In this episode, we explore the fascinating dynamics of codependency and compassion, inspired by Claudia Black’s groundbreaking work. From personal stories to parenting insights, we uncover how codependent behaviors develop and their pitfalls, while also delving into the intriguing concept of counter-dependency. Through a compassionate lens, we discuss setting boundaries and fostering healthy relationships, offering practical tips for navigating these emotional terrains.
Tune in to see when Compassion gets Confused with Codependence Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Do you know what co dependence is?
- Think of examples in life of this.
- What is the opposite of codependent?
- Links referenced during the show:
- https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rave-reviews-for-MedChat—muscle-in–through-menopause.html?soid=1133427878763&aid=7lUjKRuzWpo
- https://www.ashleytreatment.org/rehab-blog/what-is-counter-dependency/
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #263 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes. Gettin close to f Oh, I don’t even want to say that out loud to these people. Can we just start over? I just screwed up. Anyway, never mind. I know y’all don’t know what I’m thinking about, but that’s by design. Anyway. February the 22nd is the date today. And huh?
You’re going to
Victoria Pendergrass: start doing songs now, too. I mean, I’m wearing a Taylor Swift shirt today. Oh, dear.
Chris Gazdik: Gee, she is wearing a Taylor Swift song. Wow. I don’t even know what to do. This, this intro is completely screwed up. We are going to be talking about compassion, getting confused with codependence. We have John Pope with us.
How are you, sir? I’m doing outstanding. Thank you. And Ms. Victoria Pendergrass already pre established as a Taylor Swift. My hair.
Victoria Pendergrass: I changed my part. I feel like I’m Yeah, [00:01:00] it looks
Chris Gazdik: very nice. You look fairly nice. I
That’s a lot. You, I
John-Nelson Pope: heard, overheard you talking about that and I did not want to interject. And, and I think it looks very nice.
Chris Gazdik: It’s a lot. I almost need to see a before and after thing in the way my brain works. So what do we need to say? This is where you get insights directly from a panel of therapists in your home and time in your car, but not delivery of therapy services in any way. The three questions that we want you to think about today are do you know what codependence is?
Think of examples of this, like real down to dirt, down to day to day examples. Like, do you really know how this works out potentially in life? An interesting question. I can’t wait till we get to that segment and talk about, I’m curious what the panel’s going to say about what is the opposite of codependence, [00:02:00] right?
Like that’s simmer in the back. I want to get into that, right? That’s it’s a, it’s a different take on it. And I was doing show prep and I thought, well, we don’t want to be codependent. So if we don’t want to be codependent, what are we opposite? What are we? What is the goal?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, it’s so what is the positive?
of a verse of
Chris Gazdik: that. Right. So I think that’ll be fascinating, honestly. Very excited to have the book coming out. I, I need to get with Neil. I need to get with you, man. And we got cover designs. That’s pretty cool. Yeah, I saw the cover today. Yeah, we just did. I really like it. Yeah. So we got, we got a choice.
That, that we want to, you know, maybe do a poll, play around with that kind of thing, and, and, and we got two different, I know, we like the one. Don’t, don’t say which one, the one we like. I won’t like it. I mean, I won’t, I won’t like it. You won’t like it.
John-Nelson Pope: Does it have the eyeball? It does have the eyeball. Oh yeah, yeah, it’s the same.
Now, you know how long it took him to decide on the eyeball?
Chris Gazdik: But [00:03:00] do you remember
John-Nelson Pope: this? Yes. It was forever. Do you like this? Do you like this? Do you like this? And I felt like I was in a an ophthalmologist office.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Option
Victoria Pendergrass: one or option two? Well, the
Chris Gazdik: publishers gave me, like, all these eyes. I’m like, I
Victoria Pendergrass: mean, it’s a big decision.
It’s like going to print forever.
Chris Gazdik: Right? Right, right. So, it’s coming together in that regard. I now have a sense that it’ll be at the end of the year, which should be just in time for
Christmas presents and all that kind of stuff. So that’s, that’s working out to be a lot cooler than the first. So proud of you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That’s very kind of you. John, what do we need them to do with stars and clickings and all this kind of stuff? Give us five
John-Nelson Pope: stars.
Chris Gazdik: Yes, it helps us out tremendously. We’re pushing to get YouTube subscribers. We want to get up to a thousand. And Neil, I actually thought we might need to do like a 24 hour show.
That’s what that’s what a podcast we did. You had mentioned it. I’ve
Victoria Pendergrass: mentioned in the [00:04:00] past. Y’all down to do like a 24 hour one But a just a live
Chris Gazdik: stream Until we get no I’m subscribed. You’re gonna
John-Nelson Pope: have you’re gonna have some stuff here with a hat And sunglasses and it will not be me.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, okay. Who is that?
Well,
John-Nelson Pope: it’ll just be a stuffed oh, you’re
Chris Gazdik: saying I
John-Nelson Pope: want a mannequin because I, I don’t know if I could
Chris Gazdik: get you more Dunkin Donuts, coffee, contact it through a therapist eyes. com is the way that you contact us. This is the human emotional experience. We do endeavor to do this together, figure it. First Horizon is our sponsor.
We love them being on board. They are awesome. What do you remember about First Horizon Bank?
Victoria Pendergrass: They’re based out of Memphis. You got it. They’re very, they have over 400. Yeah, very person first. 330. John, let’s say
Chris Gazdik: 400. We’re
Victoria Pendergrass: overestimating. They really care [00:05:00] about your financial
Chris Gazdik: literacy. John’s going to his book.
He wants to, he wants to confirm or deny this number. I want to find out. Sorry, I interrupted
Victoria Pendergrass: you. I was just saying they really care about financial literacy and making sure that you’re making the best decisions for your financial needs and
Chris Gazdik: wants. So First Horizon Bank, thanks for supporting us. Go support them.
So I have a current event and I’m doing this just because I, we did a show on, on menopause and anytime, honestly, I’ve made a pledge in my own brain, I’m going to come, come clean with you listening. You the listener. I’m going to come clean and say I’ve kind of figured out any time for a little while I see this in my sphere on what news program, paper, a magazine an email whatever, wherever I happen to see it, I want to bring that up because I think it’s a national dialogue that’s really just beginning.
I am going to exclude commercials because I see the. The commercials for new medicines. Have you noticed that? Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: [00:06:00] yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I’ve noticed them more now that we’ve talked about menopause. Yeah. I’m just like, Oh,
Chris Gazdik: okay. I think you notice it because it’s brand new. There used
John-Nelson Pope: to be I guess it was a medication, it was over the counter.
