In this episode, we take a deep dive into March’s key discussions. In Episode 302: Misleading Diagnosis—Alcohol Use Disorder, we unpack the dangers of mislabeling drinking habits and explore the impact of inaccurate diagnoses. In Episode 303: The Dangers of Numbing Out—Survivor Mode, we examine how avoiding emotions can hinder growth and discuss strategies for healthy emotional processing. Finally, in Episode 304: Gracious Acceptance, we tackle the challenge of accepting difficult realities—whether it’s a loved one’s addiction or circumstances beyond our control—without feeling like we’re giving up. We look back at these powerful topics and explore what it means to navigate them with clarity and intention.
Tune in to see the March Month in Review Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Links referenced during the show:
5 Subtle Signs You Might Have Alcohol Use Disorder | SELF
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
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Episode #305 Transcription
function, company functions,
Neil Robinson: bar m bar mitzvah.
Chris Gazdik: Bar Mitzvahs. Maybe I started to say that, but I [00:02:00] don’t know if he knows any Bar Mitzvah songs. Are there specific songs for Bar Mitzvahs?
Neil Robinson: You can probably change some stuff. All right,
Adam Cloninger: well he’ll come to your birthday and see. You said cookout, right? Do what? You said cookout. You said barbecue, didn’t you?
Chris Gazdik: Cookout? Yes. Fundraisers. Fundraisers. You’ll come to your fundraiser also. Very good. Maybe we have a good list. Family. Family. Fun day. Family reunions.
Neil Robinson: Yep.
Chris Gazdik: Will come sing for you. Funerals. Okay. Ooh, ooh. Celebrations of life. I mean, we do that. All right, where are we going? We we do a fun thing on the month in review.
Adam brings us a rabbit hole. So we go down the rabbit hole with Adam Cloninger what’s the rabbit hole?
Adam Cloninger: Tried to find something a little better than last month. Last week. What was last week? A month. Last month. You hated the new fear of flying that I unlocked about the people who had to go was it eight hours on a plane with the, with the dead person?
It was disturbing. Yeah, it’s disturbing. So I got two articles this time. [00:03:00] Both of ’em are about hope. So I think I, I think that’ll make matter. Oh, now you are in the opposite direction. Create hope. Yeah, I’m trying to fix. So the first one was a family well, actually a couple. They had a Dotson with them on a, a camping trip to is in South Australian Island, kangaroo Island. Not familiar with it, but
Chris Gazdik: Kangaroo Island. Yep.
Adam Cloninger: So they had their, their Dotson with them and the Dotson was in the kennel and the Dotson escaped.
Chris Gazdik: Oh.
Adam Cloninger: So they spent seven days trying to find a Dotson. So 16 months later, now they’re, the local news has been reporting about a black Dotson spotted on the island.
And now they’ve seen some video footage and they’re convinced it is their dog. Are there like literary kangaroos on this island? I don’t know. They, I mean, I, apparently people live on this island. ’cause it said locals have, have tried to approach the Dotson and it has nothing and it takes off. They won’t have anything to do it.
Yeah. They cannot capture it. But now the owners are convinced that their Dotson, that [00:04:00] they’ve lost 16 months, six months ago is on the island and are still alive. I mean,
Chris Gazdik: it’s possible.
Adam Cloninger: Yeah. So. Good hope.
Chris Gazdik: That is cool. Hope that’s the first
Adam Cloninger: one.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. ’cause I was gonna say, what am I supposed to comment on?
Mental health? I, we supposed to mental health this because
Neil Robinson: the, the anguish of losing a loved one with the, with the renewed root hope of actually having it back.
Chris Gazdik: Can we call a pet a loved one? I mean, yes. It’s, we can. Yes. Why? Wouldn’t, well, because a loved one, A one is a person that’s a human. I’ve never heard of a dog.
Why? Why would a one not be a pet?
Adam Cloninger: You don’t think? Consider a pet part of your family. I mean, yeah. What’s wrong with you, man? I
Chris Gazdik: do. Man. Don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t send hate mail to me. Hate mail me. I just thought that refers to people a loved, just get rid of your dogs and see what happens. Come on, Chris.
Chris, me. My dogs love me. Exactly. Are they not your loved ones? Yeah. I, I, I don’t, I don’t like this conversation. Do you ever take them?
Adam Cloninger: Do you ever take them to the vet?
Chris Gazdik: I mean, I, you know, yeah, I, I don’t know often. So when
Adam Cloninger: I go to the vet, I mean, his name is Marvin and my last name. Last name, right? Yes.
Chris Gazdik: Well, [00:05:00] that’s true. Yes. It’s Fletcher Gary Gick. Yeah. Sadie
Adam Cloninger: say they are your family.
Chris Gazdik: Fle. Yeah.
Neil Robinson: I mean, and wouldn’t you rather spend time with your dogs than your kids sometimes?
Adam Cloninger: Oh, a hundred percent.
Neil Robinson: Yeah. See, exactly. They pets are definitely a loved one. And they have your same last
Adam Cloninger: name, so they’re your, yeah, they’re your adopted kids.
Okay, let’s move on. Okay, so the next one, a a guy in Michigan recently, he spent a hundred dollars on a pick three. He picked the number. 6, 6, 6. Oh, geez. Wait. It, it gets better. It gets better. He won $500.
Chris Gazdik: Of course he won.
Adam Cloninger: How do you feel about that, Chris?
Chris Gazdik: It is a very significant number that supports or represents the evil one,
Adam Cloninger: but it gets better.
Okay. So he took a hundred of the 500 he one and put it on a fast cash. Guess what happened? He won 2.3 million three, $2.39 million.
Chris Gazdik: Are you [00:06:00] serious? Yep. That is crazy. Yep.
Adam Cloninger: So anyway,
Chris Gazdik: hope off of the number. 6, 6, 6.
Adam Cloninger: No, the, he used the number 6 6 6 on a pick three,
Chris Gazdik: right?
Adam Cloninger: And he won, got money, he won $500, but that’s money.
He’s tainted. Well then he took 400 to put in his pocket, spent another a hundred dollars on a, and won a million on a fast cash multi and won $2.39 million.
Chris Gazdik: Okay, well that, I guess that could definitely generate hope. I don’t know. I’m going towards the devil talking the devil number stuff. That’s, that’s the part that bothers you.
Yeah.
Adam Cloninger: So if I would’ve left the 6, 6, 6 part eight. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Why would you play the lottery on 6, 6, 6? Like, no, I don’t,
Adam Cloninger: I mean, they didn’t say what the other one, he might’ve picked 4, 4, 4 and five. Five, five and six. I don’t know. You run
Neil Robinson: through, through three just to counteract it.
Chris Gazdik: I mean, that’s what I’m gonna play.
I’ll play 3, 3, 3, 6. He might played 6,
Adam Cloninger: 6, 6 and seven. Seven, seven. And, well,
Chris Gazdik: here’s a true story, Neil he, the, the, the, okay. So I have this golf course that I would walk across to go to a swimming pool. Growing up, we like lived in a, in a resort, like in a, in a it was [00:07:00] called Ogleby Park at the time.
Now they call it a resort, but it was just a golf course. You know, it had a zoo. It was a great little place to grow up. But I was at the pool and I’m coming across the golf course, which is, you know, a long walk for a kid. So, you know, it’s probably a half hour walk. I. And I find not one golf ball with a number three on it, but I find a second golf ball with a number three and then a third golf ball with a number three.
And I went home and I asked my mom, I, this is just crazy. Like why do I have this experience? And obviously the number is 3, 3, 3. And we looked it up and it, it does stand for perfect holiness. That’s a weird, I felt weird about that. I’ve thought, I don’t know what it means. Probably doesn’t mean anything, but I don’t know man, what it means,
Neil Robinson: it means you had a really pissed off golfer that lost three of his nice golf boss.
It means there’s a mad
Adam Cloninger: golfer
Neil Robinson: somewhere.
Chris Gazdik: Pretty sure there were three different golfers. That would be scary if it was the same golfer that put those balls in that spots that I
Neil Robinson: thought, well, I mean, some [00:08:00] golfers are pretty consistently bad, so you might, they might, this is
Chris Gazdik: true. And I wasn’t looking for balls, honestly.
