. Of that person.
Right. They’re, they’re really not. Well, when you’re treating women in, in this sort of horribly degrading and, and abusive,
Victoria Pendergrass: oh yeah. Your mindset is not probably where it needs to be or where it [00:48:00] could be, well, I’m not saying where it should be because we don’t wanna use that word, but where
Chris Gazdik: it could be, where it could be, well, honestly, where it should be because or where it needs to be.
Yeah. Where it needs to be is probably the best way to say, because this. Again, I, I think we’ve alluded to it, you know, when you, when you have a, a, a reception of this type of situation, this is so ho horrifying. I mean, you are so feeling helpless and alone and hurt and just doubtful of yourself. I mean, when you’re, I mean, I’ve never been a victim of this, but I’ve talked to many, many women that are, that are just Oh, so scarred for life.
Mm-hmm. And never really even identifying that this was an inappropriate relationship. Sometimes that happens too. Oh, yeah. You don’t even, you
Victoria Pendergrass: don’t realize it until like 10 years later or something. I mean, until way after. You don’t even know
Chris Gazdik: that this has been so horribly inappropriate and or until they
Victoria Pendergrass: come to therapy and we pointed out for them, oh, hey, it looks like you [00:49:00] encountered a, a womanizer, literally, of some sort, you know?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Very recently for, for me. Yeah. You know, in, in, in sessions and, and that’s been a theme, you know, so, Oh, I just went on a rant on how destructive this is, but I, there’s,
John-Nelson Pope: there’s a, there is a, a sense of a, of a misogyny that that’s there, even if it’s not necessarily the womanizer himself. But there’s a, there’s a sense of devaluing his sexual partners, multiple sexual partners.
Mm-hmm. The, I was thinking about Casanova
Chris Gazdik: Casanova.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Tell us, tell us. Well, he was from Venice and he was in the 18th century. He, he was minor royalty or nobility rather. And he was talking about trauma. He was neglected by his, both his parents never could get the love of his mother or even his grandmother who raised.
And so he [00:50:00] actually wanted to get out of that home life. And so he went and he ended up rising in the ranks and in the courts and of the French court, the Italian courts, that, that sort of thing. And even the German courts.
Chris Gazdik: Is that a lot of what the whole thing was about? Yeah. He was having
John-Nelson Pope: multiple, multiple, multiple affairs with, with people.
And he was, he never, he was empty. He was basically just
Chris Gazdik: you, you’d almost have to be, I mean, you think about this to, to, to, to be in a mindset where this somehow becomes okay to use power and influence over somebody and then, and then engage in a relationship with them where you get what you want, when you want it, because.
I just, it’s horrible. It just doesn’t even seem like something [00:51:00] typically you would want. Yeah. Oh, we have allergies everywhere, Neil. Oh, yeah. Laid it out with sneezing. Well,
John-Nelson Pope: r Kelly’s a rapper and he, he used women. He got underage women like Epstein and just was he, he
Chris Gazdik: would Ooh. I, I just realized, yeah.
You know, another big manifestation that we didn’t talk about yet that needs a mention of the horror of it with sex trafficking uhhuh. Oh, yeah. You know this, oh, that’s a whole
Victoria Pendergrass: topic podcast in
Chris Gazdik: itself, and we have done that, but the, the, the, this leads to the objectification of women and mm-hmm. Sexual harassment and even worse things like human sex, traffick.
Mm-hmm. Yep. Boy, this goes right into that, in, into that direction. Horrible, tough stuff guys. Let’s talk about how we avoid this, right? Yeah. You know, bring it full circle, preventive. How do we get into a preventative mode in being aware of what’s going on and how to, how to [00:52:00] prevent yourself from falling into a relationship.
With somebody who is more of an abuser type and, and how to kind of manage your relationship. If you have this problem, you’re
John-Nelson Pope: yourself. Well, I would think, and, and I think this is a good case for marriage, is premarital counseling.
Chris Gazdik: Indeed.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Before you even so that you start to see the dynamics that might, that you were able to talk with a skilled therapist or mm-hmm.