It was called Pamperin. I remember remember that? Because you’re
Chris Gazdik: a woman. Right. Yeah. Great. I do remember that. You’re welcome.
John-Nelson Pope: And it showed a very bitchy woman.
Chris Gazdik: I don’t remember that. It took her
John-Nelson Pope: pampering and she was fine. Oh, really? Yeah, it was very demeaning of females. Are you serious?
Chris Gazdik: Wow. Yeah, well, it is a new dialogue because I think you’re kind of making my brain work there, John, in saying that When hormone replacement therapy was new, it got demonized unfairly because of the research study.
We’ve talked about that on the show before. And during that time, when was that? Like late 80s or something, right? Yeah, it was a little bit more like mentioned. Then it went away for 20 years. [00:07:00] Right. I wonder why.
John-Nelson Pope: I don’t know. It’s so strange. Okay. I guess there was the, the, the there was the studies with increased cancers, HRT.
Chris Gazdik: We talked about why those increased cancers were, that was a farce, sort of a premise study that that was done. Anyway, the the current event is that I happen to see on my medical provider’s regular newsletter They had a a a piece that they had written about Menopause and I thought that was really cool and it was about the hormone replacement treatment options But still it was just it was on a regular newsletter.
I thought that was that was noteworthy So super quick current event because we have another section mentor moment that we wanted to get to before we got to our topic. So what you got?
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay, so this week and you know, I usually bring up things that are occurring in my day to day [00:08:00] Job, but I was curious on kind of how what are y’all’s kind of game plan like how do you first approach a Couple who has dealt with cheating or infidelity like I know we every therapist is different They kind of you know The things they cover what they talk about kind of at the beginning or like they’re kind of process for working through With couples like where do you go?
So I was kind of curious on like what y’all do when it comes to cheating slash infidelity within Not just a marriage, but any kind of like romantic relationship
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I, I think you have to be listened very carefully. I think if, if, if there’s a lot of philandering going on cheating on, on the male’s part, is there’s, is there something deeper rooted within him that’s, that’s causing
that that he may be cheating as a [00:09:00] result of of being a compulsively doing this.
Right. So it’d be satirism, I guess would be yeah. Named after the satyr, which is from Greek and, and Roman mythology. Very cool word. Yes. Very, very much. And so part of that is, is that the other is, is to be able to reestablish if, if, if there is room for treatment and, and working is to be able to to reestablish trust.
I’ve got to say. That it’s very difficult, at least in my experience working with couples, and forgiveness, and being able to really, can I really trust my spouse with this? Right, moving forward. Moving forward. And, and I think in that aspect, it’s also true for the for the male, if the female has has, has cheated.
And so is to go back to fundamentals and, [00:10:00] and just sort of break it down and, and, and go from the
Chris Gazdik: get go. What do you mean break it down, go to fundamentals?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I, I think then is that where did they, how did they establish their, their relationship to begin with their marriage? Right. And if, if there’s always been some questions and doubt in their minds and that sort of thing, that, that hurt is going to keep reappearing in itself.
And so you have to be very listen very hard. And, and listen to their stories and then say, okay, how do we, we, how do we build again and build this marriage and the relationship? And it may mean for a while that, that let’s say the man has to leave in this case, the man cheating leaving leaving the house for some time before he can come back.
Victoria Pendergrass: So you think that’s sometimes okay to do? Like to, well, is it, do you ever advise [00:11:00] like that?
John-Nelson Pope: I’m a counselor. I don’t give advice.
Victoria Pendergrass: But do you ever suggest
John-Nelson Pope: or, yeah, we talk about that. We discuss. But it’s an option if it’s, if that’s the decision because there might be a part that that wound is so fresh, so raw that every time that person comes in, they’re reliving it.
They’re reliving it. And they’re re traumatized over and over again. And then the other thing is just. that and God forbid if the Children are used as weapons, right? You know, weaponize the Children.
Chris Gazdik: So I think I’d like to kind of take a not a different track, but I’d like to parse it just a touch because I think there’s, there’s two pieces that go onto this.
And a lot of times what you’re going to get. get is this is in the initial start of a, a couple’s counseling experience, right? Sometimes it comes in the middle of a relationship of [00:12:00] a therapy relationship, but oftentimes it’s that’s why they’re here often. Yes. And so I like to think of it as two very different components.
One is. is infidelity recovery. And the other is, as you say, fundamentals job, right? Like getting at what got you here. And, and of course you’re doing assessments all the while, if something’s burning and rotting at somebody in there, like you just said, you have to deal with that. Yeah. That has to be the primary issue because safety always first emotional safety is much as physical.
But if you get away from the moment. with the reality of an affair. And you get at the patterns, is where I always want to go. Then you can really begin to understand what got us here. And a primary question that needs to be answered from the cheating spouse is what led you to do this, what unmet need was there for you.
But that moves into the recovery of the [00:13:00] marriage, which I agree, John, is difficult. However, I’d like to make a really clear highlight. very, very possible. As a matter of fact, oftentimes I have seen people overcome this and young couples would think that never be possible, but it absolutely is. And so you got to start, I think, with the foundations because people will be raging on situations.
And if it’s not the infidelity as the part, it’s the fight that was the part or it was the family challenge. That was the issue. Couples love to be issue driven, right? I want to get out of the issue driven mess. Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: that makes sense. So is there anything that y’all specifically avoid when working with couples?
Like, do you avoid, like, is there, does that make sense? Is there anything that you Don’t do. Like, you make sure that
Chris Gazdik: you don’t do anything. Actually, another really comes to mind. I don’t, I don’t know [00:14:00] what, what would you think we wouldn’t do?
Victoria Pendergrass: Like, for me, I think about, I try not to let myself, I don’t really have an issue with it, but let the couple, like, blame the other person for why they cheated.
Like I did this because of you.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I mean that that but that gets at the patterns. I mean, yeah, you know sure
Victoria Pendergrass: I just wasn’t sure if there was anything that y’all like typically in that
Chris Gazdik: way Yeah, I
John-Nelson Pope: think answer my question her ranging And I think that’s where let’s say when I’ve had some I’m more colorful clients that there, there’s a lot of blaming and that has to stop.
You just can’t have that.
Chris Gazdik: Right. Yeah. It’s that you just go into a complete rabbit hole for a while with that. But that’s cool. Yeah. Helpful. Cool. I love the topic and I wanted to get at that because I think that there’s some cool things in getting right into the marriage world and
Victoria Pendergrass: what I think is also interesting whenever we do this is like.