So it is kind of into fairway. Numbers or such? Were they close to each
Adam Cloninger: other or not?
Chris Gazdik: No, they were not. This was just walking an half hour to an hour. Well, well, it couldn’t have been an hour. I don’t know. I was a small kid, but it was a long walk for me. And it was over a golf course, like, I don’t know, one, two.
Different holes. So two different fairways and pine trees and whatever. But I wasn’t looking for balls. I was going home and I found three of ’em.
Adam Cloninger: So forgive my ignorance. What’s the numbers on a golf ball for,
Chris Gazdik: They, they, when you’re golfing, you, you know, you, it’s a way to identify your ball that the, that’s how it is, right?
Neil Robinson: You, you would do whatever you put onto. So it’s your, your identifier. Yeah. So that way if you’re golfing with buddies, you know which ones are yours versus someone else’s.
Chris Gazdik: I have a title list four. You have a title is seven, you know, well, you, well what if you both
Neil Robinson: have title list threes, then you would draw something on there.
Yeah, there’s all sorts of things. My father-in-law would draw like a, [00:09:00] a coni symbol. He’s from, he, he spent a bunch of time in Japan. He writes something specifically on there. Yeah, I think that’s funny guys that will write on their balls.
Adam Cloninger: Yeah, they do. So it could have been something as simple as he just dropped his balls and
Chris Gazdik: no, no.
It was, it was three different spots for sure. I mean, it was, it was weird that I found three balls at all. It’s weird that I found any golf balls. Maybe you were supposed
Adam Cloninger: to play to pick three and pick three. Three, three. It’s better
Chris Gazdik: than six. Six, six, that’s what I’m saying.
Adam Cloninger: I don’t know. 2.3 million. Then actually.
2.39 million plus another $400 says you’re wrong.
Chris Gazdik: Neil, what were you gonna say? Numbers are weird.
Neil Robinson: No, numbers are just an interesting thing when you look at the, the things behind them. Numerology.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Neil Robinson: That’s an interesting study when you look a lot of those things so that, that could be a topic. Bring a numerology.
Well, maybe that’s the
Chris Gazdik: topic of this rabbit hole that we’ve definitely gone down because I mean, I was born on 2/25/25 and I turned 52. Yeah,
Neil Robinson: interesting.
Chris Gazdik: Do the math. 2 25. 25. That was my birthday and I turned 52 years old. Those numbers add up to 52. Like I think this is gonna be a good year, but if I play the [00:10:00] lottery, I’m not playing.
6, 6, 6. Neil, I’m playing three. Three. Three.
Adam Cloninger: So do you like Jim Carrey’s movie,
Chris Gazdik: which is,
Adam Cloninger: is it 23? What is it? I don’t know what that is. The number 23, I think it’s called. Have you not seen that? I, I don’t think I’ve seen that one. Oh, you gotta watch that. Got nothing. Oh, yeah. I don’t really like Jim Carrey though.
It’s not a comedy. Oh, really? Yeah. It’s not a comedy.
Chris Gazdik: Jim Carrey and a non comedy. He’s not
Adam Cloninger: a comedy.
Chris Gazdik: He’s not a couple.
Adam Cloninger: Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: they’re different. He’s actually a good actor. That sounds like Adam Sandler. Is he a good actor? That’s debatable. All right. Let’s get into the March month in review from the episode 3 0 2.
I don’t know. I’m gonna let you, Neil, take this so I don’t go off on a rant with the alcohol use disorder, misleading diagnosis, alcohol use disorder. The three questions we posed was, have I ever assumed someone’s drinking habits were problematic without understanding their full context? How can misdiagnosis.
Of alcohol use disorder, impact treatment and a person’s self [00:11:00] perception. And then lastly, what are the key differences between casual alcohol use, problematic drinking and alcohol use disorder? Those were, those were the questions. What do you recall, Neil? ’cause I don’t wanna just rant,
Neil Robinson: well, you don’t wanna rant about them watering down the, the term alcohol abuse disorder versus, or alcohol abuse disorder versus like alcohol addiction or something like that.
I mean, I’m
Chris Gazdik: going to, yeah. But I just wanted to temper it for at least a moment. Well,
Neil Robinson: this, well see that was an interesting conversation. ’cause when you’re going through the, when I was listening to you and John talk about it, like, it just sounded like alcohol addiction. But then as you start diving into things, it’s like they’re trying to not make it the same.
Which was kind of weird.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Neil Robinson: It, it was a very weird thing. And I know we’ve had discussions about a addiction versus abuse. Right, right. Alcohol, which is really, I’m still confused by, but that’s okay. So yeah. So it’s kind of one of those interesting, interesting things when you look at. You know, how, how did they tell you as a therapist to handle someone using alcohol use [00:12:00] disorder versus just an alcohol addiction?
Like is there really a difference between the two?
Chris Gazdik: It’s just frustrating because the, the titling and, and, and verbal biology that’s used was changed in our more recent versions of the diagnostic statistical manual. So we used to have alcohol abuse as a complete own ICD nine coated diagnosis, and then alcohol dependence as its own separate ICD nine coated diagnosis.
And the thing of it is they combined them and just said, we’re gonna just say this is alcohol use disorder. So they’re not distinguishing between people that have alcoholism addiction, you know, we said chemical dependency and, and, and they just lumped in people that are, you know, abusing the substance so that, you know.
They might get a DUI and continue drinking and whatnot, but it’s not addiction, so they just lumped it all in [00:13:00] together and, and, and it really, really disre misrepresents what addiction is. I mean, yeah, we’ve had the conversation. I like to say you put professionals in a room together, you simply posed a question, what is addiction?
And just look at the fireworks fly. Because there’s so much discussion and so much curiosity about it and so much non not good information. So, so it is almost like we’ve done research and studied the brain and, and they, they’re, they’re sort of trying to claim different different claims about the substance abuse addiction field that I, I just don’t support ’cause I’m a traditionalist, you know, in insofar as we know, abstinence-based treatment for addiction is all that’s possible because addicted folks cannot control their use.
And that is just very different than, you know, self-medicating is a big phrase. Or coping with your emotions through drinking or being impulsive with a driving situation. I mean, those things may be a part of addiction, but this diagnosis, alcohol use [00:14:00] disorder makes it sound like it’s all one big thing and it’s just dramatically different.
It’s totally different. And, and clinicians, I think, that don’t study the history of the chemical dependency field, like substance abuse therapists, then they, they’re just, it’s just so misleading. So that’s my problem with it in a, in a nutshell
Neil Robinson: that that clarifies some things based on the conversation from before.
And here, I mean that, so, yeah. ’cause if, if you’re looking at it from, say, physical therapy or something like that, someone who has like a, my foot hurts, right? Well, why did your foot hurt? Well, is it because you broke your leg? Or you, did you break your foot? Did you sprain something? Mm-hmm. It is the same basic idea, right?
You treat a broken foot different than like an ankle sprain, right? Yeah. ’cause you would put a cast on a broken foot, but an ankle sprain, you might just get a brace. Right? Or just some other stuff. Right? So the idea of treating two different things, they look very similar. But when you think about the [00:15:00] foundation behind it, right?
The, the addiction side of it, the a alcoholism versus just not being able to cope or deal with it, it really changes the whole, whole dynamic. And when you, when you try to lump it together, it changes the whole dynamic, right? Because you’re not properly looking at, oh, this needs to be treated this way.
Like you said, with the chemical dependency. So, like I said, the same kind of idea, my foot hurts. You have an idea. That is
Chris Gazdik: a really, really good metaphor, honestly.
Neil Robinson: You have broken, you have a, you have a hurt foot disorder. Mm. Okay, let’s just, he’s taking
Adam Cloninger: you to the seminar with them to help. Seriously, I’m so
Chris Gazdik: gonna use that as a metaphor when I talk about this, because if you sprain your ankle, your foot hurts.