Or a, or a trained pastoral counselor or something of this sort. One of the things in my, in my many years of ministry is that I, I would know immediately if a marriage was not gonna work and that. That the, the, the man, usually the man says, will not come to, to premarital counseling. I decided long ago I wasn’t gonna do the wedding.
Just Oh, really? Yeah. Because of, of the fact is that [00:53:00] person doesn’t want to, to ex exam, he doesn’t want to examine what’s going on in terms of relationship
Victoria Pendergrass: of like, he’s trying, probably trying to avoid
Chris Gazdik: something. Right, right. Just for the, and just to be clear, what you’re talking about is pre marital the, the, the basic, and I don’t mean to minimize it, John, cause I know you, you do marital counseling and you know, depthy management, but it’s a, a screening.
You’re talking basically a, a, a low level superficial. Premarital thing that a preacher would do that you do for like an hour session, two or three to screen things out. Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s all we’re talking about there. I made ’em jump through hoops. Yeah. You, you, I’m, I’m sure. Yeah. I’m sure you did a little bit more.
Yeah. But you’re right. What you’re saying though, and I think it’s important to differentiate for people listening, right? Like if, if, if you’re not even willing to do just that. Yeah. You know, you don’t even want,
Victoria Pendergrass: and you’re not even married yet, what’s gonna happen when
Chris Gazdik: you get married? [00:54:00] Basic screening.
Mm-hmm. Or a basic thing that you do with, you know, and,
John-Nelson Pope: and that’s, that’s the thing is, is that and I think there also could be education in terms of, of with how you could, and maybe that’s just in terms of, of just let’s say having groups or small groups or something where you’re in a situation where you’re let’s say a a young woman and You you, you learn how to, to see if there’s any type of.
Of, of warning signs and just go over that. Absolutely. So it’s educational psychoeducational.
Chris Gazdik: It’s huge. Yeah, it’s huge. And, and like I’ve actually thought about, you know, maybe it’s something that we get together, John and, and create and work on, you know, a, a a, a sort of a training or a, a, a process for, you know, pastors that are doing this to have something to grab onto.
I know they exist, but not a lot use it yet. Mm-hmm. You [00:55:00] know, with different programs and things because, you know, there are a lot of folks out there out, dare I say, that are not really adept at how to screen or what to look for mm-hmm. And what to do or say. And there a lot is missed. And, and as
John-Nelson Pope: much as I love the, that’s a fair thing to say, that’s a fair thing to say.
And as much as I love certainly those, you’re not gonna get that if you, if you go to the courthouse and get hit. Not no offense. Yeah. Not, no offense to judges or justice
Chris Gazdik: dear of the piece. Yeah. Okay. One of the things, so in avoiding these things going on, There it goes, without being said, but let’s think about it for just a moment.
On a deeper level. Boundaries, right? Yes. Boundaries. Yeah. What do we mean by boundaries in respecting boundaries and setting boundaries? And we have done whole shows on this as well. A lot of these shows bleed together. But how important is it to be able to set a boundary and then to respect a boundary or to feel that your boundary is [00:56:00] respected or accepted?
Right. When you’re beginning to meet and greet and you know, boy meets girl.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’ll tell my clients a lot that, and I heard, I’m not taking credit for this, saying, I did not come up with this saying, but I cannot tell you for the life of me who did. Gotcha. But I tell them that sometimes, or all the time, most of the time, a boundary without a consequence is just a heavy suggestion.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, I like that. I have not heard that. Say that again?
Victoria Pendergrass: A boundary without a consequence is just a heavy suggestion.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. You can put that, that did not show notes me. That is show notes, quotes, Victoria noted, but although she said she didn’t create it. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: But I mean, and I think a lot, and a lot of times I see clients open their eyes like, wow, I’ve never thought about that.
Because yeah, if you’re not, if you create a boundary and you, the person or whoever you create that boundary with does not stick to it. You know, [00:57:00] the problem, like if I, I know this is say screaming
Chris Gazdik: red flag. Yeah. Like if I, particularly in the beginning of, of getting to
Victoria Pendergrass: know someone. Yeah, yeah. Especially in romantic relationship.