Seeing y’all’s different [00:15:00] viewpoints and like how y’all do like even just here like y’all but like he kind of approaches a little bit differently than you did like, you know, and just seeing how I like that.
Chris Gazdik: It’s
John-Nelson Pope: like going to the good bones, breaking it down, going to the building back up.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I love that.
That is an awesome metaphor. Get the good bones and build them. Okay. So compassion tends to get confused with codependency or codependency tends to get confused with compassion. And I said it the wrong way. I wanted to correct myself because I, I, I, I thought this was a cool way to talk about the
marriage. And relationships, and substance abuse realities, mixing them together because we hadn’t really talked about some of those things in a little bit. Also, in your honor, Victoria, I did in my mind like a total ADD thing. If you realize, like, our topics had nothing to do with each other this month.
Did you guys notice that? [00:16:00] We started with ADD, then we went to professionalism, and now we’re like on codependence. It’s like totally unrelated. Well, I did that on purpose though. Usually I try to Link them together and, you know, build off things a little bit, but this is, this is like random, random, random.
You’re not impressed. Well,
Victoria Pendergrass: I think that’s okay. I don’t know why you’re bringing it up.
Chris Gazdik: Because my brain works that way. Okay, people will think they’re being compassionate. Right. When they’re actually falling into codependent traits. But I love him. That’s a little bit of my premise, right? What do you mean by that, John?
Why that?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, that’s where the person would let’s say that is having the person is that they’re in a relationship with is maybe drinking to excess or using drugs or another example would be cheating and saying that I’m going to, I’m going to help [00:17:00] improve him. I’m going to make him better.
I cannot believe how many people say that still. It is amazing. It is amazing. Well, I thought I could help him and But it’s more there’s their need to, to belong and to be accepted by somebody, the codependent,
Chris Gazdik: the codependent need to belong and be accepted. Yeah, it’s,
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m just wondering, do you, cause I know you’re specific, like you specifically mentioned.
Relationships, but I recently had a client who it was like a light bulb in their brain when I mentioned that they possibly had a codependent relationship with the co worker. Hmm. Oh, okay. They were like. I mean, it was one of those cool moments from my side where you like, see the light bulb go off in their head and they were like, they finally, and they were like, Oh my gosh, like, I think you’re right.
Like, I think I’ve had a codependent relationship or still [00:18:00] have a codependent relationship, like with this coworker and and we worked through it and we talked about it and it was just so like, I think. Is that a one
John-Nelson Pope: off though? Do you think that that person may also have a other relationship? Oh yeah, no,
Victoria Pendergrass: I told her.
I said you must, well, she definitely, yeah. That was
Chris Gazdik: going to be my question, John. Victoria, I bet you were thinking about codependency, seeing it in marriage or whatever, and then see it here and you plied it there. Oh yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, we also talked about, we also talked about how You know, they are probably codependent in other, in their romantic relationship as well and like in other relationships in their life.
And so we talked about it and I think that that’s important for people to realize is. It’s codependency doesn’t just happen. I mean, we talked about that one kid that I have that were, I’m like 90 percent sure that they’re codependent with their, one of their parents. Right. And so, like it’s not just romantic relationships that you can find yourself in a codependency relationship.
It’s codependency with, I love
Chris Gazdik: that you did that and let us there, Victoria, because [00:19:00] that’s, that’s a part of what I want us to think here today about is codependency has become one of these buzzwords in the public nowadays, which I love, but, but we need to, they mean something to us and we need to be accurate about how we’re understanding what’s going on and what we do about it because people get very confused about it and it does happen.
And that’s why I said in the. front end, the day to day, the real routine parts of life, and t
plays out with somebody at work there, you know, and, and you can, you could really work with that. Yeah. And you did in, in session there. So, definitions, it’s funny because producer Neil, he went and got a definition for us. I actually left it blank and he went to dictionary. com. So I guess in your honor, Neil, I will read it cause I just had it in my own head. He found co dependence excessive emotional or physio psychological reliance on a partner.
The key word there is [00:20:00] excessive. Typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction. So I want to talk about that a little bit. But I, but I went and got the definition for compassion because listen to how it’s different. The genuine concern for others well being. Accompanied by a desire to alleviate their suffering and promote growth.
I can see where people get that real confused. For sure.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right? I feel like I would even get that confused. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: The way that I have found to define definition of codependence I think cuts through the level of confusion. Okay. Right? Go. Shoot. If I’m codependent on John, I am well. Right? John, if you are well, then I am well.
But John, if you are not well, then I am not well. Yeah. So my effort, goal, behavior is designed to make you well. So that I [00:21:00] will be well. You’re gonna fix me. I’m gonna fix you. I’m gonna make it right. I’m gonna solve the problem. You know, like, I need to make you well. Mm hmm. ’cause it’s about me being well and that has nothing to do with having compassion for John.
Right. I’m not
John-Nelson Pope: compassionate for you. It’s all I gotta be me, , it’s all about me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: That,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah. Yeah. And I think the key word there is that you say is that you need John to be well so that you can be well because it is ultimately, it’s kind of like a in the codependence role. Fakeness of I’m what?
He’s of being selfless. You’re it’s see like from an outside I can see where you kind of would tell yourself like if you’re you know You’re the code like oh, I’m being selfless. Like I just want John to be well Did it but it’s really actually a selfish thing because you want John to be well so that you can be well And the
Chris Gazdik: trouble is is the persons don’t really [00:22:00] realize that that that’s happening
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh, yeah, my client when we talked about the fact that they go to bed I mean just the look on their face was like Oh my gosh.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah. This is one of the,
John-Nelson Pope: one of the things is as a minister as well and, and at seminary, we, we talked about that quite a bit. Just in my, as I was studying as we were studying pastoral care and, and all that is that a minister has to be very careful not to believe the. The propaganda or what somebody says about them because they find themselves being did you like my sermon?
Did you like? Look at what I’ve done. Look at all these
Chris Gazdik: things. We codependent yourself. Yeah, I’m codependent. Yeah Well as a young therapist, I mean I could totally remember being like, you know, I’m doing a good job Did I do something wrong? You know, how could I have done that better? You know, I [00:23:00] don’t want to damage anybody’s life.
You know? Oh, I
Victoria Pendergrass: can remember times where I went to Casey. And was like, yeah who has been on the podcast before and been like, I don’t know what I’m doing. And she’s like, okay, like walk me through it. And she’s like, you already know what to do. You just have to like, believe that you can do it. There’s a little bit of like imposter syndrome mixed in there.