But if you break your ankle, yeah, your foot also hurts. We can’t say this is a foot hurt disorder. That’s just stupid. It’s just stupid. Yeah. I love that. I, I love that a lot. And, and, but we’ve done that. I don’t know how brilliant people came up with that, but that’s, that’s what we did with this thing.
Neil Robinson: Well, and I mean, it’s kind, well, it’s kind of like some of the like.
A DD spec, like the spectrum of a DD versus [00:16:00] a DHD, the autism and Asperger’s. Like they’re taking all these things and trying to lump them into these big spectrums. Yeah. Right. Instead of saying, here’s one piece that’s, you know, like, this piece is different because of these characteristics. They’re trying to put them all together to either lessen the worst cases or to try to make it, I don’t, ’cause then we talked about that too, watering down the terms, right.
Water down. Like, you know, an alcoholic is, well, you know, alcoholic, you have alcohol use disorder, you know, make you feel better about that.
Chris Gazdik: Right? Yeah. There’s a little bit of that going on, but, and you’re right, I mean, Asperger’s and autism, you know, is, is another really good example of that. Although that’s,
Neil Robinson: there’s other reasons behind those two, right?
They, but
Chris Gazdik: they’re very similar. They’re, they’re, they’re actually a whole lot more similar. I, I think there’s a, a stark difference between a sprained ankle and a broken ankle. Asperger’s and autism, I don’t know, it’s almost like a sprained ligament in the ankle as opposed to a sprained [00:17:00] muscle in the ankle.
You know what I mean? I mean, to stay with that metaphor, they’re, they’re pretty close and you can lump them together a whole lot better. ’cause we do, I do believe in continuums and the field did move towards thinking about, you know, depression on a continuum, light, moderate, severe bipolar, you know, light, bipolar, moderate, severe, hypomanic versus manic.
You know, there’s continuums for things and, and all, but, but, but you gotta be careful. You can’t put everything in a continuum, particularly when there are different things.
Neil Robinson: Well, you or you need a very clear guidelines, like if your, if your continuum is over in this section, there’s this course, right? You can’t, you can’t, you still have to look at certain criteria in that continuum, right?
You can’t just say, oh, you’re an alcohol use disorder continuum and you treat everyone the same. Right? Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And that’s a big thing that you raise too. You know, what do you do with alcohol abuse? You really do treat that differently than alcohol dependence in the older way that we used to refer to the diagnoses.
You, you, you really [00:18:00] need abstinent. Base treatment for people that have addiction. We have not been able to do a return to drinking very well at all on any kind of programs that have engaged that. In fact, it’s pretty well just not really done anymore quite so much. We used to have 12 step programs that would advocate for that, not AA and whatnot.
Alcohol abuse. Yeah. You gotta damn deal with your emotions. You gotta, you gotta manage what you’re stressed out about. You gotta, you know, but you definitely don’t have to like never drink again. There’s a very, very different
Neil Robinson: approach. Well, well one of the questions when I, you know, looking at it from outside, you know, if you have problems with the alcohol abuse because you’re not dealing with your emotions like that, shouldn’t you still abstain from alcohol?
Chris Gazdik: I mean, for a period of time it probably would be helpful. It would be. I mean, I’ve done that with people for sure. You know, let’s, let’s just, let’s take the negative coping away. But you do that with eating too. You know, like, let’s, let’s, you know, you’re looking at the difference is you’re looking at just behavior versus with addiction, you are looking at a genetic, biological [00:19:00] reality.
That’s kind of way, I believe and see and so, yeah, I mean there’s lots of ways to manage your behavior and all, but I dunno. Adam,
Adam Cloninger: what do you think? I just wanna say I haven’t had any alcohol since last week. Okay, good. Just say everybody, I know you’re sober for a week. Well, I mean, I, I’ll have a couple beers here, then I’m good for a few days.
I don’t,
Chris Gazdik: we’ll do an alcohol assessment. That’d be a fun real show. Alcohol assessment, alcohol and drug assessment.
Neil Robinson: How’s your LT going, Chris? Huh? How’s your LT going? Lent is going fine.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, just asking. He’s referring to my commitment to not drink alcohol for Lent. I am engaged in that. My body’s probably happier, I could say that.
Yeah. Yeah. Still going strong at your first day? Couple, couple more days after the first day. How much longer do we gotta go? I don’t know. We got two weeks. Three. How’s your, how’s your morning
Neil Robinson: coffee?
Adam Cloninger: Morning. Coffee’s fine. Nothing wrong with the morning coffee. Ask him about Lent on his first day of Lent.[00:20:00]
What, what? After on the first day of what? What day? There’ll be
Chris Gazdik: compulsively looking at what specific day we start. Does it, does it have to, does
Adam Cloninger: it really matter if I start day
Chris Gazdik: late? Alright. I’m done with this conversation also.
Neil Robinson: Well, I, I haven’t had anything in like six and a half years, so I,
Chris Gazdik: right.
Neil Robinson: Once again, no sympathy here.
Oh no. You can’t drink for 40 days.
Chris Gazdik: It had a bonfire, Neil. Yeah. Good for you. Not cool. You still, also, you still should. Baseball started today. This is the first day of baseball. Happy MLB day for everybody by the way. Go,
Neil Robinson: go buy some odus. It’ll be fine. Ah, that’s not even, ugh.
Chris Gazdik: Drink some unsweet tea and, and instead, yeah.
He, he drinks beer for flavor. I do. Oh, ly. I used to. You kidding? Beer tastes good.
Neil Robinson: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yes, man. All the micro, you know what beer I drink for crying out. How do you tell me that stuff’s not flavorful?
Adam Cloninger: No, that’s not what I’m saying at all.
Chris Gazdik: What are you saying?
Adam Cloninger: I’m saying if you went to the store and you had two drinks and you know both of ’em taste [00:21:00] the same and this one has alcohol and this one doesn’t, you make.
Well, I’m taking this one ’cause it’s got alcohol in it. Actually, I would pick the non alcohol one, but Chris would pick the one with alcohol. Unless it’s lent, then he would,
Neil Robinson: then he would still pick it. But that’s a one other thing. Then he
Adam Cloninger: would
Neil Robinson: just,
Chris Gazdik: I, I don’t know. It depends. No, I think I could, I would get both.
It depends on what I wanna do for that particular day. All right. Speaking of alcohol, we didn’t really get to talk about the assessments. They were quick and dirty. That was, the article was pretty cool. And I thought, these are five pretty clean, pretty quick things to think about. Like, are these things that in combination, not any one of them by the way.
Are they an issue? Because that gives you, you know, you want to really start looking at your relationship with alcohol. So alcohol is the only reason you look forward to social interactions. It dominates or predominates, like, that’s why I wanna get together. Two people in your life, comment on your drinking.
Like there’s a, there’s a question or some not, not, you know, giving you a hard time or just. Busting your chops, but, but really like out of [00:22:00] concern. Like, Adam, I’m really concerned. You know why you just lied about your alcohol intake. We need to talk about that after show or man, you
Adam Cloninger: okay? You were tore up last night,
Chris Gazdik: right?
Well, you know. Yeah. Three, you start thinking your friends are boring for not drinking like you. That’s a weird sort of turnaround thought. I thought that was interesting in the article.
Adam Cloninger: Unless they’re boring. Unless they’re boring, if they’re not drinking
Chris Gazdik: so boring, like Neil four, you’re constantly making excuses to normalize your drinking.
You know, excuses is a big indicator. And then five you keep trying to, to quit drinking, but it, it, it just, you, you, you end up drinking again. That’s a pretty strong indicator. So in combination, these five things are, are, are pretty
Neil Robinson: interesting. Sounds like things you would have if you have a drug alcohol addiction, not an alcohol use disorder.
Chris Gazdik: Thank you. Yes, thank you for that. Like, the direction of this we’re, we’re making progress. We also didn’t get to talk about motivational interviewing and, and I thought that was interesting. So, as a way for [00:23:00] therapists that might be listening to the show. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a therapy modality that I use a lot of times when I’m working with addicted individuals and I’m, I’m doing a presentation, and I’m gonna add this into my presentation when I’m talking to therapists, because this is kind of an advanced skill in motivational interviewing.