Well, I mean, in all aspects of your life, but especially in romantic relationships. If, if you set a simple, well, all boundaries need to be respected. But if you set just a simple boundary of like, Okay. We’re gonna take things slow or whatever the boundary may be. And you’re trying to like hop in bed with me.
The fir the first night. Like, dude, I’ve already, you gotta run. Yeah. Like you need to run. Yeah. If you can’t listen to a simple thing I said of like, even though we might be extremely attracted to each other Yeah. Or whatever, like you gotta run. Yeah. You know, you’ve gotta have consequences because when you don’t, it’s just heavy suggestion.
And then they th they know that they can continue to, it sets up a
Chris Gazdik: precedent. Yeah. I
John-Nelson Pope: suspect Just a thought though, before people end up let’s say they, they move in as partners or they, they get married and then they, [00:58:00] they have the slandering husband or or partner that, that, that’s occurring before they even get into that serious relationship and they can Oh, yeah.
Not the first time. And so part of that is that mentality, which I can change him. I can fix him. Ooh,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. I’m glad this came up. Yeah. You know, with that for sure, that does happen.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. And it, and that’s because, and, and I think women culturally, I think
Victoria Pendergrass: are more nurturing. No, yeah. We’re fixers. Fixers
John-Nelson Pope: and there’s a nurturing aspect.
Yeah. And so there, there’s a sense you, you like that person that’s charismatic and could be the bad boy or something like that. And you suspect that and you think, well, once you know, I’ve, I’m, I’m in a relationship with him and a it’ll be different. Committed. It’ll be different. It won’t be different.
Victoria Pendergrass: That’s I will say side note, that’s how a lot of times with [00:59:00] pregnancy, women think, oh, if I’ll, if I get pregnant and have a kid with him, he’s gonna change.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: That is a
Chris Gazdik: no, not,
Victoria Pendergrass: not likely not. Yeah. Who he, who he is when you marry him or who they are, or who she, whoever your partner is, when they marry him, is most likely gonna be the person.
Which is also that they are into the marriage. And once you have kids,
Chris Gazdik: which is ultimately part of a, a, a massively important piece of a healthy marriage. Right. Accepting your spouse as they are. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, that’s something that we struggle with. True. A lot of people struggle with that. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m 40 years on and I’m, you know, I’m still still having a hard
Victoria Pendergrass: time.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m still Yeah. Because I’ll want to change her and she wants to change me. Right. And,
Chris Gazdik: I appreciate that, that genuineness. Yeah. It, and I struggle with that, you know, parental and maritally, you know, tremendously I’ve given up. Let me say that again.
I came out Well, I struggle with that [01:00:00] parental maritally tremendously. Yeah. You know? True. It’s, it’s, I like that, Lee. Yeah. So let’s move on. That goes along with that you. Honesty and transparency. Mm-hmm. Being a major component in avoiding getting into this dynamic of, of abuse and, and, and vi sexual violence or womanizing, you know, remember the, the attachment style here is very insecure attachment There.
Their, their level of commitment is shallow. It is a very difficult thing to, to follow through with promises that are made that, that are actually kept, you know, the, the slowing and the development of trust is, is important.
John-Nelson Pope: So if it’s true with narcissism in, in that sense, that person is, unless that person gets that positive feedback that you’re wonderful, you’re great, you could do no wrong.
That person will feel unloved and unvalued and doesn’t have himself centered [01:01:00] in, in, in, in his life. Yes.
Chris Gazdik: So the, the, the, the way this looks and to go against that, John, or, or with that to go against the grain, you know, when you’re really, you know, date 3, 4, 5 or whatever, getting to know this person and beginning a relationship you need to be able to tell them some things that you don’t like, right?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You need to be able to tell them. With a level of honesty and, and, and, and transparency that, you know, this is really where I’m coming from and I don’t like that you did that or said that. Well, and
Victoria Pendergrass: that leads into
Chris Gazdik: communication. Yeah. Yes, he does. Oh, that’s, communication
John-Nelson Pope: is key. So the womanizer doesn’t have that, even though he uses communication, he, he twist it.