Chris Gazdik: Certainly. Yes, certainly. There’s a little bit of codependence mixed in with that because if, if, if as a professional or clients not well, we’re not well. Yeah. Yeah. And another really, I’m a really good therapist. No, everybody’s not. Right. Yeah. Really, really not.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh. The difference between empathy and compassion is that we’re not going there to today.
We can’t,
Chris Gazdik: we need to. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: No, I’m just, I’m just saying that that empathy takes it even a further step, but we can talk about that later. I think the, the, the thing is, is that you hear about therapists developing [00:24:00] compassion fatigue or healthcare providers. Absolutely. That’s because they’re codependent.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, think about that. You’re on point.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay. I think you might just need to repeat that
John-Nelson Pope: first. Okay. Well, I think that
Chris Gazdik: when you hear first of all, compassion fatigue is a term we know that for people that are in the helping profession.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, they get burned out. You get burned out. And, and so you’re not doing the self care.
You’re trying to fix other people. You’re not taking and tending to your own needs. You empty out the reserves your stores of, of, of, of, of, of wellbeing in yourself. And so you and you feel like you’re a failure if you don’t fix this person. I think there, there was a TV show back 40 years ago, it was called MASH.
And remember, you remember, okay, well, all the doctors, the only person that was healthy and well [00:25:00] balanced, I think was the chaplain, Father Mulcahy. You would say that? Yeah, I would. But, but they all were did had all this compassion fatigue all the time. And I think that’s why and their boundaries, they were losing their boundaries of themselves trying to save people.
Chris Gazdik: Interesting. You know, I didn’t, I don’t, I’m going to say I didn’t really overtly maybe in, in somewhere in there, make the connection between codependence. And compassion fatigue. I think you’re on to something that’s those are really linked, aren’t they? Yeah, I think so. That’s that’s a weird thing for us professionals.
I would imagine to really admit, you know
Victoria Pendergrass: Yes, something we wouldn’t normally want to
Chris Gazdik: mm hmm, and I’ll give you another one to really deeply understand this I know I used this on the show before but to hit you the listener into this and thinking well That’s other people not me not so fast. I want you to
think about it for a minute The compassion fatigue being looks like a parent being kind to their [00:26:00] kid, but unfortunately making themselves what the client is, is the same thing that you probably do because I’m with you, you know, as a parent, parents want their kids to be well.
Why do they really want their kids to be Well? ’cause it makes their life easier and that makes me well, right? Yeah. When my kids think about it, sitting happy,
Victoria Pendergrass: eating his food, think about it, doing his thing. , I’m in a much better mood,
Chris Gazdik: right? I mean, Victoria, you’re right in the middle of this, I think as, as the little kids.
But I just had, you know, very proud papa here. For sure. Guys, you know my, oh, yes.
Victoria Pendergrass: Congratulations.
Chris Gazdik: Thank you. My son just graduated Navy boot camp. Hoorah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I talked to him about that. Actually. He agreed with you, John. It’s okay for me to say it. I’m just, I’m still trying to get that together. But I mean, the thing is, is I want him to do well.
And, and to let go, I mean, [00:27:00] you know, he’s going to be in a duty station away from us for a while and, you know, can I still be okay even if he’s struggling in boot camp, in misery? If the Steelers were winning, I’d have done a lot better the last couple of months, but Are you codependent on the Steelers? I am codependent on the Pittsburgh Steelers.
But you see what we’re after? Like, you know, how well can you tolerate your kid struggling if you’re codependent? Not much. And we all fall into that trap. Like, you get, you get sucked into this. I would argue that there’s almost a universal experience in a parent child relationship with a codependent thread.
Victoria Pendergrass: Okay, so then, how do you break that up? How do you break the cycle of like, like when you
Chris Gazdik: Well, there you go, yeah. Now we’re foreshadowing into,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah. Like, how do you How do we manage that? If I realize, as a mother of a two year old, almost two year old Almost two already?
Precocious. April 2nd, yeah. [00:28:00] Like, how, how, if I realize that I’m codependent on my child.
Likely. Then, like, how do I stop that? Yeah. And I think that’s the big question for people is, like, okay. And that’s what we talked about with my client. Like, now that we can address it. Now that we can admit that, like, this is a thing that’s happening. But I would
Chris Gazdik: argue, first of all, Victoria, we have to become aware that we’re doing it.
Right,
John-Nelson Pope: yeah. I knew I knew some maybe not so much as now, but as I was of that age was that there were women that that did not feel like they were truly women and mothers unless they nursed and breastfed breastfed. And so there was a sense of being codependent on, on, you know, am I a successful mother?
Yeah. Maybe I’m stretching a little
Victoria Pendergrass: bit, but actually as someone who did breastfeed, I can totally
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I’m sure you can empathize with [00:29:00] that. But I’m wondering, John, I’m curious. I was just kind of trying to differentiate that. Is that something different? Is that the imposter syndrome you’re talking about, Victoria?
Like, I’m failing in some way. Rather than codependently, I am what the other person is. I hear what you’re saying. I think she
John-Nelson Pope: was, in this case it was, what will other people think of me? Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: If I can’t breastfeed. If I can’t breastfeed. If you belong to the
John-Nelson Pope: Lelechi League and you can’t
Chris Gazdik: breastfeed. And
John-Nelson Pope: that was a big thing back in the 80s, was the Lelechi League.
And if you weren’t breastfeeding, you
Chris Gazdik: were bad, you were bad shame. Yeah, there are other things I think mix in with this, but in the purest sense, which may be a little interject this, I mean, we need to understand a little bit of history with what this word is. And John, I think you know it well from the histories of the substance abuse field.
That’s where we get the term in the fifties and sixties. We learned a lot about [00:30:00] addiction. And so this is an addictions term that we figured out more in the 70s and 80s when people like Claudia Black did work on family dynamics in addiction. And so you hear a kissing cousin or a subset of codependence is the word, enabling.
So you’ve heard of enabling. Well, codependence is like a, or enabling is a form of codependence. And this is all about Alcoholic, drug addict, crazy person, spouse, usually is highly codependent. I would almost say universally, and that is taking away the problems, you know, figuring out all of the complications.
Buying the alcohol even you get all kinds of going
John-Nelson Pope: to the ABC store doing that
Chris Gazdik: Calling the boss when the you’re hungover like there’s all of these crazy behaviors that happened in those [00:31:00] relationships Thus the term codependent was born
John-Nelson Pope: And I think that is, it’s very pernicious. And I think in terms of sometimes even moms and dads are codependent with their kids and buying into their drug abuse.