First of all, motivational interviewing is a theory where you look at like the stages that people are in and their process in, in, in, in getting active into recovery. So you end up in a pre-contemplative stage where you’re just outside of the circle and you’re not really contemplating a change or an interest or an issue.
You’re not really looking at these questions and being honest with yourself. Contemplative stages when you see some of these questions might have some answers that give me concern, but not really sure that I want to go do sobriety. I definitely don’t wanna do sobriety, so I don’t know that I wanna be active in treatment, whatever.
And so you’ll move from contemplative stage to an active stage where yeah, I need to start talking about this and dealing with it. And so you [00:24:00] actively move into treatment, recovery, sobriety, 12 step, whatever it might be. And then last you might move into a relapse where you kind of fall out and then you have to go back into, you know, the cycle of things.
So that’s motivational interviewing, but an advanced skill that’s kind of cool is sustained reflective listening with complex reflections. And I thought it was cool the way they put that. And then I realized like, I do this all the time. Did you say complex? Yep.
Adam Cloninger: Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Sustained reflective listening with complex reflections.
Yeah. I think I missed the word a little bit. And you know, we, we talk about reflective listening all the time, like. You know, you know Neil, so I heard you say, da, da, da, and you clarify what they said in session, repeating it, reflecting it back, and then they respond and you kind of go on with more thoughts about the topic.
That’s like a basic skill that we all do. I mean, therapists do that almost like, just naturally we don’t even think about it. But when you look at sustained reflective listening, you’re really [00:25:00] staying with the theme that the person’s bringing. You reflect that back. But then you have complex reflections where you’re actually kind of interpreting that concept or thought a little further than what that person is actually thinking.
So the danger is you’re, you’re making a suggestion and therapists get really weird about like, I don’t wanna put anything out here that isn’t what they’re bringing. So there’s, there’s concern. So, so you have to be really careful about doing that. But when you get into this complex reflective.
Tendency. I find that that’s where you really figure things out with people. So, you know, therapists listening, that’s an advanced skill and I’m gonna talk about it in my, my day presentation, but are you
Adam Cloninger: sometimes like just kind of spitballing, like maybe it’s this when you’re like, oh, a hundred percent.
Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, spitballing probably isn’t exactly the right term there. I like to say educated guess. As a matter of fact, I’ll, I’ll say like in session with you, Adam, I’ll be like, [00:26:00] listen, I’m gonna make an educated guess. But what I hear maybe might be behind that is you’re kind of thinking about your question, but your question actually might have a doubt.
’cause I remember you’ve said that you had doubts about, you know, this thought before, right? So I wonder, I wonder how much that doubt that you have in trusting other people or their thoughts plays into this that adds a lot of flavor to you asking the question. You’re making the statement ahead.
Neil Robinson: So in listening to you talk, just in general, a couple things I’ve kind of looked at from listening to how you, the therapist talk in this thing.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. When we get into therapy talk,
Neil Robinson: shouldn’t, shouldn’t a therapist make. Suggestions or give their feedback to what the person’s doing. And you just said therapists don’t like to do that. But if I’m coming to a therapist Yeah, and I want, and I’m having them listen to me, I don’t expect it to be first session.
Oh, by the way, here’s your problem. But as you build a relationship, if my therapist [00:27:00] isn’t giving me feedback to help me process it, that’s a crappy therapist. I’m sorry, but, and so, so that’s an interesting, ’cause we’ve talked about that before. Like sometimes you don’t like giving formal treatment plans or certain things like this, and there’s certain things you have to let your client work through.
But if I’m coming to you as a client and I need to figure out things out, like to me as a therapist, if you’re not giving, Hey, based on my professional experience and what you’re saying and looking at your body and saying and giving them some sort of a feedback, I don’t know. I just feel like there’s this weird.
Area in therapy right now, that they’re so worried about hurting their patient’s feelings, that they’re not actually really happy, scared to say
Adam Cloninger: something out the way. Right. Yeah, I can say that.
Chris Gazdik: So I don’t know that it’s a, it’s a, it’s a fear of hurting their feelings, but, or getting sued or something. I maybe some liability for sure.
You don’t wanna do any damage. I think the thing is, you know, there’s a lot of fear about labeling or certainly mislabeling, you know and, and you know, it, it. It’s [00:28:00] about like, I need to process with this with you rather than be directive and tell you something. But I think there’s, interpretation is a different word.
You know, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna tell you what is going on in your head when I’m just looking at symptoms and figuring out with you what those match up with and what might be. But, but I am going to interpret a lot. So it, it, it really comes with experience. But I couldn’t agree Neil. More, I mean, I, I, I think people are afraid to interpret, you know, wildly interpret.
Sometimes you have to because the person literally just doesn’t see things that are really overt and right in front of you. And
Neil Robinson: I think, I think that’s really powerful because when you have those conversations and the therapist kind of comes outta left field being like, I think it might be, or based on what I’m saying, I think it’s this, because then you, from your perspective, you hear it and sometimes you get that weird like smack in the face being like, oh wait, maybe that is what I meant to.
Exactly. And then they start, like you said,
Chris Gazdik: processes
Neil Robinson: it.
Chris Gazdik: [00:29:00] Right. Well, those, those are sometimes, honestly, when I’ve gotten more of the aha moments and stuff that, that you know, do happen, it’s a, it’s an aha moment when I actually hit one. And when you get to seeing patterns with different diagnoses, you hit your clients.
I didn’t, did not hit the client. Aha. Aha. Get it in your brain. Just stop it. I definitely want to, sometimes I,
Adam Cloninger: no, I, I would think that he’s got a kind of. Go based on what the client’s doing and what I’m, what I mean is he’s probably having these suggestions in his head. Now, whether he says ’em or not, it’s probably going based on if the client is just g saying something and he’s probably going to sit back and wait.
But if they’re, if they’re giving some kind of indication, and correct me if I’m wrong, if they give some kind of indication they’re wanting some kind of, you know, feedback, feedback or some kind, if they like kind of stop and like looking at you, you’re probably gonna be more likely to say what you were thinking than if they’re just talking the whole time.
’cause you’re thinking maybe they haven’t got [00:30:00] to the point yet, but I’ll make notes. Mm-hmm. I’ll talk about it in a few minutes.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I think ab I mean the, the, the flow of an individual session, I love this. It’s kind of fun for me. It’s like talk shop in, in a way that, that, that, yeah, I mean it in the flow.
I mean, you gotta realize this is a relationship. It’s a therapy relationship and the relationship, no, we’re not hitting, you know, people. Ha it’s, but it’s, it is not a domestically violent therapy relationship. Neil,
Neil Robinson: would it be professionally violent? Not domestically.
Chris Gazdik: I mean, we could play with that. That might be an interesting strategy that we’d have to do some evidence-based research to see the efficacy of said therapy practice.
You like, oh, I said I guess I could use the psychobabble words. No, but seriously, it’s a relationship. You’re engaging with it, you’re understanding each other, and when you’re interacting, you know, yeah, sometimes people just need to come in and just vent. Adam, you’re, you’re a hundred percent right. And but when they give indicators, like we all do during conversations, it’s kinda like, well, yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna fill, I’m gonna fill that [00:31:00] space.
Neil Robinson: And, and I can see that being super valuable for people who just don’t really understand the power that alcohol has in their life. And when you start, oh, with that addiction, it’s
Chris Gazdik: very important when
Neil Robinson: you start discussing and you start seeing it from different sides. Like that can be super powerful when it comes to some of those things sometimes.
As
Chris Gazdik: a matter of fact, you’re making me think there, there’s, there’s, it’s not my style. I, I’ve worked with people that have the same kind of style and it’s just like, it almost makes me uncomfortable. But there’s a, in traditional substance abuse therapy, it occurs to me that it’s a part of this conversation.
Talk about being directive. Oh my god. People will get in people’s faces and stuff like, you know, you have to break the person down and attack the denial and, you know, go at them and all, and I’m like, dude, I had this one experience, you know, where I was a co-leader with this woman who was much my elder.
And we had like one dude in the group at the time we were, it was a new group, we were starting it. And he was a young young fellow, young black dude. We, she was an older, middle aged white lady. And I was like green, knowing nothing [00:32:00] outta school. Her eyes bugged out of her head. She got out of her chair.