He twist it, but he really doesn’t know how to communicate. Authentically.
Chris Gazdik: Authentically is the key. Yeah. There. But he can’t, I wanna highlight that because they can communicate, remember charisma, you know, charm. Mm-hmm. And Gotcha. You know, impression. But it’s shallow. It’s shallow. We’re [01:02:00] talking about authentically, and that’s why I just.
You know, my thoughts here, you know, communication issues, you know, in so far as attachment styles and, you know, the, the, the revelation, the reciprocation boundary control, emotion management, all of that goes into, you know, what we’re talking about with, like, they struggle with communication. Mm-hmm. Like you will see very shortness, very terseness if something’s wrong or they may shut down and totally turn cold shoulder.
And I mean, these are some of the things that happened with narcissism again, episode 1 76. You gotta check that out to get a, a full breath on that. But yeah, we’re, we’re,
John-Nelson Pope: and and when you say shut down, it’s like the person could be very secretive about his use of his smartphone. Mm-hmm. And makes it so that the spouse.
Chris Gazdik: History. History or their, their family or their experiences, you’ll, you’ll get, you know, e easy quick brush offs on mm-hmm. Inquiries that you would make and whatnot, cuz they’re just not wanting to be known. You get [01:03:00] the runaround. The runaround, they’re not wanting to be seen emotionally. It’s very scary to them.
Is mm-hmm. Is, is why So the, it’s an important topic. I, I’m, I’m, I’m glad I’m hearing our conversation with a lot of the back and forth that we’ve had. I mean, I, I, I think this is is one where our experience played out more in what we see clinically. Directly with people,
John-Nelson Pope: and I want to compliment Victoria.
Okay, thanks. You’re, you’re a very wise person. I wish I were as wise at your age then, because I think you’ve, you really, you, you, you’re able to encapsulate where I would go on and on and on. Mm-hmm. There was a sense very succinctly. Oh, thank you.
Victoria Pendergrass: Say things you, do you think you can pass that along to my husband?
No, I’m
Chris Gazdik: just kidding. He’s listening. I am sure. I am sure. No, I, I agree. John. Yeah. Victoria, you’re, you’re, thank you. At, at this point in your career? I, I, I think of when I was there and it’s, it’s so fun to [01:04:00] watch you grow. And I
Victoria Pendergrass: was gonna say, we have lots of talks about this. We can, when I bring, when I bring an issue to Chris, he’s like, Ooh, I’m so excited you’re finally getting to encounter this da.
Like, I’m so excited that you’re finally getting to, like, experience this. That makes me think back when I, yeah. I, I remember when I first experienced That does,
Chris Gazdik: that’s so funny.
Victoria Pendergrass: Which, yeah. I mean, I think it’s, I think the, we’re getting kind of off top. I think the practice here allows me with such different mindsets and different stages in everyone’s career, I think that allows me to be able to gain a lot of information and learn a lot.
All
Chris Gazdik: of y’all. Well, again I’ll, I’ll take us outta here today, guys. You know, this is the human emotional experience and we want to endeavor to figure this out together. And, and that that isn’t just a phrase that, that is really a truism. I, I am learning when I sit down with you in a therapy session about you and about the circumstances as you are [01:05:00] with, you know, from maybe some information I may have, and talking to y’all and doing the show, I’ve learned so much constantly.
Mm-hmm. Ever evolving. That’s just such an important thing to recognize as we’re all learning together. That’s, that’s why I love that phrase and use it every time. Listen, womanizing is a tough thing to engage to. Engaged on or with. I really want to highlight again, if, if, if any level of this has happened or you even wonder if this has happened, make an inquiry.
Talk to your friends, talk to your supports, talk to professionals as well if needed. Because being alone and ensnared or entrapped, feeling helpless and stuck in a relationship that is not feeling mutually respectful and safe, emotionally or physically is not okay, and that needs to be stopped. So I hope that you’ve got some information [01:06:00] today, some of our conversation has helped you to think about things and reach out.
Please definitely do reach out and so we can continue to grow and learn about this together. Guys, take care. Be well and we’ll see you next week. Be well.