And I think you’ll see a lot more of that now particularly with the fentanyl crisis and the opiates, but alcohol as
Chris Gazdik: well. Well, listen it’s, it’s, this is such a powerful. Like kind of connector that I don’t think you can have an alcoholic That is married to somebody who’s not codependent like it’s super rare now, right?
When a parent has a child that becomes chemically dependent in some way You get induced into like you get it’s almost an irresistible force Yeah, it’s that
powerful that you get into these crazy behaviors and you’re like, you know Why am I dumping stuff down the drain like who does that [00:32:00] right?
Codependent people do so I’m just trying to say like we fall into these traits very powerfully because the behavior with alcohol and drugs is
John-Nelson Pope: so loud. And then there’s the natural biological bonds of wanting to protect your child. Right. Absolutely. And you want to do anything for your child and that basically can, can make you sick and make you unwell.
Chris Gazdik: And this is why I say in parenting. Not as dramatic as substance abuse families, you parents, all you parents out there have a thread, I should say all of us parents out there and in here, we have a thread of this and you have to guard against it. Yeah, so that’s a little bit of the history and what happens really with parenting for sure Oh, I I said, yeah, how does this develop naturally victoria?
You talked about that, right? Like, you know, is do you find this are you finding [00:33:00] this? How, how is this beginning to sort of take shape, you know, it’s so, it’s so early on
Victoria Pendergrass: and it might be because I’m a therapist, even though we are our own worst clients. Oh, we are, we suck just like how doctors are the patients.
I suck at this at home. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, yeah. Why do you think most therapists have their own therapist? Like, yeah. But I think, dang it. I said it. What?
Chris Gazdik: It’s okay. I missed it. I said the word. Oh no. You didn’t, you didn’t, you didn’t do the did you? I did.
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh dear. But,
Chris Gazdik: in
John-Nelson Pope: my pers Make it into a zen. I
Victoria Pendergrass: think I’m experiencing it now.
Or at least trying to prevent it. Especially as my kid gets older and is talking more. And he’s able to actually communicate how he’s feeling. Then I feel like I
am. Trying, or at least going to try to be [00:34:00] proactive with, with my husband as well. Although I would probably say it tends to run in mothers.
What is that wrong? Disagree. But yeah, work with my husband to like make sure that we don’t fall into the trap of like becoming codependent. On our kid and also creating an environment where our kid doesn’t become codependent on us.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, you’re gonna have so many opportunities to develop codependency.
Chris Gazdik: What’s that, John? I think you got it. Yeah, make,
John-Nelson Pope: yeah, know that you’ll have so many opportunities to become codependent. Yes. Mutually codependent.
Chris Gazdik: Guard against many moments.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. And I think I guess also like just being aware of it is a great way to
Chris Gazdik: Well, you said something there when I get back. I know we maybe got you off track.
It, what’s, I sort of postulated in my mind when I was framing how to cover this. from an interesting angle of compassion being confused with [00:35:00] codependency. And then I was looking at the history of codependency. I thought it is naturally a part of parenting that people miss. And I thought, Oh my God, Victoria is fascinatingly right in the middle of this developing.
And I figured there was stuff that we might. Trigger or think about given that reality and you did what I just suspected we would be able to do as the child, because I, this is totally new in my thinking, but as the child develops right from a baby to quickly beginning to at very early stages of psychological development, let you know.
What is going on with him? Yeah, he’s being more communicative. Not just he’s being he’s being more Descriptive and and and that begins to really induce you doesn’t it into like the human game? I want you to make me feel good,
Victoria Pendergrass: right? That’s the whole goal when you feel good
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, and if [00:36:00] I’m really good at it, then you will like actually codependent on me, and I’ll get more of what I want.
Right.
Victoria Pendergrass: It’s a terrible game. Which is why I think that you can have parents be codependent on their kids, but you can also have kids be codependent on their
Chris Gazdik: parents. That’s where we cut you off. Yeah. The reverse of that is interesting, too. What do you mean by that?
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, and then I just mean where, and, oh, I, having worked in a school, I feel like I have seen this a lot, but you have kids who, like, you can tell when they’re codependent on their parents or a parent specifically.
More than another, because of their constant discussion of like, wanting to make that person happy. Because then it makes their life easier, it makes them happy. And I think maybe, and correct me if I’m wrong, you might, would see that in like, a lot of families where there’s abuse. Because, [00:37:00] because if dad’s happy, then dad’s not going to hit me, which means I’ll be happy, you know, Tremendous.
Or if mom’s happy, she, you know, she won’t withhold my food. It doesn’t matter. You know, then I’ll be happy because then I’ll get to eat food. You
Chris Gazdik: know, As a matter of fact, I’m going to back you up with that and say that I, I, I curious what you think too about this, John. I think it’s loudest. In a substance abuse family dynamic, the addict or alcoholic and the spouse second in line would be an abusive family.
And that’s kind of a new thought too. What you, I
John-Nelson Pope: was just thinking, well, no, I was going and taking it to its extremist Munchhausen’s by a proxy. Is is that Oh,
Chris Gazdik: boy. True. Yeah. Yeah. What is Munchhausen’s And,
John-Nelson Pope: okay, what it is is that mu he Baren v Munchhausen was a, was a fabulous, basically in, in, from the 18th century, and he was a baron.
And he made up these elaborate [00:38:00] stories and and they were just pure fantasy. And he said he was in all these battles and that sort of thing. And he
had flying machines back in the 18th century by proxy means is usually a mother. can be man, but usually a mother who basically makes the kids sick on purpose and of course the kid is going and having this done to him or to her so that they get, they get a lot of it.
The mother gets a lot of attention and sympathy and the kid is saying, I, I kind of depend on this person. And so even if I suspect something, I’m not going to, to, to, to
Chris Gazdik: do this. And if I could, the
Victoria Pendergrass: biggest example of that is Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Yeah. Know that who became famous because she created a plot to kill her mom because she She did?
Yeah. And well, they did kill her mom. She got like a, a boyfriend. She recently had boyfriend. Well, no, she just got released from jail. Yeah. This happened [00:39:00]
Chris Gazdik: nineties.
John-Nelson Pope: No, no, no. It was, it was early. Or it was in the aughts, the two thousands.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. And so she got out early. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s been in the news recently because she just got released from it.
And they did a document. Yeah. They, there’s so many documentaries, but she’s the most famous case of much, of much houses by proxy because of like, and they would, I mean, her mom would move her from city to city as soon as they thought a doctor would start finding out. And so I think you’re right. That is the very extreme case of like.
Yeah. No dependency. Or
John-Nelson Pope: in. Yeah. And you could say, well, there could be like a mother would say no one’s ever going to love you like I love you.