She went over to the guy and started like basically straight talking with him and just like to confront the crap out of him. I was like. Oh my God. I just sat there like, what are you doing, man? Like, you can’t, it’s not, and it worked. Actually, I must give credit. I mean, he appreciated and got something out of it and coupled with a lot more complicated, more gentler, I guess you’d say, interactions.
But it was like, so yeah, a therapist can get pretty directive when need be. Alright. Episode 3 0 3. We talked about the dangers of numbing out survival mode. I don’t understand why I was destroyed for using the word numbing out what happened there. Neil,
Neil Robinson: Adam, have you heard the term numbing out?
Adam Cloninger: I mean, I, I think I kind of mean what he’s referring to.
Are you talking [00:33:00] about like a lot of things happened to you after, while you’re like, okay, yeah, I’m just kind of tuned out from all the stuff. Is that what you’re talking about? Feelings are numbed out. Yeah. I don’t feel them. So did y’all, you give ’em a hard time or something? Or Victoria, it’s not bad, right?
It’s not. Victoria
Neil Robinson: has the, the young millennial, and I say that because somehow I’m ranked and I’m lumped in with millennials and don’t ask my wife that. ’cause she’ll, that’s a, that’s a touchy subject
Adam Cloninger: generation thing. I know that’s real though. But,
Neil Robinson: but that’s the thing is like. Victoria, like she never heard the term.
And so there was this whole process behind this conversation about like, I just don’t get numbing out, like disengaged. Like she come up with like a dozen other terms, which was, they all kind of fit. They were some that didn’t, but it was just interesting that whole thing that it was just like, it’s like a, an old, a whole like okay boomer thing because it’s a phrase that, which I am not in the boomer generation, so No, you’re not.
And John hates too, which I think is hilarious when you do that to John, that’s a trigger for him. Yeah. Y’all [00:34:00] should
Adam Cloninger: have mentioned comfortably No him and say if she,
Chris Gazdik: I did, as a matter of fact, I mean, it’s like a cool song, but it’s not one that Victoria was going to ever hear. I, I just, I was shocked. I Yeah, Neil, I, I didn’t understand that at all.
I, I thought that as a very clear clinical term that I, I evidently is totally outdated. Adam. I, yeah. They don’t know. Comfortably numb.
Adam Cloninger: Well, they always change terms anyway. That the kids annoying. It’s annoying. Annoying. No, I meant like the clinical stuff.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Why they got, we just talked about alcohol use disorder.
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Cloninger: And then you know, manic depressive, they don’t wanna use that term anymore.
Chris Gazdik: That’s another one. I’m impressed. I’m sure.
Adam Cloninger: I’m sure all of ’em are like, they’ve all got changed. I think it’s kinda like software.
Chris Gazdik: Software.
Adam Cloninger: Yeah. I think, lemme hear this. Okay, so you got software works, works just fine.
Then they new the new version and then you start using the new version software and you’re like, okay, it appears to be doing the exact same thing the old one does, but they move all the icons [00:35:00] and called ’em something else. But I don’t see any improvement. It does the exact same thing.
Chris Gazdik: I love this. I think you’re on point.
Why do we have to change the programs? Neil, you’re an IT guy. Why do we have to do this?
Neil Robinson: Because, because there’s someone who.
Adam Cloninger: Change something somewhere else,
Neil Robinson: pretty much. ’cause someone heavily opinionated who, who pays more money, doesn’t like the previous way. So they, they put enough money into it to then update it, and then they think it fixes it.
And then when you’ve changed one thing for that client, that breaks it for another one. So then they have to make more changes.
Adam Cloninger: All right, let’s be real. What really happens is. Okay, we already sold our other product. We have to make another one, another version, move some icons around and call it, call it something else.
Then if
Neil Robinson: we break something that justifies our 4.7 Yes. And if we break it, then that justifies our support contracts we have with the people and they
Adam Cloninger: always break it. ’cause there’s, every time there’s something comes out, there’s nothing ever works.
Neil Robinson: No, because you probably have something custom in your system and then your, your [00:36:00] network’s different than this other person’s network, which causes Yeah.
We we’re having
Adam Cloninger: problems with 11 right now
Chris Gazdik: with episode 11 or windows 11. Windows 11. It doesn’t
Adam Cloninger: work with some of our engineering. Oh, for real? Oh, and you guys are the worst you engineers
Neil Robinson: with the CAD programs and the cncs and like, there’s a legit Yeah. You’ll, you’ll have machines that still run on like Windows XP or Windows 2000, like because it works and they don’t wanna update the code or that company went away, got bought by like engineers.
And those are, are by far the worst when comes updated. Yeah.
Adam Cloninger: So, so I, you know, I’m, I’m an engineer, so my, my newest laptop. They had to put on Windows 10. Even though Windows 11 is a new thing now, they’re like, can’t put you on Windows 11 yet because we have this, this, this, and this and this that. We don’t know how to make it work yet.
Neil Robinson: Yep. They don’t know how the DLL tied. See, this is why I have emotional
Chris Gazdik: issues and I get tormented when things change. I don’t like change. Let’s just leave stuff the same. Think you should numb out. Why fix it when it’s not?
Adam Cloninger: Yeah, just leave it called manic depressive. Why change the name I.
Chris Gazdik: I actually don’t have [00:37:00] that much of a problem with that, although that one, I don’t like that term quite so much.
The three questions to dangers of numbing out survivor mode are, in what ways do I tend to numb my emotions rather than face them? Victoria loves the word numb. Now, I hope. How number two do I differentiate between healthy coping and emotional avoidance? And lastly, what small steps can I take to reconnect with my emotions in a safe way?
You know, this is a really hard thing to do as, as much as you might think. I don’t know what I’m numbing out. I, you know, people, people make the joke like, I, I don’t have emotions. I don’t, I don’t have feelings, whatever. I don’t care. I got a call complete and utter bullshit because a hundred percent of the time, whether you’re awake or sleeping, you will be having emotional experience.
That’s what dreams are. You, you, you’re working out your emotions. So you do have feelings, you do have emotions. You have them actually all the time. There isn’t a time that you [00:38:00] don’t, but Adam, we spend so much time trying to like suppress, repress, compartmentalize. Like forget what it is that we know and people can live a lifetime that way.
Adam Cloninger: Is that when I can’t find my keys? It might be subliminally
Chris Gazdik: why you can’t find your car keys. You have some sort of resentment towards
Adam Cloninger: that vehicle. May maybe I’m ready to get rid of that truck. It
Chris Gazdik: might
Adam Cloninger: be Tom, I may have left this part out, but it’s the second time I’ve lost the keys in two weeks. Oh, you
Chris Gazdik: did leave that part out in two weeks.
In two weeks. Where’d you, where’d
Adam Cloninger: you, where’d you lose it the first time? Dude, I had put it in a bag, a travel bag, and I put it in Why I put it in that spot, I don’t know. And yes, already looked there. Okay. Neil seems very, very
Chris Gazdik: intrigued at like, where could these keys, it’s a challenge. I
Adam Cloninger: wanna like find that if and when I find ’em I’m like, I found them, but
Chris Gazdik: you know, I’m gonna text you, I’ll let you know.
But back to the thing, like honestly, you know, I have people in my sessions like, you know, someone towards the end of the day, even just today is a struggle. [00:39:00] Like to really. Acknowledge that I have this emotional experience going on. ’cause she, she talks so eloquently about, like, look, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve spent, you know, 45 years just not NN not you think, not knowing what I feel, but it’s really just not paying attention, not allowing a focus on that.
And it’s like you, you do that for any length of time, stuff just totally builds up. And when it builds up and it’s internalized, it’s an ugly picture.
Neil Robinson: Here’s an interesting that was kind of outside of this, that when we were talking to John, when you talked about, we talked about processing stuff, right?
And he talks about like when you go through trauma you need to process it ’cause it moves it outta the limbic part and puts it into like the long term piece of your brain, right? Right. So it’s almost like instead of people that are having these issues, instead of actually going, taking the time to properly process it and put it into the long-term storage, they just basically kind of put it into that junk drawer.