Victoria Pendergrass: And, so you almost feel trapped. You feel trapped. Like you can’t go
Chris Gazdi
John-Nelson Pope: And so you actually play into that and embrace it eventually.
Chris Gazdik: So this whole idea, right, like compassion, where think we’re being helpful, or think we’re, how did you put it, [00:40:00] Johnna, because I love her.
Because I love you. You know, I want, you know, I want to be your rock. I want to make everything well. And it’s like, wait a minute, like, This compassion gets us in such a nasty place. And what’s so cruel is you don’t even know it. So when you fall into these traps, let’s, let’s, let’s spend a little bit of time on why is this so bad?
Like, what is it that codependence leads to? Why do we not want that? And that’ll lead us into talking about the opposites, which is a fascinating thing we agreed at the front end to talk about. Why do we not want codependency? What what says y’all?
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, I mean, I think a lot of times codependency means that you can’t really, like, stand on your own, in a sense, of like Being able to know loss of individual know what you’re feeling why you’re feeling it where it comes [00:41:00] from You’re always basing it off like someone else instead of so I think it kind of prevents a lack of insight Maybe into like into your own well being and your own emotional Your own emotional well being and like your own emotional intelligence of like knowing like, okay, you know,
John-Nelson Pope: well, I think that’s why they call it of, you know leaving the nest is, you want the person to be as equipped and fully prepared for life as possible.
You can’t do it all for them. But at the same time, you can give them principles of and strengthen it so that they could have a resilience and independence. Well,
Chris Gazdik: it’s funny, John. I mean, it occurs to me you’re describing compassion, right? We said genuine concern for others well being accompanied by a desire to alleviate suffering and promote growth.
It is a good, pretty good definition. You know, when we’re talking about, you know, a compassion component, but in the opposite of that, [00:42:00] man, get down and dirty with codependency. I mean, I think you’re touching on the idea, Victoria, that like, it is a miserable existence. I mean, you, you do more than just lose the ability to even know what you’re feeling.
I mean, it, think of the powerlessness, the utter despair, the, the, the lack of, of, of confidence and groundedness. It’s like you’re literally kind of emotionally depending on the emotional disposition of another person.
John-Nelson Pope: I remember working with a couple. He was a mission. He was a medical missionary. He said he was a doctor.
He wasn’t. He had been in the Navy and he was an X ray technician and he went to the Philippines with his wife. And his three kids, and they lived in a, in a village, primitive stone aged village, and she would do anything for him. I [00:43:00] mean, he, he would walk in front of her and she would walk behind him.
She was covered with sores and, and all of this. And it was because he had this mission that he had to do anything else that they developed cholera had to be hospitalized at the Naval hospital. In Cebu Bay in the Philippines, that is to me an ultimate act of, of, of, and his part delusion, but in her part, codependency, she didn’t have a boundary where she was her separate person
Chris Gazdik: to basically literally killed herself,
John-Nelson Pope: literally killed herself.
Doing that. You, they shipped them out. They came
Chris Gazdik: back a year later. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s, thank you for that, John. Right. Like, because it, it gives a good, a powerful imagery. And, and I think, you know what I would say to you, the listener, right? Like, you know, people in your life that you, you almost in [00:44:00] louder versions of this, it’s, it’s really almost cringe worthy.
Because if you’re, person that you’re observing, you feel like, wow, that’s really kind of them to be that way with their spouse. Wow, I really admire that. You’re not talking about codependence, because we would look on the woman that John just described, and you know people around that are just like, wow, that’s a lot.
Wow, I’m worried about them. That, wow, they’re, they’re really, that’s not going to work out for them, you know? We’re like, what
Victoria Pendergrass: the? bleep is going on.
Chris Gazdik: Right, right, right. Because I mean, it’s like, you know, look from an outside looking in, you can see it and observe the desperation that you were trying to do something impossible.
You’re trying to make somebody something that you want them to be so that you will be that like, and you, if you observe that system, it’s, it’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s cringeworthy. It’s
Victoria Pendergrass: like [00:45:00] cults.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, go there. I don’t even know if we wanted to
Victoria Pendergrass: get into that, but I could almost assume that Most people who are in cults or a cult leader are, are both
Chris Gazdik: codependent.
Okay. Can I just stop this though? Yeah. Either heavily are already or like a, a parent to somebody who develops a substance abuse problem, a kid. Right. Strongly gets inducted in. Right. Unless you stop it. Right. So I don’t want to set up that. Oh, if you’re in a cult, you always were right. You can get inducted into,
John-Nelson Pope: you could become a part of a cult faster than you would even know.
I mean, it was great. It’s it. Great.
Chris Gazdik: Anybody who’s not codependent.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s right. If you don’t get enough food, you don’t get enough sleep, you get a very intense Deprived of things. Deprived of things, you can be Fall into it. Fall into it. So no one’s immune from it. Right. Oh yeah, no. But, but I would think in terms of a cult is [00:46:00] that that person may not be the, the cult leader may not be codependent.
He may be sociopathic, delusional, narcissistic, but that person gets the person following them and that narcissistic person, that psychopathic or sociopathic person will, will manipulate them to, to become
Chris Gazdik: codependent, right? So there is a whole lot of overwhelm with this. There’s a whole lot of powerlessness with this.
And then actually a lot of resentment kicks into when you begin to notice, I am, why am I so angry and resentful in this relationship? Well, you need to maybe sometimes stop and look at why you feel overwhelmed and why you, you have the excessive people pleasing and, and, and feeling out of control. You know, your resentment might be telling you, Hey, you got elements of codependency.
And, and, and that’s why you feel so desperate. Right. You’re trying to make somebody something so that you will be [00:47:00] okay. Mm hmm. And it’s an impossible task, I’m telling you. I mean, those of you that understand substance abuse family dynamics, I mean, the spouse runs around an attic. It’s, it’s, it’s utterly maddening.
Mm hmm. They’re dumping liquor down the drain. They’re making preemptive phone calls to people to make sure that there’s alcohol at the party. Like, they’re Telling the kids straight up lies a whole
John-Nelson Pope: community could be like that if the person is prominent enough I mean, I get get pulled over by Anyone else gets pulled over they go to jail.
This prominent person is politician. I know this is a it was in South, Texas They would just they would just drive them home And yeah, codependent
Chris Gazdik: code on a mass level. That’s interesting. Yeah. It’s, it’s a destructive reality. It, it, it, it really is. So let’s get to, before we go too [00:48:00] far, I think we’ve got a good characterization of this and we’re layering out a little bit of the stereotypes or the myths rather about how not to allow what appears to you, like you being compassionate into the trap of being codependent.
So what’s the opposite here? It’s the opposite. What is the opposite of codependence? It’s a bit of a weird question.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, it’s definitely not dependence.
Chris Gazdik: Right? And it’s
John-Nelson Pope: not, and I would say that it’s not exactly independence. I think it’s interdependence.
Chris Gazdik: Hmm. I feel
Victoria Pendergrass: like this is where Chris would say, tell us more about that, John.
Chris Gazdik: She just did.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. Well, what I’m thinking is that. With interdependence, if you’re truly independent, you’re not necessarily in communication with the other person that’s significant. In other words, you’ve had the declaration of independence and you form your own country and all of that. Right. [00:49:00] But interdependence is, you’re still within the same family, but you have clear defined boundaries, you rely on each other, you’re able to say, there are times when I have to depend on you, you know, let’s say if I get sick or something like that, then there’s that dependence that takes place.
But it also recognizes the idea is to go back into the equilibrium, which would be, I go back in able to operate. And so there’s that give and take that that goes, goes back and forth. So that’s entered. Dependence.
Chris Gazdik: I’m, I’m, I’m smiling from ear to ear. I’m aware because I am in lockstep with you yet again, John.
I have this scale that I created in my mind that talks exactly what you’re talking about. And I, and I, and I almost feel like it’s, it’s a scale of like. You know a level of health. I think i’ve said this on the show before but If if you look at when [00:50:00] you meet greet mate date, whatever you’re in relationship with somebody you have this first quarter of the scale You can’t see me on the audio podcast So you got to tune into youtube podcast subscribe to the youtube lives and click the yellow yellow bell So you can see my hand move right now.
Sorry little plug for the youtube victoria’s eyes are rolling. Okay Lemme get back to it. So really, you’ve got an interrelatedness. You’re, you’re, you’re, you’re related rather. Mm-Hmm. , right? You, you have a relationship and you relate, and then you move to John exactly what you were talking about, interrelatedness, right?
Right. But then you cross over this bad line and you go into the codependent realm falling down him. Down, and then you get into the course, the dependent. So this exact awesome spot in the middle, I guess is the trick question, kind of John Uhhuh. That’s where my brain goes to. Interrelated. Interdependent.
John-Nelson Pope: Exactly. And you know what? It, and it happens, it, it, it, we see, it, it when it’s healthy. Like [00:51:00] for, for example, when you, when you see your, your kids grow up, they go, they become more independent,
but then they’re still. Later on, as you grow older, you kind of depend on your kids a little bit more. There’s that interdependence.
You listen to each other. You, I’ve learned
Chris Gazdik: from my, my son tremendously as he’s been out in the world. Yes.
John-Nelson Pope: So, so there’s, there’s that sense of, of, so what is when one is truly interdependent, one is. Actually, at the highest functioning level of, of autonomous of autonomously you’re autonomous. So you’re actually functioning better.
It’s like, you don’t want to make the gasoline too rich because it’s going to, you know, the engine burned too hot,
Chris Gazdik: burned too hot. Yeah. It’s interesting because, you know, I think there’s a little bit of a. Fear on people’s part of [00:52:00] being codependent. And therefore you fall into a trap of being maybe, unfortunately, more of the opposite, which we don’t want, which is, you know, a fearful attachment styles.
I want to be independent. I don’t want to be too close. You know, I don’t want to fall into that trap. So I’ll remain distant, safely far. There are a way that I need to be because what you’re describing, John, is the very natural state. I mean, you know, if my wife is having a bad day and I’m simply disconnected and don’t care and have my complete own mood unaffected by that, that’s kind of weird.
I would hope she, you know, feels a little sadness when I’m stressed the heck out, you know. So there’s an interrelatedness that you’re describing. I have a
John-Nelson Pope: very brave client who has parents that have split, and they’re split religion as well. But there’s But there’s a sense that they are wanting to get to they, they want to hold on to her too tight, but they will make her miserable.
And so squash [00:53:00] the spirit, squash the spirit. And she’s saying, I w I’ve got to, to navigate that. And she is intentional about her interdependence. So, and she’s very intentional about how she’s raising her boys. That they won’t have that, that not, not to be raised thinking there’s something wrong with me because my mom thinks I’m too fat or my dad does this critical, critical, overcritical.
So it, it, she’s a very
Chris Gazdik: brave client. I think what’s an interesting thing. I mean, I’m listening to you talk about your client there. Who’s, who’s courageous to address these things. I don’t know if we have time to address this, but fresh off my brain is like, there’s another angle there that you’re touching on, John, that’s like, What about receiving codependence?
So like, you know, when, when, when your spouse becomes codependent on you, and it’s kind of like, [00:54:00] oh, that’s kind of a yuck feeling. But you’re not codependent on them. Right. Right. So in being in a position where you’re, you’re sort of interrelated or whatever, but they start to be codependent, that’s a weird feeling to get.
That’s a weird, that’s got to be a weird thing to understand. Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: and I think you see that a lot of times with people that maybe there’s a lot of sickness. It’s a not, it’s an unequal. Right. Yeah. And so how do you encourage the, let’s say the compassion in your relationship, the mutual compassion and say, okay, this person can’t do as much physically or contribute financially.
That doesn’t mean that person doesn’t contribute a lot in terms of raising children and that sort of thing. Or keeping the home or keeping the home and all of that. So, and, and not being a, a douche about it and, and just, and bring it up and say, look what I do, you know, and,
Chris Gazdik: victoria loved the word douche coming out of John.
Yeah, it’s just hilarious.
John-Nelson Pope: I was going to use another word [00:55:00] to start with. He
Chris Gazdik: did good. Keep it family, keep it family. So. Okay, where do we need to get to before we run out of time? The, the article that I found that you’ll find in the show notes really is, I think, kind of cool. It introduced some new concepts when I was playing around with this issue in my head.
What’s the opposite of codependency? Have you, have you ever heard of counterdependent? We’re developing new terms, John, in real life. I have not heard of that. Counterdependent. They are driven by fear of relying on others. So basically you counter codependently to be too distant. It’s
John-Nelson Pope: like that Tom, Tom Petty song refugee.
You don’t have to live like a refugee. You, yeah, so in other words, or you’re a desperado, you’re out there mending fences because you stay away from the relationships. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: absolutely. He’s just a refugee. You know, you don’t want to come into the land. I want to come into the house. Stay out on the prairie.