Or you see those people who clean their room and then you [00:40:00] have the closet that’s busting at the seams. ’cause they didn’t actually organize like yeah it looks great every like, ’cause we’ll watch animes and they’ll do that. Like those, those characters a notorious like dirty person. Like they whore, they have everything and they walk in the room’s clean.
You’re making me thinking my buddy Adrian, I love you Adrian, but dude, you know, and then behind them the closet doors like pulsing ’cause it’s so full of crap. Right? Right. It’s that same idea, numbing now it’s the same way. You have this surface level of a clean room. But you have this, this chaos that’s about to burst because you don’t, you didn’t actually take the time to properly process and organize and put those things away in your long-term memory, right?
So it’s that way that you can think you’re living your life normal by ignoring the whole situation that’s out there. And that’s what, that’s how you’ve done it, right? You just keep throwing it into a drawer. You keep putting it into a cabinet, you keep putting it into your closet, right? Closet gets
Chris Gazdik: pretty nasty and
Neil Robinson: it just, just builds up, builds up, builds up.
So it does to me, get a bigger
Chris Gazdik: closet. You can get a bigger closet. You could also use alcohol to condense [00:41:00] things and make it into a smaller space. But those strategies have an end, and you know what the end is. Yeah, probably a inpatient hospitalization for mental health stay. Yeah. Get a, or just start
Adam Cloninger: forgetting where everything is and then you don’t remember what you’re mad about.
Chris Gazdik: Well, if you get to the point of stage of life, you have to mention like losing the keys and everything. Yeah. Start losing your keys. Yikes. No, Neil, I think you’re absolutely on point with the process. You know, it, it, it, it does build up and, and, and it, it, it, I mean, the classic example is the bottleneck, you know, where you just shake the bottle and it, you know, and, and stuff, stuff in the bottle.
And then when it comes out it just explodes out.
Neil Robinson: Right. And, and I think the hardest part, ’cause when we talk about, it’s about the survivor mode, right? Because sometimes you have it to where, in the same analogy, what if it’s your room? But people are putting their crap in it.
Adam Cloninger: Oh, ooh. That’s a whole nother thing, you know, big time because you’re
Neil Robinson: thinking about survivor mode.
You’re just taking like, [00:42:00] oh look, so and so just dumped something in. Lemme just throw it in the closet. Oh. But they don’t wanna deal with it. Right.
Adam Cloninger: Okay. That’s anger that comes out when Adam’s getting pissed off. Yeah. That, oh, Adam’s getting upset. I hate that he got
Chris Gazdik: upset last time we were talking about parenting with his kids and now he’s getting upset about Yeah.
And I, what? I don’t know. I
Adam Cloninger: gotta tell you, I zoned out on that, that, ’cause I kept on thinking about stuff my kids had done. I’m like, it really did
Chris Gazdik: bother you didn’t, it did. Sounds like out during that conversation. I did. I Y’all were
Adam Cloninger: talking, I was thinking, oh god man, she pissed me off when she did that.
Chris said, were talking, I didn’t here what he said, so,
Chris Gazdik: and now it’s happening again. Yeah. Because other people are putting stuff in your closets. Yeah.
Neil Robinson: No, in his room. Just in the, just And then he SVEs in the room. He shoves it into the closet ’cause he doesn’t wanna deal with it.
Chris Gazdik: Gotcha. You know, in a way, Neil, that is kind of a thing.
I, we really haven’t thought about it that way. But when you, when you think about codependent people. They really do take on a lot of the energy of the people they’re codependent with and, and store their crap in their compartments. They’re, they’re taking on [00:43:00] all of that energy. You might say. People say, Hey, I’m an empath, but there’s, there’s, there’s destructive things that kind of go into that.
And then also when you’re not a willing partner, but another way that that happens, like if you’re Neil projecting onto me, meaning you have stuff from daddy issues or whatever, and you see me as, you know, having those issues, it’s that I don’t really, it’s just coming from your dad. That’s the most basic I can describe projection.
You’re putting that on me, which then I have to deal with if we’re really close to each other in some like closer relationship, especially marriage. Well, I mean, I mean, mean, think about it. So it’s a lot.
Neil Robinson: You have all this baggage, you’ve cleaned your room, right? You put in this closet that’s about to bust.
You get this other person in there and they, you start talking about something. So you go, you, they have, you go where you start going to the closet to pull something out,
Adam Cloninger: pull some of the baggage out, and what, what
Neil Robinson: happens when you open that door because they’ve said something or you’ve started something.
What happens when you pull that bottom thing out or you open that door that’s pulsing, [00:44:00] all that crap comes out on top of them. That’s that trigger, right? You have all this stuff in there and when that person comes along and they try to get that one piece out mm-hmm. Either one, you can’t find it ’cause there’s all this other crap on top of it or Yeah.
They,
Chris Gazdik: they, they say like, don’t bleed out on your friends or your family or your supports because your emotion will bleed out.
Neil Robinson: Right.
Chris Gazdik: You know, and, and, and Casey used to say that a lot and that is really true. You know, I mean, that’s why you wanna really deal with your own crap so that when you’re interacting, you know, you’re not throwing your emotional hurt all over the other person that you’re, you know, engaging with it.
It can get, it can get pretty messy. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred percent. It can get pretty messy. So in the book, through a therapist’s eyes, re-understanding your. Emotions and becoming your best self. I, I I, I I, I like that we didn’t talk about this a whole lot in the show this week, but when you look at the dangers of numbing out and what we’re talking about with how we we engage that way think about this, right?
So. I took all of the chapters in that book and I whittled [00:45:00] it down and put it into as few categories as I could, and it came up with four. And these four areas, I think are pretty, pretty, kind of profound realities about, you know, these are foundational things that we want to do to be, you know, to have a bit of emotional wellness.
Adam, are you interested in what the four were? Say? Yes. Yes. Okay, thank you. They were so again, the, the chapters are all real therapy moments that were phrases and statements that I made and wrote down and then wrote about. So it’s like years and years doing therapy condensed down into these chapter moments, condensed again down into these four sections.
Like that’s what this is. So that’s why I know I created it, but I think it’s pretty cool. Value Self was one of them. Not in any order either. Focus points. Third is action points. And then the fourth is stop and reflect on emotions. Right? [00:46:00] Say the four again. So action points. Focus points, valuing yourself, and then stopping to reflect on emotion or emotional experience.
Like those are four areas. P, D, C, A, P, D. Huh? PD, CA.
Adam Cloninger: Mm-hmm. Plan, do, check, act.
Chris Gazdik: What does that, what are you
Adam Cloninger: saying? You plan something. You, you plan, you do. You check, you act, you check. Make sure it’s right. You make adjustments.
Chris Gazdik: That’s where you got out of value. Focus, action. And stop. Yeah. To reflect.
Adam Cloninger: Reflect.
That’s when you check it. Actions. When you do, you make, nevermind
Chris Gazdik: what? Where did you come up with the an acronym? The The pd. That’s
Adam Cloninger: a lean manufacturing terminology. Oh, for real. This is the
Chris Gazdik: engineering. Yeah.
Adam Cloninger: Okay, so it’s plan, do, check, act. That, that’s what I hear.
Chris Gazdik: Plan, do, check act is an engineering kind of thing.
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s a circle. It relates. Yeah. You always,
Adam Cloninger: I think that fits. [00:47:00] You plan something, you do something, you check, make sure it’s right. You act and okay, and, and then you just, it just is never ending cycle. That’s fascinating.
Chris Gazdik: I wanna have a longer conversation with you about that. Maybe,
Neil Robinson: maybe you should pass on into more of your teammates just saying,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, and sell the book.
Tell ’em this is this cool book where you can learn PDA, whatever, PDA, that’s the wrong kind of book. Yeah. I don’t know. But that particular one, stop and reflect on emotional experience to me is the antithesis of suppress your emotion. You know, don’t think about it, don’t have any vulnerability, show it, you know, just don’t, you know, it.