It’s like, you know, yeah, it’s like I’m counterdependent. I’m so fearful of being codependent that [00:56:00] I’m not even going to talk to you, Victoria, he’s going to stay my distance. I don’t want to do it, you know? It’s like, and these are very fearful attachment styles. And that’s, that’s a, that’s a real thing that we, we come across.
I mean, it creates
John-Nelson Pope: great.
Chris Gazdik: I’ve never heard of that. Yeah. Yeah, counter dependency great intimacy issues, great levels of distrust and, and fears that kind of go into that. So, relax guys, we can be related with each other, we can be engaged, you know, with, with each other and, and, and not like lose ourselves.
So how do we do with this? I mean, what is the contingency? I guess kind of getting back in a little bit more. Victoria to your question like as a new mom, how can you avoid this as a as a spouse? Oh, here’s an interesting question John, you’re more of the substance abuse professional. So I’ll pose it to you like is it so this is interesting How’s John gonna respond to this?
[00:57:00] Oh, no What fresh hell is this? Is it possible for a spouse of a full blown alcoholic to be non codependent Oh,
John-Nelson Pope: you know that I, right. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think that’s why it’s so important for the spouse to get as much counseling as the person. The difference is the codependent is part of the alcoholic or the addicted.
Dynamic. And so that person needs to also recover.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I mean, we have Alan on for that reason. Exactly. And they do the steps. I’ll tell you this though, cause I, I would fall into the same. Notion sort of a no, it’s not possible. I have had I’m actually thinking of somebody right now that Well, I quoted her in my book.
Actually, I really did [00:58:00] I Quoted her as in wrapping up my book of marriage by using her quote and in a little history to that is is that she she is the spouse of, of an, of an addict and over the years, I mean, they’ve been together for like a long time guys married and he was in and out of it and I’m talking about pretty rough stuff.
I mean, it was, you know, cocaine and street level stuff. I mean, it was, you know, it was rough in a lot of ways and, and what she was able to say is, and that’s the quote in the book is I said, I do and I effing meant it. It’s one of the ways I ended my book. So as to like highlight the commitment that you make and I don’t I don’t know her I didn’t meet her in that regard It was but I just have a strong sense.
She wasn’t that codependent John Yeah by talking to the attic person. Yeah over the years how she coped How that worked [00:59:00] and what that was about like
Victoria Pendergrass: I think it’s this gotta be tough But well, I think it’s the same way as as you’re as you’re asking me how I you know Approach it with my almost two year old.
I think if you can in the same regards of like if you can Acknowledge it become aware of it. Like then I think you can be well. Yeah, you can be more like proactive about, and maybe I’m totally off base here. No, no,
John-Nelson Pope: I agree with you. I think, I think in other words, the person doesn’t seek help or let’s say the person just keeps slipping and having relapses and all of that.
That doesn’t mean that the spouse or the, or the partner can’t get better. Right. I mean, but there’s a point where that person doesn’t go into this, like there’s a point when this person says, Oh my God, this, look at this mess that we’re in. Right. So what,
Victoria Pendergrass: sorry, I didn’t
John-Nelson Pope: mean, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to, to No, I interrupted you.
No, I’m, I’m done. I made my point.
Victoria Pendergrass: So I [01:00:00] think you, y’all are funny. So I think you combat that by doing things like therapy,
Chris Gazdik: right?
Victoria Pendergrass: Al-Anon therapy. So like if you Al-Anon therapy, you know, if you are a parent in my position or you know, who think parents don’t need to be alone. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. like, I mean, heck, I see several people who are.
Spouses of alcohol, like, alcoholics. Oh yeah. Or any, or people
Chris Gazdik: who have addiction. You know what you’re looking for, you’ll find it
Victoria Pendergrass: a lot. Yeah, and so I think you can, I think it is possible, because I think if you can be proactive about it, then you can address it if it’s already happening, or you can be proactive in
Chris Gazdik: prevention.
An interesting word of caution, though, is it is so hard. Yeah, I’m not saying it’s easy. To highlight the reality of Alcoholic dysfunctional relationships, drug addict dysfunctional relationships, number one, and also number two, when you’re in the abusive relationship or you have domestic violence [01:01:00] relationship.
Equally so, question is, can a spouse with somebody who has been abusive be non codependent? And the answer is It’s the same. Yes. But man, my metaphor for for addiction, if you remember the black hole, it sucks all emotional and physical resources from that addict’s life and those around them. So we’re literally in a way with that metaphor talking about maintaining your own gravity, being so close to a black hole.
It’s
John-Nelson Pope: tough. It’s spaghettification. As they say, when you go into a black hole, everything just gets drawn into it. You get
Chris Gazdik: sucked into it. It’s, it, it’s got such trying to make the point that is such a strong force with addiction and abuse.
John-Nelson Pope: Here’s, here’s my, my only thought about this before is a lot of times people get into these relationships and they see that, let’s say the young man or the young woman is, is, is drinking so much into [01:02:00] excess and having blac
That person, when they get into that relationship, they, they, they see that. They deny it, but it’s there. And so,
Chris Gazdik: And from the codependence person, probably before they met that person. Yeah. Just so you know too, by the way. Yeah, so. Did that make sense? I don’t think I made that point clear. What I, what I, what I was just referring to is, you likely have a level of codependence before you get into an abusive relationship.
Also, you likely have a level of codependence before you get into a marriage with somebody that has addiction. That’s what I was trying
John-Nelson Pope: to say. That’s one of those, you have to write it a little like R. D. Lange did with knots. You know, he was a psychiatrist and he wrote these little verbal knots. I’m not familiar.
Well, knots is basically little aphorisms and wisdom sayings that talk about how people get into They get, they get [01:03:00] tied up in knots, basically messed up. And so the idea is, is that once you see it, you’re able to untie that knot.
Chris Gazdik: And man, that’s a great way to wrap up. I think today the, the, the, the beauty listening out there of being able to really get those knots untied, identify as a young parent.
Or in your closest relationship in your, with your spouse and with your family, or as Victoria said earlier, even with a coworker, a lesser relationship such as that, like you really can get into a relaxed, peaceful state with this. You really don’t have to stay with the disempowerment. You don’t really have to stay with the impossible task of trying to make somebody something that you want to be well or otherwise, like get out of yourself.
Allow other people to know that’s going on, and you really can heal from it. What a wonderful experience it has [01:04:00] been in therapy to watch people, you know, get, get free from this particular issue of codependency. Oh, for sure. So we’re gonna drop it there, I think. Guys, thanks for hanging out with us.
Thank you. Of course. Great topic today. We’ll see you next week. Stay well. Bye, y’all.