It’s, it’s that important because it’s so fundamental. It’s so fundamental. If you, if you let things just build up and never deal with them, they, they will just, they’ll end in a divorce. They’ll end in a, a violent act. They’ll, they’ll, it’ll just, it’ll come out in some really un nice way. Buying stuff you [00:48:00] can’t afford.
You know, alcohol troubles, health issues. It is a lot. Shall we transition to the last one? We talked about Gracious acceptance. What a weird combo word combo. What do you just hear with the word combo, Adam? Gracious Acceptance. Gracious acceptance.
Adam Cloninger: Well, I can imagine acceptance would be accepting whatever the condition is, but the gracious accept.
I don’t know what, what are you trying to talk about?
Chris Gazdik: It’s a weird combo, isn’t it? Yeah. What do you remember from that? Neil John and I talked about gracious acceptance with the three questions being how do I respond to situations that require me to accept something I don’t agree with or can’t control to?
What does gracious acceptance look like in relationships with others? And three, how can I practice acceptance without feeling like I’m giving up or compromising my values? So John and I talked about, you know, the [00:49:00] Serenity prayer and accepting things we cannot change, that sort of thing. Does that give you for refreshers?
Neil Robinson: No, it’s, I always, my stepmom, her mom was a kindergarten teacher and. They talk about you need to be gracious to people that are like at your house and stuff and yeah. You know, of course John comes across it from the seminary perspective and stuff like that. But like, yes, the Salt of the Earth guy, her, her idea was, you know, an example of being gracious is being nice or cordial to people even if you don’t want them there.
Okay. It was a really weird way to put it, but it was just that still like that standard. Right. And so that was the
Chris Gazdik: smirk you had on your. Yeah.
Neil Robinson: That’s, that’s, because that’s what I always think about when they were doing gracious acceptance, and I’m thinking about what this is about. It’s the same idea, you know, being nice or cordial people, even though you don’t want to accept what’s going on.
Right. It’s that same kind of idea through this process. ’cause when you talk about gracious acceptance, it’s this person’s making poor life choices and you’re trying to help them, but you can only do so much in the process. Right. It’s still their choices, their decisions, and it’s still one of those things.
You have to, you know, figure out what that balance is about. How far do you step [00:50:00] invol, get involved, how far do you like it’s, and then how do you, like, it’s just, it’s such a messy, it is very
Chris Gazdik: messy. And, and, and you’re right. I I, I didn’t, that’s cool. I, I think you’re, you’re right on point with the way you said grandma, right.
Used to think about it. Yeah. Was, yeah. You know, because this month was a little bit of a substance abuse theme kind of, but not totally with the survivor mode is a, definitely originated in substance abuse world. Alcohol use disorder did as well. And this gracious acceptance thing could, it was, was, was the genesis of this month’s shows, because there was a provocative thought that actually came across my mind that I’ve dealt with in therapy, just accepting a person in our life that’s struggling with addiction.
Like they’re sober. They’re not sober, they’re destroying our lives. They’re, they’re, they’re driving to kids around drunk. Like, that’s not okay. Like, what are we doing? How do we cope? Should I just kick them to the curb? Like, how do you deal with this? And then the same thing with you know, your child, you know, it’s one of the most, oh God, it’s, it’s one of the most gut wrenching and, and, and [00:51:00] tormenting things that I deal with in therapy, honestly, is a parent to a child that is acting with alcohol, drug addictions.
I mean, are, you know, people would just say, well, well, you have to kick them out. And, and, and, and a parent is looking at that like, yeah, how, how do I kick my child out to the street? You know, it, it’s such a gut wrenching. Reality to, to, to try to traverse. And, and so the, that graciously accepting do we accept or do we not accept?
Do we confront, how do you manage it? Is sort of the genesis of all that, in my mind. It’s, it’s hard.
Neil Robinson: I mean, Adam, do you graciously accept everything your children do on a regular basis? You gotta piss ’em off again. I know. I’m trying to.
Adam Cloninger: No,
Neil Robinson: and that, and I think that’s really the weird balance, right? When you deal with, with adults, when, when you, but do
Chris Gazdik: you accept your kid?
Of
Neil Robinson: course.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. So you have to graciously accept them when they’ve done things wrong.
Adam Cloninger: So you, oh, you gotta see on YouTube the [00:52:00] facial expressions just went
Chris Gazdik: all over the place. So you’re
Adam Cloninger: saying I have to be nice when they do something wrong. I didn’t
Chris Gazdik: say nice. And
Adam Cloninger: that’s an interesting word. See, I’m going by his analogy. You Well, yeah. Cordial
Chris Gazdik: the grandma. Yeah. Do I have to be cordial
Adam Cloninger: to my kids when I do something wrong?
Chris Gazdik: No. No. But you have to make decisions about when they can be there and when they can’t be there. Yeah. And it’s such a dramatic thing, such as addiction. Yeah. And that’s the rough thing, you know? And honestly, the way that I’ve land guys listening, if you are in this situation, it really is. It’s one of the most difficult things to, to deal with.
And my landing spot is that it is reasonable to unconditionally and always provide for your child. Yes. The 45-year-old creepy guy, still living with his parents, it is reasonable to provide only shelter. And food for, for survival for, for your child.
Neil Robinson: But, but what happens, or
Chris Gazdik: also, let me finish ’cause it’s very important that I say the other side of that equation is [00:53:00] it’s also reasonably to not provide those things.
And, and, and, and there isn’t any right or wrong on either side of that. That’s the main, that’s the main point.
Neil Robinson: Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m triggered right now ’cause I talked to you last time about, well we’re dealing with some stuff right now with some other things, but you know, the question is, where does the line draw?
Like I said, obviously the parent wants their kid to not have to do things, you know, they, they want to help their kid live, right? Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Like literally the, but,
Neil Robinson: but then what happens when the parent goes away and, and now it’s other people’s in the other people’s responsibility in the family. How does that fit into the equation when the parent’s, like, I really want you still to take care of this person.
But they’re not your child. How do you, how do you get to that point when you have someone who’s not really a part of it anymore?
Chris Gazdik: Meaning, I’m not your dad. Right? But your dad is close to me and I’m, I’m supporting you from your dad’s wish. Right? And it’s, it’s a really interesting question. And, and you know what, we do see that a lot of times we, you know, with [00:54:00] grandparents, grandparents are taking care of raising the kids way too often.
And it, but, but it is a, it is an interesting point, Neil and I, and I think honestly the way that I would land on it is the same. Is, is reasonable to follow through with providing just those two things If you’re that committed to, you know, supporting their parent and their wishes for their kid, but it’s also reasonable to say no.
Neil Robinson: I, I think the other thing to think about too is where, where does it put you in, in the risk factor too, right? Oh, big time. You know, if, if it comes down to it where, oh, that’s the thing, right? That’s the question. Right? When it comes down to if you’re supporting someone and you make, so if you hurt yourself.
To help this other person where they’re not gonna help themselves. To me, that’s when it’s reasonable to say, no, I can’t.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Well, that’s a problem. And understand also, when we say only shelter for the purpose of survival coupled with food, we’re not talking about preferential food. We’re not saying, Hey, I know that you like pasta, so we’re [00:55:00] gonna make sure we get pasta.
I like pasta. This is like, I don’t care if you give them like straight oatmeal mush and that’s all they get. And they can stay with, you know, you in the outbuilding, you know, in, I literally have somebody that, that is allowing them to stay on their property in a, in a tent. You know, their, their child has been remanded to, you know, the tent on their property for their, out from the house.
And it’s because of this issue. It’s because like, you know, we, you cannot continue to behave the way that you’re behaving. So, but that’s really, really hard because when your kid is there, you’re giving them $5 for cigarettes, you’re giving them gas money, you’re paying for this and, and that. And then they start taking
Neil Robinson: advantage of it by being like, well, I don’t really like oatmeal.
Can I, can I get some? Right, right. Can I get pasta? Well, hey, now can I get a steak? It’s a mess. Hey, can we go get bar like I’ve, and that’s the point. Can we go get bourbon? Is that
Chris Gazdik: what he
Neil Robinson: said?
Chris Gazdik: Barbecue? I’ll,
Neil Robinson: I’ll stick with the food. But that means, Adam, if you really need to, you can kick your daughter out and put her in a tent in the backyard.
It perfectly fine. Yeah. By the, she doesn’t clean her room, just so you [00:56:00] know. By the, by
Chris Gazdik: the, by the pecan tree or what do you have? Walnuts. Its pe Pecans. Pecans. Pecans. Yeah. Yeah. Put her in the pecan tree. Put her in a tree house. She can go.
Neil Robinson: And, and I think, I think the key, you have to, you do have to look at it, is that it goes back to looking at what you can’t control, what you can’t control.
Once, once your child becomes of age. Or your, you know, spouse is an adult, right? You have to figure out what that balance is to where they, they want to help themselves and how much you can help them through that thing. Right. You just talked about the Serenity prayer. Yeah. I talk about the Serenity prayer
Chris Gazdik: all the time.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference. And if you’re not really into religion, that’s fine. It can be very secular because those, those, those three lines derive like absolute brilliance with the wisdom to know the difference between the two.
It’s I, I talk about it in therapy like all the time. Not in a religious way, but just in a, this is what you can control. This is what you can’t control. I mean, you know, you wanna go mad, try to [00:57:00] control stuff you can’t control. Do I have another, do I have another bit of time? I’m not sure in the exact time to, to go through chapter 11 thing.
Neil Robinson: You have a few minutes? We have a few minutes. Okay. Yeah, it’s, we’re at 57.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Awesome. ’cause I started late. So one of the things that I thought was interesting too, about this show that we did, I was able to throw chapter 11 from Adam, what was the book name, through a therapist. Eyes Get Tested. I. On the, the new book, the
Adam Cloninger: old one.
Neil Robinson: Rediscovering Re-Understanding. Re-Understanding. Thank you. Yeah. I, Hey
Adam Cloninger: Chris. Chris, what’s the name of your book? I do that all the time. So re Understanding Becoming Your Best Self or something like that. Re Understanding
Chris Gazdik: Emotions of Becoming Your Best Self. Thanks for trying. I was close. You weren’t very, you were closer than he was.
I know, right? Well, the second one was the same. I was good for volume two. Anyway, chapter 11 is, the title is Accepting Things as part of your Emotional Growth. Do accept limitations, events and characteristics. Don’t resist and fight against what is true. That’s one of the real therapy moments that I had actually, I, I, I’m [00:58:00] misspeaking right now because I recently read this in session to somebody and they were really appreciative of that.
And that is Lisa’s phrase, actually. So yeah, so that wasn’t, it wasn’t even mine. Hers, I gotta give her full credit. Accepting things as part of your emotional growth. But it’s funny because. It goes along with this topic of gracious acceptance when you fight against things that you can’t control and, and, and it, it can just, it just makes you miserable and behave poorly.
And Adam, I have a wonderful example of this that I shared in chapter 11 of through a therapist size, interested in the story. Yes, please. Yes. Thank you. I’ve done that twice now. He’s doing so well, so long ago when I was a teenager, Adam, you don’t know this story. I haven’t really talked about it with you, I don’t think.
Oh, well neither of you, for that matter. I I, I lived in West Virginia and this was a particular snowy night. I didn’t even put that in the book when I wrote [00:59:00] about this example, but it was one of these, one of these girls, Angie, I mean, I had, I had, she was, everyone had a crush on me. She was like, cute as hell and whatever.
So I, I took her out on sort of like a date, right? I even found a necklace on the ground that evening at the place that I worked. It was called the Wilson’s Lodge. It was like a a, a resort rest restaurant slash hotel resort stay. And so we’re just hanging out that whole evening and Oh, I got you.
You guys have both received, I’m sure, before I got the friendship speech. Have you got the friendship speech, Adam?
Adam Cloninger: Not
Chris Gazdik: really.
Adam Cloninger: What.
Chris Gazdik: You are so full of shit right now.
Neil Robinson: I mean, look at him. Come on. You think he, he’d get the friendship speech.
Chris Gazdik: I am looking at him, Neil, and I’m dang sure he’s gotten the friendship speech before.
In fact, probably repressing the experiences that he had this week. That must
Adam Cloninger: be what it is. He’s numbing now. I think you’re suppressing that. Numbed out.
Chris Gazdik: I’m numb. Yeah. Yeah. You are numbed out. You know the friendship speech, you’re interested in a girl you hook, you wanting to hook [01:00:00] up with her and talk to her or whatever.
And she just says, oh, you know, we’re good friends, whatever. So I drove her home and on the way home, man, I was just, I was not in a right mind. I wasn’t in a great way. I was pissed off. I was like so front, like just crushed. I mean, that’s why they called it a crush, right? So I took a turn going down this road and, you know, spun, you know, overcorrected, you know, fishtailed back down into a steep curve and it was just like.
I could’ve died that night. It was just so bad. ’cause I wasn’t paying attention to the road. I wasn’t paying attention to driving, and the roads were ridiculous anyway. I really needed to be careful. You’re
Adam Cloninger: thinking about what she had said earlier. Oh, I
Chris Gazdik: was totally replaying the night, totally replaying the night.
Like, you know, not, not accepting that this was like, you know, I don’t get the girl, don’t get the girl this time. And I was fighting that. So that’s a simple little example of how when you’re fighting something, you’re not accepting something. You’re not gonna be in the right mind. You’re not gonna be [01:01:00] doing what you need to be doing.
And you might have a car wreck as a result, at least in my circumstance.
Neil Robinson: So sometimes metaphorically. Sometimes. Literally.
Chris Gazdik: Sometimes. Literally. Mm-hmm. Yes. Alright. I think that that kind of covers the three shows that we did in March. Closing thoughts, comments? What did we miss? Neil? We doing a good job.
Yeah, characterizing what we talked about, I guess it was Neil or, I mean John and I alone twice. We gotta get onto to Victoria about that.
Neil Robinson: Yeah. Part of it was my fault because of my schedule. Oh, that’s, I had to, you were, I had something on Thursday that you were guilty and, oh, Adam, I need to show you had to be the producer, so if I ever have to not be here, they don’t have to reschedule.
So just keep that in mind.
Adam Cloninger: They had to reschedule ’cause you couldn’t be here. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. We had to get computer stuff organized. Yeah.
Adam Cloninger: So they just s warn you here so much. That’s what it was.
Neil Robinson: Yeah. No, I mean, no, I actually, I like this month, I like, I like the, I love the fact that you’re changing this to where you kind have this, the, these three episodes that govern different times.
Sort of the, so I, I’ve [01:02:00] really been enjoying that the last few months. And I think you hit a lot of the different things with, you know, the survivor mode and the numbing out. You know, the Graces acceptance for when you’re on the other side, like, I think it’s, I thought these shows were really, really good.
I, I’m with you. The alcohol use disorder is kinda, it’s terrible. I, I don’t know, makes it harder to diagnose, harder to really help someone, maybe not even diagnose, but harder to help someone when we makes it easier
Chris Gazdik: to diagnose. ’cause you can diagnose anybody with alcohol use disorder that out uses alcohol.
Stupidly
Neil Robinson: hurt foot disorder is what was calling her
Chris Gazdik: foot hurt, foot disorder. Anybody who’s had foot pain. Yeah. It’s just, it’s frustrating. Exactly.
Neil Robinson: So, yeah, I think it was good. I, I like shows hf,
Adam Cloninger: HFD.
Neil Robinson: Yeah. HFD.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Have HFD. That sounds like a sexually transmitted disease. Adam. I don’t know.
Neil Robinson: PDCA
Chris Gazdik: or just PDA.
Neil Robinson: You get your HFD with your PDCA. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: All right. Well thanks for that Neil. I appreciate you being here. Adam k clowning or anything to say as we get outta here. Yeah, appreciate you coming out and hanging out guys. We [01:03:00] are going in some different directions next week. I think I kind of designed well.
I’m just gonna leave it as a mystery ’cause I, there’s some things I need to work out. But hopefully one of them will be talking about psychotropic medications. That’ll be an interesting gig. But stay, well, stay tuned and we will see you guys all next week.